If we as a society feel that we are ready for women's breasts to be exposed in public then lets have that discussion. There should not be special rules just for breastfeeding. It is completely unnecessary.
Again, I'm starting to think that a) you have some completely different experience of public breastfeeding than I do, or b) you are utterly horrified by (for example) going to the beach.
a) maybe, I find it hard to imagine a store would throw a woman out for breastfeeding if she is actually covered up...
b) not at all... although some of what I have seen that qualifies as beach attire is quite frightening now
Also stop trying to use this debate as an excuse to throw out personal attacks. a 30 year old guy arguing that breast feeding may not be appropriate to see probably does not mean for himself... he is probably trying to consider what would be appropriate for children to see.
So if breastfeeding would be appropriate for daytime TV (what a 10 year old boy might watch) then that's perfectly fine with me. However if we as a society still think 10 year old's shouldnt see women's boobies then breastfeeding should be kept in a more private setting.
If we as a society feel that we are ready for women's breasts to be exposed in public then lets have that discussion. There should not be special rules just for breastfeeding. It is completely unnecessary.
Again, I'm starting to think that a) you have some completely different experience of public breastfeeding than I do, or b) you are utterly horrified by (for example) going to the beach.
a) maybe, I find it hard to imagine a store would throw a woman out for breastfeeding if she is actually covered up...
b) not at all... although some of what I have seen that qualifies as beach attire is quite frightening now
Also stop trying to use this debate as an excuse to throw out personal attacks. a 30 year old guy arguing that breast feeding may not be appropriate to see probably does not mean for himself... he is probably trying to consider what would be appropriate for children to see.
So if breastfeeding would be appropriate for daytime TV (what a 10 year old boy might watch) then that's perfectly fine with me. However if we as a society still think 10 year old's shouldnt see women's boobies then breastfeeding should be kept in a more private setting.
My apologies if you took that as a personal attack - my experience of public breastfeeding doesn't tally with what you described, though, so it seemed reasonable to conclude that either your experience or your sensitivities were different in some way.
I've seen my wife breastfeed in public. If you were watching very carefully, you might see a brief flash of breast and nipple (but probably wouldn't) before he latched on and his head blocked everything. This is why I found the discussion about flopping breasts out for all to see, and women being exposed in public, a weird one.
Again, from my experience your 10 year old is likely to find (far) more visible breast at the nearest beach. Or on a hot summer day. If exposure to sight-of-breast is what you're worried about, there are far more low-hanging fruit than breastfeeding.
(And on that tangent: it's all right for infants to see breasts; they're breastfeeding. It's all right for adults to see breasts; they're adults. It's all right for girls to see breasts; all they need to do is look down, once they're developing. That leaves boys between the time they stop breastfeeding and the age of 18. Not to mention that it's apparently only female breasts we need to protect people from the sight of.)
But I don't feel particularly intensely about 'women should be able to show their breasts'. I do feel strongly that they ought to be able to breastfeed in public if the need arises. If that has knock-on effects, then so be it.
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Just to elaborate a bit. Even if the beach would have equal exposure I dont see women walking around Target in a string bikini... There is a difference between the beach and a department store.
Personally I'd rather just do away with public nudity laws in general. But even then it should be up to private businesses to do what they want. If a fancy restaurant can make we wear a tie to eat there they should be able to ask women to not breastfeed at the table. If that's an issue for someone they can choose not to eat there.
You guys have to keep in mind the area you live in in the debates. North America is the most anti breastfeeding in public place in the world. Going by that, it's quite obvious why some here are totally for it, and why others thing it's a terrible thing.
The forum is full of americans so I imagine most people are against it here.
You guys have to keep in mind the area you live in in the debates. North America is the most anti breastfeeding in public place in the world. Going by that, it's quite obvious why some here are totally for it, and why others thing it's a terrible thing.
The forum is full of americans so I imagine most people are against it here.
I am not sure where you get this from. I personally don't care if a women breastfeeds in public however she shouldn't just hang her breast out and plug a baby in.
There are some people that find it uncomfortable. plus she should have a bit more respect for herself and others.
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Yeah, umm...I'm American, and basically everybody I know is pro-breastfeeding-in-public. We recently had a breastfeed-in where hundreds of mothers sat on the steps in front of the State Capitol building and breastfed their babies for an entire afternoon. It's the politicians who have to kiss scared-old-white-guy ass that are raising the scare; almost every normal sane adult-but-not-yet-codger person in the country understands that breastfeeding is a perfectly safe public activity.
Seriously, the argument against breastfeeding seems to boil down to "but if I see a boob, I have to think about sex, and that makes me uncomfortable." Well, I know I'm a little weird, but I think about sex basically every time I see a woman in jeans from behind, so I know that thinking about it doesn't actually hurt anyone.
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"I wasn't sleeping. I'm a beta-tester for Google Eyelids...I was just taking the opportunity to update my Facebook page." -- Morgan Freeman, accused of napping during a TV interview.
Seriously, the argument against breastfeeding seems to boil down to "but if I see a boob, I have to think about sex, and that makes me uncomfortable." Well, I know I'm a little weird, but I think about sex basically every time I see a woman in jeans from behind, so I know that thinking about it doesn't actually hurt anyone.
Wrong... the argument comes down to "I dont want my KIDS to see boob in public places where they normally wouldnt". I dont think any adult male is thinking "eww boobies keep them away from my poor innocent eyes!".
Now I am not a parent so I dont know how I would feel about it but I can understand the position. It's getting harder and harder for parents to keep sex out of their young children's lives. I can easily see why some parents would be against having their 10 year old son witness breast feeding in the middle of Target.
Well, I am a parent, and a Mormon. Almost everyone I hang out with on a daily basis is a parent, and is (given that I live in one of the most liberal places in America) relatively conservative. And I have to tell you, it IS that it makes the person in question think about sex. And then thinking about sex makes them worry that seeing the same sight will make their kids think about sex. But kids don't think about sex when they see boobs. Or rather, if they're old enough to think about sex in the first place, they don't have to see a naked sideboob to think about sex.
Maybe back in the day before titties were post-scarcity, that wouldn't have been the case, but seriously. I was in college in 1997 and I already had access to more free breasts online than I could ever hope to witness in my lifetime. You're not doing your kids any favors by keeping them away from the one situation in which a nipple is being used for God's intended purpose.
It really is about the person making the judgment call, no matter how much they want it to be about their children. Children don't know it's 'wrong' unless you tell them.
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"I wasn't sleeping. I'm a beta-tester for Google Eyelids...I was just taking the opportunity to update my Facebook page." -- Morgan Freeman, accused of napping during a TV interview.
I've always wanted to go up to some woman who says "breasts aren't sexual, so women should be allowed to go topless," poke her boobs, and see if she accuses me of sexual assault.
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Well, I am a parent, and a Mormon. Almost everyone I hang out with on a daily basis is a parent, and is (given that I live in one of the most liberal places in America) relatively conservative. And I have to tell you, it IS that it makes the person in question think about sex. And then thinking about sex makes them worry that seeing the same sight will make their kids think about sex. But kids don't think about sex when they see boobs. Or rather, if they're old enough to think about sex in the first place, they don't have to see a naked sideboob to think about sex.
Maybe back in the day before titties were post-scarcity, that wouldn't have been the case, but seriously. I was in college in 1997 and I already had access to more free breasts online than I could ever hope to witness in my lifetime. You're not doing your kids any favors by keeping them away from the one situation in which a nipple is being used for God's intended purpose.
It really is about the person making the judgment call, no matter how much they want it to be about their children. Children don't know it's 'wrong' unless you tell them.
And you have every right to show as many titties to your children as you want... some parents may not want their children to see them, allowing them to be displayed in public would prevent those parents from raising their children in that way.
You say that at worst a nipple may slip out for a moment.... how big of a deal was it when Janet Jackson's nipple slipped out for just a moment at the Super Bowl?
You say that at worst a nipple may slip out for a moment.... how big of a deal was it when Janet Jackson's nipple slipped out for just a moment at the Super Bowl?
How big of a deal was it, really? Did any child suffer harm from that?
