One of the main mistakes people make about this deck is thinking that its a RUG deck and has a shaky manabase which is not the case this deck is a UG scapeshift deck splashing a single mountain for firespout(plus against decks that u dont want spout against u board out the mountain for the tec edge in the sb) so the mana base is not rough at all its actually very consistent not even taking into account depths,ponder,preordain can help dig for g mana if needed.
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the relevation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P. Lovecraft
What about shifting the manabase a bit to include 2 mountains, or maybe just some U/R lands to allow firespout to be run more MD.
Also have been thinking about the sideboard, What do you guys think about the possiblity of having the pestermite/splinter twin combo in the sideboard? Seems like a fun idea after they side out all their creature hate....
^^ it seems ok i guess but the meta is more scapeshift and fae than anything else so i dont think md spout is needed and in my testing drawing the mountain in ur opener can be awkward already so i dont like the idea of adding more.
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"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the relevation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P. Lovecraft
Did the UG Val die out already? I haven't seen it in PTQ reports and I saw none of them at the Fort Worth PTQ. Is RG just better/faster in every situation?
Not sure why this post isn't seeing any replies at all. I think this deck is pretty good and is better then R/G in some matchups. From what I noticed, it does seem to have problems vs aggro decks that constantly kill on turn 4.
Also have been thinking about the sideboard, What do you guys think about the possiblity of having the pestermite/splinter twin combo in the sideboard? Seems like a fun idea after they side out all their creature hate....
Faerie players are starting to leave in hate specifically for susher. Peppersmoke gets sideboarded out but anything that can kill the 2/2 tends to stay in. The combo also takes an absurd amount of s/b space.
I don't know how much I like the plan vs. 5cc or U/W. U/W players who tap out are just going to die anyways. Thrun seems so much better vs. 5cc builds that are not running Wall of Omens.
I'm building it, waiting on prismatics in the mail as we speak... I think I'm going to try and do it with R/U filters instead of U/G filters... but I will probably cave at some point
A big problem that I have with this deck is that you need the prismatic along with scapeshift to win. The r/g version can win with out the prismatic since you have titan to go along with the scapeshift. Right there for me is a big selling point for the r/g version instead of this one. that is just my view on it though.
You don't need scapeshift to win. You can ramp and sit back on counters with an omen out. In some matchups you have to play the deck as a control deck with mana leaks, cryptics, spell pierces, etc.
3rd place finisher played with splinter twin combo main deck. Seems like a really cool theory and great to confuse opponents trying to hate out your deck.
It either lost to NAya or RG scapeshift. Id assume the RG deck as naya is usually a buy.
Bloodbraid elf seems wrong and you cant hit too many good spells. Hitting pestermite seems bad, rampant growth would be good, but everything else is just a blue cantrip. And running BBE makes you not able to run mana leak, which seems questionable.
It has no way to slow down the early game beats, and the only defense being slagstorm out of sideboard seems questionable. Double red seems like would be hard to consistently get to early when needed an early sweeper.
I am not criticizing this deck at all, seeing as ive never top 3ed a ptq, i have no room to judge. But would jusst like some feedback on my conclusions from the deck.
I'm actually playing R/G scapeshift with.....horrbile results most of the times
To quote the few posts above:
R/G has a more stable mana base but 0 drawing spells, and for this reason i lost count of the games i lost cos i didnt draw a a single titan/scapeshift...or the only 1 i had was countered.
UG(r), on the other hand, has a more stable late game strategy being able to stall the opponent with cryptic and "search" your deck for your finisher (onlt scapeshift in this case).
The problem of this deck is that it relies heavily on Omen. G/W decks now have qasali MD or SB, and in general there is a lot of enchatments/artifacts hate around cos of UW sword decks. So relying on an enchantment to win is pretty hard.
Recently i played vs a version of UG(r) a lot more solid.
Same list but with 10 mountains.
I'm trying it with 4 Pyroclasm and 2 firespot MD sicne basically every deck in extended format plays a lot of small creatures.
