Try teaching a class with a girl not wearing a bra and a white t-shirt with her nipples poking out where the males are trying to catch a glimpse of her chest.
Back when I was in high school, you were lucky if that's all someone tried to get away with. And I admit, it was a bit distracting, but it never made me totally lose focus or someth—
Coupled with it's well known that attire does detract male thought patterns.
That's probably why, then. Either way, this isn't what the thread's about.
Further, dresses aren't even contoured to a man's body and frankly look like **** and ill fitting.
Not all masculine bodies follow the wide-shouldered-narrow-hipped V figure. Not all feminine bodies are perfect hourglasses. There are dresses for women with boyish figures.
The other aspect of "women wearing men's clothes" is that putting a woman in man's clothes are often ill fitting
This isn't really related to much, but I own a lot of men's t-shirts. They're comfortable when I want to wear something a bit on the roomy side.
The dress looks like **** on him because it's not cut for his body type, it looks odd on him not only sociologically but because of angles and measure.
I'll agree that the dress could've fit his body better, but ill-fitting clothes aren't a reason to suspend someone.
In the past thread, men were less likely to pick up feminine toys where as women were more likely to pick up on both feminine and masculine toys. This again shows a predisposition where the male is less likely to copy the female, and the male is more likely to copy other males.
The studies went a bit deeper than that, and regardless they don't explain fashion choices. Remember, at one time it was perfectly normal for boys to have long hair and wear dresses. Now a boy in a dress is considered worthy of suspension from school. And it still doesn't counter the whole "being male is considered better than being female" thing.
Now a boy in a dress trying to be disruptive is considered worthy of suspension from school.
fix'd
Stop distorting events to fit your persecution complex.
Please do not alter people's quotes. This is both disrespectful and also a problem for tracking back people's arguments. Plus I could easily interpret it as plagiarism. You're breaking the rules all over the place. - Harkius
Stop distorting events to fit your persecution complex.
Because no one's ever used flimsy pretenses like "being disruptive" to kick, say, trans girls out of class, right? (Which actually is persecution when it happens.) I don't care if the class doesn't like the idea of a boy in a dress. That's their problem, not his. They need to learn to accept it.
This is like those "girl wants to go to prom in a tux" or "trans girl becomes homecoming queen" ****storms. People get all twisted out of shape over trivial stuff that challenges their preconceptions of gender and act as if the people acting in a gender-variant fashion are what's the blame rather than their own bigotry.
Because no one's ever used flimsy pretenses like "being disruptive" to kick, say, trans girls out of class, right? (Which actually is persecution when it happens.) I don't care if the class doesn't like the idea of a boy in a dress. That's their problem, not his. They need to learn to accept it.
Or they could live in the real world and punish disruptive 15 year olds.
Or they could live in the real world and punish disruptive 15 year olds.
"Disruptive" being a buzzword meaning a combination of "not normal" and "we don't personally like it." It's the same kind of logic that leads gay students to be disciplined if they so much as mention their orientation, yet straight students can talk about their orientation as openly as they please. The whole "this is disruptive" thing is entirely a refusal to adapt to anything that breaks a narrow conception of normative gender values, which is unacceptable.
Can you work with that statement?
I can work with the statement that they're two different things, but I can't back treating them any differently solely because of the opportunity for abuse it offers bigoted school officials.
"Disruptive" being a buzzword meaning a combination of "not normal" and "we don't personally like it." It's the same kind of logic that leads gay students to be disciplined if they so much as mention their orientation, yet straight students can talk about their orientation as openly as they please. The whole "this is disruptive" thing is entirely a refusal to adapt to anything that breaks a narrow conception of normative gender values, which is unacceptable.
No, just the normal real world meaning of disruptive.
"Disruptive" would be a student acting out of order in class for attention, not wearing something people don't like.
No. Wearing a hat would be classified as disruptive. Not all behavior has to be blatant to be considered disruptive. But somehow to you, since your pet issue is gender, you ascribe some sort of deep seated bigotry to a case where a disruptive child was punished for being disruptive.
No. Wearing a hat would be classified as disruptive. Not all behavior has to be blatant to be considered disruptive. But somehow to you, since your pet issue is gender, you ascribe some sort of deep seated bigotry to a case where a disruptive child was punished for being disruptive.