You say that at worst a nipple may slip out for a moment.... how big of a deal was it when Janet Jackson's nipple slipped out for just a moment at the Super Bowl?
How big of a deal was it, really? Did any child suffer harm from that?
I have no idea. I am not a parent... but again if it isnt a big deal then TV stations also should not get fined for displaying them, and women should be able to walk down the street topless.
Until then I see no reason to have special rules to allow it for the purposes of breastfeeding.
I've always wanted to go up to some woman who says "breasts aren't sexual, so women should be allowed to go topless," poke her boobs, and see if she accuses me of sexual assault.
Saying breasts aren't sexual isn't giving up her bodily autonomy. You'd still be touching her without her consent, in an effort to prove that breasts are sexual, which as far as I'm concerned is sexual harassment. (My wife's reaction is less verbose: "What a creep.")
Yes...just don't get angry when I'm mirin dem teddies.
You won't be. Have you not read the thread? Breastfeeding in public isn't some kind of milk-spraying breast-waving Bacchanalian orgy. You'd have to try really hard to get a glimpse of breast, at which point it's hardly an indecent disrespectful she-should-cover-up Saudi-Arabia-is-totally-worse-than-us-but-gosh-our-rhetoric-sounds-similar-to-theirs display.
Until then I see no reason to have special rules to allow it for the purposes of breastfeeding.
a) Unless American breastfeeding is vastly different to New Zealand breastfeeding, a glimpse of nipple is, as you've pointed out, all you'd see at most.
b) Context is important. Even granting that a glimpse of nipple is a horrifying traumatic experience (which I don't actually think it is), Janet Jackson's incident happened under the concentrated attention of an audience of millions. Public breastfeeding isn't like that.
c) The US already allows it. Each state, at the very least, has laws that say public breastfeeding doesn't count as indecent exposure, and 45 states specifically allow women to breastfeed in any public location.
d) The reason to specifically allow it is that anything but breastmilk is detrimental to the baby. Formula just doesn't compare. Increasing and/or facilitating breastfeeding is a worthy goal.
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I am willing to bet my collection that Frozen and Solid are not on the same card. For example, Frozen Tomb and Solid Wall.
If Frozen Solid is not reprinted, you are aware that I'm quoting you in my sig for eternity?
You guys have to keep in mind the area you live in in the debates. North America is the most anti breastfeeding in public place in the world. Going by that, it's quite obvious why some here are totally for it, and why others thing it's a terrible thing.
The forum is full of americans so I imagine most people are against it here.
I don't see anyone here saying breastfeeding is a terrible thing. It's doing it a way thats frankly inconsiderate of others that is bothersome.
My son was bottle fed, but I've known (and had dinner with) plenty of women who were breastfeeding their babies. They either pumped and brought a bottle to feed the baby, wore a loose top so the baby could get access without them having to pull their breast out, or brought a small hand towel/piece of fabric to drape over their shoulder to cover up.
Breastfeeding does not require full frontal nudity. I don't know anyone who has a problem with breastfeeding in public, I know plenty of people that have a problem with a woman insisting on making a public spectacle of themselves as some sort of statement for/against Lord knows what.
Our prudishness around breasts in general is ridiculous, but breastfeeding has strong, demonstrated benefits to the child, and frankly we should never be punishing for breastfeeding, we should not be criticizing it, we should not be shaming women for breastfeeding or putting them out of sight (implying that it's unsightly or inappropriate)...
I realize that it makes people uncomfortable, but really, it's time to get over it. It should be acceptable, period, end of story.
Decreasing female objectification based on the sexualization of the breast into accepting it as a normal part of human anatomy similar to the male breast is fine.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Decreasing female objectification based on the sexualization of the breast into accepting it as a normal part of human anatomy similar to the male breast is fine.
Says a man....
Our prudishness around breasts in general is ridiculous
Says a man....
we should not be shaming women for breastfeeding or putting them out of sight (implying that it's unsightly or inappropriate)...
I realize that it makes people uncomfortable, but really, it's time to get over it. It should be acceptable, period, end of story.
No one is doing that. You can easily breastfeed without full frontal nudity.
When I'm in a public place and need to make an "adjustment", I don't stand up, drop my pants and boxers, move what I need to move, and then put my clothes back on. I do it discreetly. When I go to the bathroom in a public restroom I don't whip it out, stand 5 feet away from the urinal, and fire away for anyone in the restroom to see.
Like I said before. I've seen/had dinner with many women who breast feed in public perfectly fine without making a spectacle of themselves. They sell clothing designed for that purpose. And breast pumps exist and work just fine.
As for a crusade for nudity, tilt at all the windmills you want, but objecting to a common social norm and expecting everyone else to fall in line behind you is unrealistic. Breastfeeding can easily be accomplished with retaining normal standards of decency in public.
What does "full frontal nudity" mean to you, Valarin? You're blowing all of this wildly out of proportion.
By the way, you don't have to stand 5 feet away from the urinal for me to see your *****. You should probably consider buying clothes that can accommodate this. Or, you know, I could just do my best to avoid staring when someone is discreetly exposing themselves to the public. That could work too.
A. History of mixed racial marriages to present day, as well as racial relations in general have shifted. Gender relations have also severely changed.
B. Product adoption cycle
C. Public standards shifting
D. The sexualization of the female breast is typically a western standard.
E. What has been considered "nudity" has shifted, look at the history of the bathing suit from the early 20th century to today.
F. People will act on their own ideals of freedom whenever given an opportunity, giving people an opportunity to develop social practices that do not punish people for forgetting a blanket or something is fine.
Don't think I've considered historical analysis as well as socio-cultural norms over time shifting along with differentiated socio-cultural norms about nudity? There are places such as the European sense on nudity and aging beauty that are actually pretty good. Women in France culturally aren't obsessed with looking young as one example, and looking at how that developed would help women who are dealing with issues of aging. There are nude beaches in Europe. Ever been there? Fastest way to tell that a woman is American on a European nude beach is see them with a top on. That's cultural acclimation, and a choice for the European and the American woman.
Dsexualizing and demystifying the breast in American culture would actually allow for women to be more similar to men and more equal in part. The human body exists, we've all got one. One of the major problems with American art courses in public schools is that they do not allow for nude art, which is one of the best ways to learn the classical art style as well as master anatomy. The culture holds itself back from it's classical roots from it's Victorian sensibilities about the human body. This goes to several different layers in acceptance of the human body, rather than the peak ideal for the land of the 25 year old.
"Nudist" and a man? Not so much, social conservative and preserving western traditions and increasing neo-liberal choice are my description. Let the market decide how to deal with women practicing feeding. There are certainly enough products and services for current standards, but there's always going back to different ways of dealing with problems and practices that invent new solutions towards nudity. Some rebel, others adapt, some compromise, some don't. Let the woman decide how she wants to feed her child. What makes American society so special?
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
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a) maybe, I find it hard to imagine a store would throw a woman out for breastfeeding if she is actually covered up...
b) not at all... although some of what I have seen that qualifies as beach attire is quite frightening now
Also stop trying to use this debate as an excuse to throw out personal attacks. a 30 year old guy arguing that breast feeding may not be appropriate to see probably does not mean for himself... he is probably trying to consider what would be appropriate for children to see.
So if breastfeeding would be appropriate for daytime TV (what a 10 year old boy might watch) then that's perfectly fine with me. However if we as a society still think 10 year old's shouldnt see women's boobies then breastfeeding should be kept in a more private setting.
My apologies if you took that as a personal attack - my experience of public breastfeeding doesn't tally with what you described, though, so it seemed reasonable to conclude that either your experience or your sensitivities were different in some way.
I've seen my wife breastfeed in public. If you were watching very carefully, you might see a brief flash of breast and nipple (but probably wouldn't) before he latched on and his head blocked everything. This is why I found the discussion about flopping breasts out for all to see, and women being exposed in public, a weird one.
Again, from my experience your 10 year old is likely to find (far) more visible breast at the nearest beach. Or on a hot summer day. If exposure to sight-of-breast is what you're worried about, there are far more low-hanging fruit than breastfeeding.
(And on that tangent: it's all right for infants to see breasts; they're breastfeeding. It's all right for adults to see breasts; they're adults. It's all right for girls to see breasts; all they need to do is look down, once they're developing. That leaves boys between the time they stop breastfeeding and the age of 18. Not to mention that it's apparently only female breasts we need to protect people from the sight of.)
But I don't feel particularly intensely about 'women should be able to show their breasts'. I do feel strongly that they ought to be able to breastfeed in public if the need arises. If that has knock-on effects, then so be it.
Personally I'd rather just do away with public nudity laws in general. But even then it should be up to private businesses to do what they want. If a fancy restaurant can make we wear a tie to eat there they should be able to ask women to not breastfeed at the table. If that's an issue for someone they can choose not to eat there.
The forum is full of americans so I imagine most people are against it here.
Not, say, Saudi Arabia?
I am not sure where you get this from. I personally don't care if a women breastfeeds in public however she shouldn't just hang her breast out and plug a baby in.
There are some people that find it uncomfortable. plus she should have a bit more respect for herself and others.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Seriously, the argument against breastfeeding seems to boil down to "but if I see a boob, I have to think about sex, and that makes me uncomfortable." Well, I know I'm a little weird, but I think about sex basically every time I see a woman in jeans from behind, so I know that thinking about it doesn't actually hurt anyone.
Wit and wisdom from my four-year-old son. Recommended for anyone who enjoys a good belly laugh.
Wrong... the argument comes down to "I dont want my KIDS to see boob in public places where they normally wouldnt". I dont think any adult male is thinking "eww boobies keep them away from my poor innocent eyes!".
Now I am not a parent so I dont know how I would feel about it but I can understand the position. It's getting harder and harder for parents to keep sex out of their young children's lives. I can easily see why some parents would be against having their 10 year old son witness breast feeding in the middle of Target.
Maybe back in the day before titties were post-scarcity, that wouldn't have been the case, but seriously. I was in college in 1997 and I already had access to more free breasts online than I could ever hope to witness in my lifetime. You're not doing your kids any favors by keeping them away from the one situation in which a nipple is being used for God's intended purpose.
It really is about the person making the judgment call, no matter how much they want it to be about their children. Children don't know it's 'wrong' unless you tell them.
Wit and wisdom from my four-year-old son. Recommended for anyone who enjoys a good belly laugh.
Modern: U M'Olk; B Goodstuff
And you have every right to show as many titties to your children as you want... some parents may not want their children to see them, allowing them to be displayed in public would prevent those parents from raising their children in that way.
You say that at worst a nipple may slip out for a moment.... how big of a deal was it when Janet Jackson's nipple slipped out for just a moment at the Super Bowl?
How big of a deal was it, really? Did any child suffer harm from that?
I have no idea. I am not a parent... but again if it isnt a big deal then TV stations also should not get fined for displaying them, and women should be able to walk down the street topless.
Until then I see no reason to have special rules to allow it for the purposes of breastfeeding.
Can you conceive of any plausible scenario in which a child would have suffered harm from that?
Saying breasts aren't sexual isn't giving up her bodily autonomy. You'd still be touching her without her consent, in an effort to prove that breasts are sexual, which as far as I'm concerned is sexual harassment. (My wife's reaction is less verbose: "What a creep.")
You won't be. Have you not read the thread? Breastfeeding in public isn't some kind of milk-spraying breast-waving Bacchanalian orgy. You'd have to try really hard to get a glimpse of breast, at which point it's hardly an indecent disrespectful she-should-cover-up Saudi-Arabia-is-totally-worse-than-us-but-gosh-our-rhetoric-sounds-similar-to-theirs display.
a) Unless American breastfeeding is vastly different to New Zealand breastfeeding, a glimpse of nipple is, as you've pointed out, all you'd see at most.
b) Context is important. Even granting that a glimpse of nipple is a horrifying traumatic experience (which I don't actually think it is), Janet Jackson's incident happened under the concentrated attention of an audience of millions. Public breastfeeding isn't like that.
c) The US already allows it. Each state, at the very least, has laws that say public breastfeeding doesn't count as indecent exposure, and 45 states specifically allow women to breastfeed in any public location.
d) The reason to specifically allow it is that anything but breastmilk is detrimental to the baby. Formula just doesn't compare. Increasing and/or facilitating breastfeeding is a worthy goal.
I don't see anyone here saying breastfeeding is a terrible thing. It's doing it a way thats frankly inconsiderate of others that is bothersome.
My son was bottle fed, but I've known (and had dinner with) plenty of women who were breastfeeding their babies. They either pumped and brought a bottle to feed the baby, wore a loose top so the baby could get access without them having to pull their breast out, or brought a small hand towel/piece of fabric to drape over their shoulder to cover up.
Breastfeeding does not require full frontal nudity. I don't know anyone who has a problem with breastfeeding in public, I know plenty of people that have a problem with a woman insisting on making a public spectacle of themselves as some sort of statement for/against Lord knows what.
Our prudishness around breasts in general is ridiculous, but breastfeeding has strong, demonstrated benefits to the child, and frankly we should never be punishing for breastfeeding, we should not be criticizing it, we should not be shaming women for breastfeeding or putting them out of sight (implying that it's unsightly or inappropriate)...
I realize that it makes people uncomfortable, but really, it's time to get over it. It should be acceptable, period, end of story.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Says a man....
Says a man....
No one is doing that. You can easily breastfeed without full frontal nudity.
When I'm in a public place and need to make an "adjustment", I don't stand up, drop my pants and boxers, move what I need to move, and then put my clothes back on. I do it discreetly. When I go to the bathroom in a public restroom I don't whip it out, stand 5 feet away from the urinal, and fire away for anyone in the restroom to see.
Like I said before. I've seen/had dinner with many women who breast feed in public perfectly fine without making a spectacle of themselves. They sell clothing designed for that purpose. And breast pumps exist and work just fine.
As for a crusade for nudity, tilt at all the windmills you want, but objecting to a common social norm and expecting everyone else to fall in line behind you is unrealistic. Breastfeeding can easily be accomplished with retaining normal standards of decency in public.
By the way, you don't have to stand 5 feet away from the urinal for me to see your *****. You should probably consider buying clothes that can accommodate this. Or, you know, I could just do my best to avoid staring when someone is discreetly exposing themselves to the public. That could work too.
A. History of mixed racial marriages to present day, as well as racial relations in general have shifted. Gender relations have also severely changed.
B. Product adoption cycle
C. Public standards shifting
D. The sexualization of the female breast is typically a western standard.
E. What has been considered "nudity" has shifted, look at the history of the bathing suit from the early 20th century to today.
F. People will act on their own ideals of freedom whenever given an opportunity, giving people an opportunity to develop social practices that do not punish people for forgetting a blanket or something is fine.
Don't think I've considered historical analysis as well as socio-cultural norms over time shifting along with differentiated socio-cultural norms about nudity? There are places such as the European sense on nudity and aging beauty that are actually pretty good. Women in France culturally aren't obsessed with looking young as one example, and looking at how that developed would help women who are dealing with issues of aging. There are nude beaches in Europe. Ever been there? Fastest way to tell that a woman is American on a European nude beach is see them with a top on. That's cultural acclimation, and a choice for the European and the American woman.
Dsexualizing and demystifying the breast in American culture would actually allow for women to be more similar to men and more equal in part. The human body exists, we've all got one. One of the major problems with American art courses in public schools is that they do not allow for nude art, which is one of the best ways to learn the classical art style as well as master anatomy. The culture holds itself back from it's classical roots from it's Victorian sensibilities about the human body. This goes to several different layers in acceptance of the human body, rather than the peak ideal for the land of the 25 year old.
"Nudist" and a man? Not so much, social conservative and preserving western traditions and increasing neo-liberal choice are my description. Let the market decide how to deal with women practicing feeding. There are certainly enough products and services for current standards, but there's always going back to different ways of dealing with problems and practices that invent new solutions towards nudity. Some rebel, others adapt, some compromise, some don't. Let the woman decide how she wants to feed her child. What makes American society so special?
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.