True, with 10 mountains we may have a mana base a bit more shaky but...with ponder x3/4 preordain x3/4 Halimar Depths x4 this shouldnt be an issue.
This allow the deck to work like a standard R/G Valakut with the added benefits of having the blue for Cryptic/draw spells.
As for fast aggro decks i stopped relying on a turn 4 kill to beat them with standard R/G build....it simply doesnt happen.....you cant just go to a big tournament, play vs 7-8 opponents and hope to win every aggro MU by turn 4. That is where the sideboard comes in (togheter with my 6 sweepers MD). And in this situation, both decks are equal.
20 dmg by turn 4-5 kill you with or without 6-7-8 lands in play if you cant win consistently by that time.
My friend and i both top 8ed the 3/19 Minneapolis PTQ with UGr. Its a strong deck but very difficult to play correctly, hence the reason you may not have seen results from ptqs. There are minor plays that one might not make which can make huge differences. I did notice a 3rd player playing for top 8 in the final round with UGr, but he lost. I would not suggest anyone play this deck at this point in the season unless you have a lot of time to test. But i do think it is one of the best deck in the format despite it not being played a whole lot. This is the first season i have ever played in a ptq and in 4 ptqs, i have finished 9th, 13th, 16th, and 5th. So with a skilled player you can do anything with the deck. Also im notsaying i am the best player of this deck ever. If i watch someone else play a game with the same deck i dont think i have ever told them that i agree with every play they made that game.
@soulgix do not play maindeck clasm. there is no need. game one you just want to bust them asap. Bring in the pyroclasms post board. I played with pyroclasm maindeck in fargo and it probably cost me the top 8. If you want to play the deck i suggest you get a lot of quality testing in against bant. It seems to be the only deck i am losing to, and only when they have an insane draw. (lost to bant in the top 8, triple pridemage double forgetender unified will is pretty much unbeatable).
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You always hear about the games armageddon wins 100% of the time. You never hear about the game that it rots in your hand and you get beatdown.
My friend and i both top 8ed the 3/19 Minneapolis PTQ with UGr. Its a strong deck but very difficult to play correctly, hence the reason you may not have seen results from ptqs. There are minor plays that one might not make which can make huge differences. I did notice a 3rd player playing for top 8 in the final round with UGr, but he lost. I would not suggest anyone play this deck at this point in the season unless you have a lot of time to test. But i do think it is one of the best deck in the format despite it not being played a whole lot. This is the first season i have ever played in a ptq and in 4 ptqs, i have finished 9th, 13th, 16th, and 5th. So with a skilled player you can do anything with the deck. Also im notsaying i am the best player of this deck ever. If i watch someone else play a game with the same deck i dont think i have ever told them that i agree with every play they made that game.
@soulgix do not play maindeck clasm. there is no need. game one you just want to bust them asap. Bring in the pyroclasms post board. I played with pyroclasm maindeck in fargo and it probably cost me the top 8. If you want to play the deck i suggest you get a lot of quality testing in against bant. It seems to be the only deck i am losing to, and only when they have an insane draw. (lost to bant in the top 8, triple pridemage double forgetender unified will is pretty much unbeatable).
well
removing pyro + spout give the deck a lot more stability for sure (i could replace them with rampant growth + mana leak) expecially with the mana base i'm using (10 mountains)
Problem is. How do i handle fast aggro decks? or even UW with stoneforge?
The deck is not very fast, so...how did you do it?
