The flood of “fake news” this election season got support from a sophisticated Russian propaganda campaign that created and spread misleading articles online with the goal of punishing Democrat Hillary Clinton, helping Republican Donald Trump and undermining faith in American democracy, say independent researchers who tracked the operation.
Russia’s increasingly sophisticated propaganda machinery — including thousands of botnets, teams of paid human “trolls,” and networks of Web sites and social-media accounts — echoed and amplified right-wing sites across the Internet as they portrayed Clinton as a criminal hiding potentially fatal health problems and preparing to hand control of the nation to a shadowy cabal of global financiers. The effort also sought to heighten the appearance of international tensions and promote fear of looming hostilities with nuclear-armed Russia.
Hey all, been gone for awhile, and then I saw this today and... I don't even know man. This has been a pretty ridiculous election year and now this? Forget being down 2 million votes, now we're in pseudo-Manchurian candidate territory here.
Thoughts? What do we, as a country, do when our elections get attacked?
I think our country is divided so much politically that even if there was an obvious propaganda attack the Republican side would argue there wasn't. It's sad but the problem is the me me me mentality in this country. We have a global economy and society.
I believe this propaganda machine Russia is building will make a lot of people upset in Washington. The real answer will be how does a divided country react to having the rug removed from under it? Will people unite together or continue to bicker about petty differences?
That will be the test of the united states going forward and any future candidate. Will they try to unite us as one country or prey on petty differences? If they do the latter the usa will go farther behind.
This strikes me as liberal birtherism. They can't accept that Trump will be president so they grasp for anything that delegitimises him instead of forming any kind of ideological opposition.
I'm sorry, but "I don't want you to be president, prove to me you're allowed to be president" is a world away from "I don't want you to be president, and here's evidence that a foreign power helped you get the presidency".
This strikes me as liberal birtherism. They can't accept that Trump will be president so they grasp for anything that delegitimises him instead of forming any kind of ideological opposition.
I'm sorry, but "I don't want you to be president, prove to me you're allowed to be president" is a world away from "I don't want you to be president, and here's evidence that a foreign power helped you get the presidency".
This. It's not something made up with no grounds for evidence, this is something that is exceedingly concerning for the US people if true. I would hope that they wouldn't throw such a bold accusation without hard evidence, but it's really hard to tell. But it's a lot more concerning if accurate than the nonsense that the conservative party tried to stir up about Obama if that had been accurate. Given everything else surrounding Trump and Russia it seems at least somewhat likely to be accurate, but hopefully that's not the case.
Even if it doesn't turn out to be pushed by Russia, the fact that we're living in a society where people can make a living coming up with and selling completely fake news to the entire world is kind of worrying.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
Even if it doesn't turn out to be pushed by Russia, the fact that we're living in a society where people can make a living coming up with and selling completely fake news to the entire world is kind of worrying.
Not the entire world as NPR interviewed one of the guys who trafficks in fake news said "We've tried to do similar things to liberals. It just has never worked, it never takes off. You'll get debunked within the first two comments and then the whole thing just kind of fizzles out"
The evidence here comes at the tail end of other evidence I've read during this campaign. The DHS/DNI letter was my big big wake up call, and this whole "fake news" thing that people started talking about after the election, and then to find out multiple research teams have been tracking how it was lead by the Russian government with the goal to get a more pliant leader for my country? Makes that time he asked Russia to keep hacking us seem a lot worse (and it wasn't exactly roses at the time)
This is some scary stuff man Reagan would be spinning in his grave if he knew that the Republican Party just sold out to Russia to win an election. Or even worse, if they got legit played.
This is some scary stuff man Reagan would be spinning in his grave if he knew that the Republican Party just sold out to Russia to win an election. Or even worse, if they got legit played.
Yeah, it's like we entered the Twilight Zone or something. True, Dubya talked a bit chummy about Putin at the outset, but that was a combination of his general good-naturedness and Putin's initial pro-Western overtures. For a xenophobic isolationist Republican in 2016 to act like the Russian strongman is friendly to America is just... upside-down. That's supposed to be the sort of naïve bleating coming out of the Jill Steins of the world.
At least Pence and Romney still talk tough about Russia.
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():
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I am certainly afraid of fake news. I try to stick to good sites like NPR to avoid it.
Another way to fix this is education in healthy critical thinking/skepticism
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():
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Even if it doesn't turn out to be pushed by Russia, the fact that we're living in a society where people can make a living coming up with and selling completely fake news to the entire world is kind of worrying.
Not the entire world as NPR interviewed one of the guys who trafficks in fake news said "We've tried to do similar things to liberals. It just has never worked, it never takes off. You'll get debunked within the first two comments and then the whole thing just kind of fizzles out."
