Give it a generation or two with everyone using unisex bathrooms =P
But, in all seriousness, the societal implications of most large-scale policy actions need to be seen in terms of DECADES, not months or years.
Like the War on Drugs. Complete and epic failure. Most likely led to a huge increase in drug trafficking and mass incarceration of minorities for a lengthy time, leading to destabilized communities and people with a permanent red mark on their public profile that just makes it easier to fall into a life of crime, etc.
But at the time it probably sounded like a good idea.
I'm not sure that counts as a failure, since it was the goal in the first place.
Please don't TL;DR the topic. The topic is unisex bathrooms. The fear is the suffix of unisex. Suffix is the ending of a word in case you didn't know. As far as coitus is concerned, I am worried about the notion of having only unisex bathrooms due to the possibility of increasing rape statistics in public bathrooms and increasing teen pregnancy in schools. So yes, pregnancy has much to do with this bathroom topic.
@Taix
"An Oregon high school installed separate unisex bathrooms, giving a "third option" to its students, including those who identify as transgender, a school official said."
...
Did you know Family bathrooms are unisex? They are. Most of them have door locks on the main doors themselves. This Oregon hasn't done that persay, because "third option" is doing exactly what you suggested about parking garages (which as I stated have security measures including surveillance where bathrooms do not): segregation of the transgendered students to their own bathrooms.
Face it: everyone knows that the a body of people must have at least one member of their party meet at least one of these requirements for a Family restroom: Infantile to prepubescent with parent/guardian of opposite gender, special needs with caretaker, excessively enfeebled by one way or another through age that would need a caretaker, recovering from severe injury and needing a constant caretaker. If a party of people does not have anyone that meets the requirements, they typically use their respective bathrooms (male or female) instead. If there is only one person in a party, automatically they know they do not socially qualify to use the family restroom.
Oregon unisex bathrooms are for transgendered students just as a "black box recorder" is actually orange...or as you pointed out, the War on Drugs.
Why is this important? Highschoolers know how to label things. If someone wants to bully a transgender kid, they need only watch who goes in there to pick their target. Why wouldn't they typically go in to continue harassment? Aside from the heightened LGBTQphobia of being labeled exactly what they would be going in to persecute by entering said bathroom? Because the administration of that school is giving transgender kids special treatment and a special area that technically is open to the rest of the public (hey, you ever used a handicapped stall when not handicapped and then in the middle of your business had an actual handicapped person enter the restroom and wonder why in the nine layers of Phyrexia you are in there? You will be villianized, even if it was THE last stall open.) but it really isn't meant to be used by everyone in the public (Compare handicapped stalls to, wait for it...handicapped parking spaces! Can't park in those at ALL without a handicapped sticker, that is of course unless you wish to run the risk of being socially ridiculed and/or fined!). Yet again, most highschoolers can identify symbols. Differences are mined to build the social hierarchy. Ever wonder why the "Jocks" are always overtly male, both physically and via their broadcasted lifestyle?
The Oregon unisex bathroom is not a place to make the transgendered student feel like he or she belongs to one of the groups. It is a safe place for that student, due to social stigma, just it should have been during supervised teaching moments, and just like it was not in the unsupervised bathrooms said student was avoiding due to persecution (or worse, the article didn't say).
Thought the segregated parking lot comment would escape, didn't you? No. Aside from the aforementioned surveillance (seriously, I mentioned it BEFORE your male/female parking spots idea), how would that work with carpooling? Dating? Families? All of them in one car, a mixed bag of gender having to park in a single spot... how would that even work?
Lastly, to drive this counter home: a transgender person parks in your segregated parking lot. Where would you have them park? Pre-op? Post-op? Looks the gender? Does not look the gender? Someone who claims to be transgender but you are 99.9% certain they are just saying that to get out of a parking ticket?
Looks like your solution would only add to the problem.
Yes, I admit that not everyone obeys everything all the time. I want you to look at The Marshmellow Test Video. The kids eat the marshmellows. Some struggle with going through with it, but really the net result is marshmallow eaten.
Now take this experiment and the results, age the kids up to the height of puberty and stick them in a coed bathroom. What results do you think you will get?
While the point isn't lost completely, I see one very important thing in the video: small children with nothing to do until the adult comes back, in an unspecified amount of time. I feel confident in saying that they're bored out of their minds, probably within seconds of the experimenter closing the door.
I can't speak for anyone else, and certainly not for the children in the video, but I certainly have times when I eat solely out of boredom. The experiment may have been trying to control for other temptations, but I think they should have also considered controlling for boredom.
Controlling for boredom would leave you with, uh, no experiment at all. Observing how kids handle temptation in the face of boredom is the whole point of the exercise.
Controlling for boredom would leave you with, uh, no experiment at all. Observing how kids handle temptation in the face of boredom is the whole point of the exercise.
I thought it was supposed to be handling temptation, not handling temptation in the face of boredom.