Against Bant and naya, I just use my 12 dig spells and cryptics to find the combo and hit them hard. You just have to learn how to play around pridemages which becomes easier and easier. In the top 8 i ran my omen into a pridemage when he had a fetch open, it resolved i played a fetchland and hit his pridemage with the valakut trigger, he fetches in response i fetch and kill his pridemage, and then cast scapeshift. I dont think it was a misplay on his part, just something very subtle that not a lot of people would notice(fetching in response to the omen). You cant do anything about their nut draw, so just let it be. But dont run your omens out unless you know they dont have pridemage, the only reason i did it was because i would have lost otherwise, treat it as a 6 mana sorcery speed combo. Keep an eye on how they tap. I have many times EOT tap their team bounce a land to have them with a pridemage in play with no open mana, then comboed them. In my 4 ptqs i have played against UW mystic 4 times and my record is 4-0(8-0 in games) i dont know how to lose this matchup, it feels like a cake walk, i just run circles around my opponents, if they spend time durdling with stoneforge you can ramp and get an omen down. and then just sit on counter magic and play lands. Bring in natures claims game 2 because i tell you what. Stoneforge mystic is a really bad threat without a sword. I also have tech edge to deal with manlands and my own vendilion cliques as a threat and to kill theirs.
This is the most recent list i played
4x misty rainforest
1x scalding tarn
4x island
3x forest
2x tectonic edge
4x flooded grove
1x mountain
4x valakut, the molten pinnacle
4x halimar depths
4x prismatic omen
4x explore
4x rampant growth
3x scapeshift
3x oracle of mul daya
The sideboard changes often but this is what i played
4x HEDRON CRAB (fae, mirror, any true control)
2x vendilion clique (mirror, GR scapeshift, UW mystic, Any true control)
2x spell pierce (UW mystic, Bantwarp, fae)
2x natures claim (UW mystic, mirror)
1x dispel (i dont know why i had this here it wasnt very good)
4x pyroclasm (Bant, elves, naya, and the like. Though i have thought about cutting it recently because they bring in bad creatures and lower their clock, so most the time id rather ramp instead).
Other cards that have been in my board:
Reality spasm
Primal command
Kitchen finks
Wurmcoil engine
Baloth
Firespout
Other cards i have considered
Inferno Titan
aether tradewinds
deprive
EDIT: dont play the Jway deck. you are screwing your manabase.
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You always hear about the games armageddon wins 100% of the time. You never hear about the game that it rots in your hand and you get beatdown.
ya, with 10 mountains my mana base is...death itself i know but.....without it....the only way to win is Omen + Scapeshift or omen + lands.
That is the main reason why i decided to go with standard r/g build till now.
The SB against an enhcantment card is...huge..considering ,more than half of the format is with green decks.
And i really hope no1 plays Though hemorrhage or memoricide or i'm dead
how do you handle that?
Game 1 i have no fear of enchantment hate unless i am playing against 5cc (which i havnt played against yet) or pridemages, which are easy enough to beat, its very easy to play around hate cards most the time. If you can read your opponent well you can win a lot with this deck. Game 2 and 3 usually go something like ramp into 6 mana or so and get an omen down with counter backup. I make them react to the omen and just keep counters for their enchantment removal. another way to go is playng scapeshift first for some valakuts, forest and halimar depths. this way any land you play does roughly 9 damage. hold fetches in play never crack them even if you have a win on board, if they natures claim in response it can cost you. You just need to test more and get the hang of the deck.
What decks are playing memoricide? I mean it seems like if you know they have it just hold back mana leak or pierce. I havnt run into that card yet or care about it. Basically after playing the deck a lot i dont fear many cards, and have learned that they are easy to play around. I also tested with the creator of the deck and winner of the first minneapolis ptq, matthias hunt.
If it helps any the decks i have lost to are:
Jund ( doubles bloodbraid into double blightning, id like to think he got kind of lucky but blaming a loss on luck isnt the way to go.)
Bant x3 (once in top 8)
mirror (my friend, we both made top 8)
Doran with 8 MD discard, pridemages, teeg, and duress in the board. Basically unwinnable.
and red deck wins, which is actually a pretty horrid matchup.
so thats x-2 or better in 4 ptqs, top 16 or better in them all.
Game 1 i have no fear of enchantment hate unless i am playing against 5cc (which i havnt played against yet) or pridemages, which are easy enough to beat, its very easy to play around hate cards most the time. If you can read your opponent well you can win a lot with this deck. Game 2 and 3 usually go something like ramp into 6 mana or so and get an omen down with counter backup. I make them react to the omen and just keep counters for their enchantment removal. another way to go is playng scapeshift first for some valakuts, forest and halimar depths. this way any land you play does roughly 9 damage. hold fetches in play never crack them even if you have a win on board, if they natures claim in response it can cost you. You just need to test more and get the hang of the deck.