Because having such rules in the books has demonstratably led to open bigotry by school officials (again, refer to the several cases of girls getting punished for wearing tuxedos to prom, or the case of the trans girl who was voted homecoming queen and had it overturned by school officials). Gender may be one of my main issues—something that's not entirely unwarranted, really—but that doesn't change the validity of what I'm saying.
Because having such rules in the books has demonstratably led to open bigotry by school officials (again, refer to the several cases of girls getting punished for wearing tuxedos to prom, or the case of the trans girl who was voted homecoming queen and had it overturned by school officials). Gender may be one of my main issues—something that's not entirely unwarranted, really—but that doesn't change the validity of what I'm saying.
I don't see an issue with wearing whatever to prom since it is not an academic function. But I'm not sure that I don't agree with the school not letting a guy being voted prom queen. Could I have thrown on a dress and had a bunch of my friends vote for me and ruin the prom king/queen thing? No.
Because having such rules in the books has demonstratably led to open bigotry by school officials (again, refer to the several cases of girls getting punished for wearing tuxedos to prom, or the case of the trans girl who was voted homecoming queen and had it overturned by school officials). Gender may be one of my main issues—something that's not entirely unwarranted, really—but that doesn't change the validity of what I'm saying.
We're talking about a situation in which he chose to be disruptive. In all similar situations, it is a given that the student will be ejected from class.
While I disagree with suspension, it is appropriate to maintain decorum in the classroom. So that people, can, you know, learn. It is a school after all, not a social experiment.
No matter what type of person you are, choice of clothing is always an option, never a compulsion. So if you make a choice that is disruptive, you will be removed from the classroom and you have no leg to stand on.
That's not true. What if I require certain kinds of clothing for medical reasons?
Besides, those minorities can just go to a different school.
The only reason I can find something immaterial as wearing a hat disruptive is if the person wore hat that represented a buzzword or something similar in fashion. For instance, one is a sports buff and loves the Chicago Bears and another wears a Green Bay Packers hat. In reality wearing the hat would be a test to see how educated a person was to ignore a "disruption" from the hat. As Martin Luther King pointed out "Intelligence plus character-that is the goal of true education." Teach others to not be bothered by the hat, it is only fabric. Or as Mahatma Gandhi said "No one can hurt you without your permission."
The only reason I can find something immaterial as wearing a hat disruptive is if the person wore hat that represented a buzzword or something similar in fashion. For instance, one is a sports buff and loves the Chicago Bears and another wears a Green Bay Packers hat. In reality wearing the hat would be a test to see how educated a person was to ignore a "disruption" from the hat. As Martin Luther King pointed out "Intelligence plus character-that is the goal of true education." Teach others to not be bothered by the hat, it is only fabric. Or as Mahatma Gandhi said "No one can hurt you without your permission."
Well, I don't know if there is a school in the country that allows hats to be worn in class so...
Well, I don't know if there is a school in the country that allows hats to be worn in class so...
But you understand the point though, yes? When I was in school we were not allowed to wear hats in Indiana either, and I always wondered why. I told them their reasoning of gang related incidences was a cop-out.
The only reason I can find something immaterial as wearing a hat disruptive is if the person wore hat that represented a buzzword or something similar in fashion
In many schools, the reason hats are banned is when gang members start using them as a way to identify each other by. That is a pretty tremendous reason to ban them.
Quote from zaphrasz »
That's not true. What if I require certain kinds of clothing for medical reasons?
Besides, those minorities can just go to a different school.
I don't know how it works in other states, but I'm almost positive it's the same as it is here. At the beginning of the school year, or, as soon as the condition presents itself, teachers are informed as to medical needs that differ from the norm and do everything in our human power to accommodate to the situation.
For example, if someone has diabetes we are informed as to the (general) severity of the condition and the appropriate allowances to make for that in order to ensure the student remains safe. (Does he/she need constant access to glucose tablets? Are there particular times when they will need to visit the school nurse? Etc.)
So while I'm not aware of any condition that would require one to wear potentially disruptive clothing, if there was one, we would figure out how best to handle the students needs and the needs of the classroom at large when the time is appropriate.
Since this is clearly not a case of need, I'm inclined to echo LogicX's snarky comments.
Quote from docpoppinz »
But you understand the point though, yes? When I was in school we were not allowed to wear hats in Indiana either, and I always wondered why. I told them their reasoning of gang related incidences was a cop-out.
While I've never witnessed a gang related fight personally, I've heard of specific cases where this does happen. Why is that a cop out? Sure there are other ways to signal as such, but taking away one of the clear markers which is in no way an important part of one's clothing (especially when inside) doesn't sound that bad at all.
Another issue with hats is the covering of the eyes and the resulting non-interaction and non-socialization.
But I'm not sure that I don't agree with the school not letting a guy being voted prom queen. Could I have thrown on a dress and had a bunch of my friends vote for me and ruin the prom king/queen thing? No.
It would actually be more like if you (presumably a male) ran for prom king and instead was told by the school you were not allowed to and were instead voted prom queen.
It would actually be more like if you (presumably a male) ran for prom king and instead was told by the school you were not allowed to and were instead voted prom queen.
Yeah, this, basically. To me, the intentions here do not really matter. If he wants to wear a dress, he should be allowed to, no matter what the reason.
Unless the reason is to purposefully cause disruption. Which the article seems to convey pretty clearly that the kid got punished, and the punishment makes him want to do it again and again. He likes the negative attention.
This is where Teia is getting lost. She is taking up the sword of gender equality in a debate where gender equality is not the issue. As far as we know this is not a 15 year old trans boy otherwise the article probably would of mentioned that for the extra punch it would of caused if this was meant to be a trans issue. He's just a normal 15 year old boy that likes to cause trouble. No rights to be protected here.
Canada does things differently than here in America, sadly. Same as the situation where in Canada, your healthcare covers trans operations and medicine. Here in America, it doesn't. So it's still an expensive procedure here.
"Disruptive" being a buzzword meaning a combination of "not normal" and "we don't personally like it."
You missed the part where the boy explicitly says that he wants to be even more outlandish and crazy because he was punished for it. He is being willfully disruptive, and the fact that his mother dared him to do it in the first place makes me believe these two are treating this more like an amusing game than an actual fight for gender identity and equality.
I reiterate, this isn't a gender confused person trying to find their way in the world and being persecuted for it. This is more similar to a frat boy wearing a dress and causing a scene by being overly outlandish. Your picking the wrong issue to fight here.
That's not true. What if I require certain kinds of clothing for medical reasons?
Show me any medical document in the history of man that says that your condition requires you to wear dresses and high heels to school for your own health. You won't find any.
"You're sorry X feels that way." I don't get it. You didn't make that person feel anything, or do anything to that person at all. That I know, when someone says this, at least they've done something to a person. The one other case is when you speak for another group, who (for some rational reason or not) you feel responsible and apologetic. You feel sorry, 'apologetic', for some other people, that they have done something or other to a person.
So... you are/would be apologetic that persons would tell a transwoman she can only be in the running for prom king. Okay. Sounds appropriate (if this kind of extended apologetic-hood ever makes sense). Does that mean the earlier comparison makes sense to you now?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Epic banner by Erasmus of æтђєг.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
People need to sit back a second and look at the story as a whole.
From what i saw and read in the story this isn't the first time this kid has been sent home for dress code violations. It seems to be a habitual problem with him and his mother.
Wearing hats and other such things that he isn't allowed to wear. If he wants to make a bet with his mom fine do it outside of school. to me he just seems that he is looking for attention of some kind.
the school was justified giving that he seems to be a repeat offender just trying to see what he can get away with.
Unless the reason is to purposefully cause disruption. Which the article seems to convey pretty clearly that the kid got punished, and the punishment makes him want to do it again and again. He likes the negative attention.
I agree with this. it seems it is all publicity nothing more.
what is sad is that his mother is encouraging this type of behavior in which he will pay for it down the road since well no one will hire him, or if he does get hired he will be fired.
my job has a strict dress code spelled out for both men and women and what they are suppose to wear. most professional businesses do. you either accept them and follow with others or you can be let go.
one guy that use to work here got written up all the time for wearing clothes outside of the dress code. needless to say along with some other events he doesn't work here anymore.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around. Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Back when I was in high school, you were lucky if that's all someone tried to get away with. And I admit, it was a bit distracting, but it never made me totally lose focus or someth—
That's probably why, then. Either way, this isn't what the thread's about.
Not all masculine bodies follow the wide-shouldered-narrow-hipped V figure. Not all feminine bodies are perfect hourglasses. There are dresses for women with boyish figures.
This isn't really related to much, but I own a lot of men's t-shirts. They're comfortable when I want to wear something a bit on the roomy side.
I'll agree that the dress could've fit his body better, but ill-fitting clothes aren't a reason to suspend someone.
The studies went a bit deeper than that, and regardless they don't explain fashion choices. Remember, at one time it was perfectly normal for boys to have long hair and wear dresses. Now a boy in a dress is considered worthy of suspension from school. And it still doesn't counter the whole "being male is considered better than being female" thing.
fix'd
Stop distorting events to fit your persecution complex.
Please do not alter people's quotes. This is both disrespectful and also a problem for tracking back people's arguments. Plus I could easily interpret it as plagiarism. You're breaking the rules all over the place. - Harkius
Because no one's ever used flimsy pretenses like "being disruptive" to kick, say, trans girls out of class, right? (Which actually is persecution when it happens.) I don't care if the class doesn't like the idea of a boy in a dress. That's their problem, not his. They need to learn to accept it.
This is like those "girl wants to go to prom in a tux" or "trans girl becomes homecoming queen" ****storms. People get all twisted out of shape over trivial stuff that challenges their preconceptions of gender and act as if the people acting in a gender-variant fashion are what's the blame rather than their own bigotry.
Or they could live in the real world and punish disruptive 15 year olds.
"Disruptive" being a buzzword meaning a combination of "not normal" and "we don't personally like it." It's the same kind of logic that leads gay students to be disciplined if they so much as mention their orientation, yet straight students can talk about their orientation as openly as they please. The whole "this is disruptive" thing is entirely a refusal to adapt to anything that breaks a narrow conception of normative gender values, which is unacceptable.
I can work with the statement that they're two different things, but I can't back treating them any differently solely because of the opportunity for abuse it offers bigoted school officials.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
No, just the normal real world meaning of disruptive.
"Disruptive" would be a student acting out of order in class for attention or something like that, not wearing something people don't like.
No. Wearing a hat would be classified as disruptive. Not all behavior has to be blatant to be considered disruptive. But somehow to you, since your pet issue is gender, you ascribe some sort of deep seated bigotry to a case where a disruptive child was punished for being disruptive.
Because having such rules in the books has demonstratably led to open bigotry by school officials (again, refer to the several cases of girls getting punished for wearing tuxedos to prom, or the case of the trans girl who was voted homecoming queen and had it overturned by school officials). Gender may be one of my main issues—something that's not entirely unwarranted, really—but that doesn't change the validity of what I'm saying.
I don't see an issue with wearing whatever to prom since it is not an academic function. But I'm not sure that I don't agree with the school not letting a guy being voted prom queen. Could I have thrown on a dress and had a bunch of my friends vote for me and ruin the prom king/queen thing? No.
We're talking about a situation in which he chose to be disruptive. In all similar situations, it is a given that the student will be ejected from class.
While I disagree with suspension, it is appropriate to maintain decorum in the classroom. So that people, can, you know, learn. It is a school after all, not a social experiment.
Besides, those minorities can just go to a different school.
Is this relevent or are you just being difficult on purpose?
Well, I don't know if there is a school in the country that allows hats to be worn in class so...
But you understand the point though, yes? When I was in school we were not allowed to wear hats in Indiana either, and I always wondered why. I told them their reasoning of gang related incidences was a cop-out.
In many schools, the reason hats are banned is when gang members start using them as a way to identify each other by. That is a pretty tremendous reason to ban them.
I don't know how it works in other states, but I'm almost positive it's the same as it is here. At the beginning of the school year, or, as soon as the condition presents itself, teachers are informed as to medical needs that differ from the norm and do everything in our human power to accommodate to the situation.
For example, if someone has diabetes we are informed as to the (general) severity of the condition and the appropriate allowances to make for that in order to ensure the student remains safe. (Does he/she need constant access to glucose tablets? Are there particular times when they will need to visit the school nurse? Etc.)
So while I'm not aware of any condition that would require one to wear potentially disruptive clothing, if there was one, we would figure out how best to handle the students needs and the needs of the classroom at large when the time is appropriate.
