"You're sorry X feels that way." I don't get it. You didn't make that person feel anything, or do anything to that person at all. That I know, when someone says this, at least they've done something to a person. The one other case is when you speak for another group, who (for some rational reason or not) you feel responsible and apologetic. You feel sorry, 'apologetic', for some other people, that they have done something or other to a person.
So... you are/would be apologetic that persons would tell a transwoman she can only be in the running for prom king. Okay. Sounds appropriate (if this kind of extended apologetic-hood ever makes sense). Does that mean the earlier comparison makes sense to you now?
No. I still agree with the school. But I am sorry that someone (the transsexual being affected by it) would have to feel that way.
Not all masculine bodies follow the wide-shouldered-narrow-hipped V figure. Not all feminine bodies are perfect hourglasses. There are dresses for women with boyish figures.
The key term is "women with boyish figures," and it still looks weird on a man because a woman's body is still contoured differently than a man's. I really don't care about the exceptions with castrati and ect. In aggregate, women's clothing look ill fitting on men.
We're talking about a situation in which he chose to be disruptive. In all similar situations, it is a given that the student will be ejected from class.
While I disagree with suspension, it is appropriate to maintain decorum in the classroom. So that people, can, you know, learn. It is a school after all, not a social experiment.
I sort of agree with the suspension, he should have picked a more fetching attire.
In many schools, the reason hats are banned is when gang members start using them as a way to identify each other by. That is a pretty tremendous reason to ban them.
The smarter people that dealt with black market activities tried to not raise attention to themselves by dressing normally. Gangs equally also develop other symbolism, so the hat bannings never really do much in aggregate unless if there's a larger policy on dress such as school uniforms. The only places that use this excuse are white middle class school districts without other anti-gang stuff.
While I've never witnessed a gang related fight personally, I've heard of specific cases where this does happen. Why is that a cop out? Sure there are other ways to signal as such, but taking away one of the clear markers which is in no way an important part of one's clothing (especially when inside) doesn't sound that bad at all.
Another issue with hats is the covering of the eyes and the resulting non-interaction and non-socialization.
People also hid drugs in their hats and money, money being the more operative of the two because of pick pockets. Drugs typically in lockers, nondescript items such as a box, hidden pockets, and some more "creative" places. Drugs from what I noticed were mostly hidden in hidden jacket pockets, since it was easier to pull off an illegal trade and have a larger store of substances.
The eye thing I consider more of a teacher-student relationship problem or a more general issue with that student and school culture. If people aren't serious about school, they'll find a way to sleep or not pay attention.
I mean you could argue for school uniforms and there have been studies show they are effective in purging bullying, gang issues, and ect. Which again provides a different context to allow for a "male skirted uniform" to be created. His dress did look stupid on him, unlike more traditional forms of male dress. I mean you whites do have enough Scots running around, someone has to be able to design a fetching dress for a man.
my job has a strict dress code spelled out for both men and women and what they are suppose to wear. most professional businesses do. you either accept them and follow with others or you can be let go.
one guy that use to work here got written up all the time for wearing clothes outside of the dress code. needless to say along with some other events he doesn't work here anymore.
It also makes for interesting head games with employees you want to get rid of. My main problem though is with summer, a lot of the typical business attire is not really conditioned for warm weather. Older attire for men in the States was adjusted to be of lighter materials and colors, however it still doesn't make much sense to not invent some new lighter clothing for summer that look professional.
Even Japan in the wake of the energy crisis there has mandated people not wears and the like to keep down cooling costs. It is an untapped market for business attire, but requires readjustment in how we define dress codes.
Perhaps, but that's still not for the school to decide. Allowing intent to matter just means that if, say, a trans girl were to come to school in feminine attire (and I've seen cis girls get away with... let's say provocative outfits), all the school has to do is say "well, this student was just doing this to cause disruption" and suddenly it's the school's word against the student's and everyone loses. We don't live in the 1950s. There's no reason to be bound by ridiculous gender-based stereotypes 60 years later.
Agreed that intent does not matter. But matters of evidence (schools word vs the students word) are not relevant to the boys defence either. Moreover, matters of time period are not relevant to the boys defence.
The proper defence of the boy is as follows: The boy wears a dress, other children are disruptive in class because the boy is wearing a dress. It is the other student being disruptive - not the boy. He can not reasonably be held responsible for their reaction to his style of dress. He can not be held accountable for the actions of others.
But agreed, the boy should not be sanctioned at all for wearing a style of clothing
"Pseudo" intellectualism. If you think there are such glaring problems, raise them. I'll gladly expand on any part you like.
But history has shown that you wont always expand on questions raised about your posts. I have personal experience of this.
Foreigner
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You colonization of language is not appreciated.
But I'm not sure that I don't agree with the school not letting a guy being voted prom queen. Could I have thrown on a dress and had a bunch of my friends vote for me and ruin the prom king/queen thing? No.
Oh, I agree, a guy shouldn't be voted prom queen. Thing is, a trans girl isn't a guy. She might have a masculine body, but she's still a girl. The difference between trans women and you throwing on a dress is the difference between any other woman and you throwing on a dress. Even if you want to get into the "well, we're both starting out with masculine bodies" argument, you're still not in the same league because I highly doubt you're willing to present as a woman every single day and endure massive amounts of therapy just to "prove" to a gatekeeping medical establishment that you're serious about your identity. I doubt you've got feminine brain structure and possibly other physical conditions driving you towards a female identity.
This is where Teia is getting lost. She is taking up the sword of gender equality in a debate where gender equality is not the issue.
Except that it is, because it's nonsense like this that gives bigots ammo to use in other situations.
Same as the situation where in Canada, your healthcare covers trans operations and medicine. Here in America, it doesn't. So it's still an expensive procedure here.
HRT is something like 50% covered. SRS is covered but you need to provide your own fare to Montreal. Everything else is paid out of pocket.
Still miles better than America, though.
You missed the part where the boy explicitly says that he wants to be even more outlandish and crazy because he was punished for it.
Yes, and in doing so he's giving people even more ammo to use against gender-variant MAAB people. Which segues nicely into:
I reiterate, this isn't a gender confused person trying to find their way in the world and being persecuted for it.
As far as bigots are concerned, there's zero difference between this guy and some trans girl who simply wants to express her gender identity. I'm not saying I agree with what the kid in the OP did. While I agree with his right to express himself, and I believe "boy in a dress is offensive" is the root of the issue, it doesn't change that what he's doing isn't anywhere near so noble.
I'm sorry they would feel that way.
Well, when you've got female brain structure and your internal gender identity is female regardless of any attempt to change or bury it, and you experience great distress presenting to the world as male, when literally the only thing you want in the entire world is to be treated like any other woman, it's... unpleasant (to say the least) when you're treated like a guy who's either mentally ill or a sexual deviant.
Like the guy said, imagine you personally were told you could only run for the "wrong" title. And (presuming you're male) that you could only go to prom in a dress. And no one ever refers to you or treats you as male. Ever.
No. I still agree with the school. But I am sorry that someone (the transsexual being affected by it) would have to feel that way.
But what does that mean? You are apologetic. It suggests that there is atonement which could be made. Yes, not often is attention given to the possibility of atoning but I claim it as a rule: If there is apology, then there can be Just atonement. Something you do which renews and repays all transgression is the idea (keeping in mind that it could only repair a relationship between the atoner and the one atoned to; it can't make right any wrongdoing done outside those two parties).
Sorry-hood, or rather, the I'm sorry confession, could be a crypto request for terms of atonement.
So, you would hope the transwoman could give you terms by which you could demonstrate your sorry-hood for her suffering due to the school decision with which you agree?
This one makes not so much sense. I mean, if you are sympathizing with an object of a decision - you are sorry that the consequences are such - isn't that to say you find that decision harsh in some way? It is possible, I'm not saying it's a contradiction, but, you are saying this situation is like saying to your friend, "I feel for you but this is the right thing to do?" But that's not quite right. "sympathize" would work, but sympathize is not sorry. Sorry means something wrong happened. So if something wrong happened, but you agree with it... what is going on there?
This could just be me not understanding something, language is confusing for me pathologically, but, it would help to see an explanation of this, and it ought to help if maybe two other people could just add that what you said as you said it does and did make sense.
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But what does that mean? You are apologetic. It suggests that there is atonement which could be made. Yes, not often is attention given to the possibility of atoning but I claim it as a rule: If there is apology, then there can be Just atonement. Something you do which renews and repays all transgression is the idea (keeping in mind that it could only repair a relationship between the atoner and the one atoned to; it can't make right any wrongdoing done outside those two parties).
Sorry-hood, or rather, the I'm sorry confession, could be a crypto request for terms of atonement.
So, you would hope the transwoman could give you terms by which you could demonstrate your sorry-hood for her suffering due to the school decision with which you agree?
This one makes not so much sense. I mean, if you are sympathizing with an object of a decision - you are sorry that the consequences are such - isn't that to say you find that decision harsh in some way? It is possible, I'm not saying it's a contradiction, but, you are saying this situation is like saying to your friend, "I feel for you but this is the right thing to do?" But that's not quite right. "sympathize" would work, but sympathize is not sorry. Sorry means something wrong happened. So if something wrong happened, but you agree with it... what is going on there?
This could just be me not understanding something, language is confusing for me pathologically, but, it would help to see an explanation of this, and it ought to help if maybe two other people could just add that what you said as you said it does and did make sense.
You've never heard someone say "I'm sorry you feel that way"?
The school is right. But someone probably still had their feelings hurt by the decision. I agree with the school, but I am sorry that someone was hurt even though it was the right decision.
If you were born with a ***** you can't go into the girls locker room.
I know. A trans girl (i.e. born a girl) is a girl still.
I don't know if it's an honest mistake on your part or not, but "trans woman" refers to a woman born with a predominantly masculine body yet with feminine brain structure and a female gender identity.
Didn't you already try to say this in a different thread and weren't able to prove it?
I said it in another thread and backed it up with a staggering number of peer-reviewed papers.
If you were born with a ***** you can't go into the girls locker room.
But this person (who was born with a ******) should be going into the women's locker room or something? Personally, I think that's a bit more objectionable than letting someone who looks like this going into the women's room.
Edit to explain since the first version got quoted: First trans man I linked was accidentally a picture of a cis guy in an article about trans men or something like that. Blame GIS and my inability to read.
I don't know if it's an honest mistake on your part or not, but "trans woman" refers to a woman born with a predominantly masculine body yet with feminine brain structure and a female gender identity.