I don't think that's actually a distinction, which is why I don't think it can be controlled for. Temptation requires choosing to hold back from something and then later doing it anyway. When you're too busy to make that kind of long-term choice, there's no temptation, just an impulse. You need the spare thinking-time from "boredom" to actually be tempted. Some of the more successful kids used a strategy in keeping themselves busy in order to avoid the temptation, but they still had to make the choice to hold back first before deploying that strategy. The kids that ate the marshmallow immediately weren't under any temptation whatsoever, they just made a different initial choice.
I could say it would be because men needing to use stalls in a unisex bathroom would feel emasculated or be emasculated by their peers. There is a much more serious reason, however:
Rape.
Are you seriously suggesting that allowing transgender to use the bathroom they identify with would be allowing rape to happen? This is probably the most ridiculous idea of the litany of ridiculous ideas about this whole thing.
Here is the reality: Until this law, it wasn't actually illegal to use either restroom. That means, somehow, despite never being illegal, the incidence of public restroom-related crime have remained low for all of history. But all of a sudden we're concerned about it now? No, the 'safety' concerns are absolute nonsense.
You know what's illegal? The illegal things everyone is so worried about happening. When a creep goes into the women's room, he gets charged with the creeptastic actions he undertakes, not simply being there. The actual crimes are all that should be illegal, and it'll still be illegal even if trans people are allowed to keep their dignity when going to the toilet.
Controlling for boredom would leave you with, uh, no experiment at all. Observing how kids handle temptation in the face of boredom is the whole point of the exercise.
I thought it was supposed to be handling temptation, not handling temptation in the face of boredom.
The marshmallow test is totally ridiculous anyway. It's candy. The child knows it is candy, and therefore is more prone to eat it. There's no way to control for the fact that you're offering them something totally innocuous, that they know is harmless and delicious. You're not offering them ethical or moral choices along with that.
Can we please just drop this stupid test until someone provides a test that includes the kind of choice between rape and not rape? Because the choice of candy now or candy later doesn't represent that very well. I don't think it has any bearing on this discussion at all.
The other stupid part about the marshmallo test is that adult CHIMPS "passed" the test. From this I infer that the problem with impulse control is inherent to children but not necessarily all humans. Give the marshmallo test to adult humans or adults chimps and they will pass. Give it to children of either species and they will fail. So because human children lack impulse control you think this has any bearing on the impulse control of adults? Also, I would contend most people don't have an underlying desire to commit crime, particularly assault. I don't think we all have this innate deep dark desire to assault which we suppress. Rather, I would say most people don't have the desire to perv out in a bathroom. They don't even have the desire so impulse control isn't the issue. Not to mention the marshmallo test is off-topic.
I could say it would be because men needing to use stalls in a unisex bathroom would feel emasculated or be emasculated by their peers. There is a much more serious reason, however:
Rape.
Are you seriously suggesting that allowing transgender to use the bathroom they identify with would be allowing rape to happen? This is probably the most ridiculous idea of the litany of ridiculous ideas about this whole thing.
Here is the reality: Until this law, it wasn't actually illegal to use either restroom. That means, somehow, despite never being illegal, the incidence of public restroom-related crime have remained low for all of history. But all of a sudden we're concerned about it now? No, the 'safety' concerns are absolute nonsense.
You know what's illegal? The illegal things everyone is so worried about happening. When a creep goes into the women's room, he gets charged with the creeptastic actions he undertakes, not simply being there. The actual crimes are all that should be illegal, and it'll still be illegal even if trans people are allowed to keep their dignity when going to the toilet.
Let's be real, forcing people to use bathrooms that don't match their displayed gender identity will probably increase the amount of horrible bs they have to deal with. Like, transgender people are already more at risk of assault than cisgender people. Thinking about it now, cases of sexual assault of transgender people would probably go up if they're forced to use bathrooms that don't match their gender identity, just because most rapists are cisgender heterosexual (because by a large degree, most people are cisgender heterosexual).
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
I could say it would be because men needing to use stalls in a unisex bathroom would feel emasculated or be emasculated by their peers. There is a much more serious reason, however:
Rape.
Are you seriously suggesting that allowing transgender to use the bathroom they identify with would be allowing rape to happen? This is probably the most ridiculous idea of the litany of ridiculous ideas about this whole thing.
Here is the reality: Until this law, it wasn't actually illegal to use either restroom. That means, somehow, despite never being illegal, the incidence of public restroom-related crime have remained low for all of history. But all of a sudden we're concerned about it now? No, the 'safety' concerns are absolute nonsense.
You know what's illegal? The illegal things everyone is so worried about happening. When a creep goes into the women's room, he gets charged with the creeptastic actions he undertakes, not simply being there. The actual crimes are all that should be illegal, and it'll still be illegal even if trans people are allowed to keep their dignity when going to the toilet.
If you are going to quote me and go on a tirade, please read. My first post was short, but lets start with the OP:
magickware99: "But why just single-occupancy? Why not all bathrooms"
This was the question that I was answering. The OP is asking for the sake of equality. My answer was that the problem isn't equality, it has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with something primal that doesn't care about transgendered people because it happens not just in humans, but in other animals as well (sometimes one non-human species of animal rapes a different non-human species even).
