Your list is okay, but it could do with a lot of tweaking. For starters, you need Volcanic Fallout to deal with Faeries. It's also good against most aggro decks. Vampire Nighthawk is terrible. I'm assuming you saw Kitchen Finks and thought of it as a replacement, but it's nowhere near close: Kitchen Finks doesn't die. That was the WHOLE POINT.
Why on earth are you playing baby Jace? Big Jace is so much better here it isn't even worth comparing. And Broodmate Dragon is very outdated. An appropriate finisher is worth another discussion, as anything from Baneslayer, to Iona, to Sphinx of Jwar Isle could be argued. Even Skithiryx is worth considering, for the fast clock. But I really wouldn't run Broodmate; it certainly isn't worth playing the fifth colour for, especially sans Maelstrom Pulse.
Your manabase could do with a bit of work too. Definitely cut the Vivid Groves, even in this build - the green splash is very light, and you can always get the green off another Vivid/Pool. You need 4 Vivid Creeks too, and at least a few Islands go a long way if you get pathed.
There is also some new tech to consider now, with Scars out. A Trinket Mage package would be awesome (Brittle Effigy, maybe Executioner's Capsule, Pithing Needle, Chimeric Mass, maybe Horizon Spellbomb, Relic of Progenitus). And stuff like Wurmcoil Engine, Precursor Golem, Volition Reins, Elspeth II, Venser, Sunblast Angel, etc.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Grave Titan is a great replacement to Broodmate, much better imho. Wurmcoil Engine is a really good card also, but probably better on standard since extended has path to exile to deal with.
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Grave Titan is a great replacement to Broodmate, much better imho. Wurmcoil Engine is a really good card also, but probably better on standard since extended has path to exile to deal with.
The glaring problem with Grave Titan is simply the lack of evasion. Broodmate ends the game in three swings if unanswered, but half survives any removal spell. If they kill your Grave Titan, you end up with a pair of 2/2 Zombies. Not bad, but nowhere near as good as a 4/4 Flyer. If unanswered, Grave Titan kills in two turns, but that easily balloons to four or five when you consider it is easily chump-blocked.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Grave Titan is easily the best finisher for this deck.
Why do you say that? As far as I can see (with my very limited opportunities to test much), Grave Titan isn't that great. It's by no means bad, just not necessarily as good as Skithiryx, Iona or something else. If you have reasoning or testing to back it up, feel free to make me look like an idiot. But just saying that it's better doesn't make it true.
Other than that, nice list. How's it been going without Mulldrifters? And why Smother over the 3rd Path?
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
The way I see it, the finisher for the deck needs to be something that still gives your board presence if removed (Grave Titan, Broodmate) or is neigh-impossible to race (Baneslayer)
The thing is you prly aren't going to drop Grave Titan unless you have cleared the board and are ready to win, so having 4 power across 2 bodies as opposed to 4 power across 1 body is negligible. Also, if you are behind and need some room to buffer, you can always play Grave Titan and create 3 blockers instead of just two.
Grave Titan also offers you the ability to race your opponent in the way that Baneslayer can. If you swing with the Titan, you create chump blockers, and each time you swing for 6, you create more blockers. It makes it tough for your opponent to race you, as opposed to Broodmate where I have been outraced before.
Finally, Grave Titan has the benefit of being able to attack into a Baneslayer Angel.
Mulldrifter I do not miss. Wall of Omens, Jace, and Esper Charm provide plenty of draw for the deck. Plus, I don't find tapping out to draw 2 cards on my turn is beneficial. Mulldrifter is def one of my favorite cards, but there are better options now.
The Smother is just personal preference. I don't like giving away a land with Path but it is needed never the less. I might just change it to a 3rd Path.
I don't see how someone can race Skithiryx. He(she?)'s a 3 turn clock and essentially impossible to answer outside of Path. In addition, he's a monster on the battlefield and able to shrink anyone except BSA, which you can answer with Path, DoJ and Cruel Ultimatum without losing Skikthiryx.
I like Skittles, but also you are dealing damage through Cruel/Elspeth/Creeping Tar Pit + your opponent is also dealing themselves damage with Bitterblossom and Thoughseize and I feel like by playing Skittles you are being counter productive.
I like Skittles, but also you are dealing damage through Cruel/Elspeth/Creeping Tar Pit + your opponent is also dealing themselves damage with Bitterblossom and Thoughseize and I feel like by playing Skittles you are being counter productive.
What if you aren't playing against Faeries? With Kitchen Finks floating around, people can keep up their life totals. Skittles seems like a fine play, especially because it get in two turns with Elspeth.
What if you aren't playing against Faeries? With Kitchen Finks floating around, people can keep up their life totals. Skittles seems like a fine play, especially because it get in two turns with Elspeth.
But Cruel Ultimatum loses them life too! Skittles is good, but you're limiting yourself to a three-turn clock. And the fact that he sucks vs Baneslayer ... the regen ability pretty good though. As long as you have BB up, only Path deals with him, which is pretty good. I'm undecided ATM.
What about Iona? No more than a two-of, and supplemented by 'Slayer or something, she's pretty insane against anything but the mirror. Not only is she very tough to kill, she locks out half their deck!
And how many Cruel Ultimatums is optimal now? Towards the end of LOR-M10-ARB people were playing up to 4. I normally play 3, but the lists here recently have run 2. Are you drawing it consistently enough? Do you ever feel you want multiples?
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I think 2 is enough between the draw power of Wall of Omens, Jace, and Esper Charm. You never really want to see multiple Cruel in the early game and you should only ever need 2 at the most to put someone away.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
About baby jace vs. big jace...i'm not the kind of guy who likes to spend $50+ on a single card, it just sounds insane to me. so it's just a wallet choice.
About kitchen finks vs. Nighthawk...Kitchen fetchs you 2 life and don't die to a single day/bolt/terminate/blah... but, combat-wise talking, nighthawk can block bitterblossom tokens, fetchs you life and can destroy a strong creature by blocking it.
For finishers...i wouldn't run skittles, he could wins you games but he could wrack other games....Suppose you have an opponent at 4 life, with almost no creatures with evasion and no poison counters, would you rather draw a broodmate or a skithyrix ? (to tell the truth i'd rather draw a hellkite overlord just for the haste).
For me Cruel Control can have almost any finisher it wishes, but i personally like a lot from sphinx of jwar isle (because of shroud), Baneslayer Angel (fetchs you life and is a must-be answered), broodmate dragon (6 mana for 2 4/4), Grave Titan (but it lacks evasion)..and from SOM, i liked Wurmcoil Engine but it lacks evasion too.
Also, my friend's deck ran 2 Primal Command and it showed itself to be very useful (fetched me life against more agressive decks as i searched for a creature to protect me, or saved me from taking an Venser's Emblem). What do you guys think? it's worth running it?
About baby jace vs. big jace...i'm not the kind of guy who likes to spend $50+ on a single card, it just sounds insane to me. so it's just a wallet choice.
Fair enough. I do have a confession to make, though: I'm likely never going to make the list I presented. That's what I use on Lackey, I'm a budget player in real life. But I did get two Jaces (traded at prerelease, then cracked one from a pair of WWK packs :o)
About kitchen finks vs. Nighthawk...Kitchen fetchs you 2 life and don't die to a single day/bolt/terminate/blah... but, combat-wise talking, nighthawk can block bitterblossom tokens, fetchs you life and can destroy a strong creature by blocking it.
Yes, but Nighthawk lifegain is more situational (they can just kill it before combat). So really it's Persist vs Deathtouch. The main thing is that you still get something even if they do kill Finks, even if only once (Path, Magma Spray), whereas Nighthawk does nothing. Finks is better in almost every single context. Control? Persist and 3-power. Red? Gains more life and doesn't die to burn. White Weenie? Probably about equal, except Finks gains 2 if they Path it. Doran? About the same. Finks effectively 'gains' more through blocking twice, but Nighthawk has flying & deathtouch. I stand by Finks as superior, but still unnecessary. But I wouldn't disagree if you ran it.
For finishers...i wouldn't run skittles, he could wins you games but he could wrack other games....Suppose you have an opponent at 4 life, with almost no creatures with evasion and no poison counters, would you rather draw a broodmate or a skithyrix ? (to tell the truth i'd rather draw a hellkite overlord just for the haste).
For me Cruel Control can have almost any finisher it wishes, but i personally like a lot from sphinx of jwar isle (because of shroud), Baneslayer Angel (fetchs you life and is a must-be answered), broodmate dragon (6 mana for 2 4/4), Grave Titan (but it lacks evasion)..and from SOM, i liked Wurmcoil Engine but it lacks evasion too.
Yes, but what if your opponent is on 20 life? Would you rather draw Skittles or Broodmate/Grave Titan? What if your opponent is playing Soul Sisters? Skittles is GUARANTEED to win if he hits 3 times. And whatever does block him is likely a withered piece of toast (see what I did there? :p).
Also, my friend's deck ran 2 Primal Command and it showed itself to be very useful (fetched me life against more agressive decks as i searched for a creature to protect me, or saved me from taking an Venser's Emblem). What do you guys think? it's worth running it?
I wouldn't play green just for it. But it is an interesting idea. It's likely no better than other alternatives (I would rather a Cryptic almost anywhere ;)) and you would also have to want Maelstrom Pulse - and possibly Broodmate - to even bother.
Very off topic: Has anyone clicked on the link below in my sig yet?
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Grave Titan > Broodmate/skittles. He creates immediate board pressure, aggro's through no matter what, and he can get you out of tight situations, when your low on life and need blockers. He plays offense and defense right from the start.
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I hate when people change their avatar's. That's how I identify most people, not by names.
I was thinking that Grave Titan may have a spot over Broodmate. 10 power for 6 mana is pretty excellent. Not to mention he can continue to crank out more zombies.
I've found Consume the meek to be a great card, a instant speed mass removal. Consuming Vapors has also been good out of the SB. I personally run 2 PTE and 1 Doom Blade. Agree with Elspeth, she has always been a amazing card. Wall of Omens I don't like because it competes with Mana Leak, sure you get a wall and draw a card but its dead vs faries and control decks.
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T2:
Modern R/ Boros W/ U/ Eldrazi-Post G/
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2x Vivid Crag
2x Vivid Marsh
2x Vivid Meadow
3x Vivid Creek
2x Cascade Bluffs
2x Sunken Ruins
3x Mystic Gate
4x Reflecting Pool
3x Mulldrifter
3x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Broodmate Dragon
2x Cruel Ultimatum
3x Path to Exile
3x Day of Judgement
3x Mana Leak
4x Esper Charm
4x Cryptic Command
I have been playtesting that list for some weeks and it have been showing nice results against a lot of decks.
What do u guys think?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Why on earth are you playing baby Jace? Big Jace is so much better here it isn't even worth comparing. And Broodmate Dragon is very outdated. An appropriate finisher is worth another discussion, as anything from Baneslayer, to Iona, to Sphinx of Jwar Isle could be argued. Even Skithiryx is worth considering, for the fast clock. But I really wouldn't run Broodmate; it certainly isn't worth playing the fifth colour for, especially sans Maelstrom Pulse.
Your manabase could do with a bit of work too. Definitely cut the Vivid Groves, even in this build - the green splash is very light, and you can always get the green off another Vivid/Pool. You need 4 Vivid Creeks too, and at least a few Islands go a long way if you get pathed.
There is also some new tech to consider now, with Scars out. A Trinket Mage package would be awesome (Brittle Effigy, maybe Executioner's Capsule, Pithing Needle, Chimeric Mass, maybe Horizon Spellbomb, Relic of Progenitus). And stuff like Wurmcoil Engine, Precursor Golem, Volition Reins, Elspeth II, Venser, Sunblast Angel, etc.