Maybe it's because I don't distinguish gender and sex, but I consider what you were born as to be what you always are.
But(who was, in fact, born with a ******) (second note for those at work: shirtless guy, take whatever precautions you like) should be going into the women's locker room or something? Personally, I think that's a bit more objectionable than letting someone who looks like going into the women's room.
Those people could probably make it in without anyone noticing. But personally if it were up to me official policy would be that you go in whatever locker room you have the genitals for.
A factually incorrect approach, as gender and sex are two very different things.
Those people could probably make it in without anyone noticing. But personally if it were up to me official policy would be that you go in whatever locker room you have the genitals for.
Many trans people who are presenting as their target gender can make it in without anyone noticing. It's not like "trans woman" inherently means "40+ year old in a bad dress and gaudy makeup and looks like a dude" or something.
So, again, you're saying that if it were up to you, policy would say this person uses the women's room and this person uses the men's room, right?
You are wrong, as are "most people". The majority can be wrong, contrary to popular belief. (LOLOLOL)
If you cannot understand that you (EDIT: and apparently mystery) are simply mistaken and will not allow your arrogance to be set aside to become educated on the reality of gender variance, then you really should understand when we ignore your ignorant opinion.
Outward appearance does not determine gender. Just because you look like a guy does not make you sexually a man.
And thus you inadvertently stumble across the difference between sex and gender. Unfortunately, you're still missing the point. Someone's genitals have precisely zero impact on how you interact with them. I strongly doubt you ask people to pull down their pants when you first meet them just so you can establish proper pronouns. What matters here is one's gender presentation. If someone looks, sounds, and acts like a woman, you treat them like a woman, regardless whether they have a ***** or a ******—you don't see these genitals, so why should they matter?
Edit:
You are wrong, as are "most people". The majority can be wrong, contrary to popular belief.
If majority opinion truly shaped reality, then at one point the earth was flat with the sun orbiting it, then later on it became round and started orbiting the sun.
You are wrong, as are "most people". The majority can be wrong, contrary to popular belief. (LOLOLOL)
If you cannot understand that you (EDIT: and apparently mystery) are simply mistaken and will not allow your arrogance to be set aside to become educated on the reality of gender variance, then you really should understand when we ignore your ignorant opinion.
I highly question calling someone ignorant when it seems you have failed to read the article itself.
this has nothing to do with gender variance's. What it has to do with is a kid that constantly breaks the dress code rules of the school that he attends. evidently he does it on purpose and his mother encourages it so i don't know which is worse.
What it has to do is him making a bet with his mother, and then uses the school as the test site for his bet. This could have been done in public or somewhere else other than school. of course then it wouldn't have caused such a big deal or probably made the newspaper.
The kid was making a scene and causing a distraction among his classmates not for the first time either according to the article. he has been sent home from school before because of the same thing.
The school had enough of him doing this sort of thing and suspended him.
so please refrain from calling other people ignorant when you don't understand what the arguement really is about. someone on this thread has derailed it into something that it isn't.
If someone looks, sounds, and acts like a woman, you treat them like a woman, regardless whether they have a ***** or a ******—you don't see these genitals, so why should they matter?
I highly doubt to many men would feel comfortable having a women walk in a bathroom just as many women would feel uncomfortable having a man walk into theirs.
if you want to place yourself into a social awkard situation or catagory that is fine you shouldn't expect society to cater to you and your choices.
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I highly doubt to many men would feel comfortable having a women walk in a bathroom just as many women would feel uncomfortable having a man walk into theirs.
Well, for something like the third time, I think there'd be a lot more uncomfortable feelings all around if this person went into the women's room, despite that this person does indeed have a ******.
Well, for something like the third time, I think there'd be a lot more uncomfortable feelings all around if this person went into the women's room, despite that this person does indeed have a ******.
as i said you want to live outside of the bell curve of society that is your choice you shouldn't however expect society to cater to you.
the fact remains that it is a women and they need to use the appropriate facilities provided for them.
I do not want a women in the men's bathroom neither do most other guys. just as women do not want men in their bathroom. that is why we have designated separate places for each more so in a public setting.
again however this has nothing really to do with the topic that is being discussed and the last i will speak on it. nice derail though.
this kid has broken the rules multiple times and for the school this was the last straw. maybe him and his mother will grow up a bit and start acting like adults. needless to say the rest of society will expect him to later on in life if he wants to get anywhere. He isn't going to be able to wear what he wants when he gets a job. he will have to follow the dress code. if he doesn't then well it will be on him and no one else. poor lessons from his mother doesn't help the matter.
You've never heard someone say "I'm sorry you feel that way"?
Not in person, no. My principal experience with hearing it pronounced is in films. Other than that, it's when it is written - as I am dealing with right here.
The school is right. But someone probably still had their feelings hurt by the decision. I agree with the school, but I am sorry that someone was hurt even though it was the right decision.
I'm... kind of annoyed that you've gone to talking about the actual case, when we were discussing a 'would' in some trans woman scenario, but, I suppose that's my fault ultimately for not taking more care. I'd hoped you'd meet me halfway.
It would actually be more like if you (presumably a male) ran for prom king and instead was told by the school you were not allowed to and were instead voted prom queen.
That's what it feels like to a transwoman who is told she can only be voted for prom king.