Now we go to the same post you quoted from me, aka my first post in this thread: "So as far as single toilet restrooms being unisex, sure. I am just fine with that. It takes at least two people for a rape to occur: at least one assailant and a victim. If there is only one person in the bathroom, rape is not possible."
So because you too jumped on the human rights train without wondering about the original intent of gender segregated bathrooms. Berkas (you know the polarizing women's garb that only shows the eyes) were originally made (and yes I know their use has changed, just as gunpowder started in fireworks and then became weaponized) to keep the beauty of women from distracting the men, as well as letting only the husband view the full beauty of his bride. I'm not making another paragraph break here, but I want you to focus on this, I will not only repeat it but I will bold it and Billy Mayes it: take that inkling of distraction notion, and put that into practice with coed middle school bathroom with a whole bunch of horny hormone driven pubescent teenagers that are just noticing their loins? The same place where you have to expose your pelvis to do what you intended to do in that room (remove bodily waste)? That whole idea is ludicrous, even if you take rape out of the situation, we are talking new-to-puberty-children with exposed loins in the same room, which as mentioned before, is going to lead to an increase in teen pregnancy.
So, Jay13x, I know that was a lot of text, so I'll give a conclusion sentence: Making all multiple occupant public bathrooms coed would greatly increase the chance of rape due almost entirely by the expected actions of straight people... and having basically nothing to do with the bathroom choice of transgendered people.
Reading gives context!
The other stupid part about the marshmallo test is that adult CHIMPS "passed" the test. From this I infer that the problem with impulse control is inherent to children but not necessarily all humans. Give the marshmallo test to adult humans or adults chimps and they will pass. Give it to children of either species and they will fail. So because human children lack impulse control you think this has any bearing on the impulse control of adults? Also, I would contend most people don't have an underlying desire to commit crime, particularly assault. I don't think we all have this innate deep dark desire to assault which we suppress. Rather, I would say most people don't have the desire to perv out in a bathroom. They don't even have the desire so impulse control isn't the issue. Not to mention the marshmallo test is off-topic.
Really it isn't. The point that lead to it was: multiple occupancy coed bathrooms would be unsafe without some sort of surveillance (and I doubt the general populace wants a camera recording them drop a deuce.)
Surveillance stops a high amount of crime simply because people don't want to be caught doing something bad. This is why people planning crimes typically attempt to mask their identity, because if they are seen by a witness (or worse, a well placed camera) they'll be caught and get punished. Think of bank cameras, atm cameras, security cameras, red light cameras, cameras at property gates, back room cameras, etc. Humans adults can and will very easily give in to temptation if they want it bad enough. Otherwise jails would be filled by people that accidently did things (like manslaughter or property damage due to folly).
So that means: in order to counteract the increased opportunity of rape in the multiple occupancy coed bathrooms, there would need to be surveillance. Hence marshmellow test example.
Apologies, clearly you were making a different (although also problematic point).
If your point is hormonal teenagers can't handle using the same toilets... I'm not really sure how true that is. And to imply that boys won't be able to help but rape women just because they share a bathroom... that seems pretty presumptuous itself. If anything, sharing a place to poop will decrease the amount of sex going on in those places.
I find it interesting that previously there was no legal difference between gendered washrooms, just social. Which actually hits the crux of the issue, this is a social problem. And not something that will be solved in a few years, or even a few decades. The African-american civil rights movement took nearly 100 years to get equal rights, and even now there is discrimination. And the roots of that movement go back centuries. The gender identity issue is something that I would argue is rather unique in human history. There isn't a precedent that I am aware of, of a non-gendered society; as opposed to race which is a modern, western concept. Ultimate gender is a social construct we create, give it a few centuries and it will decline. It is already happening. What real reason is there for males to not wear dresses? Why can't a woman like sports, or be good at math. People are unique, and we can't generalize based on a thing like a chromosome.
If we just socially allow trans-gendered people to use their identifying washroom, we can just maintain the current social convention of gendered washrooms. Just modify it to suit the needs of modern society. This is a social issue, and it can only be fixed via social means.
You do realize that most rape is done by people who the victim knows right? This notion that some stranger is lurking in the woodwork just waiting for bathrooms to become unisex is quite absurd. I actually regret getting myself sucked into the debate.
You do realize that most rape is done by people who the victim knows right?
There is still a risk, as well as the fact that non-rapist creeps still exist that will likely try to take advantage(ie pornographers)
And it'll still be illegal, just like it is now. And it still happens, even now. Unisex bathrooms won't magically make more people perverted criminals.
Possible solutions:
1) Put Condoms in Bathrooms (I think this should be done anyways as its a lot more likely for a teen to use one if they are free and given in private).
2) Make less bathrooms, but bigger bathrooms. (This would force more people into the same room, thus decreasing the likelihood of any sexual healing).
3) No teacher bathrooms, make them use the same ones as kids. (Though I can see people mobbing already when a 28 yr old male teacher uses the same bathroom as a 14 yr old girl).
