Changing in thought and changing in action are 2 different things. I know people dont change. They may put on a smiling face and conform in the light of day, but in private they didnt change and are still evil deviant people. Violent people are always violent. A rapist will always have the urge to rape, a killer will always have the urge to kill and child molesters should just be taken out back and shot when found out about.
The thing about drug addicts and alcoholics, they will and always are drug addicts and alcoholics, just because they dont do drugs or drink doesnt change what they are.
Nope, I lived the life. I sold stuff I wasnt suppose to and had people around me that were doing illegal things. Hell my family is full of rum runners and moonshiners. I also learned that if you associate with those types you have a greater chance of going to jail or getting in trouble. Please give it a rest about going to work puts you at risk of wrongful imprisonment. I am starting to think most fighting this are very, very young people.
Make up your mind. Do you still hang out with a terrible crowd and are, as you described it, a "cancer" on society, or can people change?
Changing in thought and changing in action are 2 different things. I know people dont change. They may put on a smiling face and conform in the light of day, but in private they didnt change and are still evil deviant people. Violent people are always violent. A rapist will always have the urge to rape, a killer will always have the urge to kill and child molesters should just be taken out back and shot when found out about.
The thing about drug addicts and alcoholics, they will and always are drug addicts and alcoholics, just because they dont do drugs or drink doesnt change what they are.
1.) Holy ****, I thought this sort of thing was reserved for bad issues of The Punisher. Violent people can seek help, or maybe they just grow up a bit. A rapist can seek help, as it may well be that emotional and sexual repression led to it, or substance abuse problems, or mental illness. A killer will NOT always have the urge to kill. Or are Soldiers all extremely bloodthirsty? I don't know if I can sway you on this one. I just want you to step back briefly, and consider what you just said. Do you WANT to live in a world without Hope, Mercy, Forgiveness, or the potential for positive change? Have you never heard of Gangbangers going from Hitmen to leaders in community uplift/outreach programs? Even the Bloods and Crips were willing to set aside their feuds for as long as they could, when they realized they were just senselessly killing their friends and family.
2.) And what are they? They're sick. But they recognized they had a problem, and fixed it. Do you have any idea how hard it is to do that? The closest I have to it was recovering from Anger Issues a few years back, and I wouldn't put that in the same league as substance abuse.
You're suggesting Heinlein styled "stick" law enforcement. But you have to remember, the core of that principle was that the populace would be instilled with more discipline through required service (a not uncommon practice in some of the most peaceful countries- internally and externally), and corporal punishment. But even the most cold-hearted of characters in Starship Troopers would give anything to not have to execute someone. The same man also wrote "A Stranger in a Strange Land," which promotes peace through Love, Equality and Unity. No matter what change it is you want to effect, you have to address the social issues behind it first. The most successful Crime-Reduction efforts globally have either involved outright Martial Law, or Community Programs. Take your pick.
Look, I am not a whack job. I just dont believe on institutionalizing a person. When I am talking about the death penalty, I am talking about the worst of the worst, murders, rapists, and child molesters/pedophiles. Those 3 groups care less about lives and people in general then anyone feels I do.
Do they really? You seem to be quite happy to execute innocent people. I'm not sure what exactly constitutes caring less than that.
I'm not even clear on why you want to punish murderers. You're proposing the arbitrary execution of innocent people, so what objection do you have to someone else doing the same?
Murderers, rapists and child molesters generally have some pretty serious problems that went without therapy and caused them to do what they did. Killing them won't actually help. Punitive justice systems are terribly stupid, anyway. Of course we shouldn't just lock people up in a tiny room. That's idiotic. What should be done is to simply keep people away from the rest of society if they can't handle it and give them the care they need to one day perhaps return to it. If they don't get better they won't get out again.
This is the thinking that I am against. Why should society pay for these people when they dont contribute to society? Keeping them alive is a finaincal drain to the economy and an emotional drain to those they have harmed and their familes.
Pretty sure that some good old therapy would put and end to any emotional drain the victim and/or the families feel knowing that the criminal hasn't been killed.
Why should society rehabilitate criminals? Because it can actually work. Striving to help people redeem themselves from even the most terrible crimes is the decent thing to do. From a strictly cashflow perspective, the Swedish state gains four dollars for every one dollar they spend every time a young criminal is reformed and returns to society. It's less for older people but you still gain a productive, working citizen.
Rehabilitative and restorative justice work to redeem the criminal and heal the victim. Punitive justice simply hurts the criminal and because of imperfect systems also hurt innocents. Nothing is actually gained from having the death penalty. It's wasteful and irresponsible in the extreme.
