The vandals are obviously a vicious minority - they always are in these sorts of things. But among the peaceful protestors, "Justice for Brown" and "Don't Shoot Me!" seem to be much more popular refrains than "Truth" and "Transparency". The lack of transparency certainly inflamed the situation. But what I'm seeing now is not a crowd demanding the facts; I'm seeing a crowd that has, in the absence of facts, decided on its own what the facts must have been. And that disturbs me.
Really, really well said. Pretty much exactly where I take issue, only you made it sound better.
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And yeah, my bad - I thought that you meant all that stuff about the shooting itself, not the protests in their entirety. When I was discussing race/background as factors, I meant as they pertain to the presumption of guilt before actual evidence is presented. I absolutely agree the people who ARE protesting the strain/ect in the community have a valid point of view - I am just completely opposed to the sizable chuck that are out there with "justice for brown" posters.
Well, I mean, he DOES deserve justice. Nothing he did (including allegedly assaulting a police officer, if true) made him deserve death. And there is a legitimate fear in the black community that they won't see real justice, or that the Wilson would even be charged, which is the real concern.
EDIT: Jay one more thing - since their inital response wasnt transparent, do you think their actions AFTER the violence started were justified? I do think that the entire situation could have been handled better, but I don't think that doing anything is more appropriate than whipping out the heaviest weapons you can against bullets and bombs
The problem is that a lot of this was indiscriminate. An Al Jazeera news crew got tear gassed, for example. I'm not questioning the use of riot tactics for when violence broke out, but look at the difference between the reaction to the state police versus the ferguson police. Besides that, I sincerely doubt Ferguson police is well trained in Riot tactics (more on this in a second). Ferguson Police's tactics may not have been necessary had they a better system in place.
So, to establish some credibility here, I need to mention that I've been a part of riot training for police. Quantico has a mock small town for training, and my law enforcement explorer post participated in an exercise (as rioters). There are a few key things to understand about these situations:
- Tensions are incredibly high. Police Officers do not make the best decisions in this kind of situation, and can interpret everything as hostile.
- Due to the confusion, Officers can't be sure what is being thrown at them. We were given small dixie cups full of cat food to throw at cruisers for the Officers to exercise against as simulated rocks. The officers really thought we were throwing rocks at them, despite being told ahead of time what we were using.
- The officers without any real prior training or exercising in tactics responded very poorly. To the point where they injured a couple teenagers who were also volunteering.
- Tear gas sucks. No really, they actually tear gassed us. But it's effective and will disperse crowds.
- Do not pick up a tear gas grenade with your bare hands shortly after it goes off. You will lose your fingerprints for several weeks
Now, Ferguson police department can't afford to install their two dashboard cameras in their cruisers. Do you really think the officers received any real kind of riot training, and had been appropriately exercised on a regular basis so the officers would be knowledgeable and comfortable? Probably not, and I can tell you if you don't exercise your plans and protocols, things go to ***** really quickly.
Now, compare to that the State Police response, where State Police walked WITH the protestors instead of acting above and superior to a group of people who already feel belittled, betrayed and victimized. Makes a world of difference, doesn't it?
So, to be clear: I'm not against Ferguson police using riot gear when necessary, but I think the situation was preventable in the first place and I don't think they were appropriately trained for the situation.
When they write "justice for Brown", I don't think they mean "full investigation and the truth".
And, quite honestly, I think anyone who takes "justice for Brown" and believes it mean that is being a bit naive.
While I can't really parse your second sentence (you seem to be missing a few words?), I don't think it's fair to paint everyone with one brush. As I said, there are surely people for whom "justice" means "revenge". But it's not at all reasonable to suggest that no one protesting is capable of holding a more nuanced position than that.
But it's not at all reasonable to suggest that no one protesting is capable of holding a more nuanced position than that.
Sure. And it's also not at all reasonable to suggest that no one protesting is throwing homemade incendiaries. You're trying to say that the general trend of the protests is peaceful. I'm trying to say that the general trend of those peaceful protests is still anti-due-process. Like magicware said, "Justice for X" is a slogan that carries connotations well beyond justice for X.
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I fundamentally disagree with the idea that protests should be reduced to a single "general trend". There are lots of different views out there and it's not reasonable to try to pick one message and make that the only one that counts.
The whole point of a public demonstration is to show the people's solidarity for a particular message. Lots of people with lots of different views isn't a protest - that's just life. So I think it is extremely relevant asking what the message in Ferguson is supposed to be.
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Well, I mean, he DOES deserve justice. Nothing he did (including allegedly assaulting a police officer, if true) made him deserve death. And there is a legitimate fear in the black community that they won't see real justice, or that the Wilson would even be charged, which is the real concern.
See other posts - "justice for brown" is a step short of "kill the cop". The protestors and pundits on Brown's side are never actually concerned with the facts, they just want a witch hunt.
The problem is that a lot of this was indiscriminate. An Al Jazeera news crew got tear gassed, for example. I'm not questioning the use of riot tactics for when violence broke out, but look at the difference between the reaction to the state police versus the ferguson police. Besides that, I sincerely doubt Ferguson police is well trained in Riot tactics (more on this in a second). Ferguson Police's tactics may not have been necessary had they a better system in place.
...
Now, compare to that the State Police response, where State Police walked WITH the protestors instead of acting above and superior to a group of people who already feel belittled, betrayed and victimized. Makes a world of difference, doesn't it?
So, to be clear: I'm not against Ferguson police using riot gear when necessary, but I think the situation was preventable in the first place and I don't think they were appropriately trained for the situation.
First, I have to point out that the news crew gassing was accidental and immediately rectified. I will absolutely agree that the ferguson police were ill trained to handle this situation, and I will also agree that they could have done far, FAR better. However, this is more due to poor communication than it is the supposed "militarization of the police" that I keep hearing about - once the initial rage was seeded from the poor communication, nothing really changed. Even once the state troops success was short lived - within 12 hours the riots were back in full force (I can probably source that later, but the lull didn't even last a day). We're actually pretty close to agreeing on this, despite me coming off as contrary - I'm just a lot less critical of the police's actions after the riots began I think.
And finally
- Tear gas sucks. No really, they actually tear gassed us. But it's effective and will disperse crowds.
As someone who fled the communist regime in poland, I know exactly how effective it is >_<;
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I think "Justice for Brown" is an entirely admirable message, assuming we take it at face value. Justice is not vigilante reprisal, justice is a thorough and open investigation of the facts.
Except that's just it. The people who are saying, "Justice for Brown" are not saying that the case needs to be thoroughly examined to determine Brown's innocence or guilt. The people who are saying "Justice for Brown" are not calling for an open investigation into Brown's culpability in the incident leading to his shooting.
No, they are saying, "Justice for Brown" because they are presuming Brown's innocence, presuming Wilson's guilt, and are calling for an official investigation to officially declare the same verdict they have judged in their minds.
It is myopic to suggest otherwise. Were a trial to come up declaring Wilson not guilty, I don't think anyone in the "Justice for Brown" camp would consider justice to have been done, do you?
They don't want an open investigation of the facts. They want an open investigation of the facts to agree with what they have already decided is true. There is a significant difference between those two, and that difference is problematic, even if they do end up being in the right.
The whole point of a public demonstration is to show the people's solidarity for a particular message. Lots of people with lots of different views isn't a protest - that's just life. So I think it is extremely relevant asking what the message in Ferguson is supposed to be.
I don't agree with that. Is everyone who protests lending their support to the message which has the most signs, or the loudest yelling, or the most media attention? No. Protests can support a wider range of messages which are unified by dissatisfaction. To the extent that there is an overall message, it's that people are not happy with what happened and/or what they believe will happen next. Different protesters are unhappy about different aspects of what happened. They want different remedies. It's simply unproductive to try to pick one point from the crowd and declare that THE message in Ferguson.
I think "Justice for Brown" is an entirely admirable message, assuming we take it at face value. Justice is not vigilante reprisal, justice is a thorough and open investigation of the facts.
Except that's just it. The people who are saying, "Justice for Brown" are not saying that the case needs to be thoroughly examined to determine Brown's innocence or guilt. The people who are saying "Justice for Brown" are not calling for an open investigation into Brown's culpability in the incident leading to his shooting.
No, they are saying, "Justice for Brown" because they are presuming Brown's innocence, presuming Wilson's guilt, and are calling for an official investigation to officially declare the same verdict they have judged in their minds.
It is myopic to suggest otherwise. Were a trial to come up declaring Wilson not guilty, I don't think anyone in the "Justice for Brown" camp would consider justice to have been done, do you?
They don't want an open investigation of the facts. They want an open investigation of the facts to agree with what they have already decided is true. There is a significant difference between those two, and that difference is problematic, even if they do end up being in the right.
Yes, I think plenty of people would be satisfied by a transparent investigation and trial. Certainly not everyone would be. Certainly there are even people who don't want a trial, they just want Wilson dead. But it's ridiculous to say that you don't think -anyone- in that camp would consider justice to have been done. It's ridiculous to say "they want this" and "they don't want that", because there is no monolithic "they" to want or not want anything.
The idea that everyone out there protesting must be so simplistic as to be reducible to a slogan on a sign is belittling. People are not one-dimensional, and groups of people are even less one-dimensional.
But if I had to pick, and either have just people protesting for "justice = guilty verdict" or have no one protesting, I'd pick to have the protesters out there. I would much rather have people demand accountability, even if every one of them were doing so in a backwards and unintelligent way, because it's important that people make clear that they will not allow killing of civilians to go unchallenged, even if those killings turn out to be justified. The alternative, (at least, in this bizzaro-land version you guys have constructed, where no one can protest without throwing their voice behind an objectionable message) would be to have no clamor for accountability. To have a system where civilians can be killed and it will be quickly forgotten, because the police must know what's best.
What is this "They" stuff? Who are "they"? I am calling for Justice for Brown. I don't live in Ferguson. I'm not on the streets of Ferguson. I am still calling for Justice, as in let's find out what happened and prosecute if we have to. I don't appreciate being painted in broad strokes by you, and I don't appreciate the way you lump protestors into "they". You sound an awful lot like comments I read where it goes from "protestors" to "they" to "thugs" to "n------s get what they deserve".
I have not pre-judged the situation, but people who are blindly supporting one side or the other are fools at this point. I think the ones supporting the police officer are probably the bigger fools. They are leaning completely on rumors, as the police have not released their side of the story at all yet. We've just heard from friends of friends about his situation. Is that supposed to sit well 2 weeks after a death? No information?
I think "Justice for Brown" is an entirely admirable message, assuming we take it at face value. Justice is not vigilante reprisal, justice is a thorough and open investigation of the facts.
Except that's just it. The people who are saying, "Justice for Brown" are not saying that the case needs to be thoroughly examined to determine Brown's innocence or guilt. The people who are saying "Justice for Brown" are not calling for an open investigation into Brown's culpability in the incident leading to his shooting.
No, they are saying, "Justice for Brown" because they are presuming Brown's innocence, presuming Wilson's guilt, and are calling for an official investigation to officially declare the same verdict they have judged in their minds.
It is myopic to suggest otherwise. Were a trial to come up declaring Wilson not guilty, I don't think anyone in the "Justice for Brown" camp would consider justice to have been done, do you?
They don't want an open investigation of the facts. They want an open investigation of the facts to agree with what they have already decided is true. There is a significant difference between those two, and that difference is problematic, even if they do end up being in the right.
See other posts - "justice for brown" is a step short of "kill the cop". The protestors and pundits on Brown's side are never actually concerned with the facts, they just want a witch hunt.
Well, no. The previous posts said things like 'I feel like when they say justice, they mean X'. What the people of Ferguson want is accountability, and when they say justice, they want Wilson charged and indicted, not strung up, and they want to be better represented in the city, like in the Police force.
One could just as well say that you are the one who has decided what you will accept as facts and have already dismissed the voices of Ferguson's black population.
What? How does that even make sense? A fact-finding investigation is not a democracy. "The voices of Ferguson's black population" do not help the investigators determine the facts, except for those people who actually witnessed the event and happen to be black. They of course need to be heard out. Everybody else? No more probative than you or I.
Now, as far as the need for procedural and political reform in Ferguson goes, the voices of the black population are very important. You're certainly right that the incident report is a travesty, and the department needs to be held accountable for that. But these are issues entirely separate from that of the facts of the shooting itself.
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The voices of Ferguson, black or not, do help the investigators, because they demand that a full investigation be conducted in the first place. Without them, the department is free to release a cursory dismissal of any wrongdoing and move on. Without them, why should we believe there would be any real investigation?
These are the people whose recordings you trust to determine life or death, Doku.
No, I'm not - I think that we need a full investigation to find all the facts to determine what happened. I just think it is correct to err on the side of the officer in this case until those facts are uncovered, and I absolutely think that the people calling for Wilson's guilt are the most-wrong group in this whole thing.
One could just as well say that you are the one who has decided what you will accept as facts and have already dismissed the voices of Ferguson's black population.
See above. No, we're calling for the fair trial part - the protestors have already decided the outcome of that trial. Same as with the zimmerman shooting - no one who was protesting for "justice" wanted to settle for less than zimmerman's guilt, and they continued to insist on his guilt even after he was found innocent.
The difference between me and the protestors is that, if Wilson is fairly found to be guilty, I will agree that his actions were wrong. The protesters won't do the inverse if he is found innocent.
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So... what part of him twisting facts into a disingenuous narrative is valid? You might want to give more details - stewart peppers his "news" with more bull***** than hannity, and this particular segment has literally 0 to contribute to the discussion beyond proving that the pro-brown side doesn't actually look at facts.
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If you think Stewart, a man who is open about only pretending to be a newsman is worse than Hannity who is paid to pass of bull as fact, then it's you with the problem.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
While I love the Daily Show, you really shouldn't depend on it to provide your opinion for you. Jon Stewart is smart and funny (his interviews show that, at the very least, he has very canny staffers), but it's really hard to provide a balanced viewpoint on a 22-minute comedy program and the fact that it's funny can distract you from being critical about it.
Let's get this back on topic, shall we? It is recently coming out that police drove over a Michael Brown memorial and even reportedly let their police dogs pee on the evening of the shooting. Granted, the memorial was where he was shot in the street, but the lack of respect helps explain why the protests became so heated and further show the need for better public relations to help prevent the need for escalating police action.
And, quite honestly, I think anyone who takes "justice for Brown" and believes it mean that is being a bit naive.
Really, really well said. Pretty much exactly where I take issue, only you made it sound better.
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I should say it also depends on WHEN you tuned in. After the alleged robbery video was posted, a lot of people leapt on it.
Well, I mean, he DOES deserve justice. Nothing he did (including allegedly assaulting a police officer, if true) made him deserve death. And there is a legitimate fear in the black community that they won't see real justice, or that the Wilson would even be charged, which is the real concern.
The problem is that a lot of this was indiscriminate. An Al Jazeera news crew got tear gassed, for example. I'm not questioning the use of riot tactics for when violence broke out, but look at the difference between the reaction to the state police versus the ferguson police. Besides that, I sincerely doubt Ferguson police is well trained in Riot tactics (more on this in a second). Ferguson Police's tactics may not have been necessary had they a better system in place.
So, to establish some credibility here, I need to mention that I've been a part of riot training for police. Quantico has a mock small town for training, and my law enforcement explorer post participated in an exercise (as rioters). There are a few key things to understand about these situations:
- Tensions are incredibly high. Police Officers do not make the best decisions in this kind of situation, and can interpret everything as hostile.
- Due to the confusion, Officers can't be sure what is being thrown at them. We were given small dixie cups full of cat food to throw at cruisers for the Officers to exercise against as simulated rocks. The officers really thought we were throwing rocks at them, despite being told ahead of time what we were using.
- The officers without any real prior training or exercising in tactics responded very poorly. To the point where they injured a couple teenagers who were also volunteering.
- Tear gas sucks. No really, they actually tear gassed us. But it's effective and will disperse crowds.
- Do not pick up a tear gas grenade with your bare hands shortly after it goes off. You will lose your fingerprints for several weeks
Now, Ferguson police department can't afford to install their two dashboard cameras in their cruisers. Do you really think the officers received any real kind of riot training, and had been appropriately exercised on a regular basis so the officers would be knowledgeable and comfortable? Probably not, and I can tell you if you don't exercise your plans and protocols, things go to ***** really quickly.
Now, compare to that the State Police response, where State Police walked WITH the protestors instead of acting above and superior to a group of people who already feel belittled, betrayed and victimized. Makes a world of difference, doesn't it?
So, to be clear: I'm not against Ferguson police using riot gear when necessary, but I think the situation was preventable in the first place and I don't think they were appropriately trained for the situation.
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While I can't really parse your second sentence (you seem to be missing a few words?), I don't think it's fair to paint everyone with one brush. As I said, there are surely people for whom "justice" means "revenge". But it's not at all reasonable to suggest that no one protesting is capable of holding a more nuanced position than that.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
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See other posts - "justice for brown" is a step short of "kill the cop". The protestors and pundits on Brown's side are never actually concerned with the facts, they just want a witch hunt.
First, I have to point out that the news crew gassing was accidental and immediately rectified. I will absolutely agree that the ferguson police were ill trained to handle this situation, and I will also agree that they could have done far, FAR better. However, this is more due to poor communication than it is the supposed "militarization of the police" that I keep hearing about - once the initial rage was seeded from the poor communication, nothing really changed. Even once the state troops success was short lived - within 12 hours the riots were back in full force (I can probably source that later, but the lull didn't even last a day). We're actually pretty close to agreeing on this, despite me coming off as contrary - I'm just a lot less critical of the police's actions after the riots began I think.
And finally
As someone who fled the communist regime in poland, I know exactly how effective it is >_<;
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No, they are saying, "Justice for Brown" because they are presuming Brown's innocence, presuming Wilson's guilt, and are calling for an official investigation to officially declare the same verdict they have judged in their minds.
It is myopic to suggest otherwise. Were a trial to come up declaring Wilson not guilty, I don't think anyone in the "Justice for Brown" camp would consider justice to have been done, do you?
They don't want an open investigation of the facts. They want an open investigation of the facts to agree with what they have already decided is true. There is a significant difference between those two, and that difference is problematic, even if they do end up being in the right.
I don't agree with that. Is everyone who protests lending their support to the message which has the most signs, or the loudest yelling, or the most media attention? No. Protests can support a wider range of messages which are unified by dissatisfaction. To the extent that there is an overall message, it's that people are not happy with what happened and/or what they believe will happen next. Different protesters are unhappy about different aspects of what happened. They want different remedies. It's simply unproductive to try to pick one point from the crowd and declare that THE message in Ferguson.
Yes, I think plenty of people would be satisfied by a transparent investigation and trial. Certainly not everyone would be. Certainly there are even people who don't want a trial, they just want Wilson dead. But it's ridiculous to say that you don't think -anyone- in that camp would consider justice to have been done. It's ridiculous to say "they want this" and "they don't want that", because there is no monolithic "they" to want or not want anything.
The idea that everyone out there protesting must be so simplistic as to be reducible to a slogan on a sign is belittling. People are not one-dimensional, and groups of people are even less one-dimensional.
But if I had to pick, and either have just people protesting for "justice = guilty verdict" or have no one protesting, I'd pick to have the protesters out there. I would much rather have people demand accountability, even if every one of them were doing so in a backwards and unintelligent way, because it's important that people make clear that they will not allow killing of civilians to go unchallenged, even if those killings turn out to be justified. The alternative, (at least, in this bizzaro-land version you guys have constructed, where no one can protest without throwing their voice behind an objectionable message) would be to have no clamor for accountability. To have a system where civilians can be killed and it will be quickly forgotten, because the police must know what's best.
I have not pre-judged the situation, but people who are blindly supporting one side or the other are fools at this point. I think the ones supporting the police officer are probably the bigger fools. They are leaning completely on rumors, as the police have not released their side of the story at all yet. We've just heard from friends of friends about his situation. Is that supposed to sit well 2 weeks after a death? No information?
Well, no. The previous posts said things like 'I feel like when they say justice, they mean X'. What the people of Ferguson want is accountability, and when they say justice, they want Wilson charged and indicted, not strung up, and they want to be better represented in the city, like in the Police force.
And frankly,the unrest seems to be doing a good job of ensuring reform.
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Now, as far as the need for procedural and political reform in Ferguson goes, the voices of the black population are very important. You're certainly right that the incident report is a travesty, and the department needs to be held accountable for that. But these are issues entirely separate from that of the facts of the shooting itself.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
No, I'm not - I think that we need a full investigation to find all the facts to determine what happened. I just think it is correct to err on the side of the officer in this case until those facts are uncovered, and I absolutely think that the people calling for Wilson's guilt are the most-wrong group in this whole thing.
See above. No, we're calling for the fair trial part - the protestors have already decided the outcome of that trial. Same as with the zimmerman shooting - no one who was protesting for "justice" wanted to settle for less than zimmerman's guilt, and they continued to insist on his guilt even after he was found innocent.
The difference between me and the protestors is that, if Wilson is fairly found to be guilty, I will agree that his actions were wrong. The protesters won't do the inverse if he is found innocent.
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Because Jon Stewart puts it better than I could.
So... what part of him twisting facts into a disingenuous narrative is valid? You might want to give more details - stewart peppers his "news" with more bull***** than hannity, and this particular segment has literally 0 to contribute to the discussion beyond proving that the pro-brown side doesn't actually look at facts.
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The segment really contributes nothing beyond proving my point, so I wanted to know what part of that rant frost was agreeing with.
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Let's get this back on topic, shall we? It is recently coming out that police drove over a Michael Brown memorial and even reportedly let their police dogs pee on the evening of the shooting. Granted, the memorial was where he was shot in the street, but the lack of respect helps explain why the protests became so heated and further show the need for better public relations to help prevent the need for escalating police action.
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