I'd have to agree with the rest of people on the teen preggo and rape discussion. I dont see it leading to a vast increase in either, and like someone said, will probably decrease the likelihood.
For instance with rape, currently people would avoid the scenario of stumbling across rape, they'd hear something and turn around before they saw, however if they did see, I'd venture that MOST people would at least give minimal effort to stop it. Now what happens if you put these 2 parties (rape-party and poo-party) into the same small room. Its a lot harder to ignore something you're socially and morally against when its right in front of you.
For the teen preggo issue, I turn to the case of alcohol related crimes and bs in America vs Europe. (*disclaimer, I'm american so am just saying what we think happens and what my cousins in europe say happens). Europe has much less of a stigma on alcohol, and a much lower issue with teens and alcohol vs America where there is tons of crazy ***** happening due to it.
You open up unisex bathrooms for teens, and you'll likely have a culture of kids that see sex as less of a boogeyman or temptation, and more of something that happens between two people with consent.
For the teen preggo issue, I turn to the case of alcohol related crimes and bs in America vs Europe. (*disclaimer, I'm american so am just saying what we think happens and what my cousins in europe say happens). Europe has much less of a stigma on alcohol, and a much lower issue with teens and alcohol vs America where there is tons of crazy ***** happening due to it.
You open up unisex bathrooms for teens, and you'll likely have a culture of kids that see sex as less of a boogeyman or temptation, and more of something that happens between two people with consent.
There is a lot more to the difference between American and European alcohol crime rates than that and it does not create anything close to an adequate analogy to teen pregnancy rates. Teens don't have sex in bathrooms because of some sort of forbidden fruit stigma (I'm still not convinced that school bathroom contribute more to teen pregnancy than other locations like bedrooms for example since no one has once shown data to indicate that bathrooms should more of a worry than other places to have sex) they do it because they have sex drives and spend time close to the opposite sex at school. There is a pretty short list of places to satisfy one's sex drive at a school and that list includes bathrooms.
[quote from="pyro1934 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/debate/685925-gender-neutral-bathrooms?comment=45"]Possible solutions:
1) Put Condoms in Bathrooms (I think this should be done anyways as its a lot more likely for a teen to use one if they are free and given in private).
2) Make less bathrooms, but bigger bathrooms. (This would force more people into the same room, thus decreasing the likelihood of any sexual healing).
3) No teacher bathrooms, make them use the same ones as kids. (Though I can see people mobbing already when a 28 yr old male teacher uses the same bathroom as a 14 yr old girl).quote]
I must say I feel foolish for not thinking of #1 for battling the teen pregnancy issue. I am now curious of the statistical difference of assaults that occur in larger versus smaller bathrooms. Lastly, I agree with your later sentiments in regards to number three, mostly because I think in most situations it would be the teachers' privacy invaded by the students (ex: "Hey, I caught a vine of Mr. Smith dropping a deuce! His fart was too long for the clip!")
@Jay13x: Just like how rec centers, sports, and clubs are set up to keep kids off the streets and "off the streets," not providing male and female teens unsupervised time at school is keeping them focused and "keeping them from ************". Lack of supervision allows for more mischief which leads to more trouble. The internet, /b/ especially, is a breeding ground for bullying, because honestly, you don't know who I am and can't catch me so I can call you all the names I want and belittle you however I please because I know I can't get caught so why not for the lulz! *Insert random insult* I have the unpoliced space to insult you anonymously within a mass of people, which means I'll probably do it more often (and look, people on the internet as a whole do). Providing space and opportunities does absolute wonders for increasing deviant human behavior.
Anyone who doubts an increase of sex in coed bathrooms, I would like to remind them of "the mile high club".
All right the next person who brings up teen pregnancy from sex in bathrooms needs to accompany it with hard data proving that sex in bathrooms is statistically relevant to teen pregnancy rates because I am very unconvinced that it is a real culprit in this issue at all.
[quote from="pyro1934 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/debate/685925-gender-neutral-bathrooms?comment=45"]Possible solutions:
1) Put Condoms in Bathrooms (I think this should be done anyways as its a lot more likely for a teen to use one if they are free and given in private).
2) Make less bathrooms, but bigger bathrooms. (This would force more people into the same room, thus decreasing the likelihood of any sexual healing).
3) No teacher bathrooms, make them use the same ones as kids. (Though I can see people mobbing already when a 28 yr old male teacher uses the same bathroom as a 14 yr old girl).quote]
I must say I feel foolish for not thinking of #1 for battling the teen pregnancy issue. I am now curious of the statistical difference of assaults that occur in larger versus smaller bathrooms. Lastly, I agree with your later sentiments in regards to number three, mostly because I think in most situations it would be the teachers' privacy invaded by the students (ex: "Hey, I caught a vine of Mr. Smith dropping a deuce! His fart was too long for the clip!")
