Lachmann played Grixis at my PTQ and got 11th. I still recommend faeries but If i had your choice in your shoes, i would play grixis.
I'm inclined to agree here.
Cards like BSA might allow you to steal games from aggro, but the removal suite in grixis forces aggro in the position to need to steal the games from you.
So what are the best cards in Grixis against *good* burn / mono-red players ? We don't have any Kor Firewalker, any Baneslayer Angel, any Wall Of Reverence...
You mean nighthawk eats searing blazes in game one. They hardly have a good reason to leave it in for games two and three (if we're talking about *good* players as you say). Mana leak and spot removal are all good here. I don't think that you really need any sort of life gain outside of ultimatum and nighthawk. If you test the matchup and find that you're struggling then by all means add some sorin or engine action, but I don't believe it to be necessary.
For me the upside of Grixis is mostly in the amount of discard they run MD. Perhaps 5C might also be benefited by simply moving some discard MD? The biggest problem is that the manabase does not allow the consistant turn 1 discard as it does in Grixis, which seems like a major drawback. If you are on the draw, you can't discard away their turn 2 play. With Stoneforge, this isn't a huge problem since you can still steal the sword and there are many powerful 3 drops to take atm.
The bigger issue seems to be that if you are on the draw, then they resolve their turn 2 play before you hit your first untapped land to play a discard spell.
The adv of 5C over Grixis is white. Esper Charm is flexible and powerful. Baneslayer is a house against aggro. Bant Charm holds a very unique and relevant place in the meta right now. Access to Path, Wall of Reverence, Day of Judgment, Sunblast Angel, Runed Halo, Condemn, and Leyline of Sanctity are also pretty relevant. There are many ways to build 5C, but white certainly has some nice tools to share.
The adv of 5C over Grixis is white. Esper Charm is flexible and powerful. Baneslayer is a house against aggro. Bant Charm holds a very unique and relevant place in the meta right now. Access to Path, Wall of Reverence, Day of Judgment, Sunblast Angel, Runed Halo, Condemn, and Leyline of Sanctity are also pretty relevant. There are many ways to build 5C, but white certainly has some nice tools to share.
White is what 4cc has over Grixis, but how does G help the 5cc decks?
White is what 4cc has over Grixis, but how does G help the 5cc decks?
Critique my list
If you ran green for anything it would be for Stag and/or Bant Charm. 4C basically has the same manabase as 5C so the names are used interchangeably for the most part - with 5C being more common due to its initial popularity while in standard.
As far as your list is concerned, I would make room for 2 more Cryptic Commands and possibly the 4th JTMS. The 3rd Zenith is the first easy cut since you are already running 4 Fallout with spot removal.
I would definitely advocate playing Grixis over 4C at this point in the format. You can't afford to be losing games to your mana-base w/such powerful decks. Faeries and UW each have a t2 play that sets up their deck for the rest of the game and having even 2 CIPT lands in your first 4 is something that just won't allow you to compete in the first 4-5 turns the way you need to.
Inquisition and Thoughtseize are also viable w/a 3 colour mana-base.
I think the Plumeveil/Wall of Reverence combo is still pretty good at the moment. Although it doesn't do much for you against Scapeshift, it handles Faeries, aggro (heard a lot of rdw/boros going around the paper ptqs), and a Sword on a 1 powered dooder pretty well.
Actually the grixis mana base seems better at first sight but isn't that much better than 5cc's. Sure you have a lot more lands for your turn 1 plays, but after that you have a lot of CIPT lands starting on the 4th turn, which is really bad from me.
I tested both against UW and Faeries, and Esper Charm, Path to Exile, Baneslayer Angel are way too good to no play them. I would even dare to say that you can't really compete without Esper Charm, but maybe hat's just me.
Oh also, Wall Of Denial is decent right now, it block Sword of Feast and Famine all day.
UW are faeries are both positive in favor of grixis. I don't know what your testing process is but methinks it may be flawed.
Honnestly my opinion is that the surprise factor helps grixis a lot in these MU (especially Faeries), even more than it helps 5cc.
But you're right, I didn't test Grixis very much. Only 2 matchs against a random Faeries player, 3-4 matches against mono red and 5 matches against my testing partner playing UW Mystic. The results didn't please me (1-1 against Faeries, 1-3 against mono red, and 1-4 against UW if I recall correctly), and I didn't like the options the deck gave me without white, so I switched back to 5cc, and the results were much better.
