I believe social media, mainstream media, television and the internet do a very good job of silencing opinions they don't like. This leads people to believe that everyone (the overwhelming majority) thinks the same - that everyone is on the same page. On the night of the election, you could see just how shocked every news anchor (and comedians like Trevor Noah) were.
Now, sure, some people were shocked on Nov. 8 because of the echo chamber. The Huffington Post projected a Clinton win with 99% confidence -- that was clearly bull. But some people were shocked because the result was legitimately shocking. Polling data are not an echo chamber, and they really did favor Clinton from beginning to end. Trump himself has said that he went into Election Day expecting to lose. And, of course, Trump did lose the popular vote; the polls weren't that far from wrong.
Were there people out there who were confident Trump would win? Oh yes. The Huffington Post may have given Clinton 99% odds, but I also saw Trump supporters projecting that he would be the first candidate to sweep all fifty states. They could only be so confident by being in their own echo chamber: one which insulated them from the data or told them to ignore them. This echo chamber also had to downplay Trump's naked self-interest, his utter contempt for facts, and his myriad failings as a human being while at the same time spinning Hillary Clinton into a criminal mastermind on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. So considering one echo chamber elected a man totally unfit for the White House, while the other chamber merely thought that guy would lose, no points for guessing which one I'm more concerned about right now.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I believe social media, mainstream media, television and the internet do a very good job of silencing opinions they don't like. This leads people to believe that everyone (the overwhelming majority) thinks the same - that everyone is on the same page. On the night of the election, you could see just how shocked every news anchor (and comedians like Trevor Noah) were. I think the same of this forum - if you drive out everyone potentially guilty of wrongthink, you've only tricked yourself. I also believe (per another thread) that hitting people with the racist or bigot stick on every topic or repeatedly demonizing white people simply shuts down the conversation. In this very thread alone there's many negative comments demonizing white people - that's acceptable racism.
So the "revelation" was that polling in a few states was off by a percentage point or two? Wow, what a revelation! World-shattering!
I believe social media, mainstream media, television and the internet do a very good job of silencing opinions they don't like. This leads people to believe that everyone (the overwhelming majority) thinks the same - that everyone is on the same page. On the night of the election, you could see just how shocked every news anchor (and comedians like Trevor Noah) were. I think the same of this forum - if you drive out everyone potentially guilty of wrongthink, you've only tricked yourself. I also believe (per another thread) that hitting people with the racist or bigot stick on every topic or repeatedly demonizing white people simply shuts down the conversation. In this very thread alone there's many negative comments demonizing white people - that's acceptable racism.
Yeah, I read about 2 years ago about Facebook selecting out your news feed based on its algorithm’s perception of your opinion. I recall feeling disillusioned at the time that companies would rather sell you a sense of reinforcement of your own beliefs than do their jobs as media outlets of exposing you to news. But, I wasn’t really sure at the time how that danger would manifest itself, exactly.
Now, 2016 has happened, and all the HuffPost readers are facepalming. Bright side, I know a lot of people who have stopped going to those outlets that had everything so incredibly wrong. But, the underlying issue still is that the internet makes it too easy to ignore people you don’t agree with.
I believe social media, mainstream media, television and the internet do a very good job of silencing opinions they don't like. This leads people to believe that everyone (the overwhelming majority) thinks the same - that everyone is on the same page. On the night of the election, you could see just how shocked every news anchor (and comedians like Trevor Noah) were. I think the same of this forum - if you drive out everyone potentially guilty of wrongthink, you've only tricked yourself. I also believe (per another thread) that hitting people with the racist or bigot stick on every topic or repeatedly demonizing white people simply shuts down the conversation. In this very thread alone there's many negative comments demonizing white people - that's acceptable racism.
So the "revelation" was that polling in a few states was off by a percentage point or two? Wow, what a revelation! World-shattering!
Why are you talking about polling data?
The shocking revelation that despite all the things he's said, the things he's done and the principles he campaigned on, a staggering amount of people voted for him (and enough in the right places to win an election.) The very IDEA that he'll be in the white house.
The echo chamber in social media is not smear articles and polling. Its people all nodding their head in agreement on (all of the issues involved) repeating the same views back to each other (echo... echo..) because they've stomped out the opposing view, thus lead to believe nobody like Trump could get elected. Because that's racist. And that's sexist. And that's xenophobic. And everyone cares about polar bears. Right? Right.
The shocking revelation that despite all the things he's said, the things he's done and the principles he campaigned on, a staggering amount of people voted for him (and enough in the right places to win an election.) The very IDEA that he'll be in the white house.
The echo chamber in social media is not smear articles and polling. Its people all nodding their head in agreement on (all of the issues involved) repeating the same views back to each other (echo... echo..) because they've stomped out the opposing view, thus lead to believe nobody like Trump could get elected. Because that's racist. And that's sexist. And that's xenophobic. And everyone cares about polar bears. Right? Right.
That is, the revelation.
Everyone always knew a staggering amount of people would vote for him. The only question was whether he'd be soundly defeated or squeak out a win. The polling data suggested the former was more likely. That's why people believed he wouldn't be elected - because the evidence supported that conclusion.
The shocking revelation that despite all the things he's said, the things he's done and the principles he campaigned on, a staggering amount of people voted for him (and enough in the right places to win an election.) The very IDEA that he'll be in the white house.
The echo chamber in social media is not smear articles and polling. Its people all nodding their head in agreement on (all of the issues involved) repeating the same views back to each other (echo... echo..) because they've stomped out the opposing view, thus lead to believe nobody like Trump could get elected. Because that's racist. And that's sexist. And that's xenophobic. And everyone cares about polar bears. Right? Right.
That is, the revelation.
Everyone always knew a staggering amount of people would vote for him. The only question was whether he'd be soundly defeated or squeak out a win. The polling data suggested the former was more likely. That's why people believed he wouldn't be elected - because the evidence supported that conclusion.
I think we are on two totally separate ideas. I am speaking of the shock and awe felt (around the world actually) that America actually elected a man like Trump despite him doing and saying things that are now socially unacceptable. I am speaking in regard to millions of posts quoting "What am I going to tell my daughter?" and "America really is racist". I am speaking of celebrities, talk show hosts and television anchors blatantly saying they are shocked we elected a "racist sexist xenophobic" president. Not just immediately following the election, but even as the states turned colors.
