This is a good chance to discuss weather the EU is a good or bad organization for those who are members of it. Obviously some people in the UK think that it might be better for them to leave others not so much.
Should Britain Withdraw? Is the EU a benefit to more people (and nations) than it is a drawback? Part of the discussion hinges on immigrants and refugees utilizing (some people would say abusing) government services so I feel this discussion is particularly important to Americans who care a lot more about immigration lately for some reason.
This is a good chance to discuss weather the EU is a good or bad organization for those who are members of it.
It is mostly good but it is not to say the thing is perfect. There is a lot of room for improvement. Instead of concentrating on a couple of narrow things in an attempt to placate his rebellious Eurosceptic Backbenchers David Cameron should have tried getting some of the more major issues sorted.
Obviously some people in the UK think that it might be better for them to leave others not so much.
Its more that some people did not want to join in the first place most of them sitting on the back benches of the Conservative party. Unfortunately that ship has sailed, we are in itand our energies are better spent trying to reform the thing from within rather than leaving
Should Britain Withdraw?
No we shouldn't be leaving, it is very likely to be an unmitigated disaster as the people in charge of the EU are not going to want any one else to even be tempted to flirt with leaving. So we aren't going to give us anything near what we want and need.
The US, that the Brexiteers are banking on to play nice with us, have explictly stated that they are not interested in a bilateral trade agreement with us as we are to small on our own.
Part of the discussion hinges on immigrants and refugees utilizing (some people would say abusing) government services so I feel this discussion is particularly important to Americans who care a lot more about immigration lately for some reason.
The stupid thing is that if we want any access to the European Single Market or any other European Union entities we are still going to have to accept the free movement of people and trade from the rest of the European Single Market, so absolutely nothing is going to change on that front.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Thanks for weighing in. I was hoping to get a response from someone close to the situation, I haven't claimed residency in Europe since before the foundation of the EU so I mostly have the media to go on for info. I am very curious to see the situ.ation develop. Losing the UK would be a big change to the economic balance of the EU.
I've been out of the UK for nearly a decade so..., but my impression is that a number of significant UK laws and standards will have to be updated because the modern versions are pan-European agreements and that'll just add to the confusion.
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
It gets worse as they have been enshrined at a couple of different levels.
Firstly in the UK wide Parliament when the new treaties that need ratifying, but when we created the devolved parliaments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland things like the European court of Human Rights/Convention of Human Rights also got enshrined at that level as well.
This is fairly tricky as one of the claims of Brexiteers is that we will be able withdraw from both the Convention and the Court and replace it with our own UK bill of human rights. Unfortunately to get that we would have to rely on those devolved parliaments being willing to play ball other wise we would have 3/4 of the constituent states signed up to a Pan European agreement and 1, England, with its own probably drastically reduced bill of righs.
The situation gets even worse if you concentrate on Northern Ireland as I believe the ECHR was also enshrined as part of the Good Friday agreement that ended the 'Troubles'.
None of this is going to be easy to unpick and recreate in which ever new format gets agreed.
This even presumes that the EU plays nicely and allows us to withdraw from the ECHRs and retain access to the Common Market.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Europe is united like it never was before. No more wars and bloodshed between Europeans for 70 years now... This is amazing.
On the other hand is the organization itself just terrible. It is not a democratic system, but its democratic members are forced to adhere to the rules created by this system betraying their own democratic roots. This is terrible and this has to change.
The Brexit discussion (and the Grexit discussion as well) shows that the current system became unstable. It has to move either forward toward a truly united democratic system, where each citizen is treated equal under the same laws or backward into the segregated European states we were before... hopefully with the additional lesson learned that war in Europe only hurts Europe.
That are my two cents on the whole discussion.
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Drop your knees to the floor
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Europe is united like it never was before. No more wars and bloodshed between Europeans for 70 years now... This is amazing.
Europe has a habit of about one big war per century so its a bit early to say they have broken the pattern. That said they do seem more united than any other point in history so short of full economic collapse I don't see full scale war erupting in the next thirty years. Democracies tend not to go to war with one another.
Part of the discussion hinges on immigrants and refugees utilizing (some people would say abusing) government services.
This is really not what the EU is about.
The status of refugees is mainly defined through international treaties, not really through the EU.