Maybe I simply know how to play 5cc better or had better draws, but it has so much more raw power IMO. (And also I wanted to be able to run Kor Firewalker in SB).
But anyways if you prefer Grixis over 5cc because it's faster I can totally understand. I just personnally feel that it's underpowered in the long run. (especially if you can't land a Jace)
I would have to agree with you Blad, white is just better thus playing 4cc over grixis is the better call.
From my testing with Grixis, I get screwed much more often with Grixis than 5C. With Grixis, sometimes you draw a ton of filters and get bottlenecked on choosing to play a spell or hold up cryptic. Sometimes you draw straight Scars duals in the midgame and it feels like you may as well be playing Vivids for as slow as they are. Sometimes you want to drop a Nighthawk early, but you don't have right filter so you can't.
While the 5C manabase can be cumbersome, I don't see it as horrid. It can be a bit slow, but it is consistant and stable most of the time. I would rather be a bit slower and play more powerful spells then have faster mana on turns 1-3, but have less powerful spells, especially when there are several keepable hands that you have to keep, but wish had discard in them.
From my testing with Grixis, I get screwed much more often with Grixis than 5C. With Grixis, sometimes you draw a ton of filters and get bottlenecked on choosing to play a spell or hold up cryptic. Sometimes you draw straight Scars duals in the midgame and it feels like you may as well be playing Vivids for as slow as they are. Sometimes you want to drop a Nighthawk early, but you don't have right filter so you can't.
While the 5C manabase can be cumbersome, I don't see it as horrid. It can be a bit slow, but it is consistant and stable most of the time. I would rather be a bit slower and play more powerful spells then have faster mana on turns 1-3, but have less powerful spells, especially when there are several keepable hands that you have to keep, but wish had discard in them.
Care to share your list? I don't think anyone's posted a 4 or 5 cc list in over a month
Why did the Grixis thread here die? Grixis is a very valid choice IMO, especially now with Glissa and other options, plus the way the meta is shifting
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I'm inclined to agree here.
Cards like BSA might allow you to steal games from aggro, but the removal suite in grixis forces aggro in the position to need to steal the games from you.
You mean nighthawk eats searing blazes in game one. They hardly have a good reason to leave it in for games two and three (if we're talking about *good* players as you say). Mana leak and spot removal are all good here. I don't think that you really need any sort of life gain outside of ultimatum and nighthawk. If you test the matchup and find that you're struggling then by all means add some sorin or engine action, but I don't believe it to be necessary.
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What list are you running Blad?
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I'm working on a Grixis list. I am thinking:
2 Inferno Titan
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Preordain
4 Thoughtseize
2 IoK
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Leak
3 Go For the Throat
4 Volcanic Fallout
3 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Cryptic Command
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Creeping Tar Pits
2 Cascade Bluffs
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Graven Cairins
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
I want to justify more than 2 CC, but I dont know if I can pay for it.
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White is what 4cc has over Grixis, but how does G help the 5cc decks?
Critique my list
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If you ran green for anything it would be for Stag and/or Bant Charm. 4C basically has the same manabase as 5C so the names are used interchangeably for the most part - with 5C being more common due to its initial popularity while in standard.
As far as your list is concerned, I would make room for 2 more Cryptic Commands and possibly the 4th JTMS. The 3rd Zenith is the first easy cut since you are already running 4 Fallout with spot removal.
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Inquisition and Thoughtseize are also viable w/a 3 colour mana-base.
-TEAM REVOLUTION
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UW are faeries are both positive in favor of grixis. I don't know what your testing process is but methinks it may be flawed.
I would have to agree with you Blad, white is just better thus playing 4cc over grixis is the better call.
I'll agree that White is a boss, but the 4th color worries me do your just ignore the fact you have a horrid mana base or what?
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While the 5C manabase can be cumbersome, I don't see it as horrid. It can be a bit slow, but it is consistant and stable most of the time. I would rather be a bit slower and play more powerful spells then have faster mana on turns 1-3, but have less powerful spells, especially when there are several keepable hands that you have to keep, but wish had discard in them.
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Care to share your list? I don't think anyone's posted a 4 or 5 cc list in over a month
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