What decks are playing memoricide? I mean it seems like if you know they have it just hold back mana leak or pierce. I havnt run into that card yet or care about it. Basically after playing the deck a lot i dont fear many cards, and have learned that they are easy to play around. I also tested with the creator of the deck and winner of the first minneapolis ptq, matthias hunt.
If it helps any the decks i have lost to are:
Jund ( doubles bloodbraid into double blightning, id like to think he got kind of lucky but blaming a loss on luck always puts me on tilt.)
Bant x3 (once in top 8)
mirror (my friend, we both made top 8)
Doran with 8 MD discard, pridemages, teeg, and duress in the board. Basically unwinnable.
and red deck wins, which is actually a pretty horrid matchup.
so thats x-2 or better in 4 ptqs, top 16 or better in them all.
Well you seem pretty confident and the results you got justify that.
So, taking for granted no deck plays thought hmorrage/memorycide, the strategy is just too play around the hate thye may have for it.
Regarding the MU you lost
jund...well i always said and will always say till the end of magic that cascade is a luck based mechanic so jund is a luck based deck :). Ofc you need some degree of skill to play it but a cascade can hand you the game on a silver platter even if you were dead.
What i am afraid of are Doran and Bant. I dunno how many ppl can play a doran deck since it only needs a single removal to handle A LOT of creatures.
Bant...well i had problems with it even with the standard r/g version so...not rly much to say.
I'll juts need to get a good SB plan.
The deck i'm trying, anyway, not only plays 10 mountains (replacing them since i go mana screw 1/3 of the times) also has Vendilion MD. And i must say that they work rly rly good. Instant blocker and discard.
Dont get me wrong, i love vendilion clique, but it isnt made for the maindeck. Clique isnt good in our bad matchups, and is excellent in your good matchups, So we shouldnt need it in the main. The maindeck i have i like a lot, not a thing i would change, just depending which matchups you struggle with is where the sideboard comes into play.
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You always hear about the games armageddon wins 100% of the time. You never hear about the game that it rots in your hand and you get beatdown.
i top 8ed the ptq in providence this weekend but didnt have the balls to run the hedron crab tech. how do games play out when you play him turn 1 and also does the downside of him being a dead draw late game outweigh the pros of being able to mill someone out?
I sideboarded him in 2 of the 8 rounds of swiss(he was in my deck for 3 games), and I drew it once, thankfully on turn one. We shouldnt have a problem drawing them late game because of all the filtering and shuffling. The time he did hit play it was mediocre at best, i ended up scapeshifting with omen and crab out. I dont know if i am going to play it this weekend, in the mirror there are to many cards going in already so i dont know that the crab is needed.
EDIT: i didnt test with crab at all. A friend, who top 8ed fargo with this deck said I should play the crab so i did.
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You always hear about the games armageddon wins 100% of the time. You never hear about the game that it rots in your hand and you get beatdown.
Fast aggro decks are the isue of all valakut's builds
If you think u'll face a lot of elves got with 4 pyroclasm and 2+ firespout. You may even consider 1 or 2 mulligan just to have 1 of these cards in hand.
9 times out of 10 if u resolve any of thse spells u win the game
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Here is the winning list from Grand Prix Atlanta by Jason Ford =
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Grove
4 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Halimar Depths
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Scalding Tarn
5 Island
4 Forest
1 Mountain
Creatures (3)
3 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Prismatic Omen
4 Cryptic Command
4 Preordain
3 Ponder
4 Rampant Growth
4 Explore
3 Scapeshift
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Mana Leak
1 Firespout
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dispel
1 Into The Roil
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Mana Leak
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Firespout
2 Primal Command
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Kitchen Finks
One of the main mistakes people make about this deck is thinking that its a RUG deck and has a shaky manabase which is not the case this deck is a UG scapeshift deck splashing a single mountain for firespout(plus against decks that u dont want spout against u board out the mountain for the tec edge in the sb) so the mana base is not rough at all its actually very consistent not even taking into account depths,ponder,preordain can help dig for g mana if needed.