Its the revelation that many people either feel that way OR they don't see that as something that would discourage them from voting for him.
If you are selling the idea that the masses were ONLY shocked BECAUSE the poll data suggested otherwise, then you've got your head in the sand. Or you're just being flippant.
I think we are on two totally separate ideas. I am speaking of the shock and awe felt (around the world actually) that America actually elected a man like Trump despite him doing and saying things that are now socially unacceptable. I am speaking in regard to millions of posts quoting "What am I going to tell my daughter?" and "America really is racist". I am speaking of celebrities, talk show hosts and television anchors blatantly saying they are shocked we elected a "racist sexist xenophobic" president. Not just immediately following the election, but even as the states turned colors.
Its the revelation that many people either feel that way OR they don't see that as something that would discourage them from voting for him.
If you are selling the idea that the masses were ONLY shocked BECAUSE the poll data suggested otherwise, then you've got your head in the sand. Or you're just being flippant.
America would be just as racist if Trump had received a few ten thousand fewer votes in the right places and lost the presidency. The worry people express about what to tell their children isn't a revelation - we all already knew America is racist. The surprise was the that the polls were off, not that millions of people are happy to support racism.
America would be just as racist if Trump had received a few ten thousand fewer votes in the right places and lost the presidency. The worry people express about what to tell their children isn't a revelation - we all already knew America is racist. The surprise was the that the polls were off, not that millions of people are happy to support racism.
The problem is that Donald Trump's election has sent a message in the political world that to pretend to solve racism is no longer a priority. The uptick in hate crimes post election also shows that racists in the general population have be emboldened as well. Even Dylan Roof's massacre did not have as a long lasting effect (that I have been informed of. I know there was a wave of hate crime and church burning, but that went down unlike Donald Trump's election because it's going to be around for four years max).
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I think we are on two totally separate ideas. I am speaking of the shock and awe felt (around the world actually) that America actually elected a man like Trump despite him doing and saying things that are now socially unacceptable. I am speaking in regard to millions of posts quoting "What am I going to tell my daughter?" and "America really is racist". I am speaking of celebrities, talk show hosts and television anchors blatantly saying they are shocked we elected a "racist sexist xenophobic" president. Not just immediately following the election, but even as the states turned colors.
Its the revelation that many people either feel that way OR they don't see that as something that would discourage them from voting for him.
If you are selling the idea that the masses were ONLY shocked BECAUSE the poll data suggested otherwise, then you've got your head in the sand. Or you're just being flippant.
America would be just as racist if Trump had received a few ten thousand fewer votes in the right places and lost the presidency. The worry people express about what to tell their children isn't a revelation - we all already knew America is racist. The surprise was the that the polls were off, not that millions of people are happy to support racism.
You all did? Who all? MTGS? A handful of debate posters who spend time pouring over the internet for data? Or literally everyone - including all white people - and all white people who rarely have to deal with race issues unless someone's in their face about it or rioting in a far away city? They all knew? Knew something more than a mob of people are busy destroying their own neighborhood and behaving terribly?
How about my original post - the one that you replied to acting like a bitter jerk, spouting about polls I never mentioned
I believe social media, mainstream media, television and the internet do a very good job of silencing opinions they don't like. This leads people to believe that everyone (the overwhelming majority) thinks the same - that everyone is on the same page. On the night of the election, you could see just how shocked every news anchor (and comedians like Trevor Noah) were. I think the same of this forum - if you drive out everyone potentially guilty of wrongthink, you've only tricked yourself. I also believe (per another thread) that hitting people with the racist or bigot stick on every topic or repeatedly demonizing white people simply shuts down the conversation. In this very thread alone there's many negative comments demonizing white people - that's acceptable racism.
Here's my points so you don't fabricate any:
-I believe social media, mainstream media, television and the internet do a very good job of silencing opinions they don't like
-This leads people to believe that everyone (the overwhelming majority) thinks the same - that everyone is on the same page
-If you drive out everyone potentially guilty of wrongthink, you've only tricked yourself
-I also believe (per another thread) that hitting people with the racist or bigot stick on every topic or repeatedly demonizing white people simply shuts down the conversation.
-In this very thread alone there's many negative comments demonizing white people - that's acceptable racism.
I believe social media, mainstream media, television and the internet do a very good job of silencing opinions they don't like. This leads people to believe that everyone (the overwhelming majority) thinks the same - that everyone is on the same page. On the night of the election, you could see just how shocked every news anchor (and comedians like Trevor Noah) were.
Now, sure, some people were shocked on Nov. 8 because of the echo chamber. The Huffington Post projected a Clinton win with 99% confidence -- that was clearly bull. But some people were shocked because the result was legitimately shocking. Polling data are not an echo chamber, and they really did favor Clinton from beginning to end. Trump himself has said that he went into Election Day expecting to lose. And, of course, Trump did lose the popular vote; the polls weren't that far from wrong.
Were there people out there who were confident Trump would win? Oh yes. The Huffington Post may have given Clinton 99% odds, but I also saw Trump supporters projecting that he would be the first candidate to sweep all fifty states. They could only be so confident by being in their own echo chamber: one which insulated them from the data or told them to ignore them. This echo chamber also had to downplay Trump's naked self-interest, his utter contempt for facts, and his myriad failings as a human being while at the same time spinning Hillary Clinton into a criminal mastermind on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. So considering one echo chamber elected a man totally unfit for the White House, while the other chamber merely thought that guy would lose, no points for guessing which one I'm more concerned about right now.
I suppose I tend to lump twitter in with MSN commentary - full of trolls protected by the internet. But an example to my thinking is say, your real face book account. If you posted half of the things he's been critisized for, you'd likely have real life consquences for it. People would de-friend you. People would flame you (hell, you can be mobbed for posting that you don't support oxycontin subs). Its not unthinkable to get a thousand negative comments or more for a socially unacceptable statement. Maybe ten thousand comments. You might have to shut down your face book. You could certainly get fired for it. If its bad enough, your post might even be on the front page of MSN, or on Ellen's show. This applies to the workplace, or even the bar. Nobody dares tell a racial joke or make a bigoted statement. When someone does, I'm thinking "Ummmm you can get fired for that..."
I do think this leads (some) people to believe that everyone in society (or at least everyone they know on FB, or at the office, or people around them) are on the same page. Then comes a man who says whatever he damn pleases (and has no experience in politics) and guess what... he won a presidential election. You really wouldn't think that possible, given you could be fired for the same statements he makes. You really wouldn't think there's THAT MANY out there either.
My reference to MTGS is because its not really that different. There's a long list of things (or views) you dare not express because you know exactly whats going to happen (say, immigration, abortion or... CLIMATE CHANGE ROFL!) Its either going to be the racist bat, the bigot stick or the dunce hat. And once anyone retaining the last of conservative views is gone, what's left? A group of people just nodding in agreement - like an echo chamber. How much is really achieved?
You all did? Who all? MTGS? A handful of debate posters who spend time pouring over the internet for data? Or literally everyone - including all white people - and all white people who rarely have to deal with race issues unless someone's in their face about it or rioting in a far away city? They all knew? Knew something more than a mob of people are busy destroying their own neighborhood and behaving terribly?
"All" is in the people who are now worried about what to tell their children. The people who have enough social consciousness to understand the threat Trump poses already understood the nature of race in America. The people who don't understand aren't the people you described as saying, "What am I going to tell my daughter?" and "America really is racist".
How about my original post - the one that you replied to acting like a bitter jerk, spouting about polls I never mentioned
-I believe social media, mainstream media, television and the internet do a very good job of silencing opinions they don't like
Really, you think the internet, home of everything from Stormfront to Tumblr, is good at silencing people?
-This leads people to believe that everyone (the overwhelming majority) thinks the same - that everyone is on the same page
I doubt many people are fooled. Do you really think more than a handful of crazies thought that either Trump or Clinton would win the "overwhelming majority" of votes? Everyone knows the country is divided. We see it constantly in the news.
-If you drive out everyone potentially guilty of wrongthink, you've only tricked yourself
I don't think you've tricked anyone.
-I also believe (per another thread) that hitting people with the racist or bigot stick on every topic or repeatedly demonizing white people simply shuts down the conversation.
As I said in that other thread, this is dangerous, backwards, and only serves to legitimize racism.
-In this very thread alone there's many negative comments demonizing white people - that's acceptable racism.
-I also believe (per another thread) that hitting people with the racist or bigot stick on every topic or repeatedly demonizing white people simply shuts down the conversation.
As I said in that other thread, this is dangerous, backwards, and only serves to legitimize racism.
You aren't really addressing the concern here, Tiax. The concern is that people are abusing the concept of/word racism. And that's a legitimate concern, because people do actually do it. Whether it's a big concern or not, and where the instances of it are, is up to debate, but you can't just brush the concern aside like this. That's exactly the kind of attitude where this issue comes from.
You aren't really addressing the concern here, Tiax. The concern is that people are abusing the concept of/word racism. And that's a legitimate concern, because people do actually do it. Whether it's a big concern or not, and where the instances of it are, is up to debate, but you can't just brush the concern aside like this. That's exactly the kind of attitude where this issue comes from.
I'm not addressing the concern because it's frivolous. It's not a real problem. It's just a cover for racists.
I don't that's a helpful attitude you are expressing there.
It's the attitude that built this ******* country.
You may have learned in social studies class that the Founding Fathers didn't build a democracy, or a kingdom, or a dictatorship. They founded a republic, specifically one built around checks and balances. Did you ever stop to consider why that was? It's because they subscribed to two key concepts:
1. Through intelligent, informed, rational thought, they could build a better society.
2. People cannot be relied upon to behave in intelligent, informed, rational, and benevolent ways.
That second part is important, and they knew this first hand. They understood completely how easily the government could slip into a tyranny that disenfranchises people because they were rebelling against a tyrant who disenfranchised them! Therefore, they didn't put one man in charge, nor did they build a democracy where the majority vote would hold all the power. They deliberately crafted their government so no one person or organization would hold too much power because they knew that human beings cannot be relied upon to make informed, intelligent, rational, benevolent decisions. They formed their government accordingly, making it as difficult as possible for any one person or group to take power, knowing all the while that the possibility of a demagogue taking power was always a risk that needed to be vigilantly watched for.
And that's what we all lost sight of. We were foolish enough to lose sight of just how irrational, illogical, and without judgment people truly are when it comes to matters of the state and individual liberty. We thought that something like President Trump would never happen because we assumed that "these things just don't happen here," that modern America was somehow special and exempt. But we ignored the fact that every single thing that is exceptional about America - and make no mistake, America truly is special - was earned as a result of the decisions, dedication, hard work, and extreme sacrifice of every person who came before us, starting from the Founding Fathers; to the people who nobly sacrificed so much, including the their own lives and the lives of their family members, in order that this nation would be liberated from Great Britain; all the way to the Civil Rights movement and the present day. We forgot just how deeply rooted racism in this country is, because we enjoy all of the benefits of the Civil Rights movement.
We made the mistake of assuming that all of the things we enjoy were things that we could enjoy without ever doing any actual work for them. We assumed that all of the benefits we enjoy from victories of the Founding Fathers, the civil rights movements of the modern day, and everyone in between were the products of battles that had already been fought, not battles that we ourselves needed to continue fighting. And we now see the results of such naive notions.
So no, it is not an unhelpful attitude, it is a ******* fact, and ignoring it is what got us here. Reality is reality, and does not give a ***** about anyone's attempts at denial.
The echo chamber in social media is not smear articles and polling. Its people all nodding their head in agreement on (all of the issues involved) repeating the same views back to each other (echo... echo..) because they've stomped out the opposing view, thus lead to believe nobody like Trump could get elected.
But as stated, you're denying the idea that Trump supporters were in their own echo chamber.
Which is extremely important because...
Because that's racist. And that's sexist. And that's xenophobic.
... Trump is openly all of those things. Trump's statements are openly all of those things. Trump's proposed policies are openly all of those things.
The only way you could miss this is to be in an echo chamber.
We recently had a man open fire in a pizzeria because he believed a trending story on social media about a Democrat-run pedophilia ring - a conspiracy theory which has exactly zero validity and has been outright discredited by major news organizations.
And this is not the only false story that was circulated. This election will be defined by "fake news," which is a term I can't stand, because there's already a word for "fake news." It's "lying." You had deliberate lies all over social media claiming to be news articles, and people believed them despite ample evidence to the contrary. Multiple government agencies have outright stated that the Russians actually ran a propaganda campaign to influence our election, and yet people are still clinging to the validity of blatant lies.
Journalistic bias is absolutely a topic we should always been willing to discuss. But there is a mountain of difference between accusing someone of journalistic bias because they are biased, and dismissing someone due to perceived journalistic bias when they are pointing out actual facts because those facts go against your political views. Donald Trump ran a campaign of falsehoods, lied constantly, and the fact that he won indicates the willingness of people to completely ignore every single media source that told people that Trump was lying.
To clarify: that's not the news media trying to silence anybody. That's the news media actually doing its job.
You talk of being against echo chambers? Donald Trump's victory is the victory of the echo chamber.
My reference to MTGS is because its not really that different. There's a long list of things (or views) you dare not express because you know exactly whats going to happen (say, immigration, abortion or... CLIMATE CHANGE ROFL!) Its either going to be the racist bat, the bigot stick or the dunce hat. And once anyone retaining the last of conservative views is gone, what's left? A group of people just nodding in agreement - like an echo chamber. How much is really achieved?
Not to state the obvious, but this is the Debate section. Your views on immigration, abortion, and climate change are going to be challenged here, because that's the point. Everyone's views are challenged here. Does being challenged make you feel unwelcome? Would you rather we all just smile and accept your viewpoint uncritically? Do you think you might go find other forums where people will do that? Because if so, guess what: you're not condemning an echo chamber, you're looking for one.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I don't that's a helpful attitude you are expressing there.
It's the attitude that built this ******* country.
You may have learned in social studies class that the Founding Fathers didn't build a democracy, or a kingdom, or a dictatorship. They founded a republic, specifically one built around checks and balances. Did you ever stop to consider why that was? It's because they subscribed to two key concepts:
1. Through intelligent, informed, rational thought, they could build a better society.
2. People cannot be relied upon to behave in intelligent, informed, rational, and benevolent ways.
That second part is important, and they knew this first hand. They understood completely how easily the government could slip into a tyranny that disenfranchises people because they were rebelling against a tyrant who disenfranchised them! Therefore, they didn't put one man in charge, nor did they build a democracy where the majority vote would hold all the power. They deliberately crafted their government so no one person or organization would hold too much power because they knew that human beings cannot be relied upon to make informed, intelligent, rational, benevolent decisions. They formed their government accordingly, making it as difficult as possible for any one person or group to take power, knowing all the while that the possibility of a demagogue taking power was always a risk that needed to be vigilantly watched for.
And that's what we all lost sight of. We were foolish enough to lose sight of just how irrational, illogical, and without judgment people truly are when it comes to matters of the state and individual liberty. We thought that something like President Trump would never happen because we assumed that "these things just don't happen here," that modern America was somehow special and exempt. But we ignored the fact that every single thing that is exceptional about America - and make no mistake, America truly is special - was earned as a result of the decisions, dedication, hard work, and extreme sacrifice of every person who came before us, starting from the Founding Fathers; to the people who nobly sacrificed so much, including the their own lives and the lives of their family members, in order that this nation would be liberated from Great Britain; all the way to the Civil Rights movement and the present day. We forgot just how deeply rooted racism in this country is, because we enjoy all of the benefits of the Civil Rights movement.
We made the mistake of assuming that all of the things we enjoy were things that we could enjoy without ever doing any actual work for them. We assumed that all of the benefits we enjoy from victories of the Founding Fathers, the civil rights movements of the modern day, and everyone in between were the products of battles that had already been fought, not battles that we ourselves needed to continue fighting. And we now see the results of such naive notions.
So no, it is not an unhelpful attitude, it is a ******* fact, and ignoring it is what got us here. Reality is reality, and does not give a ***** about anyone's attempts at denial.
You said,
see how large of a percentage of our electorate does not have or choose to exercise critical thinking skills
.
The problem is, that's not a fact. It's wrong. There aren't masses of people who are incapable of or choosing not to use critical thinking, even if there are such masses of people being fairly limited in critical thinking, there has to be very few not using any. But you choose to portray large numbers of people as completely uncritical. That's not a fair portrayal.
But even more so, you make the problem out to be that people thought they didn't need to act out, that people were complacent. I don't believe that at all. A huge portion of this election cycle was spent solely on aggressively criticising Trump. There was no problem with that message not being strong enough, the problem was people heard it and then didn't care. Making the message stronger wouldn't have helped when the people you are trying to reach aren't listening.
The problem was that Trump supporters by and large thought of themselves as some kind of oppressed group, and that much of the aggression in criticising Trump only went towards making that belief stronger. For these people to have not voted for Trump, they needed to feel like there concerns were being listened to- that's why they voted for Trump- and that didn't happen. Instead, they were attacked as deplorable people.
The thing is, even if that's true (and to a significant extent I think it is), it's not going to make things better to say just because it is true. If we are dealing with irrationality, responding like you are talking to rational people is not going to help. You need to bridge the gap and deal with something more fundamental.
The problem is, that's not a fact. It's wrong. There aren't masses of people who are incapable of or choosing not to use critical thinking, even if there are such masses of people being fairly limited in critical thinking, there has to be very few not using any. But you choose to portray large numbers of people as completely uncritical. That's not a fair portrayal.
But even more so, you make the problem out to be that people thought they didn't need to act out, that people were complacent.
Because it's only possible to act out when thinking critically... No, obviously that's not true.
The problem was that Trump supporters by and large thought of themselves as some kind of oppressed group
... Ok, and maybe what you might choose to investigate from here, and this might be me just talkin' crazy, is look into WHY they think of themselves as oppressed, and then think critically about that and ask yourself exactly how true their position is.
Bonus points if you in turn consider whether voting for Trump would actually constitute a logical reaction to the position these people find themselves in, but prioritize the first part.
The thing is, even if that's true (and to a significant extent I think it is), it's not going to make things better to say just because it is true.
Why the hell not?
This is perhaps the most baffling takeaway from this election: people who honestly think others are racist, sexist, bigoted, prejudiced to the point where it influences national voting policy and the damn world, but still labor against others pointing it out.
For ****'s sake, when YamahaR1 is running around saying, "Hey, everyone's in an echo chamber," you were nodding and saying, "Oh yeah, that's a great point he's got there." So, you think it's a great point that people insulate themselves from contrary opinions and the negative result of that is that such people never question their own biases, and consequently these biases prevent them from confronting the truth.
AND YET, you're now saying it's not productive to confront people with the truth? Well gee, THAT'S contradictory, now isn't it?
The problem is, that's not a fact. It's wrong. There aren't masses of people who are incapable of or choosing not to use critical thinking, even if there are such masses of people being fairly limited in critical thinking, there has to be very few not using any. But you choose to portray large numbers of people as completely uncritical. That's not a fair portrayal.
Limited critical thinking is not a lack of critical thinking.
But even more so, you make the problem out to be that people thought they didn't need to act out, that people were complacent.
Because it's only possible to act out when thinking critically... Confused No, obviously that's not true.
You said this
We made the mistake of assuming that all of the things we enjoy were things that we could enjoy without ever doing any actual work for them. We assumed that all of the benefits we enjoy from victories of the Founding Fathers, the civil rights movements of the modern day, and everyone in between were the products of battles that had already been fought, not battles that we ourselves needed to continue fighting. And we now see the results of such naive notions.
That seems like you are saying the problem was complacency.
The problem was that Trump supporters by and large thought of themselves as some kind of oppressed group
... Ok, and maybe what you might choose to investigate from here, and this might be me just talkin' crazy, is look into WHY they think of themselves as oppressed, and then think critically about that and ask yourself exactly how true their position is.
Bonus points if you in turn consider whether voting for Trump would actually constitute a logical reaction to the position these people find themselves in, but prioritize the first part.
You realise am I saying quite explicitly that it was part of the problem that Trump supporters thought this?
I am by no means defending that notion, I am saying you have to understand the mindset of these people if you want them to support what you think.
It's irrelevant how rational or true any of it is.
The thing is, even if that's true (and to a significant extent I think it is), it's not going to make things better to say just because it is true.
Why the hell not?
Because they aren't listening, they JUST DIDN'T. Because we aren't dealing with a group of perfectly rational people, far from it.
You can't reason with the unreasonable. You need to address what is making them be unreasonable.
This is perhaps the most baffling takeaway from this election: people who honestly think others are racist, sexist, bigoted, prejudiced to the point where it influences national voting policy and the damn world, but still labor against others pointing it out.
I am not saying it shouldn't be pointed out, I in fact never said that. I am saying using that as a strategy is not very effective for dealing with people who are bigoted or are very invested in listening to others who are.
Pointing it out as a strategy works against a different group of people, who are on the fringe, or are against that side but aren't motivated enough to do anything.
For ****'s sake, when YamahaR1 is running around saying, "Hey, everyone's in an echo chamber," you were nodding and saying, "Oh yeah, that's a great point he's got there."
I made my own point in my own terms, it was simply related to the one YamahaR1 was making.
So, you think it's a great point that people insulate themselves from contrary opinions and the negative result of that is that such people never question their own biases, and consequently these biases prevent them from confronting the truth.
Important part here is the last bit, because what can happen is not simply that they people won't look for the truth, but that they become largely incapable of realising it even when they see it.
AND YET, you're now saying it's not productive to confront people with the truth? Well gee, THAT'S contradictory, now isn't it?
I am saying the truths you should confront them with should be those that undermine the preconceptions and habits they have that prevent them from ever reaching a reasonable conclusion.
It's not contraditory, it's the direct conclusion of my point- simply spreading the truth about an issue doesn't work. People are being driven by powerful cultural groupings with broad reaching worldviews and presuppositions, not simply individual ideas.
The problem is, that's not a fact. It's wrong. There aren't masses of people who are incapable of or choosing not to use critical thinking, even if there are such masses of people being fairly limited in critical thinking, there has to be very few not using any. But you choose to portray large numbers of people as completely uncritical. That's not a fair portrayal.
That sounds very fair to me. More than half of Trump voters think Obama was born in Kenya. You cannot believe that and also be capable of applying critical thinking. That belief is solely the domain of ignoramuses.
The problem is, that's not a fact. It's wrong. There aren't masses of people who are incapable of or choosing not to use critical thinking, even if there are such masses of people being fairly limited in critical thinking, there has to be very few not using any. But you choose to portray large numbers of people as completely uncritical. That's not a fair portrayal.
That sounds very fair to me. More than half of Trump voters think Obama was born in Kenya. You cannot believe that and also be capable of applying critical thinking. That belief is solely the domain of ignoramuses.
Because all people who think critically at all don't believe ANY stupid things? I don't believe that.
Nobody is 100% rational, everybody thinks stupid things sometimes, even if only for a time before they dismiss it.
You don't need to be totally uncritical to believe a few stupid things.
You aren't really addressing the concern here, Tiax. The concern is that people are abusing the concept of/word racism. And that's a legitimate concern, because people do actually do it. Whether it's a big concern or not, and where the instances of it are, is up to debate, but you can't just brush the concern aside like this. That's exactly the kind of attitude where this issue comes from.
I'm not addressing the concern because it's frivolous. It's not a real problem. It's just a cover for racists.
Then argue why you think it's a big issue, while others can argue why they think it is of a larger scale. Don't just dismiss it.
Personally, I think it is a real problem, but not a particularly big one.
Because all people who think critically at all don't believe ANY stupid things? I don't believe that.
Nobody is 100% rational, everybody thinks stupid things sometimes, even if only for a time before they dismiss it.
You don't need to be totally uncritical to believe a few stupid things.
How many stupid things do they have to believe for you to think they're uncritical? I can produce a LOT of examples backed by polling data.
Then argue why you think it's a big issue, while others can argue why they think it is of a larger scale. Don't just dismiss it.
Personally, I think it is a real problem, but not a particularly big one.
We've already had that thread. I'm not rehashing the argument, and I'm going to treat the idea like the insipid nonsense that it is - by dismissing it.
Because all people who think critically at all don't believe ANY stupid things? I don't believe that.
Nobody is 100% rational, everybody thinks stupid things sometimes, even if only for a time before they dismiss it.
You don't need to be totally uncritical to believe a few stupid things.
How many stupid things do they have to believe for you to think they're uncritical? I can produce a LOT of examples backed by polling data.
Very, very many. People are innately critically thinking, no matter whether they are very good at it.
It's really not hard to show that many people are quite bad at critically thinking, but that's not the same as not critically thinking at all.
EDIT:
Then argue why you think it's a big issue, while others can argue why they think it is of a larger scale. Don't just dismiss it.
Personally, I think it is a real problem, but not a particularly big one.
We've already had that thread. I'm not rehashing the argument, and I'm going to treat the idea like the insipid nonsense that it is - by dismissing it.
Don't bother debating it at all then if you aren't interested in being productive about it.
Very, very many. People are innately critically thinking, no matter whether they are very good at it.
It's really not hard to show that many people are quite bad at critically thinking, but that's not the same as not critically thinking at all.
This is just petty hair-splitting. What practical difference is there between people being so bad at critical thinking that their beliefs are entirely uncorrelated with truth, and not critically thinking at all? On question after question, Trump supporters do no better than random guessing. Once you cross that threshold, you may as well be not critically thinking at all.
Don't bother debating it at all then if you aren't interested in being productive about it.
I've already given a thorough explanation in the other thread. If you or Yamaha need a refresher, go back and read it.
Very, very many. People are innately critically thinking, no matter whether they are very good at it.
It's really not hard to show that many people are quite bad at critically thinking, but that's not the same as not critically thinking at all.
This is just petty hair-splitting. What practical difference is there between people being so bad at critical thinking that their beliefs are entirely uncorrelated with truth, and not critically thinking at all? On question after question, Trump supporters do no better than random guessing. Once you cross that threshold, you may as well be not critically thinking at all.
The majority of Trump supporter's beliefs are entirely factual things that almost every mentally healthy adult understands.
Their beliefs are not entirely uncorrelated with truth, that's absurd.
Don't bother debating it at all then if you aren't interested in being productive about it
.
I've already given a thorough explanation in the other thread. If you or Yamaha need a refresher, go back and read it.
You aren't interested in being productive about it, but you still want to say something. Don't.
The majority of Trump supporter's beliefs are entirely factual things that almost every mentally healthy adult understands.
Their beliefs are not entirely uncorrelated with truth, that's absurd.
When things are accepted by everyone, it does not signal critical thinking to also accept them. Such basic facts aren't a relevant indicator.
You aren't interested in being productive about it, but you still want to say something. Don't.
I've already been productive about it. What I'm not interested in is seeing such drivel go unchallenged.
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Now, sure, some people were shocked on Nov. 8 because of the echo chamber. The Huffington Post projected a Clinton win with 99% confidence -- that was clearly bull. But some people were shocked because the result was legitimately shocking. Polling data are not an echo chamber, and they really did favor Clinton from beginning to end. Trump himself has said that he went into Election Day expecting to lose. And, of course, Trump did lose the popular vote; the polls weren't that far from wrong.
Were there people out there who were confident Trump would win? Oh yes. The Huffington Post may have given Clinton 99% odds, but I also saw Trump supporters projecting that he would be the first candidate to sweep all fifty states. They could only be so confident by being in their own echo chamber: one which insulated them from the data or told them to ignore them. This echo chamber also had to downplay Trump's naked self-interest, his utter contempt for facts, and his myriad failings as a human being while at the same time spinning Hillary Clinton into a criminal mastermind on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. So considering one echo chamber elected a man totally unfit for the White House, while the other chamber merely thought that guy would lose, no points for guessing which one I'm more concerned about right now.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
So the "revelation" was that polling in a few states was off by a percentage point or two? Wow, what a revelation! World-shattering!
Yeah, I read about 2 years ago about Facebook selecting out your news feed based on its algorithm’s perception of your opinion. I recall feeling disillusioned at the time that companies would rather sell you a sense of reinforcement of your own beliefs than do their jobs as media outlets of exposing you to news. But, I wasn’t really sure at the time how that danger would manifest itself, exactly.
Now, 2016 has happened, and all the HuffPost readers are facepalming. Bright side, I know a lot of people who have stopped going to those outlets that had everything so incredibly wrong. But, the underlying issue still is that the internet makes it too easy to ignore people you don’t agree with.
Why are you talking about polling data?
The shocking revelation that despite all the things he's said, the things he's done and the principles he campaigned on, a staggering amount of people voted for him (and enough in the right places to win an election.) The very IDEA that he'll be in the white house.
The echo chamber in social media is not smear articles and polling. Its people all nodding their head in agreement on (all of the issues involved) repeating the same views back to each other (echo... echo..) because they've stomped out the opposing view, thus lead to believe nobody like Trump could get elected. Because that's racist. And that's sexist. And that's xenophobic. And everyone cares about polar bears. Right? Right.
That is, the revelation.
Thank you. This man got it. I think.
My Buying Thread
Everyone always knew a staggering amount of people would vote for him. The only question was whether he'd be soundly defeated or squeak out a win. The polling data suggested the former was more likely. That's why people believed he wouldn't be elected - because the evidence supported that conclusion.
I think we are on two totally separate ideas. I am speaking of the shock and awe felt (around the world actually) that America actually elected a man like Trump despite him doing and saying things that are now socially unacceptable. I am speaking in regard to millions of posts quoting "What am I going to tell my daughter?" and "America really is racist". I am speaking of celebrities, talk show hosts and television anchors blatantly saying they are shocked we elected a "racist sexist xenophobic" president. Not just immediately following the election, but even as the states turned colors.
Its the revelation that many people either feel that way OR they don't see that as something that would discourage them from voting for him.
If you are selling the idea that the masses were ONLY shocked BECAUSE the poll data suggested otherwise, then you've got your head in the sand. Or you're just being flippant.
My Buying Thread
America would be just as racist if Trump had received a few ten thousand fewer votes in the right places and lost the presidency. The worry people express about what to tell their children isn't a revelation - we all already knew America is racist. The surprise was the that the polls were off, not that millions of people are happy to support racism.
The problem is that Donald Trump's election has sent a message in the political world that to
pretend tosolve racism is no longer a priority. The uptick in hate crimes post election also shows that racists in the general population have be emboldened as well. Even Dylan Roof's massacre did not have as a long lasting effect (that I have been informed of. I know there was a wave of hate crime and church burning, but that went down unlike Donald Trump's election because it's going to be around for four years max).candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
You all did? Who all? MTGS? A handful of debate posters who spend time pouring over the internet for data? Or literally everyone - including all white people - and all white people who rarely have to deal with race issues unless someone's in their face about it or rioting in a far away city? They all knew? Knew something more than a mob of people are busy destroying their own neighborhood and behaving terribly?
