The questions I have involve mulligan decisions. I'm having trouble figuring out which hands to keep to go off turn 2 or 3. Also, what would I board out to bring in 3 Echoing Truth vs. grave hate?
Thanks for your help.
If you replace "cards" with "deck" in your tags, it formats your list for you.
Your list looks pretty stock.
You need to mulligan into something that has both the necessary mana and triggers to do the things you need to do. Usually 2-3 lands (minimum) + Crab or Glimpse + optional dredge guy or other effect you may be willing to discard if you happen upon Ideas Unbound or Rusalka (or, alternately, starting with either of those two and having a dredge guy in hand). You can't necessarily look to "go off by turn 2" because you can't expect to hit that consistently every time. You should be looking for the most secure start to get the largest number of resources out as fast as possible, which may be turn 2, may be turn 5, may be turn 20. Some of the better hands are something like Crab, Ideas, 1 land, 2 fetchland, grave troll, dread return... really, the key to getting good is knowing you deck. With combo decks, the best way to achieve this is, no joke, goldfishing like it's your job. You learn how hands look this way and what a good and bad hand look like (playing against someone doesn't hurt either, but whenever you're not playing against someone, goldfishing is where its at).
I haven't played the new dredge yet, so I have no advice for sideboarding yet.
You need to mulligan into something that has both the necessary mana and triggers to do the things you need to do. Usually 2-3 lands (minimum) + Crab or Glimpse + optional dredge guy or other effect you may be willing to discard if you happen upon Ideas Unbound or Rusalka (or, alternately, starting with either of those two and having a dredge guy in hand). You can't necessarily look to "go off by turn 2" because you can't expect to hit that consistently every time. You should be looking for the most secure start to get the largest number of resources out as fast as possible, which may be turn 2, may be turn 5, may be turn 20. Some of the better hands are something like Crab, Ideas, 1 land, 2 fetchland, grave troll, dread return... really, the key to getting good is knowing you deck. With combo decks, the best way to achieve this is, no joke, goldfishing like it's your job. You learn how hands look this way and what a good and bad hand look like (playing against someone doesn't hurt either, but whenever you're not playing against someone, goldfishing is where its at).
I haven't played the new dredge yet, so I have no advice for sideboarding yet.
Thanks for the advice (and sorry about the formatting... still new to the forums.) I've been testing pretty extensively, and I'm definitely happy with the list I've been running, stock though it may be. I would love to put in something like MD counter-magic... Cryptic or Remand seem especially good here, as their cantrips allow for extra dredging. However, I think the list might be too tight to pull anything for such a strategy. Dredge as it stands is pretty darned consistent.
Can you explain your choices, please? Why 4 Glimpse and 3 Ideas, not the other way around? I'm getting into Dredge the last days, and Ideas was very important for me until now for consistent early kills.
I like the Dakmor Salvage, but why not kick the Life from the Loam for it?
Glimpse is a kickstarter. Ideas is a booster.
The only scenario where Ideas will put more cards into the graveyard is if you manage to get 2 Dredgers of either Stink/Troll.
There is only 40% chance you have a Hedron in your starting hand, it is very unlikely you can even manage to dredge on turn 2 with Ideas, while Glimpse straight up puts 10 into your graveyard.
I dont know how your Ideas is getting you early consistent kills more than Glimpse is. Also, there are many hands where you only have 1 Rusulka + 1 Glimpse and zero dredgers in hand. Ideas on turn 2 requires you to ditch at least 1 dredger you draw from it in order to go on next turn. Glimpse lets you find dredgers from 10 cards, which is a much higher chance.
You need 1 Life from the Loam, it is crucial but not always necessary. Returning Ghost Quarters is a point. However, the main thing is that there will be games where you have to play attrition war and not just combo off and win, when that happens, hardcasting Sphinx/Troll/Imp/Dread Return is what happens and you will appreciate having the lands. They also allow multiple recurring of Bloodghasts.
Thanks for the advice (and sorry about the formatting... still new to the forums.) I've been testing pretty extensively, and I'm definitely happy with the list I've been running, stock though it may be. I would love to put in something like MD counter-magic... Cryptic or Remand seem especially good here, as their cantrips allow for extra dredging. However, I think the list might be too tight to pull anything for such a strategy. Dredge as it stands is pretty darned consistent.
Thoughts?
Remand basically does nothing against the spells you need to counter. Cryptic Command costs 4 mana. Neither does anything if they are put into your graveyard via dredge. Cards like Nix and Spell Pierce are 1 mana and counter cards designed to ruin your game (Crypt and Ravenous Trap; clearly Nix is the better of the two). They're also both sideboard cards.
Game one you're basically either going to win or not, but are highly favored in either case. Game 2+ is when you'll need the counters to hate on the sideboard cards.
Thanks for the advice (and sorry about the formatting... still new to the forums.) I've been testing pretty extensively, and I'm definitely happy with the list I've been running, stock though it may be. I would love to put in something like MD counter-magic... Cryptic or Remand seem especially good here, as their cantrips allow for extra dredging. However, I think the list might be too tight to pull anything for such a strategy. Dredge as it stands is pretty darned consistent.
Thoughts?
MD countermagic is a big no-no in the (MD) world of Dredge. Most builds focus on comboing ASAP Game 1, and the countermagic is for the SB hate your opponent brings in.
It would be like MD artifact hate - it sounds like a good plan but it really just takes up space for no tangeable gain; they could have no artifacts.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Been testing dredge against hypergenesis and wondering if I should do anything for that matchup. It's pretty bad chances for us right? What can we do to adjust our game after sideboarding?
spell pierce is the equivalent to nix against hypergenesis in my experience. I still feel that hasn't been enough against them.
Too bad for you then. If having 40% chance to draw your counter to their namesake card is not enough, and you somehow could not kill by turn 4-5 with or without Nix, you deserve to lose anyway.
There is also the point that 15+ Zombies + FKZ is not enough to overrun the 3-4 creatures put down at the most by Hyper?
Too bad for you then. If having 40% chance to draw your counter to their namesake card is not enough, and you somehow could not kill by turn 4-5 with or without Nix, you deserve to lose anyway.
There is also the point that 15+ Zombies + FKZ is not enough to overrun the 3-4 creatures put down at the most by Hyper?
Wow that feels hostile. Ok so let me ask this question. You side in 4 nix/spell pierce for what cards? Is that the only adjustment you do from g1 against hypergenesis? What do you put your g1 chances against hyper and your g2/g3 chances? Do you like playing against bloodmoon varients or no? Do you fetch basics typically to protect against bloodmoon varients or do you just go ahead and get shocklands?
Wow that feels hostile. Ok so let me ask this question. You side in 4 nix/spell pierce for what cards? Is that the only adjustment you do from g1 against hypergenesis? What do you put your g1 chances against hyper and your g2/g3 chances? Do you like playing against bloodmoon varients or no? Do you fetch basics typically to protect against bloodmoon varients or do you just go ahead and get shocklands?
+4 Nix
-2 Ideas
-1 Golgari Grave-Troll
-1 Life from the Loam
Game 1 is all about combo speed. If he has the god hand, what ☺☺☺☺ can you do? Honestly, nothing. So dont whine.
Similarly, if you have the god hand, Hyper player cannot do anything at all.
The advantage of playing Dredge is that you are less reliant on your draws while Hyper can just randomly screw up because it has more sucky hands, meaning Hyper has high variances.
Game 2, if you have Nix in hand, just keep mana up to counter any potential threats? If you dont, just aim to combo off as quick as possible?
Dredge, unlike Hyper, can beatdown for the win, meaning that even if Dredge cannot combo off, hitting for 4-5 a turn with Bloodghast, Narco and Rusulka is still a clock. Whereas Hyper is too reliant on getting out its combo or lose.
Hyper relies on topdecking and draws. Dredge literally can draw/dredge many cards in a turn, because to Dredge, the graveyard is its hand + board but yet, it can also do fairly well just by getting some stuff off it.
Deceiver thank you for your concept of what to cut. It may also come down to my play style. If for some reason you have no dredge engine going with 6 cards in hand.. do you sometimes just draw go for 2 turns to discard a golgari or something?