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the relevation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P. Lovecraft
Also have been thinking about the sideboard, What do you guys think about the possiblity of having the pestermite/splinter twin combo in the sideboard? Seems like a fun idea after they side out all their creature hate....
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the relevation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P. Lovecraft
Faerie players are starting to leave in hate specifically for susher. Peppersmoke gets sideboarded out but anything that can kill the 2/2 tends to stay in. The combo also takes an absurd amount of s/b space.
I don't know how much I like the plan vs. 5cc or U/W. U/W players who tap out are just going to die anyways. Thrun seems so much better vs. 5cc builds that are not running Wall of Omens.
-Shiva
3rd place finisher played with splinter twin combo main deck. Seems like a really cool theory and great to confuse opponents trying to hate out your deck.
It either lost to NAya or RG scapeshift. Id assume the RG deck as naya is usually a buy.
Bloodbraid elf seems wrong and you cant hit too many good spells. Hitting pestermite seems bad, rampant growth would be good, but everything else is just a blue cantrip. And running BBE makes you not able to run mana leak, which seems questionable.
It has no way to slow down the early game beats, and the only defense being slagstorm out of sideboard seems questionable. Double red seems like would be hard to consistently get to early when needed an early sweeper.
I am not criticizing this deck at all, seeing as ive never top 3ed a ptq, i have no room to judge. But would jusst like some feedback on my conclusions from the deck.
I'm actually playing R/G scapeshift with.....horrbile results most of the times
To quote the few posts above:
R/G has a more stable mana base but 0 drawing spells, and for this reason i lost count of the games i lost cos i didnt draw a a single titan/scapeshift...or the only 1 i had was countered.
UG(r), on the other hand, has a more stable late game strategy being able to stall the opponent with cryptic and "search" your deck for your finisher (onlt scapeshift in this case).
The problem of this deck is that it relies heavily on Omen. G/W decks now have qasali MD or SB, and in general there is a lot of enchatments/artifacts hate around cos of UW sword decks. So relying on an enchantment to win is pretty hard.
Recently i played vs a version of UG(r) a lot more solid.
Same list but with 10 mountains.
I'm trying it with 4 Pyroclasm and 2 firespot MD sicne basically every deck in extended format plays a lot of small creatures.
True, with 10 mountains we may have a mana base a bit more shaky but...with ponder x3/4 preordain x3/4 Halimar Depths x4 this shouldnt be an issue.
This allow the deck to work like a standard R/G Valakut with the added benefits of having the blue for Cryptic/draw spells.
As for fast aggro decks i stopped relying on a turn 4 kill to beat them with standard R/G build....it simply doesnt happen.....you cant just go to a big tournament, play vs 7-8 opponents and hope to win every aggro MU by turn 4. That is where the sideboard comes in (togheter with my 6 sweepers MD). And in this situation, both decks are equal.
20 dmg by turn 4-5 kill you with or without 6-7-8 lands in play if you cant win consistently by that time.
@soulgix do not play maindeck clasm. there is no need. game one you just want to bust them asap. Bring in the pyroclasms post board. I played with pyroclasm maindeck in fargo and it probably cost me the top 8. If you want to play the deck i suggest you get a lot of quality testing in against bant. It seems to be the only deck i am losing to, and only when they have an insane draw. (lost to bant in the top 8, triple pridemage double forgetender unified will is pretty much unbeatable).
well
removing pyro + spout give the deck a lot more stability for sure (i could replace them with rampant growth + mana leak) expecially with the mana base i'm using (10 mountains)
Problem is. How do i handle fast aggro decks? or even UW with stoneforge?
The deck is not very fast, so...how did you do it?