How about my original post - the one that you replied to acting like a bitter jerk, spouting about polls I never mentioned
Here's my points so you don't fabricate any:
-I believe social media, mainstream media, television and the internet do a very good job of silencing opinions they don't like
-This leads people to believe that everyone (the overwhelming majority) thinks the same - that everyone is on the same page
-If you drive out everyone potentially guilty of wrongthink, you've only tricked yourself
-I also believe (per another thread) that hitting people with the racist or bigot stick on every topic or repeatedly demonizing white people simply shuts down the conversation.
-In this very thread alone there's many negative comments demonizing white people - that's acceptable racism.
I suppose I tend to lump twitter in with MSN commentary - full of trolls protected by the internet. But an example to my thinking is say, your real face book account. If you posted half of the things he's been critisized for, you'd likely have real life consquences for it. People would de-friend you. People would flame you (hell, you can be mobbed for posting that you don't support oxycontin subs). Its not unthinkable to get a thousand negative comments or more for a socially unacceptable statement. Maybe ten thousand comments. You might have to shut down your face book. You could certainly get fired for it. If its bad enough, your post might even be on the front page of MSN, or on Ellen's show. This applies to the workplace, or even the bar. Nobody dares tell a racial joke or make a bigoted statement. When someone does, I'm thinking "Ummmm you can get fired for that..."
I do think this leads (some) people to believe that everyone in society (or at least everyone they know on FB, or at the office, or people around them) are on the same page. Then comes a man who says whatever he damn pleases (and has no experience in politics) and guess what... he won a presidential election. You really wouldn't think that possible, given you could be fired for the same statements he makes. You really wouldn't think there's THAT MANY out there either.
My reference to MTGS is because its not really that different. There's a long list of things (or views) you dare not express because you know exactly whats going to happen (say, immigration, abortion or... CLIMATE CHANGE ROFL!) Its either going to be the racist bat, the bigot stick or the dunce hat. And once anyone retaining the last of conservative views is gone, what's left? A group of people just nodding in agreement - like an echo chamber. How much is really achieved?
My Buying Thread
"All" is in the people who are now worried about what to tell their children. The people who have enough social consciousness to understand the threat Trump poses already understood the nature of race in America. The people who don't understand aren't the people you described as saying, "What am I going to tell my daughter?" and "America really is racist".
Really, you think the internet, home of everything from Stormfront to Tumblr, is good at silencing people?
I doubt many people are fooled. Do you really think more than a handful of crazies thought that either Trump or Clinton would win the "overwhelming majority" of votes? Everyone knows the country is divided. We see it constantly in the news.
I don't think you've tricked anyone.
As I said in that other thread, this is dangerous, backwards, and only serves to legitimize racism.
No there aren't.
You aren't really addressing the concern here, Tiax. The concern is that people are abusing the concept of/word racism. And that's a legitimate concern, because people do actually do it. Whether it's a big concern or not, and where the instances of it are, is up to debate, but you can't just brush the concern aside like this. That's exactly the kind of attitude where this issue comes from.
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I'm not addressing the concern because it's frivolous. It's not a real problem. It's just a cover for racists.
You may have learned in social studies class that the Founding Fathers didn't build a democracy, or a kingdom, or a dictatorship. They founded a republic, specifically one built around checks and balances. Did you ever stop to consider why that was? It's because they subscribed to two key concepts:
1. Through intelligent, informed, rational thought, they could build a better society.
2. People cannot be relied upon to behave in intelligent, informed, rational, and benevolent ways.
That second part is important, and they knew this first hand. They understood completely how easily the government could slip into a tyranny that disenfranchises people because they were rebelling against a tyrant who disenfranchised them! Therefore, they didn't put one man in charge, nor did they build a democracy where the majority vote would hold all the power. They deliberately crafted their government so no one person or organization would hold too much power because they knew that human beings cannot be relied upon to make informed, intelligent, rational, benevolent decisions. They formed their government accordingly, making it as difficult as possible for any one person or group to take power, knowing all the while that the possibility of a demagogue taking power was always a risk that needed to be vigilantly watched for.
And that's what we all lost sight of. We were foolish enough to lose sight of just how irrational, illogical, and without judgment people truly are when it comes to matters of the state and individual liberty. We thought that something like President Trump would never happen because we assumed that "these things just don't happen here," that modern America was somehow special and exempt. But we ignored the fact that every single thing that is exceptional about America - and make no mistake, America truly is special - was earned as a result of the decisions, dedication, hard work, and extreme sacrifice of every person who came before us, starting from the Founding Fathers; to the people who nobly sacrificed so much, including the their own lives and the lives of their family members, in order that this nation would be liberated from Great Britain; all the way to the Civil Rights movement and the present day. We forgot just how deeply rooted racism in this country is, because we enjoy all of the benefits of the Civil Rights movement.
We made the mistake of assuming that all of the things we enjoy were things that we could enjoy without ever doing any actual work for them. We assumed that all of the benefits we enjoy from victories of the Founding Fathers, the civil rights movements of the modern day, and everyone in between were the products of battles that had already been fought, not battles that we ourselves needed to continue fighting. And we now see the results of such naive notions.
So no, it is not an unhelpful attitude, it is a ******* fact, and ignoring it is what got us here. Reality is reality, and does not give a ***** about anyone's attempts at denial.
But as stated, you're denying the idea that Trump supporters were in their own echo chamber.
Which is extremely important because...
... Trump is openly all of those things. Trump's statements are openly all of those things. Trump's proposed policies are openly all of those things.
The only way you could miss this is to be in an echo chamber.
We recently had a man open fire in a pizzeria because he believed a trending story on social media about a Democrat-run pedophilia ring - a conspiracy theory which has exactly zero validity and has been outright discredited by major news organizations.
And this is not the only false story that was circulated. This election will be defined by "fake news," which is a term I can't stand, because there's already a word for "fake news." It's "lying." You had deliberate lies all over social media claiming to be news articles, and people believed them despite ample evidence to the contrary. Multiple government agencies have outright stated that the Russians actually ran a propaganda campaign to influence our election, and yet people are still clinging to the validity of blatant lies.
Journalistic bias is absolutely a topic we should always been willing to discuss. But there is a mountain of difference between accusing someone of journalistic bias because they are biased, and dismissing someone due to perceived journalistic bias when they are pointing out actual facts because those facts go against your political views. Donald Trump ran a campaign of falsehoods, lied constantly, and the fact that he won indicates the willingness of people to completely ignore every single media source that told people that Trump was lying.
To clarify: that's not the news media trying to silence anybody. That's the news media actually doing its job.
You talk of being against echo chambers? Donald Trump's victory is the victory of the echo chamber.
Not to state the obvious, but this is the Debate section. Your views on immigration, abortion, and climate change are going to be challenged here, because that's the point. Everyone's views are challenged here. Does being challenged make you feel unwelcome? Would you rather we all just smile and accept your viewpoint uncritically? Do you think you might go find other forums where people will do that? Because if so, guess what: you're not condemning an echo chamber, you're looking for one.
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You said, .
The problem is, that's not a fact. It's wrong. There aren't masses of people who are incapable of or choosing not to use critical thinking, even if there are such masses of people being fairly limited in critical thinking, there has to be very few not using any. But you choose to portray large numbers of people as completely uncritical. That's not a fair portrayal.
But even more so, you make the problem out to be that people thought they didn't need to act out, that people were complacent. I don't believe that at all. A huge portion of this election cycle was spent solely on aggressively criticising Trump. There was no problem with that message not being strong enough, the problem was people heard it and then didn't care. Making the message stronger wouldn't have helped when the people you are trying to reach aren't listening.
The problem was that Trump supporters by and large thought of themselves as some kind of oppressed group, and that much of the aggression in criticising Trump only went towards making that belief stronger. For these people to have not voted for Trump, they needed to feel like there concerns were being listened to- that's why they voted for Trump- and that didn't happen. Instead, they were attacked as deplorable people.
The thing is, even if that's true (and to a significant extent I think it is), it's not going to make things better to say just because it is true. If we are dealing with irrationality, responding like you are talking to rational people is not going to help. You need to bridge the gap and deal with something more fundamental.
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Because it's only possible to act out when thinking critically...
... Ok, and maybe what you might choose to investigate from here, and this might be me just talkin' crazy, is look into WHY they think of themselves as oppressed, and then think critically about that and ask yourself exactly how true their position is.
Bonus points if you in turn consider whether voting for Trump would actually constitute a logical reaction to the position these people find themselves in, but prioritize the first part.
Why the hell not?
This is perhaps the most baffling takeaway from this election: people who honestly think others are racist, sexist, bigoted, prejudiced to the point where it influences national voting policy and the damn world, but still labor against others pointing it out.
For ****'s sake, when YamahaR1 is running around saying, "Hey, everyone's in an echo chamber," you were nodding and saying, "Oh yeah, that's a great point he's got there." So, you think it's a great point that people insulate themselves from contrary opinions and the negative result of that is that such people never question their own biases, and consequently these biases prevent them from confronting the truth.
AND YET, you're now saying it's not productive to confront people with the truth? Well gee, THAT'S contradictory, now isn't it?
Limited critical thinking is not a lack of critical thinking.
You said this
That seems like you are saying the problem was complacency.
You realise am I saying quite explicitly that it was part of the problem that Trump supporters thought this?
I am by no means defending that notion, I am saying you have to understand the mindset of these people if you want them to support what you think.
It's irrelevant how rational or true any of it is.
Because they aren't listening, they JUST DIDN'T. Because we aren't dealing with a group of perfectly rational people, far from it.
You can't reason with the unreasonable. You need to address what is making them be unreasonable.
I am not saying it shouldn't be pointed out, I in fact never said that. I am saying using that as a strategy is not very effective for dealing with people who are bigoted or are very invested in listening to others who are.
Pointing it out as a strategy works against a different group of people, who are on the fringe, or are against that side but aren't motivated enough to do anything.
I made my own point in my own terms, it was simply related to the one YamahaR1 was making.
Important part here is the last bit, because what can happen is not simply that they people won't look for the truth, but that they become largely incapable of realising it even when they see it.
I am saying the truths you should confront them with should be those that undermine the preconceptions and habits they have that prevent them from ever reaching a reasonable conclusion.
It's not contraditory, it's the direct conclusion of my point- simply spreading the truth about an issue doesn't work. People are being driven by powerful cultural groupings with broad reaching worldviews and presuppositions, not simply individual ideas.
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That sounds very fair to me. More than half of Trump voters think Obama was born in Kenya. You cannot believe that and also be capable of applying critical thinking. That belief is solely the domain of ignoramuses.
Because all people who think critically at all don't believe ANY stupid things? I don't believe that.
Nobody is 100% rational, everybody thinks stupid things sometimes, even if only for a time before they dismiss it.
You don't need to be totally uncritical to believe a few stupid things.
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Then argue why you think it's a big issue, while others can argue why they think it is of a larger scale. Don't just dismiss it.
Personally, I think it is a real problem, but not a particularly big one.
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How many stupid things do they have to believe for you to think they're uncritical? I can produce a LOT of examples backed by polling data.
We've already had that thread. I'm not rehashing the argument, and I'm going to treat the idea like the insipid nonsense that it is - by dismissing it.
Very, very many. People are innately critically thinking, no matter whether they are very good at it.
It's really not hard to show that many people are quite bad at critically thinking, but that's not the same as not critically thinking at all.
EDIT:
Don't bother debating it at all then if you aren't interested in being productive about it.
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This is just petty hair-splitting. What practical difference is there between people being so bad at critical thinking that their beliefs are entirely uncorrelated with truth, and not critically thinking at all? On question after question, Trump supporters do no better than random guessing. Once you cross that threshold, you may as well be not critically thinking at all.
I've already given a thorough explanation in the other thread. If you or Yamaha need a refresher, go back and read it.
The majority of Trump supporter's beliefs are entirely factual things that almost every mentally healthy adult understands.
Their beliefs are not entirely uncorrelated with truth, that's absurd.
You aren't interested in being productive about it, but you still want to say something. Don't.
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When things are accepted by everyone, it does not signal critical thinking to also accept them. Such basic facts aren't a relevant indicator.
I've already been productive about it. What I'm not interested in is seeing such drivel go unchallenged.