Pornography is fine as long as its kept in context, its entertainment. The problem with kids watching professional porn is both sexes feel like they dont measure up and start their sex life feeling inadiquate. There is enough pressure without feeling like they dont measure up or cant preform like they saw in a porn. Most adults can handle watching porn and know its entertainment. I say most because adults can even be unrealistic when it comes to sex.
On a side note, the days of women being objectified and degraded in porn are for the most part a thing of the past. The women get good money and are not asked to do anything they wouldnt do in their own bedroom. The big thing is its ACTING. Unlike the amature stuff out there where Dick and Jane want people to watch them do their thing.
No, it's pretty much completely a thing of the past. Like bocephus says, the girls only do things they would be willing to do normally. If a girl isn't willing to do something, they just find some other girl that is for that particular film.
What I don't understand is why anyone still pays for porn. There is a completely absurd amount of free porn on the internet now, spending money on it is a joke.
And it's considered bad in the US because the US is a Christian-based country and society. The End.
It's just as much of a thing of the past as racism, sexism, unemployment, poverty, resource wars and stubbed toes.
In the American professional porn industry it is, now every where else in the world.. I cant say. I do know the American porn industry is monitored very strictly.
don't match up. Degradation and objectification aren't things of the past when the industry will simply find a girl desperate enough for the cash to do it.
?? You are making a movie and are interviewing girls, you say we need a girl willing to do x,y, and z. The girl says I will do x but not y or z. They find someone else that will do x,y, and z. How is that degrading and objectifying? She has a choice, she isnt being forced to do something against her will. Most girls in the industry are known for doing certain things.
don't match up. Degradation and objectification aren't things of the past when the industry will simply find a girl desperate enough for the cash to do it.
It's not about 'desperation'. If a girl is willing to do things in her personal sexlife/without getting paid for them in pornography, and is involved in pornography, then most likely she is going to be able to do them there also.
People seem to think that porn is some terrible thing that just preys on girls. I really don't see how this is true. Successful porn stars make ridiculous money, and it requires very little actual work(and even said work is an act that is physically enjoyable). This isn't the 80s. The internet has revolutionized the porn industry. Girls go out of their way to be involved in porn now. People are finally(painstakingly slowly, but still) figuring out that sex is just a physical act of pleasure. It can be more, but it doesn't have to be.
This thread made it abundantly clear that people are doing it wrong.
It's not unrealistic, I have done just about everything I've seen for better or worse (nothing scatological or other extremes, but I've covered a lot of ground). To call it unrealistic is simply a human perception based on their own experience (I'd never do that turns to who'd do that turns to no one does that).
It can be degrading, but most of the time it's not - similar to stripping. People are either being paid very well for doing some thing they like, not being paid very well to do something they like, or being paid very well because they are simply they desperate that the cash is a need. Mainstream porn (i.e. 99% of porn) falls into the first and second. The third is an incredibly small part of the whole industry, and usually exists because of drug abuse or some other abuse that would shut the "business" down. It's just like anything else, you run a clean ship and your employees will no be shady.
Most of the shadiness from porn came from a time when it was either borderline illegal or illegal to film porn just about anywhere in the country. The only people making money were the ones distributing the porn, and the actors were simply desperate and involved in the underbelly of society. When the porn industry itself is allowed to be run as a safe, hospitable work environment all of that changes.
As for racism, I'm not sure what all that would refer to. There's plenty of porn using racial slurs, dirty words, etc. but surprise surprise people do use those words in private. That doesn't make it racist. There's a lot of pron that presents stereotypes, but it obviously has a market - thinking of a lot of... interracial porn. But then again, it's not more racist that the entertainment industry.
And as far as misogyny is concerned, it's not worse than entertainment - probably even better. I've seen men's magazines describe a woman on top as "it gives her the feeling of power, so she likes it that way" (Men's Health or something similar), almost every movie does not meet the Bechdel Test (not to mention video games). As with anything else bought by the public it is not something reinforcing or inventing bad things it's simply catering to what is already there.