This is the most recent list i played
4x misty rainforest
1x scalding tarn
4x island
3x forest
2x tectonic edge
4x flooded grove
1x mountain
4x valakut, the molten pinnacle
4x halimar depths
4x preordain
3x ponder
3x mana leak
1x jace, tms
4x cryptic command
4x prismatic omen
4x explore
4x rampant growth
3x scapeshift
3x oracle of mul daya
The sideboard changes often but this is what i played
4x HEDRON CRAB (fae, mirror, any true control)
2x vendilion clique (mirror, GR scapeshift, UW mystic, Any true control)
2x spell pierce (UW mystic, Bantwarp, fae)
2x natures claim (UW mystic, mirror)
1x dispel (i dont know why i had this here it wasnt very good)
4x pyroclasm (Bant, elves, naya, and the like. Though i have thought about cutting it recently because they bring in bad creatures and lower their clock, so most the time id rather ramp instead).
Other cards that have been in my board:
Reality spasm
Primal command
Kitchen finks
Wurmcoil engine
Baloth
Firespout
Other cards i have considered
Inferno Titan
aether tradewinds
deprive
EDIT: dont play the Jway deck. you are screwing your manabase.
That is the main reason why i decided to go with standard r/g build till now.
The SB against an enhcantment card is...huge..considering ,more than half of the format is with green decks.
And i really hope no1 plays Though hemorrhage or memoricide or i'm dead
how do you handle that?
Game 1 i have no fear of enchantment hate unless i am playing against 5cc (which i havnt played against yet) or pridemages, which are easy enough to beat, its very easy to play around hate cards most the time. If you can read your opponent well you can win a lot with this deck. Game 2 and 3 usually go something like ramp into 6 mana or so and get an omen down with counter backup. I make them react to the omen and just keep counters for their enchantment removal. another way to go is playng scapeshift first for some valakuts, forest and halimar depths. this way any land you play does roughly 9 damage. hold fetches in play never crack them even if you have a win on board, if they natures claim in response it can cost you. You just need to test more and get the hang of the deck.
What decks are playing memoricide? I mean it seems like if you know they have it just hold back mana leak or pierce. I havnt run into that card yet or care about it. Basically after playing the deck a lot i dont fear many cards, and have learned that they are easy to play around. I also tested with the creator of the deck and winner of the first minneapolis ptq, matthias hunt.
If it helps any the decks i have lost to are:
Jund ( doubles bloodbraid into double blightning, id like to think he got kind of lucky but blaming a loss on luck isnt the way to go.)
Bant x3 (once in top 8)
mirror (my friend, we both made top 8)
Doran with 8 MD discard, pridemages, teeg, and duress in the board. Basically unwinnable.
and red deck wins, which is actually a pretty horrid matchup.
so thats x-2 or better in 4 ptqs, top 16 or better in them all.
Well you seem pretty confident and the results you got justify that.
So, taking for granted no deck plays thought hmorrage/memorycide, the strategy is just too play around the hate thye may have for it.
Regarding the MU you lost
jund...well i always said and will always say till the end of magic that cascade is a luck based mechanic so jund is a luck based deck :). Ofc you need some degree of skill to play it but a cascade can hand you the game on a silver platter even if you were dead.
What i am afraid of are Doran and Bant. I dunno how many ppl can play a doran deck since it only needs a single removal to handle A LOT of creatures.
Bant...well i had problems with it even with the standard r/g version so...not rly much to say.
I'll juts need to get a good SB plan.
The deck i'm trying, anyway, not only plays 10 mountains (replacing them since i go mana screw 1/3 of the times) also has Vendilion MD. And i must say that they work rly rly good. Instant blocker and discard.
What do you think of that?
EDIT: i didnt test with crab at all. A friend, who top 8ed fargo with this deck said I should play the crab so i did.
I know is strong but i dont rly see it as needed in the deck
If you think u'll face a lot of elves got with 4 pyroclasm and 2+ firespout. You may even consider 1 or 2 mulligan just to have 1 of these cards in hand.
9 times out of 10 if u resolve any of thse spells u win the game