It depends on which liberals they sell to and how subtle those selling a fake story go about it. From my experience in the Green Party, there are left-leaning people with rabid confirmation bias to match the conservatives that fall for these sort of things and then spread them like gospel. Granted there are likely not as many (and no, this problem is not exclusive to the Green Party; that part of the base just attracts more attention ). But from the outside looking in, fooling the left is a lot easier with stories that slant towards their biases rather than outright cater to them through lies. The stories that muddle the truth with a lie rather than try to sell a lie catches on in the left quite well and can reshape public opinion.
The issue is that the year 2016 damaged the mass media, and most of it comes from the collusion between the major media networks, the DNC, and the Clinton campaign through the Wikileaks... which are also connected to Russia. If the conservative base was gullible before, the damage from this election season will likely rattle the liberal trust in institutions in the years to come.
Private Mod Note
():
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
This is some scary stuff man Reagan would be spinning in his grave if he knew that the Republican Party just sold out to Russia to win an election. Or even worse, if they got legit played.
Yeah, it's like we entered the Twilight Zone or something. True, Dubya talked a bit chummy about Putin at the outset, but that was a combination of his general good-naturedness and Putin's initial pro-Western overtures. For a xenophobic isolationist Republican in 2016 to act like the Russian strongman is friendly to America is just... upside-down. That's supposed to be the sort of naïve bleating coming out of the Jill Steins of the world.
At least Pence and Romney still talk tough about Russia.
This is baffling to me, too, dude. We're so afraid of so many countries for some many things, but the ex-KGB officer who has been either officially or de facto in charge for... 17 years? That's the guy we can trust.
I mean, at least Putin isn't Hillary Clinton, I hear she kills her political opponents and even journalists sometimes!
Really, the big question mark is to what extent Vice President Pence and hypothetical-Secretary-of-State Romney will be the policy-setters on Russia. If Trump is just an uninterested slacker like he is on so many other issues, things may not be completely messed up. But if he's really in Russia's pocket, either directly or just through business interest, then he has the power to override them.
Really, the big question mark is to what extent Vice President Pence and hypothetical-Secretary-of-State Romney will be the policy-setters on Russia. If Trump is just an uninterested slacker like he is on so many other issues, things may not be completely messed up. But if he's really in Russia's pocket, either directly or just through business interest, then he has the power to override them.
Don't count on Romney making it to Secretary of State. Kellyane Conway, Mike Huckabee, and a few others (I think?) have been piling on political pressure on live TV for Trump to remove Romney from all considerations for his scorched earth approach to Trump in the primaries.
Private Mod Note
():
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Even if it doesn't turn out to be pushed by Russia, the fact that we're living in a society where people can make a living coming up with and selling completely fake news to the entire world is kind of worrying.
Not the entire world as NPR interviewed one of the guys who trafficks in fake news said "We've tried to do similar things to liberals. It just has never worked, it never takes off. You'll get debunked within the first two comments and then the whole thing just kind of fizzles out"
Yeah, not so fast. There are basically two things that separate Facebook/Twitter groups from the Associated Press: 1) An obscure journalistic ethical creed (ha, ha), and 2) the legal liability of the profit-making news industry for libel, so on. And the second is easy enough to get around by making sure that no one has standing to sue (no names mentioned, limiting issues, so on).
If it doesn’t make you uncomfortable that an organization like the Associated Press exists, whose basic function is to take one journalist’s word on it and circulate it to all participating news outlets, then your bias is showing. Remember, the AP has done things like eliminate use of the term “illegal immigrant” from its style guide, as if to falsely say that unlawful presence is not illegal.
Also, let me just remind everyone of the anti-vaxers, food purists, people like the FoodBabe, so on, who have absolutely no claim on truth whatsoever, but go out in broad daylight pushing their views as scientific and fact-based. You mean to tell me that doesn’t catch on? How many subscribers does the Food Babe have on Facebook? It’s absolutely insane to believe that false news doesn’t sell to the left. Much more dangerous, falsehoods seem like they’re ultimately harder to challenge when they are under that tent, because the usual guardians of mainstream ideas just elect to let these individuals have a pass.
Bottom line, bias kills truth. When people start to believe that bias from one side is needed to combat bias of the other side, fighting fire with fire so to speak, it gives rise to the exact cultural conditions of this election. The most vulnerable segments of society have stopped listening to the more vigilant segments, precisely because they’ve stopped their vigilance.
In a hundred years, (assuming we make it that long) today's America will solidly be seen as a prime example of fascism. It didn't matter who won, our country is controlled by special interests and corporations with no since of nationality. They provide us the puppets to vote for and we exercise our illusion of freedom by voting.
There's a nuanced argument for why a person who is here without papers is not here illigally and why calling a person "illigal" is a dehuminzation of the individual.
That argument isn't nuanced. It's a mash-up of disparate legal and ethical principles which is attacking at least three strawmen I can see offhand. Most obviously, it argues against the term 'illegal alien', but the term Jusstice used was 'illegal immigrant' -- and as the article itself acknowledges, "the act of entering the country" (also known as 'immigration') "without inspection is a federal misdemeanor".
So... we'll chalk that one up as a swing and a miss.
I've yet to see any substantive evidence that this has infiltrated the left's core the way it has on the right. It could happen, but I don't think it has.
See? That's more reasonable. (Provided by "left" you mean "American Democrats and allies". Because when you get to the hard left... well, y'know.)
This is one problem with the corporate media in America, here in Australia and other western places, it demonises Russia for anything it can. Russia is playing by international law the US is not. A lot of the alternative-media "fake" is on the side of Russia, but it is not "Russia all along".
There are quite a few differences that the 2 different medias are telling:
ISIS is an evil terror group/ISIS is a CIA funded puppet
Assad used chemical weapons/Rebel groups used chemical weapons
Australia accidentally bombed Assad during Cease fire/Australia purposefully did it to allow ISIS to gain ground
9/11 was caused by Hijackers/Bombs were also used in towers
WOMD/America n allies funded terrorists
Wikileaks is a hacker terrorist/Hillarys emails reveling PizzaGate
*(If you don't know what PizzaGate is please go search it up! I do not want to discuss it here)*
***Where is Assange/Proof of Life???***
Russia is a propaganda machine/Main stream corporate media is a propaganda machine
...there are probably lots of other examples in how they differ.
I think there is almost enough for a war to explode soon. I was hoping with Trump getting in things might settle with Russia, but he is not in yet, and I guess they will escalate things all they can before he gets in. Especially with this new action by Turkey.
I just want to say that in my opinion the main stream media are not to be believed, they want war and to cover up the mess left by Hillary's emails!!! It is not Russia!!!
This is a long read, but it points out that the fake news problem is largely a combination of people trusting huge sites like google and facebook too much, with a side order of people gaming the algorithms of those sites for ideological reasons. This gaming of the system has the practical effect of creating an extremist internet running parallel to actual reality.
As far as Pizzagate goes, the whole thing feels like a 4chan /pol/ op. Anyone remember #NotRealSuffering? because I'm getting the same vibes.
EDIT: Snopes says it's bull*****, which may or may not convince people.
Apparently the source was actually Reddit. My mistake.
Update: the CIA have decided that Russia did interfere with US democracy to get Trump elected. Previously they only believed Russia's goal was the disruption of democratic processes and the lowering of US confidence. [link]
The CIA shared its latest assessment with key senators in a closed-door briefing on Capitol Hill last week, in which agency officials cited a growing body of intelligence from multiple sources. Agency briefers told the senators it was now “quite clear” that electing Trump was Russia’s goal, according to the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.
@Hackworth
Yep, so, Russia wanted a candidate that would work with them instead of wanting to go to war with them... Good!!!
Still the emails were not hacked by Russia, admitted by Julian Assange n Snowden. Still waiting on signs of life for Assange...
As far as Pizzagate goes, the whole thing feels like a 4chan /pol/ op
Your feelings do not disprove anything. I think there should be a proper investigation into this, which the government atm seems reluctant to do.
I do not wish to go into the details of all on here, but fear the debate might lead to this....
There are symbols on the Pizza logos that are FBI recognized symbols for pedophiles, there is too much 'weird' code language that is close to FBI pedophile language. There are pictures of kids with sex beads around them and #chickenlover hashtag... to pass this off as a 4chan op is a joke to these children, and a joke to intelligence!
@BS
Bias is what motivates lies (and omissions, which can be just as dangerous).
This is probably the most reasonable thing I have heard you say!!!
@Hackworth
Yep, so, Russia wanted a candidate that would work with them instead of wanting to go to war with them... Good!!!
Has it occurred to you that Russia might want to intentionally make it look like they would start a war with Clinton to favour Trump in order to help their actual agenda?
Because that seems like quite a plausible idea to me.
And both the CIA and FBI agreed that Russia deliberately interfered in this election.
So what if Russia DID try to influence our election that does not mean...
A. They Succeeded
B. They were doing anything different then other countries
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As humans, we have a tendency to cling to ideologies. Any positive set of beliefs can quickly turn malevolent once treated as ideology and not an honest intellectual or experiential pursuit of greater truth. Ideology does in entire economic systems and countries, causes religions to massacre thousands, turns human rights movements into authoritarian sects and makes fools out of humanity’s most brilliant minds. Einstein famously wasted the second half of his career trying to calculate a cosmological constant that didn’t exist because “God doesn’t play dice.”
Hey all, been gone for awhile, and then I saw this today and... I don't even know man. This has been a pretty ridiculous election year and now this? Forget being down 2 million votes, now we're in pseudo-Manchurian candidate territory here.
Thoughts? What do we, as a country, do when our elections get attacked?
I believe this propaganda machine Russia is building will make a lot of people upset in Washington. The real answer will be how does a divided country react to having the rug removed from under it? Will people unite together or continue to bicker about petty differences?
That will be the test of the united states going forward and any future candidate. Will they try to unite us as one country or prey on petty differences? If they do the latter the usa will go farther behind.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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This. It's not something made up with no grounds for evidence, this is something that is exceedingly concerning for the US people if true. I would hope that they wouldn't throw such a bold accusation without hard evidence, but it's really hard to tell. But it's a lot more concerning if accurate than the nonsense that the conservative party tried to stir up about Obama if that had been accurate. Given everything else surrounding Trump and Russia it seems at least somewhat likely to be accurate, but hopefully that's not the case.
Art is life itself.
Not the entire world as NPR interviewed one of the guys who trafficks in fake news said "We've tried to do similar things to liberals. It just has never worked, it never takes off. You'll get debunked within the first two comments and then the whole thing just kind of fizzles out"
The evidence here comes at the tail end of other evidence I've read during this campaign. The DHS/DNI letter was my big big wake up call, and this whole "fake news" thing that people started talking about after the election, and then to find out multiple research teams have been tracking how it was lead by the Russian government with the goal to get a more pliant leader for my country? Makes that time he asked Russia to keep hacking us seem a lot worse (and it wasn't exactly roses at the time)
This is some scary stuff man
At least Pence and Romney still talk tough about Russia.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Another way to fix this is education in healthy critical thinking/skepticism
WMy other, WIP casual deck: Zero to Hero
Protection from Will-O'-the-Wisps, Ali-from-Cairos, and Uncle-Istvans
Legendary snow landwalk
---------------------------------------
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It depends on which liberals they sell to and how subtle those selling a fake story go about it. From my experience in the Green Party, there are left-leaning people with rabid confirmation bias to match the conservatives that fall for these sort of things and then spread them like gospel. Granted there are likely not as many (and no, this problem is not exclusive to the Green Party; that part of the base just attracts more attention
The issue is that the year 2016 damaged the mass media, and most of it comes from the collusion between the major media networks, the DNC, and the Clinton campaign through the Wikileaks... which are also connected to Russia. If the conservative base was gullible before, the damage from this election season will likely rattle the liberal trust in institutions in the years to come.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
And McCain, for that matter, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1IS38JIFY4 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/a-trump-administration-thaw-with-russia-is-unacceptable-mccain-says/2016/11/15/a3b5c4da-ab5a-11e6-8b45-f8e493f06fcd_story.html
This is baffling to me, too, dude. We're so afraid of so many countries for some many things, but the ex-KGB officer who has been either officially or de facto in charge for... 17 years? That's the guy we can trust.
I mean, at least Putin isn't Hillary Clinton, I hear she kills her political opponents and even journalists sometimes!
Really, the big question mark is to what extent Vice President Pence and hypothetical-Secretary-of-State Romney will be the policy-setters on Russia. If Trump is just an uninterested slacker like he is on so many other issues, things may not be completely messed up. But if he's really in Russia's pocket, either directly or just through business interest, then he has the power to override them.
The fact that he very specifically changed the GOP platform's statements on Russia is ominous. (Although Manafort was still his campaign chairman then.)
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Don't count on Romney making it to Secretary of State. Kellyane Conway, Mike Huckabee, and a few others (I think?) have been piling on political pressure on live TV for Trump to remove Romney from all considerations for his scorched earth approach to Trump in the primaries.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Yeah, not so fast. There are basically two things that separate Facebook/Twitter groups from the Associated Press: 1) An obscure journalistic ethical creed (ha, ha), and 2) the legal liability of the profit-making news industry for libel, so on. And the second is easy enough to get around by making sure that no one has standing to sue (no names mentioned, limiting issues, so on).
If it doesn’t make you uncomfortable that an organization like the Associated Press exists, whose basic function is to take one journalist’s word on it and circulate it to all participating news outlets, then your bias is showing. Remember, the AP has done things like eliminate use of the term “illegal immigrant” from its style guide, as if to falsely say that unlawful presence is not illegal.
Also, let me just remind everyone of the anti-vaxers, food purists, people like the FoodBabe, so on, who have absolutely no claim on truth whatsoever, but go out in broad daylight pushing their views as scientific and fact-based. You mean to tell me that doesn’t catch on? How many subscribers does the Food Babe have on Facebook? It’s absolutely insane to believe that false news doesn’t sell to the left. Much more dangerous, falsehoods seem like they’re ultimately harder to challenge when they are under that tent, because the usual guardians of mainstream ideas just elect to let these individuals have a pass.
Bottom line, bias kills truth. When people start to believe that bias from one side is needed to combat bias of the other side, fighting fire with fire so to speak, it gives rise to the exact cultural conditions of this election. The most vulnerable segments of society have stopped listening to the more vigilant segments, precisely because they’ve stopped their vigilance.
Edit: A good piece on the agenda driven Post
https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/02/the-jonathan-capehart-saga-or-why-progressives-hav.html
In a hundred years, (assuming we make it that long) today's America will solidly be seen as a prime example of fascism. It didn't matter who won, our country is controlled by special interests and corporations with no since of nationality. They provide us the puppets to vote for and we exercise our illusion of freedom by voting.
So... we'll chalk that one up as a swing and a miss.
I have a hard time believing you were able to type that with a straight face.
See? That's more reasonable. (Provided by "left" you mean "American Democrats and allies". Because when you get to the hard left... well, y'know.)
Bias is what motivates lies (and omissions, which can be just as dangerous).
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Right now Turkey is invading Syria in order to over throw Assad. This could lead them to war with Russia and NATO backing... WW3.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkey-invades-syria-to-remove-bashar-al-assad/5559629
Which is illegal under UN law. The western media will praise this and the alt-media will see this as an act of war.
There are quite a few differences that the 2 different medias are telling:
ISIS is an evil terror group/ISIS is a CIA funded puppet
Assad used chemical weapons/Rebel groups used chemical weapons
Australia accidentally bombed Assad during Cease fire/Australia purposefully did it to allow ISIS to gain ground
9/11 was caused by Hijackers/Bombs were also used in towers
WOMD/America n allies funded terrorists
Wikileaks is a hacker terrorist/Hillarys emails reveling PizzaGate
*(If you don't know what PizzaGate is please go search it up! I do not want to discuss it here)*
***Where is Assange/Proof of Life???***
Russia is a propaganda machine/Main stream corporate media is a propaganda machine
...there are probably lots of other examples in how they differ.
I think there is almost enough for a war to explode soon. I was hoping with Trump getting in things might settle with Russia, but he is not in yet, and I guess they will escalate things all they can before he gets in. Especially with this new action by Turkey.
I just want to say that in my opinion the main stream media are not to be believed, they want war and to cover up the mess left by Hillary's emails!!! It is not Russia!!!
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As far as Pizzagate goes, the whole thing feels like a 4chan /pol/ op. Anyone remember #NotRealSuffering? because I'm getting the same vibes.
EDIT: Snopes says it's bull*****, which may or may not convince people.
Apparently the source was actually Reddit. My mistake.
Update: the CIA have decided that Russia did interfere with US democracy to get Trump elected. Previously they only believed Russia's goal was the disruption of democratic processes and the lowering of US confidence. [link]
Art is life itself.
Yep, so, Russia wanted a candidate that would work with them instead of wanting to go to war with them... Good!!!
Still the emails were not hacked by Russia, admitted by Julian Assange n Snowden. Still waiting on signs of life for Assange...
Your feelings do not disprove anything. I think there should be a proper investigation into this, which the government atm seems reluctant to do.
I do not wish to go into the details of all on here, but fear the debate might lead to this....
There are symbols on the Pizza logos that are FBI recognized symbols for pedophiles, there is too much 'weird' code language that is close to FBI pedophile language. There are pictures of kids with sex beads around them and #chickenlover hashtag... to pass this off as a 4chan op is a joke to these children, and a joke to intelligence!
@BS
This is probably the most reasonable thing I have heard you say!!!
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Has it occurred to you that Russia might want to intentionally make it look like they would start a war with Clinton to favour Trump in order to help their actual agenda?
Because that seems like quite a plausible idea to me.
And both the CIA and FBI agreed that Russia deliberately interfered in this election.
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So what if Russia DID try to influence our election that does not mean...
A. They Succeeded
B. They were doing anything different then other countries
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.