Finally, here is my personal, tentative list:
3 Mulldrifter
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Path to Exile
4 Mana Leak
4 Esper Charm
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Day of Judgment
4 Cryptic Command
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Vivid Marsh
3 Vivid Meadow
2 Vivid Crag
2 Mystic Gate
2 Sunken Ruins
3 Cascade Bluffs
2 Island
1 Exotic Orchard
I really want to find room for the third Jace, third Baneslayer and 27th land. What should I cut? I was thinking -1 Esper Charm, +1 Jace. Thoughts?
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URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
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The glaring problem with Grave Titan is simply the lack of evasion. Broodmate ends the game in three swings if unanswered, but half survives any removal spell. If they kill your Grave Titan, you end up with a pair of 2/2 Zombies. Not bad, but nowhere near as good as a 4/4 Flyer. If unanswered, Grave Titan kills in two turns, but that easily balloons to four or five when you consider it is easily chump-blocked.
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Retired decks:
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Here is my list:
4x Wall of Omens
3x Grave Titan
Spells(27)
4x Cryptic Command
4x Esper Charm
4x Mana Leak
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Volcanic Fallout
2x Cruel Ultimatum
2x Day of Judgment
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Path to Exile
1x Smother
4x Reflecting Pool
4x Vivid Creek
3x Vivid Marsh
3x Vivid Meadow
2x Cascade Bluffs
2x Island
2x Mystic Gate
2x Sunken Ruins
2x Vivid Crag
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Exotic Orchard
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Why do you say that? As far as I can see (with my very limited opportunities to test much), Grave Titan isn't that great. It's by no means bad, just not necessarily as good as Skithiryx, Iona or something else. If you have reasoning or testing to back it up, feel free to make me look like an idiot. But just saying that it's better doesn't make it true.
Other than that, nice list. How's it been going without Mulldrifters? And why Smother over the 3rd Path?
Domain Zoo
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Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
The thing is you prly aren't going to drop Grave Titan unless you have cleared the board and are ready to win, so having 4 power across 2 bodies as opposed to 4 power across 1 body is negligible. Also, if you are behind and need some room to buffer, you can always play Grave Titan and create 3 blockers instead of just two.
Grave Titan also offers you the ability to race your opponent in the way that Baneslayer can. If you swing with the Titan, you create chump blockers, and each time you swing for 6, you create more blockers. It makes it tough for your opponent to race you, as opposed to Broodmate where I have been outraced before.
Finally, Grave Titan has the benefit of being able to attack into a Baneslayer Angel.
Mulldrifter I do not miss. Wall of Omens, Jace, and Esper Charm provide plenty of draw for the deck. Plus, I don't find tapping out to draw 2 cards on my turn is beneficial. Mulldrifter is def one of my favorite cards, but there are better options now.
The Smother is just personal preference. I don't like giving away a land with Path but it is needed never the less. I might just change it to a 3rd Path.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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Sure you have your own removal, but that would work with ANY finisher, not just Skittles.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Actually, Skittles is the only win con that lives through DoJ and is able to battle Grave Titan and Wurmcoil Engine.
The inability to battle BSA is a big one...assuming she is played, which has not really the case.
Skittles seems more effective that a large number of other win cons. I would rather split between Grave Titan and Skittles.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
What if you aren't playing against Faeries? With Kitchen Finks floating around, people can keep up their life totals. Skittles seems like a fine play, especially because it get in two turns with Elspeth.
But Cruel Ultimatum loses them life too! Skittles is good, but you're limiting yourself to a three-turn clock. And the fact that he sucks vs Baneslayer ... the regen ability pretty good though. As long as you have BB up, only Path deals with him, which is pretty good. I'm undecided ATM.
What about Iona? No more than a two-of, and supplemented by 'Slayer or something, she's pretty insane against anything but the mirror. Not only is she very tough to kill, she locks out half their deck!
And how many Cruel Ultimatums is optimal now? Towards the end of LOR-M10-ARB people were playing up to 4. I normally play 3, but the lists here recently have run 2. Are you drawing it consistently enough? Do you ever feel you want multiples?