The EU only asks that EU citizens are treated equally by a state. The same applies to Brits in the EU. Countries can define themselves how social rights are acquired. They just cannot discriminate.
On the other hand, the Brexit-camp doesn't always play fair, so they are appealing to the more basal instincts by steering the discussion towards migration.
(I think we should send those who flee ISIS straight to the countries that caused the mess by invading Iraq. )
Totally an outsider; but my understanding is that the EU is flawed in many ways by allowing sovereignty to continue,
This is what the people want. There is no support for giving extra sovereignty to the EU.
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These are the decks that I have constructed, and are ready to play:
01. Ankh Sligh to be exact.
At 54.5% reporting right now, the results are at 48.6% for staying and 51.4% for leaving. The results have been fluctuating back and for a while, and earlier there was less than a 1% difference.
The term is called Splendid Isolation for Britain thinking that it is different than mainland Europe. It's a historic concept, similar to the US and Manifest Destiny and rugged individualism having no real powers around the US during its rise.
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Life is a beautiful engineer, yet a brutal scientist.
Finally a win for the good guys! There was so much money and power behind Remain's propaganda campaign but you still saw through it all and made the choice that you thought best for your country. Congratulations!
So does this mean the global economy's going to implode now that Britain has left the European Union?
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Jesus Christ, Who Is God Revealed In The Flesh, Bless America.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Sometimes I think it's a sin when I feel like I'm winning but I'm losing again." - Gordon Lightfoot
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Meanwhile in the real world, the pound is crashing to a three decade low (aka a worse recession than the 2008 global financial crisis, and the UK did it to itself).
[link]
Rest in pieces in peace UK, I'm glad I left you.
Seriously though this kind of inevitable increase in human suffering because ideology is not even slightly hilarious and I hope it doesn't last too long because I've got friends who'll have to live with this.
Also: no-one's mentioned this yet but a Pro Remain politician named Jo Cox got assassinated in the street by an apparent Right-Wing terrorist about a week back, so that's super ****ed up. [link]
EDIT: and now Cameron is like.... Always thought I'd be glad to see the back of him, but Nigel and Boris are even worse so whatever.
Quote from David Cameron resigns after UK votes to leave European Union »
David Cameron has announced his resignation after the British public rejected his personal entreaties and voted to leave the European Union.
The dramatic announcement came after a sharp fall in the pound and as £128bn was wiped off the FTSE 100.
Cameron said: “I am honoured to have been prime minister of this country for six years.”
Earlier on Friday, Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, became the first party leader to call for Cameron to go, saying what Britain needed was a “Brexit prime minister”.
Cameron’s team in Downing Street were shocked and distraught by the narrow win for leave, after polls had suggested a move towards a comfortable margin for remain in the final few days of campaigning.
The prime minister and the chancellor, George Osborne, had gambled their political futures on the historic referendum, which was called to settle the deep divide within their own party.
But a narrow victory for remain early in the night for Newcastle, which had been expected to reject Brexit by a strong margin, set the pattern for later results, which saw voters rejecting the overwhelming advice of economic experts that leaving would be an act of “economic self-harm”. more at link
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
I think Nigel Farage might have just managed the world record for time between winning a vote and getting caught in the lie that helped win the vote. Like, if a major part of your campaign is "Vote leave and we'll give £350m to the NHS rather than the EU", that money has to show up.
It's not going to. [link]
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
If we want a halfway decent deal with the rest of Europe we are going to have to accept pretty much everything we don't like about the EU, which meands that £350 million they claimed we would get back is most likely going to turn into the actual figure of tehe £190 million that will have to be sent back to the EU as the Membership Fee.
We will still have to accept free movement of people and will probably have to enter the Schengen zone. Even if we didn't the current agreements with Calais over the Refugee camps is likely to end so all Border control will be done on our side of the Channel.
The only things taht will have changed is that we will have made us less attractive a market to invest in and lost the ability to influence the rules that Europe will make us abide by if we want to continue to trade with them.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
economics is one thing, but global capitalism's need for free and open borders is leading to real demographic change that cause many to feel their culture is being destroyed. the brexit is just one nations latest big move that reflect people's desire to not sit idly by and stop the resulting demographic change.
another thing is there is real disconnect between governments, corporations and banks from the people they govern and represent, the global entanglement of the trio has become far to vastly complicated, thus if one nation finally takes it upon itself to leave that entanglement of the trio they basically saying we want to take a chance to making things simplier. though its clearly going to be anything but simply when you get down to the legal issue of doing it. I doubt the leaders involved in trio as i'm calling it, will take a hint from this and invoke simplification from the top down, instead it will have to be simplication through complication done as in the Brexit here from the bottom up.
I wonder what kinds of advantages this will give to the EU. The London City Square Mile will maybe quite hurt by the Brexit, which can be good for Frankfurt's Finance District. Also, actually being outside of the EU makes the UK the clear weaker partner in terms of future trade agreements. There are not that many reasons for the EU to give the UK any more leeway than Switzerland or Norway, which means accepting a lot of EU rules and next to free movement without a voting power.
Also, let's see how Scotland and Northern Ireland will fare, if they leave there will be no GB or UK anymore.
That sounds hurtful, but all that can lead to a big advantage for some states in the EU. Stable country plus next to all of Europe as a free trade union sounds much more attractive for foreign investors than the UK does right now.
I really hope the EU uses that chance to change some of its much criticized inner workings, but also remains firm when negotiating with the UK now. As Elmar Brok said, "Leave is Leave", and compared to the whole EU GB is just too insignificant to have any pull whats'o'ever. All of this will happen to the detriment of the British people, but I'm sorry to say their welfare is not EU concern anymore.
So as I understand it, with England gone, Germany's the sole major economic power in the EU, right?
So basically, England voted to essentially hand Europe over to Germany, with Germany begging England, "No, don't go, we don't want this all to ourselves"? Do I have that right? If so, history is hilarious.
economics is one thing, but global capitalism's need for free and open borders is leading to real demographic change that cause many to feel their culture is being destroyed. the brexit is just one nations latest big move that reflect people's desire to not sit idly by and stop the resulting demographic change.
So, in other words, brown people. The issue is brown people. Got it.
This is a good chance to discuss weather the EU is a good or bad organization for those who are members of it. Obviously some people in the UK think that it might be better for them to leave others not so much.
Should Britain Withdraw? Is the EU a benefit to more people (and nations) than it is a drawback? Part of the discussion hinges on immigrants and refugees utilizing (some people would say abusing) government services so I feel this discussion is particularly important to Americans who care a lot more about immigration lately for some reason.
It is mostly good but it is not to say the thing is perfect. There is a lot of room for improvement. Instead of concentrating on a couple of narrow things in an attempt to placate his rebellious Eurosceptic Backbenchers David Cameron should have tried getting some of the more major issues sorted.
Its more that some people did not want to join in the first place most of them sitting on the back benches of the Conservative party. Unfortunately that ship has sailed, we are in itand our energies are better spent trying to reform the thing from within rather than leaving
No we shouldn't be leaving, it is very likely to be an unmitigated disaster as the people in charge of the EU are not going to want any one else to even be tempted to flirt with leaving. So we aren't going to give us anything near what we want and need.
The US, that the Brexiteers are banking on to play nice with us, have explictly stated that they are not interested in a bilateral trade agreement with us as we are to small on our own.
The stupid thing is that if we want any access to the European Single Market or any other European Union entities we are still going to have to accept the free movement of people and trade from the rest of the European Single Market, so absolutely nothing is going to change on that front.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Art is life itself.
Firstly in the UK wide Parliament when the new treaties that need ratifying, but when we created the devolved parliaments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland things like the European court of Human Rights/Convention of Human Rights also got enshrined at that level as well.
This is fairly tricky as one of the claims of Brexiteers is that we will be able withdraw from both the Convention and the Court and replace it with our own UK bill of human rights. Unfortunately to get that we would have to rely on those devolved parliaments being willing to play ball other wise we would have 3/4 of the constituent states signed up to a Pan European agreement and 1, England, with its own probably drastically reduced bill of righs.
The situation gets even worse if you concentrate on Northern Ireland as I believe the ECHR was also enshrined as part of the Good Friday agreement that ended the 'Troubles'.
None of this is going to be easy to unpick and recreate in which ever new format gets agreed.
This even presumes that the EU plays nicely and allows us to withdraw from the ECHRs and retain access to the Common Market.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Europe is united like it never was before. No more wars and bloodshed between Europeans for 70 years now... This is amazing.
On the other hand is the organization itself just terrible. It is not a democratic system, but its democratic members are forced to adhere to the rules created by this system betraying their own democratic roots. This is terrible and this has to change.
The Brexit discussion (and the Grexit discussion as well) shows that the current system became unstable. It has to move either forward toward a truly united democratic system, where each citizen is treated equal under the same laws or backward into the segregated European states we were before... hopefully with the additional lesson learned that war in Europe only hurts Europe.
That are my two cents on the whole discussion.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
This is really not what the EU is about.
The status of refugees is mainly defined through international treaties, not really through the EU.
The EU only asks that EU citizens are treated equally by a state. The same applies to Brits in the EU. Countries can define themselves how social rights are acquired. They just cannot discriminate.
On the other hand, the Brexit-camp doesn't always play fair, so they are appealing to the more basal instincts by steering the discussion towards migration.
(I think we should send those who flee ISIS straight to the countries that caused the mess by invading Iraq.
This is what the people want. There is no support for giving extra sovereignty to the EU.
These are the decks that I have constructed, and are ready to play:
01. Ankh Sligh to be exact.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Modern
Commander
Cube
<a href="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/588020-unpowered-themed-enchantment-an-enchanted-evening">An Enchanted Evening Cube </a>
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Sometimes I think it's a sin when I feel like I'm winning but I'm losing again." - Gordon Lightfoot
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
[link]
Rest in pieces in peace UK, I'm glad I left you.
Seriously though this kind of inevitable increase in human suffering because ideology is not even slightly hilarious and I hope it doesn't last too long because I've got friends who'll have to live with this.
Also: no-one's mentioned this yet but a Pro Remain politician named Jo Cox got assassinated in the street by an apparent Right-Wing terrorist about a week back, so that's super ****ed up. [link]
EDIT: and now Cameron is like.... Always thought I'd be glad to see the back of him, but Nigel and Boris are even worse so whatever.
Art is life itself.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
In what sense was this a moral question one way or the other? It was a simple economic comprehension test, which the British electorate failed.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
That is probably too much of a doom scenario. But it's not good. Expect rising economies in Asia and South America.
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678It's not going to. [link]
Art is life itself.
We will still have to accept free movement of people and will probably have to enter the Schengen zone. Even if we didn't the current agreements with Calais over the Refugee camps is likely to end so all Border control will be done on our side of the Channel.
The only things taht will have changed is that we will have made us less attractive a market to invest in and lost the ability to influence the rules that Europe will make us abide by if we want to continue to trade with them.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
economics is one thing, but global capitalism's need for free and open borders is leading to real demographic change that cause many to feel their culture is being destroyed. the brexit is just one nations latest big move that reflect people's desire to not sit idly by and stop the resulting demographic change.
another thing is there is real disconnect between governments, corporations and banks from the people they govern and represent, the global entanglement of the trio has become far to vastly complicated, thus if one nation finally takes it upon itself to leave that entanglement of the trio they basically saying we want to take a chance to making things simplier. though its clearly going to be anything but simply when you get down to the legal issue of doing it. I doubt the leaders involved in trio as i'm calling it, will take a hint from this and invoke simplification from the top down, instead it will have to be simplication through complication done as in the Brexit here from the bottom up.
Art is life itself.
Also, let's see how Scotland and Northern Ireland will fare, if they leave there will be no GB or UK anymore.
That sounds hurtful, but all that can lead to a big advantage for some states in the EU. Stable country plus next to all of Europe as a free trade union sounds much more attractive for foreign investors than the UK does right now.
I really hope the EU uses that chance to change some of its much criticized inner workings, but also remains firm when negotiating with the UK now. As Elmar Brok said, "Leave is Leave", and compared to the whole EU GB is just too insignificant to have any pull whats'o'ever. All of this will happen to the detriment of the British people, but I'm sorry to say their welfare is not EU concern anymore.
So basically, England voted to essentially hand Europe over to Germany, with Germany begging England, "No, don't go, we don't want this all to ourselves"? Do I have that right? If so, history is hilarious.
So, in other words, brown people. The issue is brown people. Got it.