@Jay13x: Just like how rec centers, sports, and clubs are set up to keep kids off the streets and "off the streets," not providing male and female teens unsupervised time at school is keeping them focused and "keeping them from ************". Lack of supervision allows for more mischief which leads to more trouble. The internet, /b/ especially, is a breeding ground for bullying, because honestly, you don't know who I am and can't catch me so I can call you all the names I want and belittle you however I please because I know I can't get caught so why not for the lulz! *Insert random insult* I have the unpoliced space to insult you anonymously within a mass of people, which means I'll probably do it more often (and look, people on the internet as a whole do). Providing space and opportunities does absolute wonders for increasing deviant human behavior.
Anyone who doubts an increase of sex in coed bathrooms, I would like to remind them of "the mile high club".
@dox: I'm not posting the main link for what I found because I don't want to be banned. I will however tell you how to find it.
Go to Bing and type in sex in bathrooms. The first recommended result is sex in middle schools. Searching for that brings up videos with content warning from news sources. Oh and since they are not OLD enough to buy contraception, please tell provide ME with statistics of whether not they bother to even procure any bit of contraception.
Otherwise: abcnews says this: "Students told us that some kids are having sex in school bathrooms and hallways — even in classrooms. " and also "The kids' definitions were different. They were a bit closer to President Clinton's definition. They said petting or touching wasn't sex. Oral sex wasn't sex. " This article covered things in Oklahoma and even Maryland. Also people are asking about having sex in bathrooms already, like on yahoo answers.
Yes, I said it: intercourse in bathrooms IS already happening, even in middle school. To the people who wish to step forward and claim "then why does it even matter if it is already happening?" I ask you this: there has been a string of break-ins throughout your community, should you unlock all your doors and open all of your windows, or should you make your house even more secure and/or a less savory target?" Making all middle school and high school bathrooms co-ed would only make the problem worse than it already is. I agree cameras are not the answer, but even having a supervisor who identifies as the proper gender for said gender bathroom goes in to wash his/her hands in the bathroom every thirty or so minutes is often enough presence and presence alone to intimidate would-be-trouble-makers from their possibly less savory actions (many fast food restaurants actually have their (co)managers do exactly this to cut down on vandalism).
Dox, I get that the OP wants transsexual people to be more comfortable and I respect that. I want them to be comfortable too, but this is not the proper course of action. The human race as whole is currently too primitive for widespread co-ed public bathrooms. As transsexuals are tied in with the LGBT community, they should probably look to the big names and organizations, such as the HRC, to run similar campaigns that were run to cut down on homosexuality hate (such as the "'That's so Gay?' Well, Ashley, how would you like it if someone did something lame and someone next to you and said 'OMG, that is SO Ashley'?" commercial).
Ru(e)? Paul's Drag Race and Modern Family are just some examples of shows that are doing a great job of keeping the LBGT community in the public eye and educating the masses about their existence and the fact that they are people too with wants, desires, strengths, weaknesses, and most importantly: feelings. Opening up co-ed bathrooms will NOT make transsexuals feel any less persecuted in places such as Mississippi, where they recently passed a bill that essentially says "One may deny access, service, or sale to anyone for any reason, as long as it isn't racial".
@dox: I'm not posting the main link for what I found because I don't want to be banned. I will however tell you how to find it.
Go to Bing and type in sex in bathrooms. The first recommended result is sex in middle schools. Searching for that brings up videos with content warning from news sources. Oh and since they are not OLD enough to buy contraception, please tell provide ME with statistics of whether not they bother to even procure any bit of contraception.
Otherwise: abcnews says this: "Students told us that some kids are having sex in school bathrooms and hallways — even in classrooms. " and also "The kids' definitions were different. They were a bit closer to President Clinton's definition. They said petting or touching wasn't sex. Oral sex wasn't sex. " This article covered things in Oklahoma and even Maryland. Also people are asking about having sex in bathrooms already, like on yahoo answers.
Yes, I said it: intercourse in bathrooms IS already happening, even in middle school. To the people who wish to step forward and claim "then why does it even matter if it is already happening?" I ask you this: there has been a string of break-ins throughout your community, should you unlock all your doors and open all of your windows, or should you make your house even more secure and/or a less savory target?" Making all middle school and high school bathrooms co-ed would only make the problem worse than it already is. I agree cameras are not the answer, but even having a supervisor who identifies as the proper gender for said gender bathroom goes in to wash his/her hands in the bathroom every thirty or so minutes is often enough presence and presence alone to intimidate would-be-trouble-makers from their possibly less savory actions (many fast food restaurants actually have their (co)managers do exactly this to cut down on vandalism).
Dox, I get that the OP wants transsexual people to be more comfortable and I respect that. I want them to be comfortable too, but this is not the proper course of action. The human race as whole is currently too primitive for widespread co-ed public bathrooms. As transsexuals are tied in with the LGBT community, they should probably look to the big names and organizations, such as the HRC, to run similar campaigns that were run to cut down on homosexuality hate (such as the "'That's so Gay?' Well, Ashley, how would you like it if someone did something lame and someone next to you and said 'OMG, that is SO Ashley'?" commercial).
Ru(e)? Paul's Drag Race and Modern Family are just some examples of shows that are doing a great job of keeping the LBGT community in the public eye and educating the masses about their existence and the fact that they are people too with wants, desires, strengths, weaknesses, and most importantly: feelings. Opening up co-ed bathrooms will NOT make transsexuals feel any less persecuted in places such as Mississippi, where they recently passed a bill that essentially says "One may deny access, service, or sale to anyone for any reason, as long as it isn't racial".
If you can't find data to support you claim then you cannot use that claim in your argument. If there is no data to suggest that sex in bathrooms is statistically relevant to teen pregnancy rates then you can't bring up teen pregnancy rates in your argument against gender neutral bathrooms. Don't just assume something happens then base your argument off of it please.
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I'm not sure that counts as a failure, since it was the goal in the first place.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/
Please don't TL;DR the topic. The topic is unisex bathrooms. The fear is the suffix of unisex. Suffix is the ending of a word in case you didn't know. As far as coitus is concerned, I am worried about the notion of having only unisex bathrooms due to the possibility of increasing rape statistics in public bathrooms and increasing teen pregnancy in schools. So yes, pregnancy has much to do with this bathroom topic.
@Taix
"An Oregon high school installed separate unisex bathrooms, giving a "third option" to its students, including those who identify as transgender, a school official said."
...
Did you know Family bathrooms are unisex? They are. Most of them have door locks on the main doors themselves. This Oregon hasn't done that persay, because "third option" is doing exactly what you suggested about parking garages (which as I stated have security measures including surveillance where bathrooms do not): segregation of the transgendered students to their own bathrooms.
Face it: everyone knows that the a body of people must have at least one member of their party meet at least one of these requirements for a Family restroom: Infantile to prepubescent with parent/guardian of opposite gender, special needs with caretaker, excessively enfeebled by one way or another through age that would need a caretaker, recovering from severe injury and needing a constant caretaker. If a party of people does not have anyone that meets the requirements, they typically use their respective bathrooms (male or female) instead. If there is only one person in a party, automatically they know they do not socially qualify to use the family restroom.
Oregon unisex bathrooms are for transgendered students just as a "black box recorder" is actually orange...or as you pointed out, the War on Drugs.
Why is this important? Highschoolers know how to label things. If someone wants to bully a transgender kid, they need only watch who goes in there to pick their target. Why wouldn't they typically go in to continue harassment? Aside from the heightened LGBTQphobia of being labeled exactly what they would be going in to persecute by entering said bathroom? Because the administration of that school is giving transgender kids special treatment and a special area that technically is open to the rest of the public (hey, you ever used a handicapped stall when not handicapped and then in the middle of your business had an actual handicapped person enter the restroom and wonder why in the nine layers of Phyrexia you are in there? You will be villianized, even if it was THE last stall open.) but it really isn't meant to be used by everyone in the public (Compare handicapped stalls to, wait for it...handicapped parking spaces! Can't park in those at ALL without a handicapped sticker, that is of course unless you wish to run the risk of being socially ridiculed and/or fined!). Yet again, most highschoolers can identify symbols. Differences are mined to build the social hierarchy. Ever wonder why the "Jocks" are always overtly male, both physically and via their broadcasted lifestyle?
The Oregon unisex bathroom is not a place to make the transgendered student feel like he or she belongs to one of the groups. It is a safe place for that student, due to social stigma, just it should have been during supervised teaching moments, and just like it was not in the unsupervised bathrooms said student was avoiding due to persecution (or worse, the article didn't say).
Thought the segregated parking lot comment would escape, didn't you? No. Aside from the aforementioned surveillance (seriously, I mentioned it BEFORE your male/female parking spots idea), how would that work with carpooling? Dating? Families? All of them in one car, a mixed bag of gender having to park in a single spot... how would that even work?
Lastly, to drive this counter home: a transgender person parks in your segregated parking lot. Where would you have them park? Pre-op? Post-op? Looks the gender? Does not look the gender? Someone who claims to be transgender but you are 99.9% certain they are just saying that to get out of a parking ticket?
Looks like your solution would only add to the problem.
I can't speak for anyone else, and certainly not for the children in the video, but I certainly have times when I eat solely out of boredom. The experiment may have been trying to control for other temptations, but I think they should have also considered controlling for boredom.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
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Here is the reality: Until this law, it wasn't actually illegal to use either restroom. That means, somehow, despite never being illegal, the incidence of public restroom-related crime have remained low for all of history. But all of a sudden we're concerned about it now? No, the 'safety' concerns are absolute nonsense.
You know what's illegal? The illegal things everyone is so worried about happening. When a creep goes into the women's room, he gets charged with the creeptastic actions he undertakes, not simply being there. The actual crimes are all that should be illegal, and it'll still be illegal even if trans people are allowed to keep their dignity when going to the toilet.
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The marshmallow test is totally ridiculous anyway. It's candy. The child knows it is candy, and therefore is more prone to eat it. There's no way to control for the fact that you're offering them something totally innocuous, that they know is harmless and delicious. You're not offering them ethical or moral choices along with that.
Can we please just drop this stupid test until someone provides a test that includes the kind of choice between rape and not rape? Because the choice of candy now or candy later doesn't represent that very well. I don't think it has any bearing on this discussion at all.
Art is life itself.
If you are going to quote me and go on a tirade, please read. My first post was short, but lets start with the OP:
magickware99: "But why just single-occupancy? Why not all bathrooms"
This was the question that I was answering. The OP is asking for the sake of equality. My answer was that the problem isn't equality, it has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with something primal that doesn't care about transgendered people because it happens not just in humans, but in other animals as well (sometimes one non-human species of animal rapes a different non-human species even).
Now we go to the same post you quoted from me, aka my first post in this thread: "So as far as single toilet restrooms being unisex, sure. I am just fine with that. It takes at least two people for a rape to occur: at least one assailant and a victim. If there is only one person in the bathroom, rape is not possible."
So because you too jumped on the human rights train without wondering about the original intent of gender segregated bathrooms. Berkas (you know the polarizing women's garb that only shows the eyes) were originally made (and yes I know their use has changed, just as gunpowder started in fireworks and then became weaponized) to keep the beauty of women from distracting the men, as well as letting only the husband view the full beauty of his bride. I'm not making another paragraph break here, but I want you to focus on this, I will not only repeat it but I will bold it and Billy Mayes it: take that inkling of distraction notion, and put that into practice with coed middle school bathroom with a whole bunch of horny hormone driven pubescent teenagers that are just noticing their loins? The same place where you have to expose your pelvis to do what you intended to do in that room (remove bodily waste)? That whole idea is ludicrous, even if you take rape out of the situation, we are talking new-to-puberty-children with exposed loins in the same room, which as mentioned before, is going to lead to an increase in teen pregnancy.
So, Jay13x, I know that was a lot of text, so I'll give a conclusion sentence: Making all multiple occupant public bathrooms coed would greatly increase the chance of rape due almost entirely by the expected actions of straight people... and having basically nothing to do with the bathroom choice of transgendered people.
Reading gives context!
Really it isn't. The point that lead to it was: multiple occupancy coed bathrooms would be unsafe without some sort of surveillance (and I doubt the general populace wants a camera recording them drop a deuce.)
Surveillance stops a high amount of crime simply because people don't want to be caught doing something bad. This is why people planning crimes typically attempt to mask their identity, because if they are seen by a witness (or worse, a well placed camera) they'll be caught and get punished. Think of bank cameras, atm cameras, security cameras, red light cameras, cameras at property gates, back room cameras, etc. Humans adults can and will very easily give in to temptation if they want it bad enough. Otherwise jails would be filled by people that accidently did things (like manslaughter or property damage due to folly).
So that means: in order to counteract the increased opportunity of rape in the multiple occupancy coed bathrooms, there would need to be surveillance. Hence marshmellow test example.
If your point is hormonal teenagers can't handle using the same toilets... I'm not really sure how true that is. And to imply that boys won't be able to help but rape women just because they share a bathroom... that seems pretty presumptuous itself. If anything, sharing a place to poop will decrease the amount of sex going on in those places.
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If we just socially allow trans-gendered people to use their identifying washroom, we can just maintain the current social convention of gendered washrooms. Just modify it to suit the needs of modern society. This is a social issue, and it can only be fixed via social means.
There is still a risk, as well as the fact that non-rapist creeps still exist that will likely try to take advantage(ie pornographers)
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1) Put Condoms in Bathrooms (I think this should be done anyways as its a lot more likely for a teen to use one if they are free and given in private).
2) Make less bathrooms, but bigger bathrooms. (This would force more people into the same room, thus decreasing the likelihood of any sexual healing).
3) No teacher bathrooms, make them use the same ones as kids. (Though I can see people mobbing already when a 28 yr old male teacher uses the same bathroom as a 14 yr old girl).
I'd have to agree with the rest of people on the teen preggo and rape discussion. I dont see it leading to a vast increase in either, and like someone said, will probably decrease the likelihood.
For instance with rape, currently people would avoid the scenario of stumbling across rape, they'd hear something and turn around before they saw, however if they did see, I'd venture that MOST people would at least give minimal effort to stop it. Now what happens if you put these 2 parties (rape-party and poo-party) into the same small room. Its a lot harder to ignore something you're socially and morally against when its right in front of you.
For the teen preggo issue, I turn to the case of alcohol related crimes and bs in America vs Europe. (*disclaimer, I'm american so am just saying what we think happens and what my cousins in europe say happens). Europe has much less of a stigma on alcohol, and a much lower issue with teens and alcohol vs America where there is tons of crazy ***** happening due to it.
You open up unisex bathrooms for teens, and you'll likely have a culture of kids that see sex as less of a boogeyman or temptation, and more of something that happens between two people with consent.
1) Put Condoms in Bathrooms (I think this should be done anyways as its a lot more likely for a teen to use one if they are free and given in private).
2) Make less bathrooms, but bigger bathrooms. (This would force more people into the same room, thus decreasing the likelihood of any sexual healing).
3) No teacher bathrooms, make them use the same ones as kids. (Though I can see people mobbing already when a 28 yr old male teacher uses the same bathroom as a 14 yr old girl).quote]
I must say I feel foolish for not thinking of #1 for battling the teen pregnancy issue. I am now curious of the statistical difference of assaults that occur in larger versus smaller bathrooms. Lastly, I agree with your later sentiments in regards to number three, mostly because I think in most situations it would be the teachers' privacy invaded by the students (ex: "Hey, I caught a vine of Mr. Smith dropping a deuce! His fart was too long for the clip!")
@Jay13x: Just like how rec centers, sports, and clubs are set up to keep kids off the streets and "off the streets," not providing male and female teens unsupervised time at school is keeping them focused and "keeping them from ************". Lack of supervision allows for more mischief which leads to more trouble. The internet, /b/ especially, is a breeding ground for bullying, because honestly, you don't know who I am and can't catch me so I can call you all the names I want and belittle you however I please because I know I can't get caught so why not for the lulz! *Insert random insult* I have the unpoliced space to insult you anonymously within a mass of people, which means I'll probably do it more often (and look, people on the internet as a whole do). Providing space and opportunities does absolute wonders for increasing deviant human behavior.
Anyone who doubts an increase of sex in coed bathrooms, I would like to remind them of "the mile high club".
1) Put Condoms in Bathrooms (I think this should be done anyways as its a lot more likely for a teen to use one if they are free and given in private).
2) Make less bathrooms, but bigger bathrooms. (This would force more people into the same room, thus decreasing the likelihood of any sexual healing).
3) No teacher bathrooms, make them use the same ones as kids. (Though I can see people mobbing already when a 28 yr old male teacher uses the same bathroom as a 14 yr old girl).quote]
I must say I feel foolish for not thinking of #1 for battling the teen pregnancy issue. I am now curious of the statistical difference of assaults that occur in larger versus smaller bathrooms. Lastly, I agree with your later sentiments in regards to number three, mostly because I think in most situations it would be the teachers' privacy invaded by the students (ex: "Hey, I caught a vine of Mr. Smith dropping a deuce! His fart was too long for the clip!")
@Jay13x: Just like how rec centers, sports, and clubs are set up to keep kids off the streets and "off the streets," not providing male and female teens unsupervised time at school is keeping them focused and "keeping them from ************". Lack of supervision allows for more mischief which leads to more trouble. The internet, /b/ especially, is a breeding ground for bullying, because honestly, you don't know who I am and can't catch me so I can call you all the names I want and belittle you however I please because I know I can't get caught so why not for the lulz! *Insert random insult* I have the unpoliced space to insult you anonymously within a mass of people, which means I'll probably do it more often (and look, people on the internet as a whole do). Providing space and opportunities does absolute wonders for increasing deviant human behavior.
Anyone who doubts an increase of sex in coed bathrooms, I would like to remind them of "the mile high club".
Otherwise: abcnews says this: "Students told us that some kids are having sex in school bathrooms and hallways — even in classrooms. " and also "The kids' definitions were different. They were a bit closer to President Clinton's definition. They said petting or touching wasn't sex. Oral sex wasn't sex. " This article covered things in Oklahoma and even Maryland. Also people are asking about having sex in bathrooms already, like on yahoo answers.
Yes, I said it: intercourse in bathrooms IS already happening, even in middle school. To the people who wish to step forward and claim "then why does it even matter if it is already happening?" I ask you this: there has been a string of break-ins throughout your community, should you unlock all your doors and open all of your windows, or should you make your house even more secure and/or a less savory target?" Making all middle school and high school bathrooms co-ed would only make the problem worse than it already is. I agree cameras are not the answer, but even having a supervisor who identifies as the proper gender for said gender bathroom goes in to wash his/her hands in the bathroom every thirty or so minutes is often enough presence and presence alone to intimidate would-be-trouble-makers from their possibly less savory actions (many fast food restaurants actually have their (co)managers do exactly this to cut down on vandalism).
Dox, I get that the OP wants transsexual people to be more comfortable and I respect that. I want them to be comfortable too, but this is not the proper course of action. The human race as whole is currently too primitive for widespread co-ed public bathrooms. As transsexuals are tied in with the LGBT community, they should probably look to the big names and organizations, such as the HRC, to run similar campaigns that were run to cut down on homosexuality hate (such as the "'That's so Gay?' Well, Ashley, how would you like it if someone did something lame and someone next to you and said 'OMG, that is SO Ashley'?" commercial).
Ru(e)? Paul's Drag Race and Modern Family are just some examples of shows that are doing a great job of keeping the LBGT community in the public eye and educating the masses about their existence and the fact that they are people too with wants, desires, strengths, weaknesses, and most importantly: feelings. Opening up co-ed bathrooms will NOT make transsexuals feel any less persecuted in places such as Mississippi, where they recently passed a bill that essentially says "One may deny access, service, or sale to anyone for any reason, as long as it isn't racial".