Are you serious? Reform and rehabilitation doesnt work with harden murders. rapists and child molesters.
I am sure those effected by Charles Manson would like a word with you. Every time the man comes up for parole those effected by Charles Manson come out in drove to protest his release. When interviewed those people are visually upset that anyone would ever think of releasing him back into society.
I think you are trying to compare some teenager who broke into a store and got caught as to someone who goes on a planned, methodical killing spree. One MAY be able to be reformed and rehibilatated, the other wont be.
That all said, American rehibilitation revolves around caging up people who then associate with other demented humans. I seriously doubt much rehibilitaion happens in that type of environment.
I would be very leary of a society that has a monetary gain for rehibilitated prisoners. It would lead to corruption and fudged records to 'make money'.
Why do you have to be a conservative bible thumping tea party republican in order to support the death penalty and allowing dying people to die?
I fully support the death penalty, and I believe it isn't used enough. We are in absolutely no danger of going extinct, and we are completely capable of executing murderers and rapists in a humane and otherwise civilized manner.
The astronomical costs associated with the death penalty are not the costs of the ACT, but of the legal process leading to it. The numerous tax payer dollars that go into appeals, more appeals, incarceration, and legal counsel for the convicted.
2 appeals, 2 years, then get on with it.
Why should society pay hundreds of thousands of dollars every year for people like this: http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90611&page=1
100k plus every year for dialysis x 10+ years = over a MILLION dollars!!
No, something is broken in this system if that is what a killer gets from us.
I also support letting dying people die. If the case is real bad, and they have no coverage, why should they get hundreds of thousands of dollars of care? All that does is drive up the costs for those who actually do pay, and it helps to make health coverage even more unattainable for those people who are right at the cusp.
It's the swallowing vortex of uninsured who still get treatment that makes getting insured in the first place harder for more and more people, and as a result, increases costs yearly in order for doctors and hospitals to keep the lights on.
Uninsured are treated and dont pay > costs and premiums rise to adjust
cost and premiums rise > more people can't afford to be insured or pay
que viscious cycle
Why do these points of view make me a tea party republican bible thumper??
I am for gay marriage. Equal rights for every citizen is the paramount of the constitution.
I am against big business and the corporate political agenda. I despise a lobby bought congress that gets nothing done.
I am for a public option health plan. Get Obamacare and cover the minimums, or get your own plan and cover more. Better yet, have both.
(Aren't we already doing this in a way? I have Blue Cross, but I'll also get Medicaid - of course, the latter may go away)
I am against pollution and oil dominance, and for greener ideas and fuel alternatives.
I am strongly against relying on Saudi oil and kissing those asses over there.
So tell me, am I a tea party conservative just because I want murderers and rapists put down (we put down dogs, who more than often do less harm and do not know the difference between right and wrong), and I don't think we should spend astronomical amounts of money keeping "almost dead" people on life support?
Should I vote for Rick perry now?
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“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
we are completely capable of executing murderers and rapists in a humane and otherwise civilized manner.
Don't kid yourself dude, there is no such thing as a humane and civilized murder. Just because the victim is also a murderer, that doesn't mean that killing them isn't murder. The only time putting someone to death is humane and civilized is when they have a terminal illness, are in constant pain, and want to die.
I've always liked this line about the hypocrisy of the death penalty: "We kill people for killing people to show that killing people is wrong."
I've always liked this line about the hypocrisy of the death penalty: "We kill people for killing people to show that killing people is wrong."
Of course, many would say this statement is equivalent to saying "abortion is murder" since it relies heavily on what you call murder. To just say that killing another human being is murder, then teh state is sanctioning murder. To say an execution is justice served, and that murder requires personal motive makes the issue cloudier.
Wow I'm kind of surprised how civil the tone of this conversation is on this forum about politics.
I once worked for the major parties as a campaigner and interned with a US Senator. I used to support the Death Penalty whole heartedly but then someone made a very strong point. "People are afraid of death panels about killing grandma. But in the rush to find "justice" ignorant juries send to death anyone who stands before them who might plausibly have committed the crime regardless of innocence or sense."
Ever since then, I don't trust the average person to execute someone. Especially in Texas where every year we find certifiable proof and evidence that would have exonerated someone through DNA, but were too proud to admit that they might have made a mistake.
Someone who is unfit to be released is obviously not going to be released. If someone is fit to be released, however, then that's how it goes. Laypeople aren't fit for making this judgement, though.
Yet its a jury of your peers (laypeople) put those people in jail in the first place.