Deceiver thank you for your concept of what to cut. It may also come down to my play style. If for some reason you have no dredge engine going with 6 cards in hand.. do you sometimes just draw go for 2 turns to discard a golgari or something?
No.
Mulligan to 5. Try to aim for a reasonably good hand with at least 2 lands. A Glimpse/Rusulka/Ideas/Crab/Life would be good. That is about 15 cards you can aim for. Most important thing is to have at least 2 lands.
If you are really such a bad shuffler, mulligan to 4. Even a hand with 2 lands + 1 Glimpse/Rusulka/Ideas/Crab/Life + 1 Bridge/Dread/Dredge is better than a ☺☺☺☺ hand with zero kickstarters/enablers.
And by the way, there are games where the Hyper player comboes off, but lack the correct creatures and I was able to stall with Stinkweeds/Narcos long enough for me to combo off.
As a new dredge player (and new to the Extended format in general), I'd find more 'sideboarding philosophy' discussion very useful. Our MD list seems very tight, so inevitably the SB cards are going to slow us down. A few questions:
What MD cards, if any, are 'untouchable' when bringing in answers from the SB?
Which cards are the easiest to remove from the MD when sideboarding? How much does this depend on the matchup?
How many cards do you want to be bringing in from the SB? Two sub-questions here... first, how many different kinds of hate do people generally bring in against us (and therefore, how many different answers is it worth preparing for game 2), and second, what is the max number of cards we can bring in before it starts to become unwinnably-difficult for us to combo off?
I'm sure a lot of this is second nature to the Dredge experts among us, but having just started goldfishing and testing, I'd really appreciate a kickstart from those of you with experience piloting the list.
// Spells
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [SOK] Ideas Unbound
4 [RAV] Glimpse the Unthinkable
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 2 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
I am very skeptical of running steam vents for 2 grudge in the board.
@Deciever: Could you post your list and sb? I looked through your posts but couldn't find one.
Here is Yuuya Watanabe's list that Patrick Chapin suggested as a good choice for a testing gauntlet...
<snip>
I am very skeptical of running steam vents for 2 grudge in the board.
@Deciever: Could you post your list and sb? I looked through your posts but couldn't find one.
More likely than not, you are going to flashback Ancient Grudge if you are going to use it. Running the Steam Vents seems like an insurance in case they have multiple artifacts and you need to cast it from the hand. You can consider moving Steam Vents to the SB or to cut entirely, but don't cut the Breeding Pools, obviously.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I don't know why people say a double-edged sword is bad. It's a sword. With two edges." - Kamahl, Pit Fighter
Ive been thinking back to old sideboard options and outside of the box and came up with these ideas.
1. Offalsnout: Dont you play this instead of leyline as if you draw this later you can still play it and it its a left hook out of no where removing there bridges and a target.
2. Delay: Yes this is thinking outside the box but it is s counterspell that can stop anything for long enough for you to combo off, probably has lots of problems but i thought id think outside the box.
Also ive replaced the 1 of steam vents with a Dakmor Salvage and am not sure on sideboard.
If you want to think outside of the box, use Faerie Macabre instead.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
wondering about Bitter Ordeal in the sideboard... seems like we can play our game thru 1 rav trap or other hate pretty easily, but why not a couple of these bad boys g2 which would seem to wreck their sideboard plan for us unless they have multiples in their opening hand?
i recognize this is almost definitely not optimal but i feel like it would be funny to play before a dread return attempt and count the hate cards left in the deck(which gives you info about their hand as well) or bait out counters
wondering about Bitter Ordeal in the sideboard... seems like we can play our game thru 1 rav trap or other hate pretty easily, but why not a couple of these bad boys g2 which would seem to wreck their sideboard plan for us unless they have multiples in their opening hand?
i recognize this is almost definitely not optimal but i feel like it would be funny to play before a dread return attempt and count the hate cards left in the deck(which gives you info about their hand as well) or bait out counters
In my experience, the only hate that matters is the one they have in their hand. If you can discover they have no hate in hand, you can often combo off and win in the next 1-2 turns. In those 1-2 turns they most likely will not draw another hate card anyway, making Bitter Ordeal sort of useless. The only deck I could see it being useful against is Tezzeret where they have many options for tutoring up the hate. But again, if you have Nix or something and can stop their first tutored hate, that should give you enough of a window to just combo and win.
Shame about the cmc 3... You won't bait out counters because there's not really much point... since you are putting probably 4-5 copies on the stack when you cast it and the card is chosen during resolution of the spell.
Overall I think the format is too fast for this to have much impact on most of our matchups. Seems like it'd be funny vs. Tez tho. Snag all of their win cons and win with narcomoeba beats? Yes.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Sales
Legacy
Punishing Depths :symg::symu::symr:
Faithless Dredge :symb::symu::symr::symw::symg:
Your list looks pretty stock.
You need to mulligan into something that has both the necessary mana and triggers to do the things you need to do. Usually 2-3 lands (minimum) + Crab or Glimpse + optional dredge guy or other effect you may be willing to discard if you happen upon Ideas Unbound or Rusalka (or, alternately, starting with either of those two and having a dredge guy in hand). You can't necessarily look to "go off by turn 2" because you can't expect to hit that consistently every time. You should be looking for the most secure start to get the largest number of resources out as fast as possible, which may be turn 2, may be turn 5, may be turn 20. Some of the better hands are something like Crab, Ideas, 1 land, 2 fetchland, grave troll, dread return... really, the key to getting good is knowing you deck. With combo decks, the best way to achieve this is, no joke, goldfishing like it's your job. You learn how hands look this way and what a good and bad hand look like (playing against someone doesn't hurt either, but whenever you're not playing against someone, goldfishing is where its at).
I haven't played the new dredge yet, so I have no advice for sideboarding yet.
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
Thanks for the advice (and sorry about the formatting... still new to the forums.) I've been testing pretty extensively, and I'm definitely happy with the list I've been running, stock though it may be. I would love to put in something like MD counter-magic... Cryptic or Remand seem especially good here, as their cantrips allow for extra dredging. However, I think the list might be too tight to pull anything for such a strategy. Dredge as it stands is pretty darned consistent.
Thoughts?
If you wanted to add like Nix/Spell Pierce, thats more like it, but Remand/Cryptic? The only 4 mana spell I would hardcast in Dredge is Dread Return.
And please run 4 Glimpse, 2/3 Ideas. Not the other way round. You should cut 1 Watery Grave for Dakmor Salvage and another Ideas for Dakmor Salvage.
Glimpse is a kickstarter. Ideas is a booster.
The only scenario where Ideas will put more cards into the graveyard is if you manage to get 2 Dredgers of either Stink/Troll.
There is only 40% chance you have a Hedron in your starting hand, it is very unlikely you can even manage to dredge on turn 2 with Ideas, while Glimpse straight up puts 10 into your graveyard.
I dont know how your Ideas is getting you early consistent kills more than Glimpse is. Also, there are many hands where you only have 1 Rusulka + 1 Glimpse and zero dredgers in hand. Ideas on turn 2 requires you to ditch at least 1 dredger you draw from it in order to go on next turn. Glimpse lets you find dredgers from 10 cards, which is a much higher chance.
You need 1 Life from the Loam, it is crucial but not always necessary. Returning Ghost Quarters is a point. However, the main thing is that there will be games where you have to play attrition war and not just combo off and win, when that happens, hardcasting Sphinx/Troll/Imp/Dread Return is what happens and you will appreciate having the lands. They also allow multiple recurring of Bloodghasts.
Remand basically does nothing against the spells you need to counter. Cryptic Command costs 4 mana. Neither does anything if they are put into your graveyard via dredge. Cards like Nix and Spell Pierce are 1 mana and counter cards designed to ruin your game (Crypt and Ravenous Trap; clearly Nix is the better of the two). They're also both sideboard cards.
Game one you're basically either going to win or not, but are highly favored in either case. Game 2+ is when you'll need the counters to hate on the sideboard cards.
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
MD countermagic is a big no-no in the (MD) world of Dredge. Most builds focus on comboing ASAP Game 1, and the countermagic is for the SB hate your opponent brings in.
It would be like MD artifact hate - it sounds like a good plan but it really just takes up space for no tangeable gain; they could have no artifacts.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Too bad for you then. If having 40% chance to draw your counter to their namesake card is not enough, and you somehow could not kill by turn 4-5 with or without Nix, you deserve to lose anyway.
There is also the point that 15+ Zombies + FKZ is not enough to overrun the 3-4 creatures put down at the most by Hyper?
Wow that feels hostile. Ok so let me ask this question. You side in 4 nix/spell pierce for what cards? Is that the only adjustment you do from g1 against hypergenesis? What do you put your g1 chances against hyper and your g2/g3 chances? Do you like playing against bloodmoon varients or no? Do you fetch basics typically to protect against bloodmoon varients or do you just go ahead and get shocklands?
+4 Nix
-2 Ideas
-1 Golgari Grave-Troll
-1 Life from the Loam
Game 1 is all about combo speed. If he has the god hand, what ☺☺☺☺ can you do? Honestly, nothing. So dont whine.
Similarly, if you have the god hand, Hyper player cannot do anything at all.
The advantage of playing Dredge is that you are less reliant on your draws while Hyper can just randomly screw up because it has more sucky hands, meaning Hyper has high variances.
Game 2, if you have Nix in hand, just keep mana up to counter any potential threats? If you dont, just aim to combo off as quick as possible?
Dredge, unlike Hyper, can beatdown for the win, meaning that even if Dredge cannot combo off, hitting for 4-5 a turn with Bloodghast, Narco and Rusulka is still a clock. Whereas Hyper is too reliant on getting out its combo or lose.
Hyper relies on topdecking and draws. Dredge literally can draw/dredge many cards in a turn, because to Dredge, the graveyard is its hand + board but yet, it can also do fairly well just by getting some stuff off it.
No.
Mulligan to 5. Try to aim for a reasonably good hand with at least 2 lands. A Glimpse/Rusulka/Ideas/Crab/Life would be good. That is about 15 cards you can aim for. Most important thing is to have at least 2 lands.
If you are really such a bad shuffler, mulligan to 4. Even a hand with 2 lands + 1 Glimpse/Rusulka/Ideas/Crab/Life + 1 Bridge/Dread/Dredge is better than a ☺☺☺☺ hand with zero kickstarters/enablers.
And by the way, there are games where the Hyper player comboes off, but lack the correct creatures and I was able to stall with Stinkweeds/Narcos long enough for me to combo off.
I'm sure a lot of this is second nature to the Dredge experts among us, but having just started goldfishing and testing, I'd really appreciate a kickstart from those of you with experience piloting the list.
// Lands
2 [DIS] Breeding Pool
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [RAV] Watery Grave
2 [UNH] Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [GP] Steam Vents
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [ZEN] Bloodghast
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [ZEN] Hedron Crab
4 [GP] Drowned Rusalka
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Lost Truths
// Spells
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [SOK] Ideas Unbound
4 [RAV] Glimpse the Unthinkable
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 2 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
I am very skeptical of running steam vents for 2 grudge in the board.
@Deciever: Could you post your list and sb? I looked through your posts but couldn't find one.
More likely than not, you are going to flashback Ancient Grudge if you are going to use it. Running the Steam Vents seems like an insurance in case they have multiple artifacts and you need to cast it from the hand. You can consider moving Steam Vents to the SB or to cut entirely, but don't cut the Breeding Pools, obviously.
If you want to think outside of the box, use Faerie Macabre instead.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
i recognize this is almost definitely not optimal but i feel like it would be funny to play before a dread return attempt and count the hate cards left in the deck(which gives you info about their hand as well) or bait out counters
In my experience, the only hate that matters is the one they have in their hand. If you can discover they have no hate in hand, you can often combo off and win in the next 1-2 turns. In those 1-2 turns they most likely will not draw another hate card anyway, making Bitter Ordeal sort of useless. The only deck I could see it being useful against is Tezzeret where they have many options for tutoring up the hate. But again, if you have Nix or something and can stop their first tutored hate, that should give you enough of a window to just combo and win.
Overall I think the format is too fast for this to have much impact on most of our matchups. Seems like it'd be funny vs. Tez tho. Snag all of their win cons and win with narcomoeba beats? Yes.