So I'm confused to whom this is written:
If you were born with a ***** you can't go into the girls locker room.
*~*~*~
The question is what is the principled distinction between this boy going into class in a dress, removing it after school and putting on pants; and this boy going into school with a stylized monochrome bright patchwork leggings meeting the dress code, and then discarding it after school and putting on pants? Assuming he had behaved himself (e.g. assiduously rebuffed any sideways glances from other students).
But I think, due to the actual story, and doubts that can be raised about his disruptiveness and the details actual school officials could be going with, that this thread needs to finish up. Transsexuality - or ... what would this be called, chauvinism? The thing with the dress being bad, but a woman hypothetically wearing man's clothes being not so bad? That. - can come to the fore when an issue actually about either one happens.
@mystery45: Did you just imply that the person depicted there with a beard and a ****** has made choices relating to the sum?
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Well, for something like the third time, I think there'd be a lot more uncomfortable feelings all around if this person went into the women's room, despite that this person does indeed have a ******.
That guy is really hot.
Now to contribute something of worth to the discussion:
I really hate sex-separated housing/showers/bathrooms. Separate facilities were supposed to eliminate people watching others for sexual pleasure. This was only thought to work because when this was invented, everyone was "straight" (and by that I mean no one was openly gay, or an extremely small minority). Of course, now anyone in such a setting could be watching you, so it's really ineffective. It's only slightly effective because a lot of society is heterosexual (supposedly). Basically, my problem with sex-separated facilities is that they are ineffective at creating privacy. Which is pretty much their point. I'm of the opinion that individual bathrooms are more effective at this, though more costly.
I don't get why you are arguing about letting a woman in a man's bathroom when privacy-wise, it's just the same as a gay guy going in.
Sorry if I'm ranting, but the one thing that pisses me off, pretty much the only thing, is people treating trans people badly, simply because their trans.
Now to contribute something of worth to the discussion:
I really hate sex-separated housing/showers/bathrooms. Separate facilities were supposed to eliminate people watching others for sexual pleasure. This was only thought to work because when this was invented, everyone was "straight" (and by that I mean no one was openly gay, or an extremely small minority). Of course, now anyone in such a setting could be watching you, so it's really ineffective. It's only slightly effective because a lot of society is heterosexual (supposedly). Basically, my problem with sex-separated facilities is that they are ineffective at creating privacy. Which is pretty much their point. I'm of the opinion that individual bathrooms are more effective at this, though more costly.
I don't get why you are arguing about letting a woman in a man's bathroom when privacy-wise, it's just the same as a gay guy going in.
Sorry if I'm ranting, but the one thing that pisses me off, pretty much the only thing, is people treating trans people badly, simply because their trans.
I want to pretend that a woman's butt exists for purely aesthetic reasons.
Also, don't women commonly go to the women's room to talk?
The facts are:
the majority of individuals are heterosexuals
the majority of heterosexual individuals would prefer having separated bathrooms.
The majority gets what it wants in this case. The same applies to the common usage of words. If the common usage of "sex" or "gender" is the same, then the world just doesn't care that you and a small minority of people think that they are different. That is how language works. If the vast majority of individuals considered double negatives within the english language acceptable, then they would be.
Language is ruled by the masses. Remember that.
Also, kid deserved to get suspended. He was clearly attempting to be disruptive and grab attention. Intentional disruptiong of the learning process deserves a suspension. Their probably is a line in the student handbook that has a catch-all line stating that disruption to the classroom environment can result in disciplinary action.
Also, if someone has a ******, she uses the women's restroom. I dont care if she has a beard and wants to think of herself as a dude.
If someone has a *****, they use the men's restroom. End of story.
Did you just imply that the person depicted there with a beard and a ****** has made choices relating to the sum?
we have things called razors. they are used to cut hair off of our faces. my wife actually gets onto me about not using one all the time.
personal choices are important and affect your daily life. they can seek medical help for their issue as well. obviously they have some chemical imbalances in their system that can be addressed if they want to. they are still female and no wishing or wanting otherwise will make them any different.
of course that really isn't the point of this topic or discussion it is just a distraction from what the OP was really about.
yet for some reason no one actually wants to address that issue.
the kid did it to cause a distraction. he has gotten in trouble before for the same types of things. it even says it in the article.
Their probably is a line in the student handbook that has a catch-all line stating that disruption to the classroom environment can result in disciplinary action.
I the majority of heterosexual individuals would prefer having separated bathrooms.
Wait, what, why? I'm not going to say I agree with everything landmage said [my opinion as to the asthetic pleasure of the pictured person, for instance], but I'm heterosexual and I personally don't care who's using the same bathroom that I am. Otherwise, I'd have women visiting my house use a different bathroom. The only reason I can see to have different bathrooms is to, well, to keep a person in whom your sexually interested from hearing you.. and that is not the bathroom's fault.
Wait, what, why? I'm not going to say I agree with everything landmage said [my opinion as to the asthetic pleasure of the pictured person, for instance], but I'm heterosexual and I personally don't care who's using the same bathroom that I am. Otherwise, I'd have women visiting my house use a different bathroom. The only reason I can see to have different bathrooms is to, well, to keep a person in whom your sexually interested from hearing you.. and that is not the bathroom's fault.
this mostly goes for public restrooms not private ones in your home.
it is a safety concern usually hence why there are separate restrooms.
most women don't want strange ment they don't know coming into a bathroom. i really don't blame them. just as i don't want strange women i don't know coming into the men's bathroom.
all it takes is one accusation and well your life can be ruined.
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this mostly goes for public restrooms not private ones in your home.
it is a safety concern usually hence why there are separate restrooms.
most women don't want strange ment they don't know coming into a bathroom. i really don't blame them. just as i don't want strange women i don't know coming into the men's bathroom.
all it takes is one accusation and well your life can be ruined.
I have been waiting for this to pop up on a news story. A man dressed as a woman messing with a real woman in the bathroom. I wouldn't be surprised if this hasn't already happened but...as soon as it does...I imagine this will become a real issue.
the fact remains that it is a women and they need to use the appropriate facilities provided for them.
Even if doing so would cause quite a commotion? I mean, if he walked into the men's room, stepped into a stall, closed the door, and went about his business, there'd be no trouble at all. Unless someone like you spies on him to make sure he really has a *****, and blows the whistle on him when you find he doesn't. But for almost everyone, the man's genital situation doesn't matter as much as the rest of him.
I want to pretend that a woman's butt exists for purely aesthetic reasons.
Well if you really want to get into evo psych, then you could make a case for that, but I'm definitely not going to go there.
Also, don't women commonly go to the women's room to talk?
Supposedly. It's not something I personally do, though, so any personal experiences for backing that up will have to come from someone else.
Also, if someone has a ******, she uses the women's restroom. I dont care if she has a beard and wants to think of herself as a dude.
If someone has a *****, they use the men's restroom. End of story.
I find it interesting how so far we've got two men in this thread saying they'd gladly send a trans man into the women's room, yet no women (aside from me, and I'm hardly impartial) who'd say, "Send him in here with us."
And you'd really be comfortable in the men's room if this person walked in and started fixing her makeup or whatever?
they can seek medical help for their issue as well. obviously they have some chemical imbalances in their system that can be addressed if they want to. they are still female and no wishing or wanting otherwise will make them any different.
On the contrary, science has shown that trans men are (at least in terms of encephalic sex) male, and no wishing or wanting otherwise from you is going to change that. And regardless, you still aren't genital-checking everyone you meet, so why make a big deal out of parts you're never going to see?
Edit:
I have been waiting for this to pop up on a news story. A man dressed as a woman messing with a real woman in the bathroom. I wouldn't be surprised if this hasn't already happened but...as soon as it does...I imagine this will become a real issue.
I'm going to pretend you meant a cis male transvestite there rather than a trans woman (trust me, it's better for the thread if I do that), in which case you'll be waiting a while, because those things just don't happen often enough to be relevant to anything. And even if it does happen in a high-profile manner, so what? Policies enacted that would primarily harm an already oppressed minority? It'd be like a guy robbing a store in blackface, then suddenly people arguing for the Jim Crow laws again.
this mostly goes for public restrooms not private ones in your home.
it is a safety concern usually hence why there are separate restrooms.
most women don't want strange ment they don't know coming into a bathroom. i really don't blame them. just as i don't want strange women i don't know coming into the men's bathroom.
all it takes is one accusation and well your life can be ruined.
A clarification: I am assuming here that a public restroom has closing separate stalls with locking mechanisms.
I guess I don't understand the difference between a public bathroom and any other public area or building. Being on a sparsely populated beach, in a laundromat, or in my office is just as much of a dangerous situation as being in a restroom; nor do I think that you're entirely safe just because nobody in the same room is going to be of the opposite sex and/or considering you sexually. If anything, I'd think that in a danger situation I'd want as many people as possible having the chance to come in and break it up.
If it's more of a sanitary concern when, well, when I sprinkle when I tinkle, then I think it's high time public bathrooms were more generously accomodated to stop that sort of thing with sanitizing wipes and such.
On the OP's main topic: I had a male friend in high school who wore a kilt to class about once a month just for the shock value. They never got in a lick of trouble for it. I'm still trying to figure out if that was because A) the rules about schoolwear were more lax 15 years ago (*sigh*), B) kilts were that much different from skirts and they didn't have a legal abilty to enforce it, or C) they were just too lazy to do anything about it.
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No. I still agree with the school. But I am sorry that someone (the transsexual being affected by it) would have to feel that way.
The key term is "women with boyish figures," and it still looks weird on a man because a woman's body is still contoured differently than a man's. I really don't care about the exceptions with castrati and ect. In aggregate, women's clothing look ill fitting on men.
Notice in this picture the contours:
http://cache.dealbreaker.com/uploads/2011/01/fat-homer-simpson-moo-moo.gif
Versus what the boy had, his looks ill fitting. I can just as easily find someone such as Homer Simpson that can pull off a fetching dress.
I sort of agree with the suspension, he should have picked a more fetching attire.
I'll more seriously address the rest.
The smarter people that dealt with black market activities tried to not raise attention to themselves by dressing normally. Gangs equally also develop other symbolism, so the hat bannings never really do much in aggregate unless if there's a larger policy on dress such as school uniforms. The only places that use this excuse are white middle class school districts without other anti-gang stuff.