But your point was therapy would help those effected by the killer/rapist/child molester, I disagree. Keeping those evil anaimal alive and trying to reintrocuce them into society is bad in every way. So might as well eliminate the financial and emotional drain.
But your point was therapy would help those effected by the killer/rapist/child molester, I disagree. Keeping those evil anaimal alive and trying to reintrocuce them into society is bad in every way. So might as well eliminate the financial and emotional drain.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
Reread the whole thread. Bocephus is fine with a few innocent casualties.
What about the falsely convicted?
Again, with DNA and CSI technology today false convictions are far and few between. Even if someone is falsely convicted there is the appeals system. I do think the appeals system needs to be overhauled and limited. But if a person cant figure a way to show they are innocent with in a set time, I have no problem putting them to death.
Its ridiculous to have the numbes of violent prisoners we have locked up for the time we do. Its just a drain on the economy.
Again, with DNA and CSI technology today false convictions are far and few between.
But numerous links have shown you that this is just wrong. There are a disturbing number of false convictions that you just seem to want to ignore.
Its ridiculous to have the numbes of violent prisoners we have locked up for the time we do. Its just a drain on the economy.
People's rights don't go away because you have a problem with how much they cost.
You also never answered my earlier question. You said that people don't change, but earlier claimed that you regularly did nefarious things and hung out with what you called a "cancer" on society. So are you a "cancer" on society or can people change?
But numerous links have shown you that this is just wrong. There are a disturbing number of false convictions that you just seem to want to ignore.People's rights don't go away because you have a problem with how much they cost.
You also never answered my earlier question. You said that people don't change, but earlier claimed that you regularly did nefarious things and hung out with what you called a "cancer" on society. So are you a "cancer" on society or can people change?
Numerous links for how long ago? I dont deny there was a problem back in the 70s, 80s, and even into the 90s. But since then the ability to falsify DNA and evidence has become very hard.
Why should people who violate other peoples rights, get convicted of violent crimes, have right to anything? I am sorry, once a person kills another person they lost all their rights. Samr goes for rape and child molesters.
I never killed anyone, or raped anyone, or molested any children. As for what I did do, I walked away from it, but that didnt change who I was or am.
Numerous links for how long ago? I dont deny there was a problem back in the 70s, 80s, and even into the 90s. But since then the ability to falsify DNA and evidence has become very hard.
You've been watching too many crime dramas if you think we've reached a point where DNA evidence is infallible.
Why should people who violate other peoples rights, get convicted of violent crimes, have right to anything? I am sorry, once a person kills another person they lost all their rights. Samr goes for rape and child molesters.
On what basis did you pick those crimes as worthy of a revocation of rights? Am I allowed to rape and torture someone who steals something from me?
I never killed anyone, or raped anyone, or molested any children. As for what I did do, I walked away from it, but that didnt change who I was or am.
So you still "live the life" and "sell stuff you aren't supposed to?" Or is it that you don't but are still the kind of person who would do those things?
We don't punish people for what "kind of" person they are, we punish people for their actions.
Is theft a violent crime?? Not last I heard. It can be, but rarely is.
No I am not watching too many crime shows (matter of fact hate that type of TV). Its much, much harder to falsify evidence today then it was a decade ago. DNA is almost impossible to fake. Its possible but who ever is doing it needs to have a degree in forensics.
If you are asking me if I still do illegal things.. I am going to plead the 5th. Am I the same person who did those things back in the day? Yes I am. I just didnt want to go to prison and stepped away from the crowd I was dealing with.
Again, with DNA and CSI technology today false convictions are far and few between. Even if someone is falsely convicted there is the appeals system. I do think the appeals system needs to be overhauled and limited. But if a person cant figure a way to show they are innocent with in a set time, I have no problem putting them to death.
Its ridiculous to have the numbes of violent prisoners we have locked up for the time we do. Its just a drain on the economy.
The drain on the economy through the prison system is more due to the nonviolent drug offenders. We should probably kill them too.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
The drain on the economy through the prison system is more due to the nonviolent drug offenders. We should probably kill them too.
Thats all you. I have never said that.
If you would read what I posted prior, we cant throw non-violent criminals into prison and institutionalize them and expect them to change. Thats a faulty corrections system. So we take 'bad' people who do non-violent crimes and put them in jail and make them worse. Sounds like a real good system!!
Be more specific. Are we talking about violent criminals? or non-violent criminals? Are we talking about white collar crimes? Are we talking about drug dealers? You have to be more specific.
I think it is obvious. Like Goldfinger, he expects them to die.
Reading is tech!! I did say put to death violent murderers, rapists and child molesters. I did not say kill everyone in prison.
Recently at a Republican debate, one of the biggest applause lines of the night was the mere mention that Perry had executed over 200 people as governor. It seems that instead of viewing the death penalty as a somber and unfortunate duty of the state, the crowd issued a disgusting gleeful response at Texas' hardline approach. I can't think of the last time I was so sickened.
They were cheering that the man had the guts to do it and not kowtow to the mainstream "liberals." The libertarian position is clear enough, there is nothing sacred in the life of an aggressor.
1.) Holy ****, I thought this sort of thing was reserved for bad issues of The Punisher. Violent people can seek help, or maybe they just grow up a bit. A rapist can seek help, as it may well be that emotional and sexual repression led to it, or substance abuse problems, or mental illness. A killer will NOT always have the urge to kill. Or are Soldiers all extremely bloodthirsty? I don't know if I can sway you on this one. I just want you to step back briefly, and consider what you just said. Do you WANT to live in a world without Hope, Mercy, Forgiveness, or the potential for positive change? Have you never heard of Gangbangers going from Hitmen to leaders in community uplift/outreach programs? Even the Bloods and Crips were willing to set aside their feuds for as long as they could, when they realized they were just senselessly killing their friends and family.
2.) And what are they? They're sick. But they recognized they had a problem, and fixed it. Do you have any idea how hard it is to do that? The closest I have to it was recovering from Anger Issues a few years back, and I wouldn't put that in the same league as substance abuse.
You're suggesting Heinlein styled "stick" law enforcement. But you have to remember, the core of that principle was that the populace would be instilled with more discipline through required service (a not uncommon practice in some of the most peaceful countries- internally and externally), and corporal punishment. But even the most cold-hearted of characters in Starship Troopers would give anything to not have to execute someone. The same man also wrote "A Stranger in a Strange Land," which promotes peace through Love, Equality and Unity. No matter what change it is you want to effect, you have to address the social issues behind it first. The most successful Crime-Reduction efforts globally have either involved outright Martial Law, or Community Programs. Take your pick.
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Do they really? You seem to be quite happy to execute innocent people. I'm not sure what exactly constitutes caring less than that.
I'm not even clear on why you want to punish murderers. You're proposing the arbitrary execution of innocent people, so what objection do you have to someone else doing the same?
This is the thinking that I am against. Why should society pay for these people when they dont contribute to society? Keeping them alive is a finaincal drain to the economy and an emotional drain to those they have harmed and their familes.
Are you serious? Reform and rehabilitation doesnt work with harden murders. rapists and child molesters.
I am sure those effected by Charles Manson would like a word with you. Every time the man comes up for parole those effected by Charles Manson come out in drove to protest his release. When interviewed those people are visually upset that anyone would ever think of releasing him back into society.
I think you are trying to compare some teenager who broke into a store and got caught as to someone who goes on a planned, methodical killing spree. One MAY be able to be reformed and rehibilatated, the other wont be.
That all said, American rehibilitation revolves around caging up people who then associate with other demented humans. I seriously doubt much rehibilitaion happens in that type of environment.
I would be very leary of a society that has a monetary gain for rehibilitated prisoners. It would lead to corruption and fudged records to 'make money'.
I fully support the death penalty, and I believe it isn't used enough. We are in absolutely no danger of going extinct, and we are completely capable of executing murderers and rapists in a humane and otherwise civilized manner.
The astronomical costs associated with the death penalty are not the costs of the ACT, but of the legal process leading to it. The numerous tax payer dollars that go into appeals, more appeals, incarceration, and legal counsel for the convicted.
2 appeals, 2 years, then get on with it.
Why should society pay hundreds of thousands of dollars every year for people like this:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90611&page=1
100k plus every year for dialysis x 10+ years = over a MILLION dollars!!
No, something is broken in this system if that is what a killer gets from us.
I also support letting dying people die. If the case is real bad, and they have no coverage, why should they get hundreds of thousands of dollars of care? All that does is drive up the costs for those who actually do pay, and it helps to make health coverage even more unattainable for those people who are right at the cusp.
It's the swallowing vortex of uninsured who still get treatment that makes getting insured in the first place harder for more and more people, and as a result, increases costs yearly in order for doctors and hospitals to keep the lights on.
Uninsured are treated and dont pay > costs and premiums rise to adjust
cost and premiums rise > more people can't afford to be insured or pay
que viscious cycle
Why do these points of view make me a tea party republican bible thumper??
I am for gay marriage. Equal rights for every citizen is the paramount of the constitution.
I am against big business and the corporate political agenda. I despise a lobby bought congress that gets nothing done.
I am for a public option health plan. Get Obamacare and cover the minimums, or get your own plan and cover more. Better yet, have both.
(Aren't we already doing this in a way? I have Blue Cross, but I'll also get Medicaid - of course, the latter may go away)
I am against pollution and oil dominance, and for greener ideas and fuel alternatives.
I am strongly against relying on Saudi oil and kissing those asses over there.
So tell me, am I a tea party conservative just because I want murderers and rapists put down (we put down dogs, who more than often do less harm and do not know the difference between right and wrong), and I don't think we should spend astronomical amounts of money keeping "almost dead" people on life support?
Should I vote for Rick perry now?
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Don't kid yourself dude, there is no such thing as a humane and civilized murder. Just because the victim is also a murderer, that doesn't mean that killing them isn't murder. The only time putting someone to death is humane and civilized is when they have a terminal illness, are in constant pain, and want to die.
I've always liked this line about the hypocrisy of the death penalty: "We kill people for killing people to show that killing people is wrong."
I once worked for the major parties as a campaigner and interned with a US Senator. I used to support the Death Penalty whole heartedly but then someone made a very strong point. "People are afraid of death panels about killing grandma. But in the rush to find "justice" ignorant juries send to death anyone who stands before them who might plausibly have committed the crime regardless of innocence or sense."
Ever since then, I don't trust the average person to execute someone. Especially in Texas where every year we find certifiable proof and evidence that would have exonerated someone through DNA, but were too proud to admit that they might have made a mistake.
Yet its a jury of your peers (laypeople) put those people in jail in the first place.
But your point was therapy would help those effected by the killer/rapist/child molester, I disagree. Keeping those evil anaimal alive and trying to reintrocuce them into society is bad in every way. So might as well eliminate the financial and emotional drain.
Are juries infallible?
What about the falsely convicted?
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Reread the whole thread. Bocephus is fine with a few innocent casualties.
Again, with DNA and CSI technology today false convictions are far and few between. Even if someone is falsely convicted there is the appeals system. I do think the appeals system needs to be overhauled and limited. But if a person cant figure a way to show they are innocent with in a set time, I have no problem putting them to death.
Its ridiculous to have the numbes of violent prisoners we have locked up for the time we do. Its just a drain on the economy.
You also never answered my earlier question. You said that people don't change, but earlier claimed that you regularly did nefarious things and hung out with what you called a "cancer" on society. So are you a "cancer" on society or can people change?
Numerous links for how long ago? I dont deny there was a problem back in the 70s, 80s, and even into the 90s. But since then the ability to falsify DNA and evidence has become very hard.
Why should people who violate other peoples rights, get convicted of violent crimes, have right to anything? I am sorry, once a person kills another person they lost all their rights. Samr goes for rape and child molesters.
I never killed anyone, or raped anyone, or molested any children. As for what I did do, I walked away from it, but that didnt change who I was or am.
We don't punish people for what "kind of" person they are, we punish people for their actions.
No I am not watching too many crime shows (matter of fact hate that type of TV). Its much, much harder to falsify evidence today then it was a decade ago. DNA is almost impossible to fake. Its possible but who ever is doing it needs to have a degree in forensics.
If you are asking me if I still do illegal things.. I am going to plead the 5th. Am I the same person who did those things back in the day? Yes I am. I just didnt want to go to prison and stepped away from the crowd I was dealing with.
The drain on the economy through the prison system is more due to the nonviolent drug offenders. We should probably kill them too.
Thats all you. I have never said that.
If you would read what I posted prior, we cant throw non-violent criminals into prison and institutionalize them and expect them to change. Thats a faulty corrections system. So we take 'bad' people who do non-violent crimes and put them in jail and make them worse. Sounds like a real good system!!
Rehabilitation doesnt work in America. Period.
I think it is obvious. Like Goldfinger, he expects them to die.
That is what rehab centers are for. Drug use needs to stop being a crime that can get you put into jail, and should just land you in rehab.
Be more specific. Are we talking about violent criminals? or non-violent criminals? Are we talking about white collar crimes? Are we talking about drug dealers? You have to be more specific.
Reading is tech!! I did say put to death violent murderers, rapists and child molesters. I did not say kill everyone in prison.
They were cheering that the man had the guts to do it and not kowtow to the mainstream "liberals." The libertarian position is clear enough, there is nothing sacred in the life of an aggressor.
http://fair-use.org/benjamin-tucker/instead-of-a-book/a-word-about-capital-punishment
Very relevant to this thread.