Since this is clearly not a case of need, I'm inclined to echo LogicX's snarky comments.
While I've never witnessed a gang related fight personally, I've heard of specific cases where this does happen. Why is that a cop out? Sure there are other ways to signal as such, but taking away one of the clear markers which is in no way an important part of one's clothing (especially when inside) doesn't sound that bad at all.
Another issue with hats is the covering of the eyes and the resulting non-interaction and non-socialization.
It would actually be more like if you (presumably a male) ran for prom king and instead was told by the school you were not allowed to and were instead voted prom queen.
:LEGACY:
XLEDed DredgeX
BTraitor's GateB
:EDH:
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
WRTrias, The Betrayer (Gisela)RW
BRWKaalia, of the VastWRB
Thanks to SushiOtter of Hakai Studios for the awesome banner, and Argetlam of Hakai Studios for the equally awesome avvie!
Generation 2556677: The first time you see this, add it to your sig, but add 1 to the number. Call it a social experiment.
I don't understand.
Unless the reason is to purposefully cause disruption. Which the article seems to convey pretty clearly that the kid got punished, and the punishment makes him want to do it again and again. He likes the negative attention.
This is where Teia is getting lost. She is taking up the sword of gender equality in a debate where gender equality is not the issue. As far as we know this is not a 15 year old trans boy otherwise the article probably would of mentioned that for the extra punch it would of caused if this was meant to be a trans issue. He's just a normal 15 year old boy that likes to cause trouble. No rights to be protected here.
Canada does things differently than here in America, sadly. Same as the situation where in Canada, your healthcare covers trans operations and medicine. Here in America, it doesn't. So it's still an expensive procedure here.
Exactly.
You missed the part where the boy explicitly says that he wants to be even more outlandish and crazy because he was punished for it. He is being willfully disruptive, and the fact that his mother dared him to do it in the first place makes me believe these two are treating this more like an amusing game than an actual fight for gender identity and equality.
I reiterate, this isn't a gender confused person trying to find their way in the world and being persecuted for it. This is more similar to a frat boy wearing a dress and causing a scene by being overly outlandish. Your picking the wrong issue to fight here.
He is acting out for attention AND he is wearing something people don't like. The latter point not being the issue here, the former being the problem.
Show me any medical document in the history of man that says that your condition requires you to wear dresses and high heels to school for your own health. You won't find any.
That's what it feels like to a transwoman who is told she can only be voted for prom king.
:LEGACY:
XLEDed DredgeX
BTraitor's GateB
:EDH:
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
WRTrias, The Betrayer (Gisela)RW
BRWKaalia, of the VastWRB
Thanks to SushiOtter of Hakai Studios for the awesome banner, and Argetlam of Hakai Studios for the equally awesome avvie!
Generation 2556677: The first time you see this, add it to your sig, but add 1 to the number. Call it a social experiment.
I'm sorry they would feel that way.
"You're sorry X feels that way." I don't get it. You didn't make that person feel anything, or do anything to that person at all. That I know, when someone says this, at least they've done something to a person. The one other case is when you speak for another group, who (for some rational reason or not) you feel responsible and apologetic. You feel sorry, 'apologetic', for some other people, that they have done something or other to a person.
So... you are/would be apologetic that persons would tell a transwoman she can only be in the running for prom king. Okay. Sounds appropriate (if this kind of extended apologetic-hood ever makes sense). Does that mean the earlier comparison makes sense to you now?
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
From what i saw and read in the story this isn't the first time this kid has been sent home for dress code violations. It seems to be a habitual problem with him and his mother.
Wearing hats and other such things that he isn't allowed to wear. If he wants to make a bet with his mom fine do it outside of school. to me he just seems that he is looking for attention of some kind.
the school was justified giving that he seems to be a repeat offender just trying to see what he can get away with.
I agree with this. it seems it is all publicity nothing more.
what is sad is that his mother is encouraging this type of behavior in which he will pay for it down the road since well no one will hire him, or if he does get hired he will be fired.
my job has a strict dress code spelled out for both men and women and what they are suppose to wear. most professional businesses do. you either accept them and follow with others or you can be let go.
one guy that use to work here got written up all the time for wearing clothes outside of the dress code. needless to say along with some other events he doesn't work here anymore.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum