Ugh, not a Ben Stiller fan.
[Warning: Link NSFW, although frankly tame by TBPITU standards.]
I think Jim Carrey has finally (finally!) found his feet as a 'serious' actor; the fact that he was so good at comedy was kind of a big... well, kind of a big joke. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is my prime example.
I still need to watch that movie ... dang. Also, Maddox is a genius. I own the Alphabet of Manliness but missed him when he came through my college town [back when I'd moved away for college] because I couldn't get there. ... So no signature. BUT HE IS AWESOME.
I still think Zoolander was amazing. I don't even care. It's totally true, Ben Stiller makes way too many movies.
Yes, but that doesn't mean you should feel bad about providing a link to on-topic websites.
I didn't even read it fully, though! Egh.
Um, okay then.
Shrug. What can I say? Heh.
But, hrm.
...
You know, maybe you're right. The Ideal of Empathy isn't something that should be touted or carried with pridefulness. To wax poetic, Love is not a victory march, and that is important to remember...
...but part of me rages at the idea, because that makes empathy seem worthless.
How? In a real sense, empathy IS worthless. If you only look at "getting the best thing" and 'winning' life from a monetary and power standpoint, real empathy is completely useless. That's not what it's for, though: it's so people can feel better, so you can feel better, and so the human race can -be- better. It doesn't help for any monetary and political gain.
Ugh, isn't that always the way? Sheeple always deride the assertions that they're doing something wrong, and it's so damn hard to make misanthropes who are 'happy' see the horrors surrounding them. I'm sorry you're facing flak for knowing what you're talking about.
Oh well. It happens. Seems to be just that I'm not terribly good at getting my point across, either, but whatever.
No, you read too far into the statement, and this was my fault for assuming you had the same historical bias as I do. 'Circling the wagons' was a last-ditch effort at protection, one which usually didn't work too well, mostly because all of the supplies (most especially the gunpowder) are now in the walls. Frankly, if you were in that type of situation, the best way to survive the attack was to, well, run like hell while the attacking force concentrated on the group that was stuffed neatly in the center...
...which should make my analogy much clearer. If you're attaching yourself to a group, you're taking on their 'cons' just as much as you're benefitting from their 'pros'.
Well, it's still a last-ditch attempt to make things work.
Thing is, I don't know that society is out to get you. It seems a bit paranoid to me. Sure, there are people committing hate crimes, but there are also cops, who don't need quantifiers to 'crime' in order to want to stop it.
See, I'm finding the whole thing kind of, well kind of insular. It's simple confirmation bias: a person who has faced bad things will think that bad things happen, just because they are scared of going out and finding the good things, the safe places.
Well, I'd argue that it's at the very least understandable paranoia in this case, though.
And now, a rant:
As a hobby shop owner, I really do try to get along with the LARPers, I really do, and most of them are fine and upstanding people... but there's always that one person in the bunch who takes it far too seriously, starts pretending that goblins are attacking the shop or whatever.. so I find myself trepidatious around them. I know that's a sad thing, but really, I mean, come on, goblins aren't attacking my store.*
So what's IRC?
*-Funny off-topic story. I had one guy forcefully prevent me from saying the words "I wish the goblins would come and take you away."
Ah, Labrynth shenanigans, could I age myself more effectively?
Blatch is right: IRC's internet relay chat, basically a chat client that only cool kids use and/or know about. And by cool kids I mean 'random people'. It's good, though. Archaic but nice in its simplicity. Feels kind of like a whispernet.
Thank you for your input, although I only used 'hold the door open for them' as a trope.. feel free to apply something more appropriate if you wish.
Well, in general, too. I do things for women, but not specific things that I only do for women? The death of chivalry and all that.
I suppose so, but if everyone knows about it, and its obvious, why the hate on against the one jackass who feels the perverse need to say something?
... Because they're a jackass? You're making it too easy here, come on.
Nicely done.
Thank you. [/bow.] I have more.
Wow, really? Do they tie you to a chair and put eye drops in your eyes while playing Ludwig Van in the background too?
You mean, have they watched good movies? Of course not.
Then will you forgive me when I don't know which lines are to be crossed and which aren't?
I think Ms. Gaga would be down for that. Heck, I'd watch it too.
BTW, don't be too surprised when you see me sigg'ing that.
Think of the YYY's video for "Heads will Roll".
Well, no, of course not. But pointing out where I might find such a plan might not be too bad, even if it's some kind of internal switch I haven't activated yet.
Fact is, if people aren't given something to do, they wander off because they're bored. Is trans really something that should be boring people?
In a perfect world, it should be able to bore people. A THOUSAND TIMES YES. When I thought of your question, I thought "Well, the Trail of Tears was really interesting. Maybe we should've kept that up. Doesn't that sound fun?"
The end goal of equality is when everybody can respect other peoples' differences without getting aggravated by them.
... And I had to add 'goal' to that last sentence. This is probably why I sometimes don't express myself so clearly. Oh well.
Private Mod Note
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my mouth is full of winsome lies -
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
I still need to watch that movie ... dang. Also, Maddox is a genius. I own the Alphabet of Manliness but missed him when he came through my college town [back when I'd moved away for college] because I couldn't get there. ... So no signature. BUT HE IS AWESOME.
I still think Zoolander was amazing. I don't even care. It's totally true, Ben Stiller makes way too many movies.
I do miss Maddox. The early days of the internet, when content mattered, ah, the memories. Him and Homestarrunner.com were pretty much the whole reason to have a connection back in the day.
I didn't even read it fully, though! Egh.
Meh. I haven't read the entirety of this website either but it's awesome too.
Honestly, does anyone ever actually read an entire website?
How? In a real sense, empathy IS worthless. If you only look at "getting the best thing" and 'winning' life from a monetary and power standpoint, real empathy is completely useless. That's not what it's for, though: it's so people can feel better, so you can feel better, and so the human race can -be- better. It doesn't help for any monetary and political gain.
I think the fact that it doesn't help you directly gain more material power makes it more important, not less... which, come to think of it, is probably why I caved so easily to your point: if the inherently internal aspect of empathy is touted out as a badge of honor, it does become worthless.
Oh well. It happens. Seems to be just that I'm not terribly good at getting my point across, either, but whatever.
Regardless, keep fighting the good fight.
Well, it's still a last-ditch attempt to make things work.
That's a very us-vs.-them attitude, though, which I find confusing as one of the 'them.' I mean, how many words have been spilled on this thread about the differences between gender and sex, not to mention gender, sex, and sexual preference? I guess I just don't see what you're trying to 'make work.'
Well, I'd argue that it's at the very least understandable paranoia in this case, though.
Sure, and I agree. But if I've had any stake in this thread it's to prove that not all of us normies are okay with other people being paranoid or, worse still, scared of me. The idea that there are people out there who distrust me just because I'm a straight white guy is simply horrifying, not to mention befuddling; about the worst you have to fear from a guy like me is that I might beat you at Super Mario Bros.
Blatch is right: IRC's internet relay chat, basically a chat client that only cool kids use and/or know about. And by cool kids I mean 'random people'. It's good, though. Archaic but nice in its simplicity. Feels kind of like a whispernet.
Thank you, and to bLatch too since I forgot to thank him then.
What's a whispernet?.. sorry I'm not up on the lingo, back in those days I was too busy watching Strong Bad.
Where would the goblins take them away, by the way? To Isengard?
Sigh. No, no, they'd take them to the castle of the Goblin King (at the heart of the Maze), played by David Bowie, who does the most hypnotising things with his balls while wearing rediculous spandex costumes. No, I'm not making that up, it's rated G by the way.
I suddenly have the strongest urge to yell at young people to get off mah lawn.
*waves cane*
Well, in general, too. I do things for women, but not specific things that I only do for women? The death of chivalry and all that.
True, true. It was unfair of me to ponder the idea, I see that now.
... Because they're a jackass? You're making it too easy here, come on.
Touche. Still, if someone's gonna say it, it might as well be the jackass, right?
Ooh, implied causation.
Thank you. [/bow.] I have more.
I look forward to it. I'll try to feed you some lines so you can use the whole repertoire.
You mean, have they watched good movies? Of course not.
Ah. You have weird friends.
Think of the YYY's video for "Heads will Roll".
Hmmm. I dunno, I think Teia's "Kill Bill" idea was better.
In a perfect world, it should be able to bore people. A THOUSAND TIMES YES. When I thought of your question, I thought "Well, the Trail of Tears was really interesting. Maybe we should've kept that up. Doesn't that sound fun?"
Good point. No, wait, great point.
The end goal of equality is when everybody can respect other peoples' differences without getting aggravated by them.
And I continue to agree with this, but I do have to wonder if, like empathy, anger does have a place in a perfect world.
... And I had to add 'goal' to that last sentence. This is probably why I sometimes don't express myself so clearly. Oh well.
At first I didn't get it. Then I figured it out. Then I roflcoptor'd.
It's not like I'm opposed to general conversation, but it does seem to be overwhelming the thread here with lengthy off-topic posts. Might I suggest you continue via PM or some other method?
Private Mod Note
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Oh, right, I forgot you don't live in America. Yeah, we're... we're screwed up.
Yes, you are. What luck then that our government basically worships America and is willing to do whatever fanboyish thing it feels will ingratiate themselves with you.
I'll stop getting political now.
So what exactly is the difference between this and an ad campaign?
They're both superficially similar in the sense that they're both raising awareness by spreading a message as wide as you can, but past that one's just... advertisement strewn about, whereas the other is a rallying point for social activism. I dunno about you, but the visual impact of a savage beating does more for me than what you'd get when you see "don't hate trans people kthx" while you're waiting for the commercials to finish so you can get back to laughing at Quagmire's dad.
Really? So you think it's shows a healthy state of mental health for me, a cis male, to go to a hospital to get a new pair of breasts?
Do I personally think that? Sure. It's your body. If you want them, you should be able to get them the same way anyone else can get them.
Any other reasons that, you know, wouldn't make me feel like a douchebag for arguing against them?
Given that you're basically arguing "lie to the doctor," I don't think there's anything defensible about your position anyway. Lying to medical professionals may sometimes be required (such as playing along with gatekeeping psychs who operate on 1980s stereotypes), but when it comes to being quite literally put under the scalpel... honesty, as they say, is the best policy.
Yes. Those. are. synonymous. Please don't hit me!
Do you count me putting you on the receiving end of an infinite combo as "hitting you"? Because if not, then I won't hit you. If so, I'm totally gonna hit you.
Makes sense. Of course, one could argue that everyone deserves a modicum of respect, but I know better than that.
I'd make a snarky comment about cissexists and transphobes not deserving respect, but I think that'd just come across as me whining more than anything else. But to get a little more on topic, I think one could understand just why I'd be amenable to agreement to disagree with someone whose experiences, while valid, are different than mine, as compared to someone with no experience who proceeds to tell me that my experience doesn't count (my favourite is the "I'm a formal academic and your experiences aren't a credible source of anything" argument). And I also think it'd be somewhat understandable if I met that kind of blatant disrespect with less respect than the person probably wants from me.
Really, it comes down to a "respect is earned, not given out freely" type of dealie. Someone comes in showing no respect and starts demanding it, I'm not even going to try to humour them.
but more to the point, doesn't the trans* community have enough confused members itself without thinking that somehow their sexuality is playing a part?
In a word: No.
In more words than one: One of the first things such confused people learn when entering the trans* community is that gender identity and sexual orientation are completely independent of each other. Many words have been written and spoken on this subject. Granted, you'll be seeing those "am I really just a confused gay man?" threads in trans forums (usually but not always owing to the trans woman in question being on the butch end of things rather than anything else) for as long as society is utterly ****ty towards trans women, but on the whole the community's got a solid grasp of things as far as that goes.
I actually preferred Dogs to PF
Pulp Fiction had Uma Thurman and Bruce Willis. Your opinion is invalid~
What's a pageclaim?
When you get the first post on a new page, is basically it. Which, given my superior posts-per-page settings, I accomplished this page (which is page 25 for me, incidentally—I shudder to think how many pages this thread has on inferior settings).
Also not directed at me, but I like to think what I'd have to say to it is relevant regardless:
That's a very us-vs.-them attitude, though, which I find confusing as one of the 'them.'
One of the things you'll often find regarding the queer community taking an "us vs them" attitude is that it isn't this way because we're isolationists of some sort. Quite the opposite: Most of us would be perfectly content living "normal" lives. But given the complex and painful social attitudes towards queer people, this "us vs them" attitude is actually something we're forced into, even to the point where each subdivision of the queer community (basically each letter in LGBT) feels some minor kind of "us vs them" towards other subdivisions of the queer community, such as how you'll find gay and lesbian people who throw bisexual/pansexual people in with "them" because we have the "choice" to live heteronormative lives and blah blah. Hurt a group of people enough and they'll start to huddle together and lash out at everyone not in their group, even if it's not particularly useful or even rational to do so.
But if I've had any stake in this thread it's to prove that not all of us normies are okay with other people being paranoid or, worse still, scared of me.
To be fair, it's more a fear of what a member of the privileged classes represents. Even though a straight cis white man might not do anything outright oppressive, they can still choose to, at any time. Kind of a "scorpion and the frog" thing (or "and the fox" if you only know this through Star Trek), where you're still likely to get stung even if the other doesn't plan to do so. Except that in this case, in addition to malicious, premeditated harm, they can also cause harm through ignorant attempts to "support" you or else through simple ignorance.
Alternatively, here's a little anecdote as related by a trans woman I know: The perennial dead horse trope of washrooms. There are cis women out there who, to put it simply, don't want trans women in public washrooms with them, citing irrational fears that they may be assaulted or that you might find men dressing as women and claiming to be trans for voyeuristic purposes (such cis women can't ever find examples of such things ever happening, but they cling to the fear anyway). Now, this trans woman (for the sake of narration I'll call her Dudette) feels quite the reverse—she's the one scared of all the cis women in there. All it takes is a single cis woman to raise a stink, and suddenly Dudette's landed in hot ****. Every cis woman in there has the potential to do this. Dudette can't simply take it on good faith that someone won't see her as a man and do the whole "someone dropped a spoon" ninja flipout on her. An individual cis woman might not, but there exist those who would, and so each cis woman represents the potential for Dudete to be branded a sexual predator solely because she couldn't hold it any longer.
If you had to live with that kind of fear attached to using a public washroom, you'd be a little wary of cis people too.
about the worst you have to fear from a guy like me is that I might beat you at Super Mario Bros.
And yet someone who looks and generally acts very much like you yourself do could, instead, pose a very real danger of assault or even murder to a trans woman (where even if they're convicted, the sentence will almost certainly be very lenient, and the victim stands a depressingly real chance of being memorialized as a "man"), and there's no external way to distinguish beforehand between the two groups.
They're both superficially similar in the sense that they're both raising awareness by spreading a message as wide as you can, but past that one's just... advertisement strewn about, whereas the other is a rallying point for social activism. I dunno about you, but the visual impact of a savage beating does more for me than what you'd get when you see "don't hate trans people kthx" while you're waiting for the commercials to finish so you can get back to laughing at Quagmire's dad.
So what's wrong with a commercial of a savage beating?
Do I personally think that? Sure. It's your body. If you want them, you should be able to get them the same way anyone else can get them.
Nice dodge, but it didn't answer the question so I'll rephrase: does a cis male getting a breast enhancement specifically to have more feminine breasts indicate a healthy state of being? Because you're saying that a trans* female not getting them will cause an unhealthy state.
Given that you're basically arguing "lie to the doctor," I don't think there's anything defensible about your position anyway. Lying to medical professionals may sometimes be required (such as playing along with gatekeeping psychs who operate on 1980s stereotypes), but when it comes to being quite literally put under the scalpel... honesty, as they say, is the best policy.
Huh. Really? That's pretty hypocritical for someone who defended DIY hormone replacement therapy for like a billion pages.
Why is it not okay to lie to a doctor when it's okay to ignore them?
Do you count me putting you on the receiving end of an infinite combo as "hitting you"? Because if not, then I won't hit you. If so, I'm totally gonna hit you.
I... have no idea what you're talking about. Back back lowpunch?
[...]
Really, it comes down to a "respect is earned, not given out freely" type of dealie. Someone comes in showing no respect and starts demanding it, I'm not even going to try to humour them.
One could then argue that all humans, as beings alike in dignity, are allowed a little respect; even the worst person is still a person with their own proverbial crosses to bear.
In a word: No.
In more words than one: One of the first things such confused people learn when entering the trans* community is that gender identity and sexual orientation are completely independent of each other. Many words have been written and spoken on this subject. Granted, you'll be seeing those "am I really just a confused gay man?" threads in trans forums (usually but not always owing to the trans woman in question being on the butch end of things rather than anything else) for as long as society is utterly ****ty towards trans women, but on the whole the community's got a solid grasp of things as far as that goes.
Wait, wait, wait: back up there a second. So, earlier, we had this whole thing where you were quite vocal about the idea of speaking for members of the trans* community that you, yourself, didn't feel comfortable speaking for (not to open that can of mutant man-eating worms again), but now you're so confident of this assertion that you, what, just dismiss my point out of hand? Heck, you even provide examples of my point, "but on the whole the community's got a solid grasp of things as far as that goes." Who cares about "the whole" when all I was saying is that being part of a sexuality-defined demographic while being not sexuality-defined oneself could confuse some people. Are we just done talking about individual trans* people now? How their suffering and dysphoria can be overwhelming? When did that happen?
When you get the first post on a new page, is basically it. Which, given my superior posts-per-page settings, I accomplished this page (which is page 25 for me, incidentally—I shudder to think how many pages this thread has on inferior settings).
Ah, thank you. I find that annoying when it happens to me.
65 pages, btw, on inferior settings.