To say porn by its nature is bad is simply ignoring sex, and trying to repress it - certainly not healthy.
You know, I would absolutely love if pornographic film industries started running WWE-esque vignettes telling viewers not to try this at home. Epic epic lulz.
Pornos have those. Lot's of gay bareback pornos come with a warning that having unprotected sex can spread diseases and stuff and you shouldn't do it...now spend the next 2 hours watching guys have unprotected sex. Is that a mixed message?
Plus how come men are never considered to be degraded or objectified by porn? Guys usually get paid less and can't even fake it. Totally not fair.
I'm not sure what are you referring when talking about degradation on porn. I see it right there. When some girl is having anal sex with a painful expression and the guy start spanking her (and some even laugh at them)... I don't know if the girl is actually feeling humiliated, but is surely the way the film is trying to depict her: as a *****, as a whore... as a piece of meat for your pleasure. :S
Edit: Are ***** and whore allowed? I was sure they would get censored. :S
I'm not sure what are you referring when talking about degradation on porn. I see it right there. When some girl is having anal sex with a painful expression and the guy start spanking her (and some even laugh at them)... I don't know if the girl is actually feeling humiliated, but is surely the way the film is trying to depict her: as a *****, as a whore... as a piece of meat for your pleasure. :S
Maybe it's just the porn I watch then, because the vast majority is not painful expressions and is simply filthy. Even something like Money Talks has a chick there that's talking dirty with the guys, and the porns I have seen where the woman was visibly in pain was not mainstream video - just lots of obvious faking and that stupid pouty face. I also haven't really seen laughing, but there's nothing wrong with spanking or using "*****" and "whore" if that's what is wanted (key word). Plenty of people want to be submissive in bed, and words play a big part of that. Obviously, if you just engage in back-door action without warning and starting laughing the night will not end well for you.
There is also porn where the girl dominates the men outside of BDSM - it's all in what you find. Think of all the porn people just use to gross others out: lemon party, 2 girls one cup, goatse, tub girl, meat spin, cake farts, etc. There's also the half-joke half-real sexual positions like rodeo style or Houdini style and the like. It's an endless array of weird stuff people do in a sexual position, but just because it's sexual does not make it more dirty or bad than other forms of media.
Personally, I feel there is more degrading treatment of women in shows like Gossip Girl and easily more in mens magazines. I have seen discussion in media that's not far off from vintage ads.
As Pancho said, something can be degrading and objectifying even when the women carrying it out have accepted payment for it. There's basically no way that Cumhungry Teenyboppers 48 is going to be empowering or dignified, you know.
Who are you to decree that these girls should only act dignified? It's their lives.
That's an issue of capitalism, not something that makes it okay when it happens in porn. So you aren't going to see me changing my mind because economic pressures happens in other fields as well.
In the interest of staying on topic, let's table the capitalist-communist discussion.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
This is one of the questions that have risen up in my personal journey that I have taken up over the past couple of days to seek out truth. And I'm not ashamed to admit, or I should say, I am willing to state the fact that I am an avid watcher of all things pornographic.
Many religious folk believe pornography to be sinful or wrong. Mostly because it entails one of the seven deadly sins known as Lust. Which involves themes such as adultery and indulgence.
Is there some kind of substantial proof that watching pornography is disadvantageous to our mental state? Let's pretend that the viewing of pornography is NOT being tied to adultery or losing intimacy with a significant other where it's obvious that it's harmful to everyone involved. Do non-religious people have morals that entail going against pornographic material? Is it considered taboo in more American or European cultures than ones based on religion? Is there proof that pornography has significant benefits?
I have my own opinion on this subject, but I feel like I would cheapen the debate if I just came out and said my feelings on the subject and made it look like I was grand standing or being hypocritical. So feel free to post your thoughts below.
One is because we live in a largely Christian nation founded by Puritans.