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
He's too slow for the mana he cost. He comes down 1 turn after Cruel would ANY he doesn't even ultimate for 2 more turns.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Agreed. I would rather the third Cruel, at least in the current format. Some people did play him in Lorwyn-Shards T2 though.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
About baby jace vs. big jace...i'm not the kind of guy who likes to spend $50+ on a single card, it just sounds insane to me. so it's just a wallet choice.
About kitchen finks vs. Nighthawk...Kitchen fetchs you 2 life and don't die to a single day/bolt/terminate/blah... but, combat-wise talking, nighthawk can block bitterblossom tokens, fetchs you life and can destroy a strong creature by blocking it.
For finishers...i wouldn't run skittles, he could wins you games but he could wrack other games....Suppose you have an opponent at 4 life, with almost no creatures with evasion and no poison counters, would you rather draw a broodmate or a skithyrix ? (to tell the truth i'd rather draw a hellkite overlord just for the haste).
For me Cruel Control can have almost any finisher it wishes, but i personally like a lot from sphinx of jwar isle (because of shroud), Baneslayer Angel (fetchs you life and is a must-be answered), broodmate dragon (6 mana for 2 4/4), Grave Titan (but it lacks evasion)..and from SOM, i liked Wurmcoil Engine but it lacks evasion too.
Also, my friend's deck ran 2 Primal Command and it showed itself to be very useful (fetched me life against more agressive decks as i searched for a creature to protect me, or saved me from taking an Venser's Emblem). What do you guys think? it's worth running it?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Fair enough. I do have a confession to make, though: I'm likely never going to make the list I presented. That's what I use on Lackey, I'm a budget player in real life. But I did get two Jaces (traded at prerelease, then cracked one from a pair of WWK packs :o)
Yes, but Nighthawk lifegain is more situational (they can just kill it before combat). So really it's Persist vs Deathtouch. The main thing is that you still get something even if they do kill Finks, even if only once (Path, Magma Spray), whereas Nighthawk does nothing. Finks is better in almost every single context. Control? Persist and 3-power. Red? Gains more life and doesn't die to burn. White Weenie? Probably about equal, except Finks gains 2 if they Path it. Doran? About the same. Finks effectively 'gains' more through blocking twice, but Nighthawk has flying & deathtouch. I stand by Finks as superior, but still unnecessary. But I wouldn't disagree if you ran it.
Yes, but what if your opponent is on 20 life? Would you rather draw Skittles or Broodmate/Grave Titan? What if your opponent is playing Soul Sisters? Skittles is GUARANTEED to win if he hits 3 times. And whatever does block him is likely a withered piece of toast (see what I did there? :p).
I wouldn't play green just for it. But it is an interesting idea. It's likely no better than other alternatives (I would rather a Cryptic almost anywhere ;)) and you would also have to want Maelstrom Pulse - and possibly Broodmate - to even bother.
Very off topic: Has anyone clicked on the link below in my sig yet?
|
\/
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Modern
R/ Boros W/
U/ Eldrazi-Post G/
Top 8'd:
2x Tcg Player Qualifiers
1x MWS Series Trial
Top'16:
PTQ Austin
PTQ Paris
Extended:
RIP
Legacy: Zoo
"I am the beast of America"
Props to Hakai Studios for the banner
Mimic Vat?
I hate when people change their avatar's. That's how I identify most people, not by names.
Modern
R/ Boros W/
U/ Eldrazi-Post G/
Top 8'd:
2x Tcg Player Qualifiers
1x MWS Series Trial
Top'16:
PTQ Austin
PTQ Paris
Extended:
RIP
Legacy: Zoo
"I am the beast of America"
Props to Hakai Studios for the banner
Modern
R/ Boros W/
U/ Eldrazi-Post G/
Top 8'd:
2x Tcg Player Qualifiers
1x MWS Series Trial
Top'16:
PTQ Austin
PTQ Paris
Extended:
RIP
Legacy: Zoo
"I am the beast of America"
Props to Hakai Studios for the banner