One of the things you'll often find regarding the queer community taking an "us vs them" attitude is that it isn't this way because we're isolationists of some sort. Quite the opposite: Most of us would be perfectly content living "normal" lives. But given the complex and painful social attitudes towards queer people, this "us vs them" attitude is actually something we're forced into, even to the point where each subdivision of the queer community (basically each letter in LGBT) feels some minor kind of "us vs them" towards other subdivisions of the queer community, such as how you'll find gay and lesbian people who throw bisexual/pansexual people in with "them" because we have the "choice" to live heteronormative lives and blah blah. Hurt a group of people enough and they'll start to huddle together and lash out at everyone not in their group, even if it's not particularly useful or even rational to do so.
Which, to put it quite frankly, is for the most part paranoid crap. Yes, bad things happen to trans* people, and I hate that this is allowed to continue in society, but what you've provided here is an excuse, not a reason. Yes, some members of society are going to react badly to someone who happens to be gay, or trans*, or any deviation from their own narrow views, but the vast majority of people are going to be either uncaring or understanding. It's pointing at the lowest end of a really big bell curve and saying "that .001% is why we're trying to hide."
To be fair, it's more a fear of what a member of the privileged classes represents.
What does the privileged class represent, anyways? I've been a part of it for... a really long time now... and I don't have the foggiest idea.
Even though a straight cis white man might not do anything outright oppressive, they can still choose to, at any time.
Ha! And the next hitchhiker you pick up may be an axe murderer, the next dog you meet might give you rabies when he chews your leg off, or the lawyer you seek council from might sue you...
Kind of a "scorpion and the frog" thing (or "and the fox" if you only know this through Star Trek), where you're still likely to get stung even if the other doesn't plan to do so. Except that in this case, in addition to malicious, premeditated harm, they can also cause harm through ignorant attempts to "support" you or else through simple ignorance.
So what you're implying is that, at any moment, any person you know can suddenly harm you even if they don't mean to and are sorry for it? You'll forgive me if I don't think most people can be compared to an abusive boyfriend like that.
Alternatively, here's a little anecdote as related by a trans woman I know: The perennial dead horse trope of washrooms. There are cis women out there who, to put it simply, don't want trans women in public washrooms with them, citing irrational fears that they may be assaulted or that you might find men dressing as women and claiming to be trans for voyeuristic purposes (such cis women can't ever find examples of such things ever happening, but they cling to the fear anyway). Now, this trans woman (for the sake of narration I'll call her Dudette) feels quite the reverse—she's the one scared of all the cis women in there. All it takes is a single cis woman to raise a stink, and suddenly Dudette's landed in hot ****. Every cis woman in there has the potential to do this. Dudette can't simply take it on good faith that someone won't see her as a man and do the whole "someone dropped a spoon" ninja flipout on her. An individual cis woman might not, but there exist those who would, and so each cis woman represents the potential for Dudete to be branded a sexual predator solely because she couldn't hold it any longer.
If you had to live with that kind of fear attached to using a public washroom, you'd be a little wary of cis people too.
I am sorry your friend has to live in such fear, I really am. That's why I'm so concerned about the ambiguity tied to those who are transgender: if you tie my hands so I cannot be a part of the education process, I can do little more than feel sorry for the individuals involved in stories like these.
To address the point as given, though, it's also not really related: a lesbian woman would still use the woman's room, correct (even though ironically she would be more likely to be a sexual predator)? So why would she be able to relate better to this heartwrenching story than I would? I'm not questioning whether or not stuff like you describe has to stop, it obviously should, I'm questioning why grouping oneself with the sexually-defined crowd would help.
Btw, I hate how the phrase "sexually-defined" sounds, I'll be using "LGB" instead although it doesn't do nearly as good a job.
And yet someone who looks and generally acts very much like you yourself do could, instead, pose a very real danger of assault or even murder to a trans woman (where even if they're convicted, the sentence will almost certainly be very lenient, and the victim stands a depressingly real chance of being memorialized as a "man"), and there's no external way to distinguish beforehand between the two groups.
So what's wrong with a commercial of a savage beating?
Good luck getting it aired, for one.
Nice dodge, but it didn't answer the question so I'll rephrase: does a cis male getting a breast enhancement specifically to have more feminine breasts indicate a healthy state of being? Because you're saying that a trans* female not getting them will cause an unhealthy state.
A trans woman who feels she needs it, definitely. Anyway, if a cis male wants to get a BA, I don't see how that's an unhealthy state of being. His body, after all. But then again I'm one of those people who believes everyone should have complete control over their bodies without restriction.
Huh. Really? That's pretty hypocritical for someone who defended DIY hormone replacement therapy for like a billion pages.
Why is it not okay to lie to a doctor when it's okay to ignore them?
I think there's a pretty substantial difference between lying to a doctor in order for them to write you a prescription or a referral and lying to them to put you under the knife. It's kind of like how that one guy in WCT tried to call me out on advocating DIY hormones but not DIY ADD meds—specifically what you're ultimately doing matters.
I... have no idea what you're talking about. Back back lowpunch?
I don't even know if Lu Bu has an infinite combo or not. There might be some move canceling you can do in one of the DW games but I'm so casual with those that they're just button-mashing to me.
One could then argue that all humans, as beings alike in dignity, are allowed a little respect; even the worst person is still a person with their own proverbial crosses to bear.
Stalin himself could materialize in front of me and the worst I'd do at first would be ask him kindly and respectfully to get out of my house (cause honestly now, I don't feel like entertaining Stalin as my houseguest), but if I saw him injured on the side of the road, I'd leave him there.
Who cares about "the whole" when all I was saying is that being part of a sexuality-defined demographic while being not sexuality-defined oneself could confuse some people.
Seems to confuse mostly straight cis people (and, to be fair, some LGBs) who think that LGBT is necessarily a sexuality-defined demographic despite that T hanging on the end there. It's more a demographic that's defined by a separation from normative sexual identities.
Ah, thank you. I find that annoying when it happens to me.
As if I needed yet another reason to suspect you're my polar opposite, I actually try to shoot for pageclaims. It doesn't usually work.
What does the privileged class represent, anyways? I've been a part of it for... a really long time now... and I don't have the foggiest idea.
Power, largely. Entitlement. Oppression. The quote in my sig sums it up nicely. In the case of ye olde washroom issue (which probably seems relatively new to you but it's a cringeworthy tired old dead horse topic from my POV), members of the privileged class embody the entitlement that only cis people should have access to washrooms of their identified gender, and the power to kick out trans people to great fanfare and nigh universal support. And even if someone isn't actively abusing their privilege, they might be unintentionally abusing it, or might start to abuse it the minute they decide they don't like the idea of ceding anything to a marginalized class (for instance, a cis woman being all "oh yeah I support trans women" without ever having met one, and who reverses her opinion once she finds they don't live up to her expectations).
Again, kind of a "scorpion and the frog" thing.
Ha! And the next hitchhiker you pick up may be an axe murderer, the next dog you meet might give you rabies when he chews your leg off, or the lawyer you seek council from might sue you...
And from the POV of a trans woman, the next cis person you meet might insist on calling you "he" and get argumentative at being corrected. The next cis woman you see in a washroom might show bigotry either aggressively (telling you that you don't belong) or passive-aggressively (emphasizing to their child that you're all kinds of unpleasant things within earshot of you).
Hell, some people might not mean any harm at all, but still either presume to speak over you in terms of trans rights, or still insist that they know better than you about certain things. I saw a cis guy the other day who claimed to be an ally swear up and down that saying a trans woman was always a woman is "lying" and that there's a definite point where you "become a real woman." And you bet he got huffy when I corrected him.
It's far more likely that you'll see stuff like that than see someone secretly being an axe murderer. Speaking of which:
So what you're implying is that, at any moment, any person you know can suddenly harm you even if they don't mean to and are sorry for it? You'll forgive me if I don't think most people can be compared to an abusive boyfriend like that.
No, I'm not implying that. I'm outright saying it. I agree it shouldn't be compared to an abusive boyfriend, however. Also remember that being "sorry" doesn't really help if you keep right on hurting someone in the same way.
To address the point as given, though, it's also not really related: a lesbian woman would still use the woman's room, correct (even though ironically she would be more likely to be a sexual predator)? So why would she be able to relate better to this heartwrenching story than I would? I'm not questioning whether or not stuff like you describe has to stop, it obviously should, I'm questioning why grouping oneself with the sexually-defined crowd would help.
You've stumbled across a very good point: LGB cis individuals shouldn't act as if they can relate to trans issues any better than straight cis individuals can. There are actually problems with the LGB community acting as if they do, or scapegoating ignorance off one single trans person (relatively famous gay columnist Dan Savage is very much guilty of both).
And yet it does actually go the other way: Straight trans individuals can relate to many LGB issues solely because they receive a lot of homophobia themselves (if only from ignorant people who believe transsexuality is homosexuality dialed up to 11), or because they tried to live as gay men or lesbian women for a time themselves (I read a "you know you're trans when" thing once that basically said "when you have to come to terms with the fact that you're really straight").
And so we're all damned!?!!?!?!
Pretty much. I mean, there's no way to tell beforehand which cis guy is fine and which cis guy will assault or even murder you. Or which cis guy will seem to be the former then suddenly switch to the latter.
I feel like BS's request was probably directed to me. I have problems talking about things directly, pretty much mo matter what it is. So. Complying with request go!
[Also, misclick, I see your sig. Feel free to PM me w/a continuation. Maybe that'd be even better, even, like IM's or some form of instant communication.]
Meh. I haven't read the entirety of this website either but it's awesome too.
Honestly, does anyone ever actually read an entire website?
I didn't read the article I linked, fully, is what I meant. In the future I'll read stuff closer. Eck.
I think the fact that it doesn't help you directly gain more material power makes it more important, not less... which, come to think of it, is probably why I caved so easily to your point: if the inherently internal aspect of empathy is touted out as a badge of honor, it does become worthless.
Yeah. I mean, I don't think empathy is worthless at all. But if looked at strictly from a power standpoint [which is what happens if you claim it] ... well, there you go. Basically, let me repeat what you just said. There, I did it.
That's a very us-vs.-them attitude, though, which I find confusing as one of the 'them.' I mean, how many words have been spilled on this thread about the differences between gender and sex, not to mention gender, sex, and sexual preference? I guess I just don't see what you're trying to 'make work.'
Sure, and I agree. But if I've had any stake in this thread it's to prove that not all of us normies are okay with other people being paranoid or, worse still, scared of me. The idea that there are people out there who distrust me just because I'm a straight white guy is simply horrifying, not to mention befuddling; about the worst you have to fear from a guy like me is that I might beat you at Super Mario Bros.
There are people 'x' who distrust other people 'y' for any thousands of numbers of reasons. Racism's roots are in a lack of trust. People are different, and those differences are trumpeted in one way or another.
Basically: you're not okay with people being scared of you? Well, too bad, you're going to have to deal with it. I'm going to continue to say this: as a single person wanting to fix the problem, I'd say that what you can do is encourage others to be tolerant if they aren't, and to be tolerant yourself. Other than that, there isn't really much. Society's larger than us. Things do appear to be happening in this section. We'll see what happens.
Thank you, and to bLatch too since I forgot to thank him then.
What's a whispernet?.. sorry I'm not up on the lingo, back in those days I was too busy watching Strong Bad.
I was using whispernet as just a quiet protocol for people to chat on. After some research it's occured to me that its primary use is for Amazon's whispernet 3g stuff. So, whoops.
True, true. It was unfair of me to ponder the idea, I see that now.
Touche. Still, if someone's gonna say it, it might as well be the jackass, right?
Ooh, implied causation.
What if -nobody- says it? One thing I've been noticing is that everyone who's going to these random 'sex and gender' centers I've started to attend ... they're all much more open to everything than me in ways that I simply can't really understand. Perhaps, in the future, nobody will say it. Maybe nobody will think it, either.
In any case, being *the person to say it* doesn't make *saying it* any better, does it?
I continue to agree with this, but I do have to wonder if, like empathy, anger does have a place in a perfect world.
Anger's role in a perfect world ... no, not really. Ideally anger's corrective. You get angry at things that are wrong, and then you correct them. Without things that are wrong, there's nothing to be angry at.
Just one of the many reasons that a 'perfect world' isn't really ever going to be perfect.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
my mouth is full of winsome lies -
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
Agreed with the "Kilt" comment, this is obviously ridiculous. Just another example of stupid people worldwide. I thought I'd seen it all after they legalized domestic abuse in Kansas lol
I still need to watch that movie ... dang. Also, Maddox is a genius. I own the Alphabet of Manliness but missed him when he came through my college town [back when I'd moved away for college] because I couldn't get there. ... So no signature. BUT HE IS AWESOME.
I still think Zoolander was amazing. I don't even care. It's totally true, Ben Stiller makes way too many movies.
I didn't even read it fully, though! Egh.
Shrug. What can I say? Heh.
How? In a real sense, empathy IS worthless. If you only look at "getting the best thing" and 'winning' life from a monetary and power standpoint, real empathy is completely useless. That's not what it's for, though: it's so people can feel better, so you can feel better, and so the human race can -be- better. It doesn't help for any monetary and political gain.
Oh well. It happens. Seems to be just that I'm not terribly good at getting my point across, either, but whatever.
Well, it's still a last-ditch attempt to make things work.
Well, I'd argue that it's at the very least understandable paranoia in this case, though.
Blatch is right: IRC's internet relay chat, basically a chat client that only cool kids use and/or know about. And by cool kids I mean 'random people'. It's good, though. Archaic but nice in its simplicity. Feels kind of like a whispernet.
Here is Numbers' take on IRC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ
It is ... let's say it's slightly inaccurate.
Where would the goblins take them away, by the way? To Isengard?
Well, in general, too. I do things for women, but not specific things that I only do for women? The death of chivalry and all that.
... Because they're a jackass? You're making it too easy here, come on.
Thank you. [/bow.] I have more.
You mean, have they watched good movies? Of course not.
Think of the YYY's video for "Heads will Roll".
In a perfect world, it should be able to bore people. A THOUSAND TIMES YES. When I thought of your question, I thought "Well, the Trail of Tears was really interesting. Maybe we should've kept that up. Doesn't that sound fun?"
The end goal of equality is when everybody can respect other peoples' differences without getting aggravated by them.
... And I had to add 'goal' to that last sentence. This is probably why I sometimes don't express myself so clearly. Oh well.
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
I do miss Maddox. The early days of the internet, when content mattered, ah, the memories. Him and Homestarrunner.com were pretty much the whole reason to have a connection back in the day.
Meh. I haven't read the entirety of this website either but it's awesome too.
Honestly, does anyone ever actually read an entire website?
I think the fact that it doesn't help you directly gain more material power makes it more important, not less... which, come to think of it, is probably why I caved so easily to your point: if the inherently internal aspect of empathy is touted out as a badge of honor, it does become worthless.
Regardless, keep fighting the good fight.
That's a very us-vs.-them attitude, though, which I find confusing as one of the 'them.' I mean, how many words have been spilled on this thread about the differences between gender and sex, not to mention gender, sex, and sexual preference? I guess I just don't see what you're trying to 'make work.'
Sure, and I agree. But if I've had any stake in this thread it's to prove that not all of us normies are okay with other people being paranoid or, worse still, scared of me. The idea that there are people out there who distrust me just because I'm a straight white guy is simply horrifying, not to mention befuddling; about the worst you have to fear from a guy like me is that I might beat you at Super Mario Bros.
Thank you, and to bLatch too since I forgot to thank him then.
What's a whispernet?.. sorry I'm not up on the lingo, back in those days I was too busy watching Strong Bad.
Sigh. No, no, they'd take them to the castle of the Goblin King (at the heart of the Maze), played by David Bowie, who does the most hypnotising things with his balls while wearing rediculous spandex costumes. No, I'm not making that up, it's rated G by the way.
I suddenly have the strongest urge to yell at young people to get off mah lawn.
*waves cane*
True, true. It was unfair of me to ponder the idea, I see that now.
Touche. Still, if someone's gonna say it, it might as well be the jackass, right?
Ooh, implied causation.
I look forward to it. I'll try to feed you some lines so you can use the whole repertoire.
Ah. You have weird friends.
Hmmm. I dunno, I think Teia's "Kill Bill" idea was better.
Good point. No, wait, great point.
And I continue to agree with this, but I do have to wonder if, like empathy, anger does have a place in a perfect world.
At first I didn't get it. Then I figured it out. Then I roflcoptor'd.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Yes, you are. What luck then that our government basically worships America and is willing to do whatever fanboyish thing it feels will ingratiate themselves with you.
I'll stop getting political now.
They're both superficially similar in the sense that they're both raising awareness by spreading a message as wide as you can, but past that one's just... advertisement strewn about, whereas the other is a rallying point for social activism. I dunno about you, but the visual impact of a savage beating does more for me than what you'd get when you see "don't hate trans people kthx" while you're waiting for the commercials to finish so you can get back to laughing at Quagmire's dad.
Do I personally think that? Sure. It's your body. If you want them, you should be able to get them the same way anyone else can get them.
Given that you're basically arguing "lie to the doctor," I don't think there's anything defensible about your position anyway. Lying to medical professionals may sometimes be required (such as playing along with gatekeeping psychs who operate on 1980s stereotypes), but when it comes to being quite literally put under the scalpel... honesty, as they say, is the best policy.
Do you count me putting you on the receiving end of an infinite combo as "hitting you"? Because if not, then I won't hit you. If so, I'm totally gonna hit you.
I'd make a snarky comment about cissexists and transphobes not deserving respect, but I think that'd just come across as me whining more than anything else. But to get a little more on topic, I think one could understand just why I'd be amenable to agreement to disagree with someone whose experiences, while valid, are different than mine, as compared to someone with no experience who proceeds to tell me that my experience doesn't count (my favourite is the "I'm a formal academic and your experiences aren't a credible source of anything" argument). And I also think it'd be somewhat understandable if I met that kind of blatant disrespect with less respect than the person probably wants from me.
Really, it comes down to a "respect is earned, not given out freely" type of dealie. Someone comes in showing no respect and starts demanding it, I'm not even going to try to humour them.
In a word: No.
In more words than one: One of the first things such confused people learn when entering the trans* community is that gender identity and sexual orientation are completely independent of each other. Many words have been written and spoken on this subject. Granted, you'll be seeing those "am I really just a confused gay man?" threads in trans forums (usually but not always owing to the trans woman in question being on the butch end of things rather than anything else) for as long as society is utterly ****ty towards trans women, but on the whole the community's got a solid grasp of things as far as that goes.
Pulp Fiction had Uma Thurman and Bruce Willis. Your opinion is invalid~
When you get the first post on a new page, is basically it. Which, given my superior posts-per-page settings, I accomplished this page (which is page 25 for me, incidentally—I shudder to think how many pages this thread has on inferior settings).
Also not directed at me, but I like to think what I'd have to say to it is relevant regardless:
One of the things you'll often find regarding the queer community taking an "us vs them" attitude is that it isn't this way because we're isolationists of some sort. Quite the opposite: Most of us would be perfectly content living "normal" lives. But given the complex and painful social attitudes towards queer people, this "us vs them" attitude is actually something we're forced into, even to the point where each subdivision of the queer community (basically each letter in LGBT) feels some minor kind of "us vs them" towards other subdivisions of the queer community, such as how you'll find gay and lesbian people who throw bisexual/pansexual people in with "them" because we have the "choice" to live heteronormative lives and blah blah. Hurt a group of people enough and they'll start to huddle together and lash out at everyone not in their group, even if it's not particularly useful or even rational to do so.
To be fair, it's more a fear of what a member of the privileged classes represents. Even though a straight cis white man might not do anything outright oppressive, they can still choose to, at any time. Kind of a "scorpion and the frog" thing (or "and the fox" if you only know this through Star Trek), where you're still likely to get stung even if the other doesn't plan to do so. Except that in this case, in addition to malicious, premeditated harm, they can also cause harm through ignorant attempts to "support" you or else through simple ignorance.
Alternatively, here's a little anecdote as related by a trans woman I know: The perennial dead horse trope of washrooms. There are cis women out there who, to put it simply, don't want trans women in public washrooms with them, citing irrational fears that they may be assaulted or that you might find men dressing as women and claiming to be trans for voyeuristic purposes (such cis women can't ever find examples of such things ever happening, but they cling to the fear anyway). Now, this trans woman (for the sake of narration I'll call her Dudette) feels quite the reverse—she's the one scared of all the cis women in there. All it takes is a single cis woman to raise a stink, and suddenly Dudette's landed in hot ****. Every cis woman in there has the potential to do this. Dudette can't simply take it on good faith that someone won't see her as a man and do the whole "someone dropped a spoon" ninja flipout on her. An individual cis woman might not, but there exist those who would, and so each cis woman represents the potential for Dudete to be branded a sexual predator solely because she couldn't hold it any longer.
If you had to live with that kind of fear attached to using a public washroom, you'd be a little wary of cis people too.
And yet someone who looks and generally acts very much like you yourself do could, instead, pose a very real danger of assault or even murder to a trans woman (where even if they're convicted, the sentence will almost certainly be very lenient, and the victim stands a depressingly real chance of being memorialized as a "man"), and there's no external way to distinguish beforehand between the two groups.
My apologies if the cuts do not pass muster.
So what's wrong with a commercial of a savage beating?
Nice dodge, but it didn't answer the question so I'll rephrase: does a cis male getting a breast enhancement specifically to have more feminine breasts indicate a healthy state of being? Because you're saying that a trans* female not getting them will cause an unhealthy state.
Huh. Really? That's pretty hypocritical for someone who defended DIY hormone replacement therapy for like a billion pages.
Why is it not okay to lie to a doctor when it's okay to ignore them?
I... have no idea what you're talking about. Back back lowpunch?
One could then argue that all humans, as beings alike in dignity, are allowed a little respect; even the worst person is still a person with their own proverbial crosses to bear.
Wait, wait, wait: back up there a second. So, earlier, we had this whole thing where you were quite vocal about the idea of speaking for members of the trans* community that you, yourself, didn't feel comfortable speaking for (not to open that can of mutant man-eating worms again), but now you're so confident of this assertion that you, what, just dismiss my point out of hand? Heck, you even provide examples of my point, "but on the whole the community's got a solid grasp of things as far as that goes." Who cares about "the whole" when all I was saying is that being part of a sexuality-defined demographic while being not sexuality-defined oneself could confuse some people. Are we just done talking about individual trans* people now? How their suffering and dysphoria can be overwhelming? When did that happen?
Ah, thank you. I find that annoying when it happens to me.
65 pages, btw, on inferior settings.
Which, to put it quite frankly, is for the most part paranoid crap. Yes, bad things happen to trans* people, and I hate that this is allowed to continue in society, but what you've provided here is an excuse, not a reason. Yes, some members of society are going to react badly to someone who happens to be gay, or trans*, or any deviation from their own narrow views, but the vast majority of people are going to be either uncaring or understanding. It's pointing at the lowest end of a really big bell curve and saying "that .001% is why we're trying to hide."
What does the privileged class represent, anyways? I've been a part of it for... a really long time now... and I don't have the foggiest idea.
Ha! And the next hitchhiker you pick up may be an axe murderer, the next dog you meet might give you rabies when he chews your leg off, or the lawyer you seek council from might sue you...
So what you're implying is that, at any moment, any person you know can suddenly harm you even if they don't mean to and are sorry for it? You'll forgive me if I don't think most people can be compared to an abusive boyfriend like that.
I am sorry your friend has to live in such fear, I really am. That's why I'm so concerned about the ambiguity tied to those who are transgender: if you tie my hands so I cannot be a part of the education process, I can do little more than feel sorry for the individuals involved in stories like these.
To address the point as given, though, it's also not really related: a lesbian woman would still use the woman's room, correct (even though ironically she would be more likely to be a sexual predator)? So why would she be able to relate better to this heartwrenching story than I would? I'm not questioning whether or not stuff like you describe has to stop, it obviously should, I'm questioning why grouping oneself with the sexually-defined crowd would help.
Btw, I hate how the phrase "sexually-defined" sounds, I'll be using "LGB" instead although it doesn't do nearly as good a job.
And so we're all damned!?!!?!?!
Good luck getting it aired, for one.
A trans woman who feels she needs it, definitely. Anyway, if a cis male wants to get a BA, I don't see how that's an unhealthy state of being. His body, after all. But then again I'm one of those people who believes everyone should have complete control over their bodies without restriction.
I think there's a pretty substantial difference between lying to a doctor in order for them to write you a prescription or a referral and lying to them to put you under the knife. It's kind of like how that one guy in WCT tried to call me out on advocating DIY hormones but not DIY ADD meds—specifically what you're ultimately doing matters.
I don't even know if Lu Bu has an infinite combo or not. There might be some move canceling you can do in one of the DW games but I'm so casual with those that they're just button-mashing to me.
Stalin himself could materialize in front of me and the worst I'd do at first would be ask him kindly and respectfully to get out of my house (cause honestly now, I don't feel like entertaining Stalin as my houseguest), but if I saw him injured on the side of the road, I'd leave him there.
Seems to confuse mostly straight cis people (and, to be fair, some LGBs) who think that LGBT is necessarily a sexuality-defined demographic despite that T hanging on the end there. It's more a demographic that's defined by a separation from normative sexual identities.
As if I needed yet another reason to suspect you're my polar opposite, I actually try to shoot for pageclaims. It doesn't usually work.
Power, largely. Entitlement. Oppression. The quote in my sig sums it up nicely. In the case of ye olde washroom issue (which probably seems relatively new to you but it's a cringeworthy tired old dead horse topic from my POV), members of the privileged class embody the entitlement that only cis people should have access to washrooms of their identified gender, and the power to kick out trans people to great fanfare and nigh universal support. And even if someone isn't actively abusing their privilege, they might be unintentionally abusing it, or might start to abuse it the minute they decide they don't like the idea of ceding anything to a marginalized class (for instance, a cis woman being all "oh yeah I support trans women" without ever having met one, and who reverses her opinion once she finds they don't live up to her expectations).
Again, kind of a "scorpion and the frog" thing.
And from the POV of a trans woman, the next cis person you meet might insist on calling you "he" and get argumentative at being corrected. The next cis woman you see in a washroom might show bigotry either aggressively (telling you that you don't belong) or passive-aggressively (emphasizing to their child that you're all kinds of unpleasant things within earshot of you).
Hell, some people might not mean any harm at all, but still either presume to speak over you in terms of trans rights, or still insist that they know better than you about certain things. I saw a cis guy the other day who claimed to be an ally swear up and down that saying a trans woman was always a woman is "lying" and that there's a definite point where you "become a real woman." And you bet he got huffy when I corrected him.
It's far more likely that you'll see stuff like that than see someone secretly being an axe murderer. Speaking of which:
No, I'm not implying that. I'm outright saying it. I agree it shouldn't be compared to an abusive boyfriend, however. Also remember that being "sorry" doesn't really help if you keep right on hurting someone in the same way.
You've stumbled across a very good point: LGB cis individuals shouldn't act as if they can relate to trans issues any better than straight cis individuals can. There are actually problems with the LGB community acting as if they do, or scapegoating ignorance off one single trans person (relatively famous gay columnist Dan Savage is very much guilty of both).
And yet it does actually go the other way: Straight trans individuals can relate to many LGB issues solely because they receive a lot of homophobia themselves (if only from ignorant people who believe transsexuality is homosexuality dialed up to 11), or because they tried to live as gay men or lesbian women for a time themselves (I read a "you know you're trans when" thing once that basically said "when you have to come to terms with the fact that you're really straight").
Pretty much. I mean, there's no way to tell beforehand which cis guy is fine and which cis guy will assault or even murder you. Or which cis guy will seem to be the former then suddenly switch to the latter.
[Also, misclick, I see your sig. Feel free to PM me w/a continuation. Maybe that'd be even better, even, like IM's or some form of instant communication.]
I didn't read the article I linked, fully, is what I meant. In the future I'll read stuff closer. Eck.
Yeah. I mean, I don't think empathy is worthless at all. But if looked at strictly from a power standpoint [which is what happens if you claim it] ... well, there you go. Basically, let me repeat what you just said. There, I did it.
There are people 'x' who distrust other people 'y' for any thousands of numbers of reasons. Racism's roots are in a lack of trust. People are different, and those differences are trumpeted in one way or another.
Basically: you're not okay with people being scared of you? Well, too bad, you're going to have to deal with it. I'm going to continue to say this: as a single person wanting to fix the problem, I'd say that what you can do is encourage others to be tolerant if they aren't, and to be tolerant yourself. Other than that, there isn't really much. Society's larger than us. Things do appear to be happening in this section. We'll see what happens.
I was using whispernet as just a quiet protocol for people to chat on. After some research it's occured to me that its primary use is for Amazon's whispernet 3g stuff. So, whoops.
What if -nobody- says it? One thing I've been noticing is that everyone who's going to these random 'sex and gender' centers I've started to attend ... they're all much more open to everything than me in ways that I simply can't really understand. Perhaps, in the future, nobody will say it. Maybe nobody will think it, either.
In any case, being *the person to say it* doesn't make *saying it* any better, does it?
Anger's role in a perfect world ... no, not really. Ideally anger's corrective. You get angry at things that are wrong, and then you correct them. Without things that are wrong, there's nothing to be angry at.
Just one of the many reasons that a 'perfect world' isn't really ever going to be perfect.
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
Art Page
Alters for sale