People also hid drugs in their hats and money, money being the more operative of the two because of pick pockets. Drugs typically in lockers, nondescript items such as a box, hidden pockets, and some more "creative" places. Drugs from what I noticed were mostly hidden in hidden jacket pockets, since it was easier to pull off an illegal trade and have a larger store of substances.
The eye thing I consider more of a teacher-student relationship problem or a more general issue with that student and school culture. If people aren't serious about school, they'll find a way to sleep or not pay attention.
I mean you could argue for school uniforms and there have been studies show they are effective in purging bullying, gang issues, and ect. Which again provides a different context to allow for a "male skirted uniform" to be created. His dress did look stupid on him, unlike more traditional forms of male dress. I mean you whites do have enough Scots running around, someone has to be able to design a fetching dress for a man.
It also makes for interesting head games with employees you want to get rid of. My main problem though is with summer, a lot of the typical business attire is not really conditioned for warm weather. Older attire for men in the States was adjusted to be of lighter materials and colors, however it still doesn't make much sense to not invent some new lighter clothing for summer that look professional.
Even Japan in the wake of the energy crisis there has mandated people not wears and the like to keep down cooling costs. It is an untapped market for business attire, but requires readjustment in how we define dress codes.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
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Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Agreed that intent does not matter. But matters of evidence (schools word vs the students word) are not relevant to the boys defence either. Moreover, matters of time period are not relevant to the boys defence.
The proper defence of the boy is as follows: The boy wears a dress, other children are disruptive in class because the boy is wearing a dress. It is the other student being disruptive - not the boy. He can not reasonably be held responsible for their reaction to his style of dress. He can not be held accountable for the actions of others.
But agreed, the boy should not be sanctioned at all for wearing a style of clothing
But history has shown that you wont always expand on questions raised about your posts. I have personal experience of this.
Foreigner
You colonization of language is not appreciated.
Oh, I agree, a guy shouldn't be voted prom queen. Thing is, a trans girl isn't a guy. She might have a masculine body, but she's still a girl. The difference between trans women and you throwing on a dress is the difference between any other woman and you throwing on a dress. Even if you want to get into the "well, we're both starting out with masculine bodies" argument, you're still not in the same league because I highly doubt you're willing to present as a woman every single day and endure massive amounts of therapy just to "prove" to a gatekeeping medical establishment that you're serious about your identity. I doubt you've got feminine brain structure and possibly other physical conditions driving you towards a female identity.
Except that it is, because it's nonsense like this that gives bigots ammo to use in other situations.
HRT is something like 50% covered. SRS is covered but you need to provide your own fare to Montreal. Everything else is paid out of pocket.
Still miles better than America, though.
Yes, and in doing so he's giving people even more ammo to use against gender-variant MAAB people. Which segues nicely into:
As far as bigots are concerned, there's zero difference between this guy and some trans girl who simply wants to express her gender identity. I'm not saying I agree with what the kid in the OP did. While I agree with his right to express himself, and I believe "boy in a dress is offensive" is the root of the issue, it doesn't change that what he's doing isn't anywhere near so noble.
Well, when you've got female brain structure and your internal gender identity is female regardless of any attempt to change or bury it, and you experience great distress presenting to the world as male, when literally the only thing you want in the entire world is to be treated like any other woman, it's... unpleasant (to say the least) when you're treated like a guy who's either mentally ill or a sexual deviant.
Like the guy said, imagine you personally were told you could only run for the "wrong" title. And (presuming you're male) that you could only go to prom in a dress. And no one ever refers to you or treats you as male. Ever.
But what does that mean? You are apologetic. It suggests that there is atonement which could be made. Yes, not often is attention given to the possibility of atoning but I claim it as a rule: If there is apology, then there can be Just atonement. Something you do which renews and repays all transgression is the idea (keeping in mind that it could only repair a relationship between the atoner and the one atoned to; it can't make right any wrongdoing done outside those two parties).
Sorry-hood, or rather, the I'm sorry confession, could be a crypto request for terms of atonement.
So, you would hope the transwoman could give you terms by which you could demonstrate your sorry-hood for her suffering due to the school decision with which you agree?
This one makes not so much sense. I mean, if you are sympathizing with an object of a decision - you are sorry that the consequences are such - isn't that to say you find that decision harsh in some way? It is possible, I'm not saying it's a contradiction, but, you are saying this situation is like saying to your friend, "I feel for you but this is the right thing to do?" But that's not quite right. "sympathize" would work, but sympathize is not sorry. Sorry means something wrong happened. So if something wrong happened, but you agree with it... what is going on there?
This could just be me not understanding something, language is confusing for me pathologically, but, it would help to see an explanation of this, and it ought to help if maybe two other people could just add that what you said as you said it does and did make sense.
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I know. A trans girl (i.e. born a girl) is a girl still.
They might think they are a girl, but they have a *****.
Didn't you already try to say this in a different thread and weren't able to prove it?
You've never heard someone say "I'm sorry you feel that way"?
The school is right. But someone probably still had their feelings hurt by the decision. I agree with the school, but I am sorry that someone was hurt even though it was the right decision.
If you were born with a ***** you can't go into the girls locker room.
I don't know if it's an honest mistake on your part or not, but "trans woman" refers to a woman born with a predominantly masculine body yet with feminine brain structure and a female gender identity.
I said it in another thread and backed it up with a staggering number of peer-reviewed papers.