The other is that it's pretty clear that it's all about humanity at its most base and vulgar and voyeuristic. The fact that people would regard the porn industry as unsavory is not surprising, and frankly not something I would disagree with. It is pretty openly vulgar and base.
Granted, there's no reason it has to be, and I disagree that porn that should be banned or not be protected speech unless it's a violation of US law. I also think that the feminist argument that the porn industry is this horrible monster that corrupts innocent young girls and exists to exploit them is absurd, one because it is something women choose to do of their own volition, and also because I think if you're going to argue anyone participating is being degraded, then they all are.
I also hesitate to say that porn has no social value, because I do believe our society has a very unhealthy attitude towards sexuality that breeds neurotic behavior about sex, especially with regards to those who are not heterosexual or considered "the norm," and if this helps people to be themselves, I consider that a good thing.
That said, the idea that those who have problems with porn are the people who thing sex is evil and have unhealthy attitudes towards it cannot hold, because it's very clear that the same unhealthy attitudes are found in pornography ALL THE TIME, even fostered and openly encouraged. I mean:
I'm not sure what are you referring when talking about degradation on porn. I see it right there.
Exactly, the blanket statement that "porn isn't degrading" is pretty absurd when so much of it is.
And the attitude that porn industry is distasteful is not really so hard to figure out, is it? The word "filthy" applies, even Howard Stern would agree with me there.
"Think of the children!" is a hilarious knee-jerk reaction, especially when invoked against someone whose idea of thinking of the children is discussing the merits of unrestrained education.
Dismissing this with a handwave is disingenuous. Let's be real, there's a lot of disturbing ☺☺☺☺ out there. Children should not be exposed to that.
I have no problem with sex education to children, so I'm not sure where this sentiment came from. Pornography can be education, but that's not its purpose, and is more often a source of _miseducation_.
I'm almost positive the majority of sex experts in the world would agree with you. Frankly, the idea of porn being valuable for sex education is pretty ridiculous in my mind.
We know why sex is considered a taboo topic. It's mostly based in religion.
No, it's mostly based on culture. Religion is a profound influence on human culture, and Christianity has a profound influence on our culture, particularly relevant to this area, but such an attitude towards pornography isn't limited to historically Christian nations.
Ultimately I'm not really sure what to make of the whole thing. I think there is a line between porn and art, and porn and glorification of the human being, although admittedly there are pornographic images I have found to be very beautiful, so the line is not always clear, although I think it's safe to say it's blurred only a minority of the time.
But the thread asked is porn evil or bad, and the answer is it can't be, because it is a creation of mankind. So however we react to porn, what we're really reacting to is the parts of ourselves that are openly and highly sexual.
I think it's safe to say an attitude towards this being evil or bad is extremely unhealthy, because it inspires a guilt towards being human and the very instincts that lead us toward procreation. But I disagree that openly embracing or glorifying the porn industry is the only other option.
Nor do I believe that extremely unhealthy attitudes toward sex and thus pornography aren't prolific. Again, how we react to porn reflects how we react to human sexual urges, but that's not to say there isn't a lot to human sexuality that we shouldn't recoil at. Feeling shame in the act of sex is not a healthy thing, but there are numerous other unhealthy behaviors in sex that need to be addressed as well, and dismissing them is hardly truthful.
So that's really all I can say in the matter. Like any human behavior you have to trace it to what it is about humanity that's being expressed and evaluate it from there.
I am someone who takes issue with the general acceptance of pornography that degrades people (and women happen to be by far most affected by it!). It's the same as being offended by minstrel shows and having white people tell you that it's okay because the black people performing are paid and are just fine with it.
You can get back to me with this question when we have completely (or at least overwhelmingly) done away with coercive labour conditions and left this sort of thing entirely to those who have a kink for doing it on camera.
I'm curious about you opinion on sites that let people submit their personal videos, and runs say a "most popular video for the month gets $500" type deal. They are getting increasingly popular.
I am someone who takes issue with the general acceptance of pornography that degrades people (and women happen to be by far most affected by it!). It's the same as being offended by minstrel shows and having white people tell you that it's okay because the black people performing are paid and are just fine with it.
You can get back to me with this question when we have completely (or at least overwhelmingly) done away with coercive labour conditions and left this sort of thing entirely to those who have a kink for doing it on camera.
Oh please, so no one should watch porn until the world is perfect? You can apply this sort of logic to anything. I'm pretty sure the guy working at McDonalds doesn't want to be there, but I'm still going to buy food there. I don't think pornography is ever the only option that someone has.
No, I am very much discussing pornography. I'm saying that there's a whole bunch of morally objectionable porn out there. You overreacted to this because you thought I was saying that porn is inherently morally objectionable. I offered the solution of avoiding the stuff you know isn't made for the fun of it.
Nothing more dramatic or interesting than that.
Can I get an example? Are you talking about the content of the video, or do you somehow know what conditions it was produced in?
Fair warning: I don't hold back discussing this subject. Skip this post if you're squeamish.
Okay, now that the middle-aged people are out of the audience with the children and teenagers raptly enthralled, let's get started:
The basic taboo simply comes from the puritanical heritage of the United States.
Most Puritan women married pregnant, and if you read some of their love letters they were into sex. Most of the issues came from the Victorian sentiments on pornography during the 19th century. The nature of Puritanism never really became "national" it's just became a part of the narrative. The major thrust of religion came after the colonial period through what are called the "Great Awakenings."
Considering that the "latest" Great Awakening was during the 60's and 70's when Falwell and friends came to power, the major thrust of the counterrevolution I would go as far as to say that much of the "puritanical nature" of the religion is just social conservativism in general and not really a long walk back to there. If anything Methodism, Baptists, and ect. were much more effective than the Puritans. That and when you consider that some sects absolutely hated each other, drawing a large line back to the "puritan heritage" is well, rather convoluted.
The other argument, alluded to above, is that porn opens you up to the "sin" of masturbation (Onanism, to make it sound fancy, which is also where the Japanese term "onanie" comes from—yes, I just happen to know this offhand), the actual biblical validity of which is suspect at best. But it should be fairly obvious that dealing with your sexual desires by masturbating is a hell of a lot healthier, mentally speaking, than trying to bury them and having the frustration seep into other areas of your life. But again, the major objection here stems from puritanical influence with choosy interpretations of the bible rather than anything concrete.
I'm actually going to go off on a tangent largely because it's an effect that I find interesting. This is where it gets trippy.
If you want to get really specific, Paul of Tarsus was a Roman and influenced by Stoicism. The moralists of the time blamed sexual vagrancy ranging from orgies to homosexuality and ect. as morally corrosive to the failing of the empire. So we often have these comparisons between the Roman Empire and the US since day one, since that was the classical education to read Livy, Plutarch, Greek philosophers, Roman moralists, and friends.
So the trajectory became a fixation that public morality was dependent upon private morality, so this where we find the rise of the blue laws. Catholics ironically, were against the blue laws and fought tooth, claw, and nail against many blue laws set up by Protestants.
The trajectory of sex has sort of went from a highly centralized publication conglomerates to now a wide distribution medium. It's come around full circle to the "way it used to be."
Scroll down, there's a picture from Pompeii with Mercury having a large *****. There's a whole room off limit to the kiddies in Pompeii just filled with this stuff that would put Penthouse to shame. Seriously, some Greek vases I've seen have women in various poses with sexual devices. It's actually a very interesting subject altogether with human sexuality.
About an hour long special dealing with Pompeii, but the entire series does a decent job in grappling with sex. I'd recommend anyone interested in sex to watch it. There's books out there on these subjects as well, but this I feel gives the best overview for people, although it's not perfect obviously.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Dismissing this with a handwave is disingenuous. Let's be real, there's a lot of disturbing ☺☺☺☺ out there. Children should not be exposed to that.
So who decides where the boundary between acceptable and disturbing lies? Sex in the missionary position for the purpose of procreation is one thing, but what about other things? Oral? Anal? Multiple partners for the people into that? I think we can definitely rule out SWAP.avi or 2girls1cup, but where's the middle ground? What set of Moral Guardians makes these decisions? What specific disadvantage is there to acknowledging this stuff exists and giving them a proper education on it, rather than letting them come across it on their own?
So who decides where the boundary between acceptable and disturbing lies? Sex in the missionary position for the purpose of procreation is one thing, but what about other things? Oral? Anal? Multiple partners for the people into that? I think we can definitely rule out SWAP.avi or 2girls1cup, but where's the middle ground? What set of Moral Guardians makes these decisions? What specific disadvantage is there to acknowledging this stuff exists and giving them a proper education on it, rather than letting them come across it on their own?
Of course, we run into this when we discuss moral and other subjective stuff, like "bad"... all this comes into opinion, right? Is bad for some and is not bad for others. X_X
IMHO, porn is not bad per se. The industry is as good as any other for entertainment. What I see wrong are some abusive porn producers that look for poor latin/east-european/south-asian young girls, make some "casting" videos and treat them like ☺☺☺☺ for the viewer's pleasure. Sure it isn't illegal, but I find it morally bad.
I agree with Teia here too. She knows ☺☺☺☺ again. I agree with the fact that porn is not bad, even for kids, (not too young). I started watching it at maybe 12? After 14, most kids have seen it already. People only freak out cause they fear it. (My dad's one of it). As long as people are well educated the things that porn teach ("wrongly") like the nothing below 8 inches things are moot. (Which is actually funny considering I've never heard of less than 8 inches (I thought myself lucky until this) amongs people I know.)
This is one of the questions that have risen up in my personal journey that I have taken up over the past couple of days to seek out truth. And I'm not ashamed to admit, or I should say, I am willing to state the fact that I am an avid watcher of all things pornographic.
Many religious folk believe pornography to be sinful or wrong. Mostly because it entails one of the seven deadly sins known as Lust. Which involves themes such as adultery and indulgence.
Is there some kind of substantial proof that watching pornography is disadvantageous to our mental state? Let's pretend that the viewing of pornography is NOT being tied to adultery or losing intimacy with a significant other where it's obvious that it's harmful to everyone involved. Do non-religious people have morals that entail going against pornographic material? Is it considered taboo in more American or European cultures than ones based on religion? Is there proof that pornography has significant benefits?
I have my own opinion on this subject, but I feel like I would cheapen the debate if I just came out and said my feelings on the subject and made it look like I was grand standing or being hypocritical. So feel free to post your thoughts below.
I think it's mostly because in Christianity and probably other religious, masturbation is a sin since your not reproducing.
For those of you saying that porn is degrading to women, there's also porn that degrades men. Maybe it doesn't happen as often, but I've seen women/men use men as objects.
I think most of the people that are against porn are against it because it can cause addiction and corrupt children that see it. They think they're getting an idea of what real sex is all about, when they really aren't. Others are against it because some companies try to make 18 year old girls look younger than they are, and even wax off the pubic hair. TBH when I first saw porn I thought it was normal to wax those areas regardless
I think it's mostly because in Christianity and probably other religious, masturbation is a sin since your not reproducing.
It's not a sin depending on what you're thinking about. Masturbation by itself just makes you unclean, but if you think about someone other than your spouse then you're committing adultery in your mind.
I think the ruling logic against it is more of a "Why do you need to do this?" feeling, since civilization is generally viewed as the willing sublimation of baser instincts. The idea is that we should control our sex drives, so they don't control us. Porn works against that in the minds of most people. The idea is that it's a spiral effect. Porn is sort of a form of degradation and advantage-taking. You're, in every sense of the word, using the people in the video. It's easy to just say they're doing it willingly, which is true, but that goes into way more debate on the overall context of their participation. Many people find this distasteful, and to be something we can't possibly be better off for having.
I think the main reason, though, is the idea that porn is an example of letting your instincts control you, instead of you controlling them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Petitioning for the removal of crybaby sigs. Sig this if you hate whiners.
Currently Playing: UW UW Control WR Tempered Steel GR Valakut Ramp G Elves GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
On a side note, the days of women being objectified and degraded in porn are for the most part a thing of the past. The women get good money and are not asked to do anything they wouldnt do in their own bedroom. The big thing is its ACTING. Unlike the amature stuff out there where Dick and Jane want people to watch them do their thing.
What I don't understand is why anyone still pays for porn. There is a completely absurd amount of free porn on the internet now, spending money on it is a joke.
And it's considered bad in the US because the US is a Christian-based country and society. The End.
In the American professional porn industry it is, now every where else in the world.. I cant say. I do know the American porn industry is monitored very strictly.
Read this interview that the AV Club did with very successful pornstar Nina Hartley:
http://www.avclub.com/articles/nina-hartley,2133/
She makes some very good points about the porn industry and it's stigmas.
?? You are making a movie and are interviewing girls, you say we need a girl willing to do x,y, and z. The girl says I will do x but not y or z. They find someone else that will do x,y, and z. How is that degrading and objectifying? She has a choice, she isnt being forced to do something against her will. Most girls in the industry are known for doing certain things.
It's not about 'desperation'. If a girl is willing to do things in her personal sexlife/without getting paid for them in pornography, and is involved in pornography, then most likely she is going to be able to do them there also.
People seem to think that porn is some terrible thing that just preys on girls. I really don't see how this is true. Successful porn stars make ridiculous money, and it requires very little actual work(and even said work is an act that is physically enjoyable). This isn't the 80s. The internet has revolutionized the porn industry. Girls go out of their way to be involved in porn now. People are finally(painstakingly slowly, but still) figuring out that sex is just a physical act of pleasure. It can be more, but it doesn't have to be.
It's not unrealistic, I have done just about everything I've seen for better or worse (nothing scatological or other extremes, but I've covered a lot of ground). To call it unrealistic is simply a human perception based on their own experience (I'd never do that turns to who'd do that turns to no one does that).
It can be degrading, but most of the time it's not - similar to stripping. People are either being paid very well for doing some thing they like, not being paid very well to do something they like, or being paid very well because they are simply they desperate that the cash is a need. Mainstream porn (i.e. 99% of porn) falls into the first and second. The third is an incredibly small part of the whole industry, and usually exists because of drug abuse or some other abuse that would shut the "business" down. It's just like anything else, you run a clean ship and your employees will no be shady.
Most of the shadiness from porn came from a time when it was either borderline illegal or illegal to film porn just about anywhere in the country. The only people making money were the ones distributing the porn, and the actors were simply desperate and involved in the underbelly of society. When the porn industry itself is allowed to be run as a safe, hospitable work environment all of that changes.
As for racism, I'm not sure what all that would refer to. There's plenty of porn using racial slurs, dirty words, etc. but surprise surprise people do use those words in private. That doesn't make it racist. There's a lot of pron that presents stereotypes, but it obviously has a market - thinking of a lot of... interracial porn. But then again, it's not more racist that the entertainment industry.
And as far as misogyny is concerned, it's not worse than entertainment - probably even better. I've seen men's magazines describe a woman on top as "it gives her the feeling of power, so she likes it that way" (Men's Health or something similar), almost every movie does not meet the Bechdel Test (not to mention video games). As with anything else bought by the public it is not something reinforcing or inventing bad things it's simply catering to what is already there.
To say porn by its nature is bad is simply ignoring sex, and trying to repress it - certainly not healthy.
Pornos have those. Lot's of gay bareback pornos come with a warning that having unprotected sex can spread diseases and stuff and you shouldn't do it...now spend the next 2 hours watching guys have unprotected sex. Is that a mixed message?
Plus how come men are never considered to be degraded or objectified by porn? Guys usually get paid less and can't even fake it. Totally not fair.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
Edit: Are ***** and whore allowed? I was sure they would get censored. :S
[Clan Flamingo]
The clan for custom card creators!
There is also porn where the girl dominates the men outside of BDSM - it's all in what you find. Think of all the porn people just use to gross others out: lemon party, 2 girls one cup, goatse, tub girl, meat spin, cake farts, etc. There's also the half-joke half-real sexual positions like rodeo style or Houdini style and the like. It's an endless array of weird stuff people do in a sexual position, but just because it's sexual does not make it more dirty or bad than other forms of media.
Personally, I feel there is more degrading treatment of women in shows like Gossip Girl and easily more in mens magazines. I have seen discussion in media that's not far off from vintage ads.
Who are you to decree that these girls should only act dignified? It's their lives.
In the interest of staying on topic, let's table the capitalist-communist discussion.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
One is because we live in a largely Christian nation founded by Puritans.
The other is that it's pretty clear that it's all about humanity at its most base and vulgar and voyeuristic. The fact that people would regard the porn industry as unsavory is not surprising, and frankly not something I would disagree with. It is pretty openly vulgar and base.
Granted, there's no reason it has to be, and I disagree that porn that should be banned or not be protected speech unless it's a violation of US law. I also think that the feminist argument that the porn industry is this horrible monster that corrupts innocent young girls and exists to exploit them is absurd, one because it is something women choose to do of their own volition, and also because I think if you're going to argue anyone participating is being degraded, then they all are.
I also hesitate to say that porn has no social value, because I do believe our society has a very unhealthy attitude towards sexuality that breeds neurotic behavior about sex, especially with regards to those who are not heterosexual or considered "the norm," and if this helps people to be themselves, I consider that a good thing.
That said, the idea that those who have problems with porn are the people who thing sex is evil and have unhealthy attitudes towards it cannot hold, because it's very clear that the same unhealthy attitudes are found in pornography ALL THE TIME, even fostered and openly encouraged. I mean:
Exactly, the blanket statement that "porn isn't degrading" is pretty absurd when so much of it is.
And the attitude that porn industry is distasteful is not really so hard to figure out, is it? The word "filthy" applies, even Howard Stern would agree with me there.
Dismissing this with a handwave is disingenuous. Let's be real, there's a lot of disturbing ☺☺☺☺ out there. Children should not be exposed to that.
I'm almost positive the majority of sex experts in the world would agree with you. Frankly, the idea of porn being valuable for sex education is pretty ridiculous in my mind.
No, it's mostly based on culture. Religion is a profound influence on human culture, and Christianity has a profound influence on our culture, particularly relevant to this area, but such an attitude towards pornography isn't limited to historically Christian nations.
Ultimately I'm not really sure what to make of the whole thing. I think there is a line between porn and art, and porn and glorification of the human being, although admittedly there are pornographic images I have found to be very beautiful, so the line is not always clear, although I think it's safe to say it's blurred only a minority of the time.
But the thread asked is porn evil or bad, and the answer is it can't be, because it is a creation of mankind. So however we react to porn, what we're really reacting to is the parts of ourselves that are openly and highly sexual.
I think it's safe to say an attitude towards this being evil or bad is extremely unhealthy, because it inspires a guilt towards being human and the very instincts that lead us toward procreation. But I disagree that openly embracing or glorifying the porn industry is the only other option.
Nor do I believe that extremely unhealthy attitudes toward sex and thus pornography aren't prolific. Again, how we react to porn reflects how we react to human sexual urges, but that's not to say there isn't a lot to human sexuality that we shouldn't recoil at. Feeling shame in the act of sex is not a healthy thing, but there are numerous other unhealthy behaviors in sex that need to be addressed as well, and dismissing them is hardly truthful.
So that's really all I can say in the matter. Like any human behavior you have to trace it to what it is about humanity that's being expressed and evaluate it from there.
Oh please, so no one should watch porn until the world is perfect? You can apply this sort of logic to anything. I'm pretty sure the guy working at McDonalds doesn't want to be there, but I'm still going to buy food there. I don't think pornography is ever the only option that someone has.
Ah I see, you don't really want to discuss pornography, you want to turn this into a thread on socialism vs capitalism or something.
Can I get an example? Are you talking about the content of the video, or do you somehow know what conditions it was produced in?
Most Puritan women married pregnant, and if you read some of their love letters they were into sex. Most of the issues came from the Victorian sentiments on pornography during the 19th century. The nature of Puritanism never really became "national" it's just became a part of the narrative. The major thrust of religion came after the colonial period through what are called the "Great Awakenings."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Awakening
Considering that the "latest" Great Awakening was during the 60's and 70's when Falwell and friends came to power, the major thrust of the counterrevolution I would go as far as to say that much of the "puritanical nature" of the religion is just social conservativism in general and not really a long walk back to there. If anything Methodism, Baptists, and ect. were much more effective than the Puritans. That and when you consider that some sects absolutely hated each other, drawing a large line back to the "puritan heritage" is well, rather convoluted.
If you want to get really specific, Paul of Tarsus was a Roman and influenced by Stoicism. The moralists of the time blamed sexual vagrancy ranging from orgies to homosexuality and ect. as morally corrosive to the failing of the empire. So we often have these comparisons between the Roman Empire and the US since day one, since that was the classical education to read Livy, Plutarch, Greek philosophers, Roman moralists, and friends.
So the trajectory became a fixation that public morality was dependent upon private morality, so this where we find the rise of the blue laws. Catholics ironically, were against the blue laws and fought tooth, claw, and nail against many blue laws set up by Protestants.
The trajectory of sex has sort of went from a highly centralized publication conglomerates to now a wide distribution medium. It's come around full circle to the "way it used to be."
NSFW:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_profanity
Scroll down, there's a picture from Pompeii with Mercury having a large *****. There's a whole room off limit to the kiddies in Pompeii just filled with this stuff that would put Penthouse to shame. Seriously, some Greek vases I've seen have women in various poses with sexual devices. It's actually a very interesting subject altogether with human sexuality.
NSFW:
The History of Sex
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6guJn9EbPjI
About an hour long special dealing with Pompeii, but the entire series does a decent job in grappling with sex. I'd recommend anyone interested in sex to watch it. There's books out there on these subjects as well, but this I feel gives the best overview for people, although it's not perfect obviously.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
So who decides where the boundary between acceptable and disturbing lies? Sex in the missionary position for the purpose of procreation is one thing, but what about other things? Oral? Anal? Multiple partners for the people into that? I think we can definitely rule out SWAP.avi or 2girls1cup, but where's the middle ground? What set of Moral Guardians makes these decisions? What specific disadvantage is there to acknowledging this stuff exists and giving them a proper education on it, rather than letting them come across it on their own?
IMHO, porn is not bad per se. The industry is as good as any other for entertainment. What I see wrong are some abusive porn producers that look for poor latin/east-european/south-asian young girls, make some "casting" videos and treat them like ☺☺☺☺ for the viewer's pleasure. Sure it isn't illegal, but I find it morally bad.
But porn per se is not bad. I see a lot of porn.
[Clan Flamingo]
The clan for custom card creators!
I think it's mostly because in Christianity and probably other religious, masturbation is a sin since your not reproducing.
I think most of the people that are against porn are against it because it can cause addiction and corrupt children that see it. They think they're getting an idea of what real sex is all about, when they really aren't. Others are against it because some companies try to make 18 year old girls look younger than they are, and even wax off the pubic hair. TBH when I first saw porn I thought it was normal to wax those areas regardless
It's not a sin depending on what you're thinking about. Masturbation by itself just makes you unclean, but if you think about someone other than your spouse then you're committing adultery in your mind.
I think the main reason, though, is the idea that porn is an example of letting your instincts control you, instead of you controlling them.
Currently Playing:
UW UW Control
WR Tempered Steel
GR Valakut Ramp
G Elves
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary