The real problem isn't so much the race issue, but the militarization of the police. Given how the Ferguson riots have unfolded, the police militarization is finally getting outrage from mainstream media and politicians. This is no longer a conspiracy theory that everyone can laugh at. Seeing the police dressed like soldiers is very real, and extremely alarming. I don't see how a free society can coexist with the police being militarized the way they have in the past 10-15 years.
We are anything but free, that ship is long gone. As a country we are so controlled on such a subconscious level that we go about our lives never knowing.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
The times they gassed journalists was an accident - they immediately went in to help them.
You don't think it's just a wee bit irresponsible and reckless to deploy a chemical weapon such that innocent people are accidentally afflicted by it?
No more irresponsible than it was likely, given the chaos that the violent protests brought. You may argue that tear gas was excessive force to subdue the actual chaos that was happening, but I don't fault the cops for using it in light of the repeated calls to lynch them from the protestors.
More importantly, it was a mistake - the journalists were not targeted, but in the line of fire. The cops immediately went to help them once they realized the journalists were in danger. Mistakes happen - we should be happy that the worst mistakes that have happened during the protests so far have been harmless.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Commander Decks G MGC WB Teysa Tokens BR Wortsnort UG 23.5-No Edric URG Noncombo Animar GUB Damia Stax WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion WBR Daddy Tariel UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB WURG Glint-Eye Combo
We are anything but free, that ship is long gone. As a country we are so controlled on such a subconscious level that we go about our lives never knowing.
This is absurd.
If I understand what you're insinuating, then arguably that has gone on since the existence of any type of organized society.
Something as simple as the color of a product influences the way we think about it. Once you figure out how people think, it is not that hard to sway people in certain ways.
The government has way to much power nowadays. Everything is controlled in some way shape or form. Sure we can pick burger king or mcdonalds, expresso or decaf, but as far as true freedom, we just don't have any of that going on. Look at what the protests have done..... Nothing. They have 0 power. The legal system is going to do it's thing and that's that. The problem with true freedom is that people would just go back to the stone age and start killing each other. To progress as a society as time goes on, we pass more and more control of our lives over to a governing body. It's based on Freedom vs. Security, they are inversely related.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
So a funny story - if the cops were actually in the army, they'd be breaking the geneva convention. Tear gas is a *prohibited weapon* in a warzone, but on civilians? No problem.
I think blinking spirit is mostly correct - it is difficult for anyone to know what happened originally, and even harder to seperate that from the fictions that have sprung up since.
What I think is pretty clear is that the response of the cops since has been appalling. The level of civil disobedience being displayed is, in the scheme of things, quite benign - it could be a whole lot worse. But the cops are repeatedly breaching your constitution - arresting reporters for pretty much just reporting is beyond insane.
So a funny story - if the cops were actually in the army, they'd be breaking the geneva convention. Tear gas is a *prohibited weapon* in a warzone, but on civilians? No problem.
I think blinking spirit is mostly correct - it is difficult for anyone to know what happened originally, and even harder to seperate that from the fictions that have sprung up since.
What I think is pretty clear is that the response of the cops since has been appalling. The level of civil disobedience being displayed is, in the scheme of things, quite benign - it could be a whole lot worse. But the cops are repeatedly breaching your constitution - arresting reporters for pretty much just reporting is beyond insane.
Current and former military members have come out of the woodwork to comment on just how stupid, irresponsible and inappropriate the police response has been. It's been a disaster. Also race IS a factor in this. People that think otherwise are either deluded or have an agenda.
It sounds like you're more concerned with fitting the news to your no-freedom narrative than actually reading it. Local, state, and federal law enforcement have steadily been changing their handling of the case in response to the protests. Greater transparency, FBI oversight... what do you think the protests should have been able to accomplish?
So a funny story - if the cops were actually in the army, they'd be breaking the geneva convention. Tear gas is a *prohibited weapon* in a warzone, but on civilians? No problem.
Quite a few things in the police arsenal are like that. Like hollow-point bullets. (And there's actually a good reason for it: cops are more likely to be shooting in civilian-inhabited areas where overpenetration and ricochets could cause serious problems.)
Also race IS a factor in this. People that think otherwise are either deluded or have an agenda.
Race is a factor in the unrest, obviously. We don't know if it was a factor in the shooting. Probably, but presumption of innocence, right? And strictly speaking, it doesn't matter whether race was involved in the shooting or not. Wilson could have been crazy racist and still justified, if Brown was attacking him. And Wilson could have been perfectly tolerant and still culpable, if Brown wasn't attacking him. Racism is not an element of the alleged crime.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Race is a factor in the unrest, obviously. We don't know if it was a factor in the shooting. Probably, but presumption of innocence, right? And strictly speaking, it doesn't matter whether race was involved in the shooting or not. Wilson could have been crazy racist and still justified, if Brown was attacking him. And Wilson could have been perfectly tolerant and still culpable, if Brown wasn't attacking him. Racism is not an element of the alleged crime.
I never mentioned the shooting so freely speculate on that as you like. Also I didn't say the part about tear gas, do not quote me on that.
What I think is pretty clear is that the response of the cops since has been appalling. The level of civil disobedience being displayed is, in the scheme of things, quite benign - it could be a whole lot worse. But the cops are repeatedly breaching your constitution - arresting reporters for pretty much just reporting is beyond insane.
Dozens of businesses looted, others razed to the ground, molotov cocktails, rocks, fights between protesters and with the cops, hospitalizations, and countless amounts of property damage and destroyed vehicles - yeah, benign.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Commander Decks G MGC WB Teysa Tokens BR Wortsnort UG 23.5-No Edric URG Noncombo Animar GUB Damia Stax WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion WBR Daddy Tariel UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB WURG Glint-Eye Combo
What I think is pretty clear is that the response of the cops since has been appalling. The level of civil disobedience being displayed is, in the scheme of things, quite benign - it could be a whole lot worse. But the cops are repeatedly breaching your constitution - arresting reporters for pretty much just reporting is beyond insane.
Dozens of businesses looted, others razed to the ground, molotov cocktails, rocks, fights between protesters and with the cops, hospitalizations, and countless amounts of property damage and destroyed vehicles - yeah, benign.
The State Police officer who took over the police force has gone on record saying all those problems were done by a minority of agitators in the crowd. Many reports on the looters were that they may have actually largely been form nearby St. Louis, not Ferguson natives.
In any case, Brown's state of mind or his guilt in the robbery are completely irrelevant to the case at hand. Even if he attack Officer Wilson, it's irrelevant. Brown was shot while facing the Officer from 35 feet away. So if Brown did attack Wilson, what sequence of events had to play out for Brown to be shot in the front after getting so far away from the officer?
We don't know, and that's a rather large problem. The public information on this issue has been abysmal, and the police have attempted to obfuscate if further by release details on the robbery that Officer Wilson didn't about. The reason people are so upset is because this whole thing smacks of some sort of cover-up.
Now, to put it in perspective, the shooting of the armed suspect (with a knife) in St. Louis last week was a good shoot. The police didn't fire until the suspect was in range to actually hurt them, an ambulance was called and the suspect was immediately transported to a hospital (although he was dead) and the department immediately issued a statement and even released video of the incident. By comparison, an ambulance wasn't called for Brown until well after he was shot, he was shot almost as many times as the four officers shot the knife-wielding suspect in St. Louis, except Brown was shot by only one officer, and Ferguson Police had been inflaming the situation by either making ignorant statements or not releasing any real information until there had been more than enough time to work out stories. Even their release of the robbery video, paired with the shooting officer's name, was deliberately inflammatory.
Something as simple as the color of a product influences the way we think about it. Once you figure out how people think, it is not that hard to sway people in certain ways.
The government has way to much power nowadays. Everything is controlled in some way shape or form. Sure we can pick burger king or mcdonalds, expresso or decaf, but as far as true freedom, we just don't have any of that going on. Look at what the protests have done..... Nothing. They have 0 power. The legal system is going to do it's thing and that's that. The problem with true freedom is that people would just go back to the stone age and start killing each other. To progress as a society as time goes on, we pass more and more control of our lives over to a governing body. It's based on Freedom vs. Security, they are inversely related.
What do you mean by "true freedom"? Actual freedom as in I can be free to murder you if I want to?
As I said, what you write is absurd. True freedom as in the way you seem to be talking about it has never existed in any organized society.
The State Police officer who took over the police force has gone on record saying all those problems were done by a minority of agitators in the crowd. Many reports on the looters were that they may have actually largely been form nearby St. Louis, not Ferguson natives.
That appears to be mostly the case, but the source of the criminality is not particularly relevant. Especially since the police can't just eject all outsiders from Ferguson and cordon off the town to prevent any more from coming in. The looters and rioters are there, and the police have to respond to them the same way no matter where they came from.
Now, to put it in perspective, the shooting of the armed suspect (with a knife) in St. Louis last week was a good shoot. The police didn't fire until the suspect was in range to actually hurt them, an ambulance was called and the suspect was immediately transported to a hospital (although he was dead) and the department immediately issued a statement and even released video of the incident. By comparison, an ambulance wasn't called for Brown until well after he was shot, he was shot almost as many times as the four officers shot the knife-wielding suspect in St. Louis, except Brown was shot by only one officer, and Ferguson Police had been inflaming the situation by either making ignorant statements or not releasing any real information until there had been more than enough time to work out stories. Even their release of the robbery video, paired with the shooting officer's name, was deliberately inflammatory.
You seem to be mixing together the shooting itself and the after-the-fact ineptitude by the police department. Now, the fact that the department as a whole has mishandled this so badly does not exactly give me confidence that the representative of their number named Darren Wilson is a paragon of competent professionalism. But that is of course wildly circumstantial. I think what you're trying to say is not that the St. Louis incident was a good shoot and the Ferguson incident was a bad shoot, but rather that the St. Louis incident was a transparently good shoot and the Ferguson incident is opaque.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
That appears to be mostly the case, but the source of the criminality is not particularly relevant. Especially since the police can't just eject all outsiders from Ferguson and cordon off the town to prevent any more from coming in. The looters and rioters are there, and the police have to respond to them the same way no matter where they came from.
Also in the area of police response. It has, again mostly be ex military, as well as ex police that, and this is just mentioning once aspect. The gear being worn by the police in a variety of photos is extremely poor in choice for actually handing rioters.
The State Police officer who took over the police force has gone on record saying all those problems were done by a minority of agitators in the crowd. Many reports on the looters were that they may have actually largely been form nearby St. Louis, not Ferguson natives.
As others have said - the source of the violence doesn't matter. Its happening, there is a LOT of it, and the police have to respond with appropriate force. Would you rather they go into molotov cocktails in shirts and dress shoes?
In any case, Brown's state of mind or his guilt in the robbery are completely irrelevant to the case at hand. Even if he attack Officer Wilson, it's irrelevant. Brown was shot while facing the Officer from 35 feet away. So if Brown did attack Wilson, what sequence of events had to play out for Brown to be shot in the front after getting so far away from the officer?
I don't think anyone is claiming this - of course, actual evidence will be the determining factor once it is available. In the interim, I believe that it is correct to give the benefit of the doubt to the person that seems less likely to have done something wrong. However, if you believe that prior history of action of both individuals (brown's criminal past and the officer's clean record with regard to racial incidents) shouldn't tilt your judgment in either direction before evidence is presented, can we agree that race has absolutely no bearing on this event at the people protesting on racial grounds are completely in the wrong?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Commander Decks G MGC WB Teysa Tokens BR Wortsnort UG 23.5-No Edric URG Noncombo Animar GUB Damia Stax WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion WBR Daddy Tariel UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB WURG Glint-Eye Combo
alright, Jay, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to call shenanigans on the whole 35 feet away thing. source, please. Because everything I can find indicates that he was shot between 1 foot and 30 feet, and none give an exact number. The only mention of 35 feet is what the "overall scene" was, and that really isn't indicative of how far apart they were, especially since the coroner ruled that distance out.
Also, the coroner (and the FBI) have ordered a toxicology report as well as an examination of his clothes. I'm just going to say, again, that we don't know enough, and that we should probably double check facts, and let THOSE guide us, instead of our emotions.
I think what you're trying to say is not that the St. Louis incident was a good shoot and the Ferguson incident was a bad shoot, but rather that the St. Louis incident was a transparently good shoot and the Ferguson incident is opaque.
As others have said - the source of the violence doesn't matter. Its happening, there is a LOT of it, and the police have to respond with appropriate force. Would you rather they go into molotov cocktails in shirts and dress shoes?
Uh, no, a response was obviously necessary. But you do know that tactical gear isn't fireproof, right? Body armor and camo doesn't protect you from fire and more than a shirt and dress shoes.
However, if you believe that prior history of action of both individuals (brown's criminal past and the officer's clean record with regard to racial incidents) shouldn't tilt your judgment in either direction before evidence is presented, can we agree that race has absolutely no bearing on this event at the people protesting on racial grounds are completely in the wrong?
No, we can't. Ferguson is 2/3rds black, and their police force is 1/25th black. The police responded to this incident with a complete lack of transparency. I'm not saying Officer Wilson is racist or the shooting was racially motivated, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed. Especially when there is so much character assassination going around.
In cases like this it's all about the perception, and it's really not hard to see why the black population of Ferguson feels victimized.
alright, Jay, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to call shenanigans on the whole 35 feet away thing. source, please. Because everything I can find indicates that he was shot between 1 foot and 30 feet, and none give an exact number. The only mention of 35 feet is what the "overall scene" was, and that really isn't indicative of how far apart they were, especially since the coroner ruled that distance out.
Sorry, it was 35 feet away from the police car, to be specific. The coroner also ruled out a close range shot, due to the lack of gunpowder on the body. If the supposed sequence of events is true that Brown went for the gun, a shot was fire inside the cruiser, I still want to know how they got 35 feet away from the cruiser in a situation with Brown getting shot six times in the front from a distance greater than about 3-5 feet (which is where gunpowder residue is detectable).
well, gunpowder burn would show up on the body under clothes between a foot and three feet away, iirc. so, if there is gunpowder burns on the clothes, that gives a range of 3 to 5 feet.
I honestly want to know how they got so far from the cruiser, too. (if they even did. The key witness has already been discredited by the autopsy showing that none of the bullets came from the back.) A way I could see it is if Wilson pursued Brown (which he may have, since at that point Brown was a fleeing suspect.) Then, Brown turns and starts charging/surrendering, and the shots are fired.
Note, I could be completely wrong about this. I am trying to give as neutral a theory as I can.
No adult arrest record. He's 18. His juvenile record is currently sealed, but there is a lawsuit pending to get it. And considering that his friend had an outstanding warrant and admitted that they were stealing, AND tox came back positive for pot in his system, you seem a bit silly.
You -DO- know that the claims that he paid for it are speculation, right? The video is far from clear, and yet someone in the store called it in, and brown's friend confirmed it.
So, because Brown lived in a neighborhood full of black criminals, despite his "clean record", we can assume he was a cop hating thug as well, and is most assuredly at fault, right? Cool. If not, you're gonna have to accept that Wilson doesn't have anything racial on record.
Uh, no, a response was obviously necessary. But you do know that tactical gear isn't fireproof, right? Body armor and camo doesn't protect you from fire and more than a shirt and dress shoes.
It sure as hell protects better against bullets, which protesters have also used. What kind of response would you suggest to the unruly mobs in ferguson that adequately protects the officers? Hell, even with what they're doing there are injuries daily.
No, we can't. Ferguson is 2/3rds black, and their police force is 1/25th black. The police responded to this incident with a complete lack of transparency. I'm not saying Officer Wilson is racist or the shooting was racially motivated, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed. Especially when there is so much character assassination going around.
In cases like this it's all about the perception, and it's really not hard to see why the black population of Ferguson feels victimized.
This is horse *****. Doesnt matter who feels victimized, and that absolutely has no bearing on the likelihood of Wilson killing in cold blood - if anything, it lends credence to the suggestion that brown attacked him. If prior racial tension is fair game, so is the prior history of both individuals. (I'd argue that it makes more sense to rely on the latter)
I'm not saying that there isn't a racism problem in ferguson, but to start by implying that wilson is most likely racist and then to ignore every issue with brown - now THATS character assassination (And, funnily enough, exactly what the media has been doing).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Commander Decks G MGC WB Teysa Tokens BR Wortsnort UG 23.5-No Edric URG Noncombo Animar GUB Damia Stax WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion WBR Daddy Tariel UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB WURG Glint-Eye Combo
(And, funnily enough, exactly what the media has been doing).
Honestly, it depends on your media. Conservative outlets are pushing the Brown as a 'thug' aspect, and it's gone viral on social media even though very little of it is true. Liberal outlets are going after Wilson somewhat, but are mostly focused on the ineptitude of the police force.
I should also note that the protests in Ferguson are NOT just about Brown. A community doesn't respond like that to a single incident, they respond because of a pattern that came to a head in the Brown shooting.
I also think you're all misunderstanding what I'm saying about the police reaction to the protests. Openness and transparency would have been the fastest way to stem the tide. Tempers get high on both sides during these events, and the Ferguson police handled the situation (from a public information and community outreach perspective) incredibly poorly and helped stoke the tensions rather than help resolve them. Getting replaced by the State Police was the best thing that could have happened.
I've never been a fan of the whole race card thing. I didn't like how they tried to turn the Trayvon Martin case into nothing but a hate crime, they even tried to make Zimmerman, who is latino, into a white guy just because he has a funny last name. It was a stretch in my eyes and in this case, I don't think it was about race either.
However, this idea that police are allowed to kill someone as long as they can invent a good story is outright bull*****. On top of that, you have a militarized police department preventing people from peaceful protest with violence. Then a few weeks later another guy is killed by police and it's caught on video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXF9ddW0lGA&bpctr=1408984879 Say what you want about it, but I don't understand why tasers weren't used.
"Every issue" with Michael Brown, eh? So, how does for example having done weed justify his killing? How would stealing a box of smokes justify his killing?
I do not know about 'justify' but it provides a possible reason for why he might have attacked a police officer. At the heart of this is really who started the altercation. If Brown attacked the police officer then is quite possible that he tried to charge him afterwards and thus was shot in self defense. If Wilson started the altercation for no real reason then it becomes plausible that he killed Brown after Brown started to surrender.
It is clear that this case will end up being about the credibility of the witnesses. Some eyewitnesses seem to support the pro-Brown version of events and some the pro-Wilson version.
Honestly, it depends on your media. Conservative outlets are pushing the Brown as a 'thug' aspect, and it's gone viral on social media even though very little of it is true. Liberal outlets are going after Wilson somewhat, but are mostly focused on the ineptitude of the police force.
I should also note that the protests in Ferguson are NOT just about Brown. A community doesn't respond like that to a single incident, they respond because of a pattern that came to a head in the Brown shooting.
I also think you're all misunderstanding what I'm saying about the police reaction to the protests. Openness and transparency would have been the fastest way to stem the tide. Tempers get high on both sides during these events, and the Ferguson police handled the situation (from a public information and community outreach perspective) incredibly poorly and helped stoke the tensions rather than help resolve them. Getting replaced by the State Police was the best thing that could have happened.
I.. dont really watch conservative media. But fair enough
And yeah, my bad - I thought that you meant all that stuff about the shooting itself, not the protests in their entirety. When I was discussing race/background as factors, I meant as they pertain to the presumption of guilt before actual evidence is presented. I absolutely agree the people who ARE protesting the strain/ect in the community have a valid point of view - I am just completely opposed to the sizable chuck that are out there with "justice for brown" posters.
EDIT: Jay one more thing - since their inital response wasnt transparent, do you think their actions AFTER the violence started were justified? I do think that the entire situation could have been handled better, but I don't think that doing anything is more appropriate than whipping out the heaviest weapons you can against bullets and bombs
"Every issue" with Michael Brown, eh? So, how does for example having done weed justify his killing? How would stealing a box of smokes justify his killing? You love your records but don't stop to think for a moment that it's a lopsided metric when the people deciding who does and does not get one are the Ferguson police department who've, well, not exercised the level of judgement they should. How would a juvenile record justify his killing, anyway? You accuse "The Media" of character assassination while pretending that anyone spending a lot of words on calling Michael Brown a thug is the righteous underdog and not part of a massive propaganda machine.
When I say "the media", What I mean is the media* (*excluding extreme news sources such as fox and msnbc). Middle-of-the-road news organizations are absolutely siding with brown on this narrative. And I'm not giving justifications for killing - I am simply saying that, prior to the actual forensic evidence and all that, as we dole out guilt or innocence the way we ALWAYS do, we should at least be rational about it. We currently have two narratives - one where Brown was an innocent being picked on, and the other where he assaulted an officer. You, and many others, are quick to label Wilson in the wrong - why? Fact is, that someone with a criminal past is more likely to act criminally than someone who isn't. Someone WITHOUT a personal history of racism is less likely to be racist than someone who does. Yet, you take the broadest possible factor "he lives in an area with a lot of racists" and compare it to the narrowest factor "brown's parents called him a gentle giant!" - that is silly. Compare like to with. If wilson lives in an area with white racists, brown lives in an area with black criminals. If brown's personal history is how you defend him, the wilson's perfect record should be as well.
Keep in mind, all of this means nothing once we have the entire body of evidence - but until then, you, and all the "justice for brown" protestors need to stow your guns or find a better argument, because from the facts it really just looks like you're playing the race card.
"I'm not saying that there isn't a racism problem in Ferguson, but" lmao
That so perfectly reveals the perspective that you're coming from. You cast yourself as the reasonable moderate who of course agrees that there is a problem but in this case the injustice was totally justified and aren't the oppressed just too angry about this? Michael Brown was no angel and Darren Wilson has never been officially reprimanded for anything, after all!
You have no understanding of systemic racism. You're particularly pathetic because you have no understanding that the double standards even exist while revelling in them.
Actually, that top line was poking a bit of fun at jay, but I'll run with it - I am acknowledging the potential racial tension that exists within ferguson - and in fact, there is probably a valid point there that needs to be addressed. However, there is currently 0 proof that ANY racism was involved in this indecent beyond the color of their skin, and the testimony of a small handful of witnesses. In fact, the police department has more witnesses verifying wilson's story. To take racial tensions and run with it to conclude "Wilson probably shot brown beacuse he was black." just doesn't work for me, and actually upsets me - What you're really saying is that Wilson is guilty because he is white, and nothing more.
I think it's good that people protest when police kill someone. I would much rather have people protest to ensure accountability, even when it turns out that a shooting was necessary, than have people be apathetic and allow police to act without accountability. We should never give the government so much trust that we are willing to simply accept their word when they kill a citizen, and a healthy, peaceful protest shows that the police will be held to a high standard. To simply sit back and let the government investigate itself and then tell us that everything is fine is foolish. People have to demand transparency and justice if they're going to get it.
Obviously, this doesn't mean that any form of protest or any message from protesters is good. Looting, vandalism, arson, etc. are obviously unjustified regardless of what the truth of the situation turns out to be. Demands that the officer be punished outside of due process are similarly unacceptable. But there will always be those who see unrest as an opportunity for criminality, and those who see protests as a platform for extremism.
The standard we should set for police is that an encounter with a civilian does not result in anyone getting killed (and that includes the officer). There will be instances where an officer's hand is forced, and they have no choice but to shoot to kill. Maybe it will turn out that this was one of those cases, but we have to send a message that the public's expectations are high, and deaths will not be met with complacency.
Obviously, this doesn't mean that any form of protest or any message from protesters is good. Looting, vandalism, arson, etc. are obviously unjustified regardless of what the truth of the situation turns out to be. Demands that the officer be punished outside of due process are similarly unacceptable. But there will always be those who see unrest as an opportunity for criminality, and those who see protests as a platform for extremism.
The vandals are obviously a vicious minority - they always are in these sorts of things. But among the peaceful protestors, "Justice for Brown" and "Don't Shoot Me!" seem to be much more popular refrains than "Truth" and "Transparency". The lack of transparency certainly inflamed the situation. But what I'm seeing now is not a crowd demanding the facts; I'm seeing a crowd that has, in the absence of facts, decided on its own what the facts must have been. And that disturbs me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I think "Justice for Brown" is an entirely admirable message, assuming we take it at face value. Justice is not vigilante reprisal, justice is a thorough and open investigation of the facts. A demand for justice for Brown is a statement that the public will not allow the matter to be quietly dismissed or swept under the rug. And that's exactly what people need to be asking for. If a full investigation is conducted and it reveals that Brown gave the officer no choice but to shoot him, then that will be justice for Brown.
Now, I certainly grant that some people do mean "vigilante reprisal" or mean "railroaded show trial". Obviously, these messages are unacceptable and disturbing, but I don't think we can dismiss everyone who is demanding justice as bloodthirsty.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
We are anything but free, that ship is long gone. As a country we are so controlled on such a subconscious level that we go about our lives never knowing.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
No more irresponsible than it was likely, given the chaos that the violent protests brought. You may argue that tear gas was excessive force to subdue the actual chaos that was happening, but I don't fault the cops for using it in light of the repeated calls to lynch them from the protestors.
More importantly, it was a mistake - the journalists were not targeted, but in the line of fire. The cops immediately went to help them once they realized the journalists were in danger. Mistakes happen - we should be happy that the worst mistakes that have happened during the protests so far have been harmless.
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
This is absurd.
If I understand what you're insinuating, then arguably that has gone on since the existence of any type of organized society.
The government has way to much power nowadays. Everything is controlled in some way shape or form. Sure we can pick burger king or mcdonalds, expresso or decaf, but as far as true freedom, we just don't have any of that going on. Look at what the protests have done..... Nothing. They have 0 power. The legal system is going to do it's thing and that's that. The problem with true freedom is that people would just go back to the stone age and start killing each other. To progress as a society as time goes on, we pass more and more control of our lives over to a governing body. It's based on Freedom vs. Security, they are inversely related.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I think blinking spirit is mostly correct - it is difficult for anyone to know what happened originally, and even harder to seperate that from the fictions that have sprung up since.
What I think is pretty clear is that the response of the cops since has been appalling. The level of civil disobedience being displayed is, in the scheme of things, quite benign - it could be a whole lot worse. But the cops are repeatedly breaching your constitution - arresting reporters for pretty much just reporting is beyond insane.
Current and former military members have come out of the woodwork to comment on just how stupid, irresponsible and inappropriate the police response has been. It's been a disaster. Also race IS a factor in this. People that think otherwise are either deluded or have an agenda.
Quite a few things in the police arsenal are like that. Like hollow-point bullets. (And there's actually a good reason for it: cops are more likely to be shooting in civilian-inhabited areas where overpenetration and ricochets could cause serious problems.)
Race is a factor in the unrest, obviously. We don't know if it was a factor in the shooting. Probably, but presumption of innocence, right? And strictly speaking, it doesn't matter whether race was involved in the shooting or not. Wilson could have been crazy racist and still justified, if Brown was attacking him. And Wilson could have been perfectly tolerant and still culpable, if Brown wasn't attacking him. Racism is not an element of the alleged crime.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I never mentioned the shooting so freely speculate on that as you like. Also I didn't say the part about tear gas, do not quote me on that.
Dozens of businesses looted, others razed to the ground, molotov cocktails, rocks, fights between protesters and with the cops, hospitalizations, and countless amounts of property damage and destroyed vehicles - yeah, benign.
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
The State Police officer who took over the police force has gone on record saying all those problems were done by a minority of agitators in the crowd. Many reports on the looters were that they may have actually largely been form nearby St. Louis, not Ferguson natives.
In any case, Brown's state of mind or his guilt in the robbery are completely irrelevant to the case at hand. Even if he attack Officer Wilson, it's irrelevant. Brown was shot while facing the Officer from 35 feet away. So if Brown did attack Wilson, what sequence of events had to play out for Brown to be shot in the front after getting so far away from the officer?
We don't know, and that's a rather large problem. The public information on this issue has been abysmal, and the police have attempted to obfuscate if further by release details on the robbery that Officer Wilson didn't about. The reason people are so upset is because this whole thing smacks of some sort of cover-up.
Now, to put it in perspective, the shooting of the armed suspect (with a knife) in St. Louis last week was a good shoot. The police didn't fire until the suspect was in range to actually hurt them, an ambulance was called and the suspect was immediately transported to a hospital (although he was dead) and the department immediately issued a statement and even released video of the incident. By comparison, an ambulance wasn't called for Brown until well after he was shot, he was shot almost as many times as the four officers shot the knife-wielding suspect in St. Louis, except Brown was shot by only one officer, and Ferguson Police had been inflaming the situation by either making ignorant statements or not releasing any real information until there had been more than enough time to work out stories. Even their release of the robbery video, paired with the shooting officer's name, was deliberately inflammatory.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
What do you mean by "true freedom"? Actual freedom as in I can be free to murder you if I want to?
As I said, what you write is absurd. True freedom as in the way you seem to be talking about it has never existed in any organized society.
You seem to be mixing together the shooting itself and the after-the-fact ineptitude by the police department. Now, the fact that the department as a whole has mishandled this so badly does not exactly give me confidence that the representative of their number named Darren Wilson is a paragon of competent professionalism. But that is of course wildly circumstantial. I think what you're trying to say is not that the St. Louis incident was a good shoot and the Ferguson incident was a bad shoot, but rather that the St. Louis incident was a transparently good shoot and the Ferguson incident is opaque.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Also in the area of police response. It has, again mostly be ex military, as well as ex police that, and this is just mentioning once aspect. The gear being worn by the police in a variety of photos is extremely poor in choice for actually handing rioters.
As others have said - the source of the violence doesn't matter. Its happening, there is a LOT of it, and the police have to respond with appropriate force. Would you rather they go into molotov cocktails in shirts and dress shoes?
I don't think anyone is claiming this - of course, actual evidence will be the determining factor once it is available. In the interim, I believe that it is correct to give the benefit of the doubt to the person that seems less likely to have done something wrong. However, if you believe that prior history of action of both individuals (brown's criminal past and the officer's clean record with regard to racial incidents) shouldn't tilt your judgment in either direction before evidence is presented, can we agree that race has absolutely no bearing on this event at the people protesting on racial grounds are completely in the wrong?
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
Also, the coroner (and the FBI) have ordered a toxicology report as well as an examination of his clothes. I'm just going to say, again, that we don't know enough, and that we should probably double check facts, and let THOSE guide us, instead of our emotions.
"normality is a paved road: it is comfortable to walk, but no flowers grow there."
-Vincent Van Gogh
things I hate:
1. lists.
b. inconsistencies.
V. incorrect math.
2. quotes in signatures
III: irony.
there are two kinds of people in the world: those who can make reasonable conclusions based on conjecture.
I think that's a fair way of putting it.
Uh, no, a response was obviously necessary. But you do know that tactical gear isn't fireproof, right? Body armor and camo doesn't protect you from fire and more than a shirt and dress shoes.
No, we can't. Ferguson is 2/3rds black, and their police force is 1/25th black. The police responded to this incident with a complete lack of transparency. I'm not saying Officer Wilson is racist or the shooting was racially motivated, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed. Especially when there is so much character assassination going around.
In cases like this it's all about the perception, and it's really not hard to see why the black population of Ferguson feels victimized.
Sorry, it was 35 feet away from the police car, to be specific. The coroner also ruled out a close range shot, due to the lack of gunpowder on the body. If the supposed sequence of events is true that Brown went for the gun, a shot was fire inside the cruiser, I still want to know how they got 35 feet away from the cruiser in a situation with Brown getting shot six times in the front from a distance greater than about 3-5 feet (which is where gunpowder residue is detectable).
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/us/missouri-ferguson-michael-brown-what-we-know/
Not to mention the fact that this is the incident 'report'. The whole sequence of events is still a mystery. That's a major problem.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I honestly want to know how they got so far from the cruiser, too. (if they even did. The key witness has already been discredited by the autopsy showing that none of the bullets came from the back.) A way I could see it is if Wilson pursued Brown (which he may have, since at that point Brown was a fleeing suspect.) Then, Brown turns and starts charging/surrendering, and the shots are fired.
Note, I could be completely wrong about this. I am trying to give as neutral a theory as I can.
"normality is a paved road: it is comfortable to walk, but no flowers grow there."
-Vincent Van Gogh
things I hate:
1. lists.
b. inconsistencies.
V. incorrect math.
2. quotes in signatures
III: irony.
there are two kinds of people in the world: those who can make reasonable conclusions based on conjecture.
No adult arrest record. He's 18. His juvenile record is currently sealed, but there is a lawsuit pending to get it. And considering that his friend had an outstanding warrant and admitted that they were stealing, AND tox came back positive for pot in his system, you seem a bit silly.
You -DO- know that the claims that he paid for it are speculation, right? The video is far from clear, and yet someone in the store called it in, and brown's friend confirmed it.
So, because Brown lived in a neighborhood full of black criminals, despite his "clean record", we can assume he was a cop hating thug as well, and is most assuredly at fault, right? Cool. If not, you're gonna have to accept that Wilson doesn't have anything racial on record.
It sure as hell protects better against bullets, which protesters have also used. What kind of response would you suggest to the unruly mobs in ferguson that adequately protects the officers? Hell, even with what they're doing there are injuries daily.
This is horse *****. Doesnt matter who feels victimized, and that absolutely has no bearing on the likelihood of Wilson killing in cold blood - if anything, it lends credence to the suggestion that brown attacked him. If prior racial tension is fair game, so is the prior history of both individuals. (I'd argue that it makes more sense to rely on the latter)
I'm not saying that there isn't a racism problem in ferguson, but to start by implying that wilson is most likely racist and then to ignore every issue with brown - now THATS character assassination (And, funnily enough, exactly what the media has been doing).
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
Honestly, it depends on your media. Conservative outlets are pushing the Brown as a 'thug' aspect, and it's gone viral on social media even though very little of it is true. Liberal outlets are going after Wilson somewhat, but are mostly focused on the ineptitude of the police force.
I should also note that the protests in Ferguson are NOT just about Brown. A community doesn't respond like that to a single incident, they respond because of a pattern that came to a head in the Brown shooting.
I also think you're all misunderstanding what I'm saying about the police reaction to the protests. Openness and transparency would have been the fastest way to stem the tide. Tempers get high on both sides during these events, and the Ferguson police handled the situation (from a public information and community outreach perspective) incredibly poorly and helped stoke the tensions rather than help resolve them. Getting replaced by the State Police was the best thing that could have happened.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
However, this idea that police are allowed to kill someone as long as they can invent a good story is outright bull*****. On top of that, you have a militarized police department preventing people from peaceful protest with violence. Then a few weeks later another guy is killed by police and it's caught on video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXF9ddW0lGA&bpctr=1408984879 Say what you want about it, but I don't understand why tasers weren't used.
This is another story of police killing someone. http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/what-i-did-after-police-killed-my-son-110038.html#.U_tf1KNpu2k
So this whole thing is really about the police in general, not that some white cop killed a black kid.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
I do not know about 'justify' but it provides a possible reason for why he might have attacked a police officer. At the heart of this is really who started the altercation. If Brown attacked the police officer then is quite possible that he tried to charge him afterwards and thus was shot in self defense. If Wilson started the altercation for no real reason then it becomes plausible that he killed Brown after Brown started to surrender.
It is clear that this case will end up being about the credibility of the witnesses. Some eyewitnesses seem to support the pro-Brown version of events and some the pro-Wilson version.
I.. dont really watch conservative media. But fair enough
And yeah, my bad - I thought that you meant all that stuff about the shooting itself, not the protests in their entirety. When I was discussing race/background as factors, I meant as they pertain to the presumption of guilt before actual evidence is presented. I absolutely agree the people who ARE protesting the strain/ect in the community have a valid point of view - I am just completely opposed to the sizable chuck that are out there with "justice for brown" posters.
EDIT: Jay one more thing - since their inital response wasnt transparent, do you think their actions AFTER the violence started were justified? I do think that the entire situation could have been handled better, but I don't think that doing anything is more appropriate than whipping out the heaviest weapons you can against bullets and bombs
When I say "the media", What I mean is the media* (*excluding extreme news sources such as fox and msnbc). Middle-of-the-road news organizations are absolutely siding with brown on this narrative. And I'm not giving justifications for killing - I am simply saying that, prior to the actual forensic evidence and all that, as we dole out guilt or innocence the way we ALWAYS do, we should at least be rational about it. We currently have two narratives - one where Brown was an innocent being picked on, and the other where he assaulted an officer. You, and many others, are quick to label Wilson in the wrong - why? Fact is, that someone with a criminal past is more likely to act criminally than someone who isn't. Someone WITHOUT a personal history of racism is less likely to be racist than someone who does. Yet, you take the broadest possible factor "he lives in an area with a lot of racists" and compare it to the narrowest factor "brown's parents called him a gentle giant!" - that is silly. Compare like to with. If wilson lives in an area with white racists, brown lives in an area with black criminals. If brown's personal history is how you defend him, the wilson's perfect record should be as well.
Keep in mind, all of this means nothing once we have the entire body of evidence - but until then, you, and all the "justice for brown" protestors need to stow your guns or find a better argument, because from the facts it really just looks like you're playing the race card.
Actually, that top line was poking a bit of fun at jay, but I'll run with it - I am acknowledging the potential racial tension that exists within ferguson - and in fact, there is probably a valid point there that needs to be addressed. However, there is currently 0 proof that ANY racism was involved in this indecent beyond the color of their skin, and the testimony of a small handful of witnesses. In fact, the police department has more witnesses verifying wilson's story. To take racial tensions and run with it to conclude "Wilson probably shot brown beacuse he was black." just doesn't work for me, and actually upsets me - What you're really saying is that Wilson is guilty because he is white, and nothing more.
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
Obviously, this doesn't mean that any form of protest or any message from protesters is good. Looting, vandalism, arson, etc. are obviously unjustified regardless of what the truth of the situation turns out to be. Demands that the officer be punished outside of due process are similarly unacceptable. But there will always be those who see unrest as an opportunity for criminality, and those who see protests as a platform for extremism.
The standard we should set for police is that an encounter with a civilian does not result in anyone getting killed (and that includes the officer). There will be instances where an officer's hand is forced, and they have no choice but to shoot to kill. Maybe it will turn out that this was one of those cases, but we have to send a message that the public's expectations are high, and deaths will not be met with complacency.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Now, I certainly grant that some people do mean "vigilante reprisal" or mean "railroaded show trial". Obviously, these messages are unacceptable and disturbing, but I don't think we can dismiss everyone who is demanding justice as bloodthirsty.