But this person (who was born with a ******) should be going into the women's locker room or something? Personally, I think that's a bit more objectionable than letting someone who looks like this going into the women's room.
Edit to explain since the first version got quoted: First trans man I linked was accidentally a picture of a cis guy in an article about trans men or something like that. Blame GIS and my inability to read.
Maybe it's because I don't distinguish gender and sex, but I consider what you were born as to be what you always are.
Those people could probably make it in without anyone noticing. But personally if it were up to me official policy would be that you go in whatever locker room you have the genitals for.
A factually incorrect approach, as gender and sex are two very different things.
Many trans people who are presenting as their target gender can make it in without anyone noticing. It's not like "trans woman" inherently means "40+ year old in a bad dress and gaudy makeup and looks like a dude" or something.
So, again, you're saying that if it were up to you, policy would say this person uses the women's room and this person uses the men's room, right?
Not to most people.
Outward appearance does not determine gender. Just because you look like a guy does not make you sexually a man.
My answer is yes.
i agree, and i think there are some irrelevent points being brought up not by you but by other people.
This is simply a case of a school having enough of these types of antics. i agree with the school. he had been warned enough and corrected enough.
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You are wrong, as are "most people". The majority can be wrong, contrary to popular belief. (LOLOLOL)
If you cannot understand that you (EDIT: and apparently mystery) are simply mistaken and will not allow your arrogance to be set aside to become educated on the reality of gender variance, then you really should understand when we ignore your ignorant opinion.
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And thus you inadvertently stumble across the difference between sex and gender. Unfortunately, you're still missing the point. Someone's genitals have precisely zero impact on how you interact with them. I strongly doubt you ask people to pull down their pants when you first meet them just so you can establish proper pronouns. What matters here is one's gender presentation. If someone looks, sounds, and acts like a woman, you treat them like a woman, regardless whether they have a ***** or a ******—you don't see these genitals, so why should they matter?
Edit:
If majority opinion truly shaped reality, then at one point the earth was flat with the sun orbiting it, then later on it became round and started orbiting the sun.
I highly question calling someone ignorant when it seems you have failed to read the article itself.
this has nothing to do with gender variance's. What it has to do with is a kid that constantly breaks the dress code rules of the school that he attends. evidently he does it on purpose and his mother encourages it so i don't know which is worse.
What it has to do is him making a bet with his mother, and then uses the school as the test site for his bet. This could have been done in public or somewhere else other than school. of course then it wouldn't have caused such a big deal or probably made the newspaper.
The kid was making a scene and causing a distraction among his classmates not for the first time either according to the article. he has been sent home from school before because of the same thing.
The school had enough of him doing this sort of thing and suspended him.
so please refrain from calling other people ignorant when you don't understand what the arguement really is about. someone on this thread has derailed it into something that it isn't.
I highly doubt to many men would feel comfortable having a women walk in a bathroom just as many women would feel uncomfortable having a man walk into theirs.
if you want to place yourself into a social awkard situation or catagory that is fine you shouldn't expect society to cater to you and your choices.
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Well, for something like the third time, I think there'd be a lot more uncomfortable feelings all around if this person went into the women's room, despite that this person does indeed have a ******.
as i said you want to live outside of the bell curve of society that is your choice you shouldn't however expect society to cater to you.
the fact remains that it is a women and they need to use the appropriate facilities provided for them.
I do not want a women in the men's bathroom neither do most other guys. just as women do not want men in their bathroom. that is why we have designated separate places for each more so in a public setting.
again however this has nothing really to do with the topic that is being discussed and the last i will speak on it. nice derail though.
this kid has broken the rules multiple times and for the school this was the last straw. maybe him and his mother will grow up a bit and start acting like adults. needless to say the rest of society will expect him to later on in life if he wants to get anywhere. He isn't going to be able to wear what he wants when he gets a job. he will have to follow the dress code. if he doesn't then well it will be on him and no one else. poor lessons from his mother doesn't help the matter.
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Not in person, no. My principal experience with hearing it pronounced is in films. Other than that, it's when it is written - as I am dealing with right here.
I'm... kind of annoyed that you've gone to talking about the actual case, when we were discussing a 'would' in some trans woman scenario, but, I suppose that's my fault ultimately for not taking more care. I'd hoped you'd meet me halfway.
This is what it was, by the way:
So I'm confused to whom this is written:
*~*~*~
The question is what is the principled distinction between this boy going into class in a dress, removing it after school and putting on pants; and this boy going into school with a stylized monochrome bright patchwork leggings meeting the dress code, and then discarding it after school and putting on pants? Assuming he had behaved himself (e.g. assiduously rebuffed any sideways glances from other students).
But I think, due to the actual story, and doubts that can be raised about his disruptiveness and the details actual school officials could be going with, that this thread needs to finish up. Transsexuality - or ... what would this be called, chauvinism? The thing with the dress being bad, but a woman hypothetically wearing man's clothes being not so bad? That. - can come to the fore when an issue actually about either one happens.
@mystery45: Did you just imply that the person depicted there with a beard and a ****** has made choices relating to the sum?
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That guy is really hot.
Now to contribute something of worth to the discussion:
I really hate sex-separated housing/showers/bathrooms. Separate facilities were supposed to eliminate people watching others for sexual pleasure. This was only thought to work because when this was invented, everyone was "straight" (and by that I mean no one was openly gay, or an extremely small minority). Of course, now anyone in such a setting could be watching you, so it's really ineffective. It's only slightly effective because a lot of society is heterosexual (supposedly). Basically, my problem with sex-separated facilities is that they are ineffective at creating privacy. Which is pretty much their point. I'm of the opinion that individual bathrooms are more effective at this, though more costly.
I don't get why you are arguing about letting a woman in a man's bathroom when privacy-wise, it's just the same as a gay guy going in.
Sorry if I'm ranting, but the one thing that pisses me off, pretty much the only thing, is people treating trans people badly, simply because their trans.
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I want to pretend that a woman's butt exists for purely aesthetic reasons.
Also, don't women commonly go to the women's room to talk?
The facts are:
the majority of individuals are heterosexuals
the majority of heterosexual individuals would prefer having separated bathrooms.
The majority gets what it wants in this case. The same applies to the common usage of words. If the common usage of "sex" or "gender" is the same, then the world just doesn't care that you and a small minority of people think that they are different. That is how language works. If the vast majority of individuals considered double negatives within the english language acceptable, then they would be.
Language is ruled by the masses. Remember that.
Also, kid deserved to get suspended. He was clearly attempting to be disruptive and grab attention. Intentional disruptiong of the learning process deserves a suspension. Their probably is a line in the student handbook that has a catch-all line stating that disruption to the classroom environment can result in disciplinary action.
Also, if someone has a ******, she uses the women's restroom. I dont care if she has a beard and wants to think of herself as a dude.
If someone has a *****, they use the men's restroom. End of story.
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we have things called razors. they are used to cut hair off of our faces. my wife actually gets onto me about not using one all the time.
personal choices are important and affect your daily life. they can seek medical help for their issue as well. obviously they have some chemical imbalances in their system that can be addressed if they want to. they are still female and no wishing or wanting otherwise will make them any different.
of course that really isn't the point of this topic or discussion it is just a distraction from what the OP was really about.
yet for some reason no one actually wants to address that issue.
the kid did it to cause a distraction. he has gotten in trouble before for the same types of things. it even says it in the article.
most schools do.
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Wait, what, why? I'm not going to say I agree with everything landmage said [my opinion as to the asthetic pleasure of the pictured person, for instance], but I'm heterosexual and I personally don't care who's using the same bathroom that I am. Otherwise, I'd have women visiting my house use a different bathroom. The only reason I can see to have different bathrooms is to, well, to keep a person in whom your sexually interested from hearing you.. and that is not the bathroom's fault.
this mostly goes for public restrooms not private ones in your home.
it is a safety concern usually hence why there are separate restrooms.
most women don't want strange ment they don't know coming into a bathroom. i really don't blame them. just as i don't want strange women i don't know coming into the men's bathroom.
all it takes is one accusation and well your life can be ruined.
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Even if doing so would cause quite a commotion? I mean, if he walked into the men's room, stepped into a stall, closed the door, and went about his business, there'd be no trouble at all. Unless someone like you spies on him to make sure he really has a *****, and blows the whistle on him when you find he doesn't. But for almost everyone, the man's genital situation doesn't matter as much as the rest of him.
Well if you really want to get into evo psych, then you could make a case for that, but I'm definitely not going to go there.
Supposedly. It's not something I personally do, though, so any personal experiences for backing that up will have to come from someone else.
I find it interesting how so far we've got two men in this thread saying they'd gladly send a trans man into the women's room, yet no women (aside from me, and I'm hardly impartial) who'd say, "Send him in here with us."
And you'd really be comfortable in the men's room if this person walked in and started fixing her makeup or whatever?
On the contrary, science has shown that trans men are (at least in terms of encephalic sex) male, and no wishing or wanting otherwise from you is going to change that. And regardless, you still aren't genital-checking everyone you meet, so why make a big deal out of parts you're never going to see?
Edit:
I'm going to pretend you meant a cis male transvestite there rather than a trans woman (trust me, it's better for the thread if I do that), in which case you'll be waiting a while, because those things just don't happen often enough to be relevant to anything. And even if it does happen in a high-profile manner, so what? Policies enacted that would primarily harm an already oppressed minority? It'd be like a guy robbing a store in blackface, then suddenly people arguing for the Jim Crow laws again.
A clarification: I am assuming here that a public restroom has closing separate stalls with locking mechanisms.
I guess I don't understand the difference between a public bathroom and any other public area or building. Being on a sparsely populated beach, in a laundromat, or in my office is just as much of a dangerous situation as being in a restroom; nor do I think that you're entirely safe just because nobody in the same room is going to be of the opposite sex and/or considering you sexually. If anything, I'd think that in a danger situation I'd want as many people as possible having the chance to come in and break it up.
If it's more of a sanitary concern when, well, when I sprinkle when I tinkle, then I think it's high time public bathrooms were more generously accomodated to stop that sort of thing with sanitizing wipes and such.
On the OP's main topic: I had a male friend in high school who wore a kilt to class about once a month just for the shock value. They never got in a lick of trouble for it. I'm still trying to figure out if that was because A) the rules about schoolwear were more lax 15 years ago (*sigh*), B) kilts were that much different from skirts and they didn't have a legal abilty to enforce it, or C) they were just too lazy to do anything about it.