Of all the places... This seems just a liiiiiittle like they're asking for trouble, right? I mean, a mosque. On Ground Zero. Maybe they're trolling us back for DMD? Hell if I know. This just seems... what?
Is it unreasonable to say, "You can't build a mosque here"? A temple of worship for a religion... close to a memorial site for a disaster caused by that religion. Seems like it's going to cause a lot of trouble and strife. Is this covered by religious freedom?
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If you deny their right to build on that location solely because of their religion, that is religious persecution, and that is not permitted.
Besides, if we were to start banning religious institutions on the basis of them having committed atrocities, there would be very few religious institutions.
If run right, there is no better place for a mosque.
Islam is a religion of peace. And innocent Muslims died in the towers. Muslims have every right to build a place of memorial for the dead, both their coreligionists and all the rest, just as Christians have a right to build churches at sites where other Christians have done great evils.
And though those already radicalized are undoubtedly beyond such messages, acceptance of the mosque just might say to the rest of the Muslim world that America does not see Islam as its enemy. (For that matter, some Americans seem to need this message, too.)
Of course, if the mosque becomes a place for militants to gather and celebrate the 9/11 attacks, that is as unacceptable as Fred Phelps protesting at funerals. But something tells me that is not what will happen.
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While they do have the right to build their mosque where they want, honestly, this is a stupid idea.
Let's be realistic, they're not going to make any friends this way. I can already see Fox having a field trip with this, I can almost picture O'Reilly; "The enemy is now building their mosque in our most sacred ground!"
Those muslims could have come up with much better ideas to improve Islam's image.
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It is always easy to be tolerant and understanding...Until someone presents an opinion completely opposite to your own.
I like how the thread title says "on" when the facts are "two blocks away". That's not disingenuous or misleading at all.
What exactly is the radius of distance you're willing to conflate with "on"? How far away should we place the "No Muslims allowed" signs to make sure they don't dirty up our Ground Zero with their Islam?
If it was up to me, there would be no mosques in the states, or anywhere else. Fixed the title for accuracy.
I think a lot of this is similar to responses to DMD-you can, but you really, really shouldn't.
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It hasn't passed yet but i figure it will. the landmark panel has to approve the destruction of the current building.
There are tons of people in NY upset about this and i really can't blame them. To me it is a pretty stupid way of putting up a memorial.
I could see putting up a sign or a monument, but a mosque?
why not let the japanse put a shrine at pearl harbor since there were innocent japense killed there as well?
there are some things that you just don't do and this is one of them.
What exactly is the radius of distance you're willing to conflate with "on"? How far away should we place the "No Muslims allowed" signs to make sure they don't dirty up our Ground Zero with their Islam?
putting up a sign or a monument of some kind no one will really complain about. putting up a mosque which symbolizes the religion that the terrorist used = stupid.
I wouldn't even be for putting a church there. (not that it would get approved anyway the aclu would be all over it).
They aren't making friends and only ticking people off.
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I don't think it's a "mosque," more like a community center. But you know, people who cry "Islamofascist" also tend to get worked up over the words "community center"... *shrug*
If it's getting state funds, then I have a problem with it, but from what I understand, they are simply being allowed to build it with their own money, which is not a problem.
If it was up to me, there would be no mosques in the states, or anywhere else.
Oh please, pretty please, try to back this statement up. I'm actually dying to see what feat of logic you rip from your ass to support that particular piece of absurdity.
I don't think it's a "mosque," more like a community center. But you know, people who cry "Islamofascist" also tend to get worked up over the words "community center"... *shrug*
Bold words. Would you extend this to "no churches or synagogues" as well? Hell, "houses of worship" in general.
Oh please, pretty please, try to back this statement up. I'm actually dying to see what feat of logic you rip from your ass to support that particular piece of absurdity.
Whoops. I thought I removed that part of the post before posting.
Yes, I extend this to churches and synagogues. And Buddhist shrines. Not able to back this up beyond personal philosophy that organized religion is stupid, misguided, and dangerous, especially to weak-minded people. Should not have posted that (in fact, I thought I didn't).
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Mikey, there is no logic to it. That's why he said 'if it was up to me'.
I don't get what the big deal is. People blow this stuff way out of proportion. 2 blocks is not even necessarily that close, especially in NYC where a block can be anywhere from a few hundred feet to a half mile.
Despite that, I still fail to see what the controversy is in this.
Yes, I extend this to churches and synagogues. And Buddhist shrines. Not able to back this up beyond personal philosophy that organized religion is stupid, misguided, and dangerous, especially to weak-minded people. Should not have posted that
please go see the 1st amendment. it will help you greatly.
Despite that, I still fail to see what the controversy is in this.
it could have something to do with the fact that the people that carried out 9/11 were muslim extremist and islamic facists. that is just my guess and a hunch but it could be well to the mark.
/sarcasm
there are people that view this religion as a world wide problem. while not all muslims are terrorist many terrorists are muslims. (notice the word many so i don't i don't have to get into some tit-for=tat arguement).
so i can see how people that went through 9/11 or had friends and family killed there would not want this being built near the site.
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so i can see how people that went through 9/11 or had friends and family killed there would not want this being built near the site.
In my opinion, those people need to learn that the religion didn't kill their friends/family, and get on with it. Blind hate isn't healthy, accepting facts and moving on is.
Ugh, this whole thread should be a non-issue.
Yes, I extend this to churches and synagogues. And Buddhist shrines. Not able to back this up beyond personal philosophy that organized religion is stupid, misguided, and dangerous, especially to weak-minded people. Should not have posted that (in fact, I thought I didn't).
(Weak-minded or strong-minded) people will make their own religions anyways, and it's not our right to stop it; whether we like it or not.
I wouldn't even be for putting a church there. (not that it would get approved anyway the aclu would be all over it).
On what basis do you think the ACLU would object to a church a few blocks away from Ground Zero, especially given that St. Nicholas Church is currently being rebuild much closer than this community center, and multiple other churches also exist close than this? It would seem to me that you have fallen hook, line and sinker for the dishonest thread title, and believe that they are building this thing "on" ground zero. You've them combined that little spark of ignorance with an absurd caricature of the ACLU that you've gleaned from who knows what absurd Right-Wing source, and spat out a rather embarrassing and absurd opinion on the situation. Well played.
Tiax, the title has been changed. I think, actually, you're the one jumping to conclusions here.
I agree with Talore that this should be a non-issue. It's not like it's saying 'haha, yeah, remember what we did! we're using this to smear it in your face!'. I think anyone who takes it that way just based on the fact that they WANT to construct this (without seeing the actual place and the message it is conveying) is being either a) prejudiced or b) overly sensitive. I can understand either response, especially if a loved one was killed on 9/11. But it doesn't warrant this not being built - here or wherever.
And Mystery - many MEN are terrorists. Many BLACKS are terrorists. Many WHITES are terrorists. Say that there was a thing like a white student union/community center/something of the like (please no debate about whether that's 'right' or not, it's just an example) that was widespread throughout America/regions of the world, and they decide to place one near the site of the Oklahoma City bombing. That wouldn't bother me, since there would be white community centers in many other areas. There are mosques everywhere. I don't see why putting one here is a problem.
I am not personally worried about the whole (false) "laughing in your face" aspect. I'm more worried about the blowback. I honestly think that someone is going to take this place down. There are enough radicals in the states. And when that happens, the blowback will be immense. Really immense.
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On what basis do you think the ACLU would object to a church a few blocks away from Ground Zero, especially given that St. Nicholas Church is currently being rebuild much closer than this community center, and multiple other churches also exist close than this? It would seem to me that you have fallen hook, line and sinker for the dishonest thread title, and believe that they are building this thing "on" ground zero. You've them combined that little spark of ignorance with an absurd caricature of the ACLU that you've gleaned from who knows what absurd Right-Wing source, and spat out a rather embarrassing and absurd opinion on the situation. Well played.
it seems to me that you have no facts as ussual to back up what you are assuming.
actually what is embarrassing is the constant lack of evidence in these types of posts it is more of a reflection on you than me really.
the mosque is being built 2 blocks away however long that is as blocks can vary from city to city, or even district to district depending on how it is laid out. it is close enough that people are in an uproar about it.
evidently you don't follow the ACLU that closely so i will just let your ignorance on what they do remain as such.
And a flame infraction for you, too.
There are mosques everywhere. I don't see why putting one here is a problem.
I said you don't see it that way that is fine you are entitled to your opinion, however there are other people that do care that is it. theya re entitled to their opinion as well and have the right to speak out against it if they wish.
I personally think it is just a bad idea. as someone said if it actually goes through and is build i am sure there will be a backlash.
please go see the 1st amendment. it will help you greatly.
it could have something to do with the fact that the people that carried out 9/11 were muslim extremist and islamic facists. that is just my guess and a hunch but it could be well to the mark.
/sarcasm
there are people that view this religion as a world wide problem. while not all muslims are terrorist many terrorists are muslims. (notice the word many so i don't i don't have to get into some tit-for=tat arguement).
so i can see how people that went through 9/11 or had friends and family killed there would not want this being built near the site.
The people that view this religion as a world wide problem are idiots. Blaming the muslims for 9/11 is no different than blaming christians for the Crusades. Christianity today is essentially a different "religion" than what it was during that time period when the pope ruled everything.
The people that view this religion as a world wide problem are idiots. Blaming the muslims for 9/11 is no different than blaming christians for the Crusades. Christianity today is essentially a different "religion" than what it was during that time period when the pope ruled everything.
I agree 100%, However the difference is christianity changed and people began seeing the how it was suppose to be praticed not by some power hungery people wearing a priests uniform but what was actually written in the book.
if you look at islam as a whole it hasn't changed much in the past several thousand years and is still practiced today almost the same as it was back then except for a few things. just take a look at the middle east. where honor killings and other things still occur today.
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Of all the places... This seems just a liiiiiittle like they're asking for trouble, right? I mean, a mosque. On Ground Zero. Maybe they're trolling us back for DMD? Hell if I know. This just seems... what?
Is it unreasonable to say, "You can't build a mosque here"? A temple of worship for a religion... close to a memorial site for a disaster caused by that religion. Seems like it's going to cause a lot of trouble and strife. Is this covered by religious freedom?
I don't think it's unreasonable to have a bit of pause at this, but recognizing that:
1. Not all Islamists are jihadists and
2. This particular group seems to openly condemn jihadist actions
I don't see the problem letting them build it.
In fact, I would encourage them to do so. It is a powerful message of peace to have it there.
Primarily because it dispels the very ignorant statement in the post, that is that 9/11 was caused by Islam. No, it was caused by a group of radical extreme Islamists. We REALLY need to start understanding this as a country.
Oh please, pretty please, try to back this statement up. I'm actually dying to see what feat of logic you rip from your ass to support that particular piece of absurdity.
mikey, you're an admin, please increase the allowed length of our signatures so I can sig this.
I don't get what the big deal is. People blow this stuff way out of proportion. 2 blocks is not even necessarily that close, especially in NYC where a block can be anywhere from a few hundred feet to a half mile.
Despite that, I still fail to see what the controversy is in this.
Well, there absolutely would be controversy if a Islamist group that actually encouraged anti-US sentiment and violence were to build a mosque on or in close proximity to Ground Zero. I don't see the difficulty of comprehending outrage towards that.
But I don't see anything proving this is the case, this is a group that has apparently denounced jihadism, and if that's the case, then I absolutely support them building a mosque there.
There are plenty of people who undoubtedly have the best of reasons for their faith, and it really isn't your place to rip their beliefs away any more than it is their place to shove them down your throat.
This is a public forum. If you post things in a public forum, people will respond, and if you post something that people disagree with, people will express their disagreement. They will especially express their disagreement when what you've posted is both offensive and has no backing whatsoever.
I really don't like the sound of doing this. Yes we live in an era of tolerance for one another and open Ideas but I know some history and this can be interpreted to resemble different things. pending on your view of course.
Several posts back said its like 2 blocks away or something? that is a huge factor to consider.
But none the less in history its not an uncommon practice to put up a place of worship to commemorate a major victory or just battle in general.
Using some logic like that you can make and interpretation that would offend new yorkers and others, hence why I think its a bad idea in general. I do admit I'm stretching the details a little to make my point.
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if you look at islam as a whole it hasn't changed much in the past several thousand years and is still practiced today almost the same as it was back then except for a few things. just take a look at the middle east..
Of all the places... This seems just a liiiiiittle like they're asking for trouble, right? I mean, a mosque. On Ground Zero. Maybe they're trolling us back for DMD? Hell if I know. This just seems... what?
Is it unreasonable to say, "You can't build a mosque here"? A temple of worship for a religion... close to a memorial site for a disaster caused by that religion. Seems like it's going to cause a lot of trouble and strife. Is this covered by religious freedom?
Added bonus: we're holding a songwriting contest in march with a registry drive going on right now! Check it out, plus the opportunity to earn $50!
Besides, if we were to start banning religious institutions on the basis of them having committed atrocities, there would be very few religious institutions.
Islam is a religion of peace. And innocent Muslims died in the towers. Muslims have every right to build a place of memorial for the dead, both their coreligionists and all the rest, just as Christians have a right to build churches at sites where other Christians have done great evils.
And though those already radicalized are undoubtedly beyond such messages, acceptance of the mosque just might say to the rest of the Muslim world that America does not see Islam as its enemy. (For that matter, some Americans seem to need this message, too.)
Of course, if the mosque becomes a place for militants to gather and celebrate the 9/11 attacks, that is as unacceptable as Fred Phelps protesting at funerals. But something tells me that is not what will happen.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Let's be realistic, they're not going to make any friends this way. I can already see Fox having a field trip with this, I can almost picture O'Reilly; "The enemy is now building their mosque in our most sacred ground!"
Those muslims could have come up with much better ideas to improve Islam's image.
What exactly is the radius of distance you're willing to conflate with "on"? How far away should we place the "No Muslims allowed" signs to make sure they don't dirty up our Ground Zero with their Islam?
I think a lot of this is similar to responses to DMD-you can, but you really, really shouldn't.
Added bonus: we're holding a songwriting contest in march with a registry drive going on right now! Check it out, plus the opportunity to earn $50!
There are tons of people in NY upset about this and i really can't blame them. To me it is a pretty stupid way of putting up a memorial.
I could see putting up a sign or a monument, but a mosque?
why not let the japanse put a shrine at pearl harbor since there were innocent japense killed there as well?
there are some things that you just don't do and this is one of them.
putting up a sign or a monument of some kind no one will really complain about. putting up a mosque which symbolizes the religion that the terrorist used = stupid.
I wouldn't even be for putting a church there. (not that it would get approved anyway the aclu would be all over it).
They aren't making friends and only ticking people off.
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I don't think it's a "mosque," more like a community center. But you know, people who cry "Islamofascist" also tend to get worked up over the words "community center"... *shrug*
Bold words. Would you extend this to "no churches or synagogues" as well? Hell, "houses of worship" in general.
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
Just because Terrorist = Muslim doesn't mean Muslim = Terrorist. Get over it already.
EDIT: Rereading this, it should be a "=" not a "=/=" whoops.
He doesn't seem to understand. Someone should tell him there are more bad christians in america than bad muslims.
Oh please, pretty please, try to back this statement up. I'm actually dying to see what feat of logic you rip from your ass to support that particular piece of absurdity.
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Whoops. I thought I removed that part of the post before posting.
Yes, I extend this to churches and synagogues. And Buddhist shrines. Not able to back this up beyond personal philosophy that organized religion is stupid, misguided, and dangerous, especially to weak-minded people. Should not have posted that (in fact, I thought I didn't).
Added bonus: we're holding a songwriting contest in march with a registry drive going on right now! Check it out, plus the opportunity to earn $50!
I don't get what the big deal is. People blow this stuff way out of proportion. 2 blocks is not even necessarily that close, especially in NYC where a block can be anywhere from a few hundred feet to a half mile.
Despite that, I still fail to see what the controversy is in this.
please go see the 1st amendment. it will help you greatly.
it could have something to do with the fact that the people that carried out 9/11 were muslim extremist and islamic facists. that is just my guess and a hunch but it could be well to the mark.
/sarcasm
there are people that view this religion as a world wide problem. while not all muslims are terrorist many terrorists are muslims. (notice the word many so i don't i don't have to get into some tit-for=tat arguement).
so i can see how people that went through 9/11 or had friends and family killed there would not want this being built near the site.
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In my opinion, those people need to learn that the religion didn't kill their friends/family, and get on with it. Blind hate isn't healthy, accepting facts and moving on is.
Ugh, this whole thread should be a non-issue.
(Weak-minded or strong-minded) people will make their own religions anyways, and it's not our right to stop it; whether we like it or not.
On what basis do you think the ACLU would object to a church a few blocks away from Ground Zero, especially given that St. Nicholas Church is currently being rebuild much closer than this community center, and multiple other churches also exist close than this? It would seem to me that you have fallen hook, line and sinker for the dishonest thread title, and believe that they are building this thing "on" ground zero. You've them combined that little spark of ignorance with an absurd caricature of the ACLU that you've gleaned from who knows what absurd Right-Wing source, and spat out a rather embarrassing and absurd opinion on the situation. Well played.
Flame infraction.
I agree with Talore that this should be a non-issue. It's not like it's saying 'haha, yeah, remember what we did! we're using this to smear it in your face!'. I think anyone who takes it that way just based on the fact that they WANT to construct this (without seeing the actual place and the message it is conveying) is being either a) prejudiced or b) overly sensitive. I can understand either response, especially if a loved one was killed on 9/11. But it doesn't warrant this not being built - here or wherever.
And Mystery - many MEN are terrorists. Many BLACKS are terrorists. Many WHITES are terrorists. Say that there was a thing like a white student union/community center/something of the like (please no debate about whether that's 'right' or not, it's just an example) that was widespread throughout America/regions of the world, and they decide to place one near the site of the Oklahoma City bombing. That wouldn't bother me, since there would be white community centers in many other areas. There are mosques everywhere. I don't see why putting one here is a problem.
Added bonus: we're holding a songwriting contest in march with a registry drive going on right now! Check it out, plus the opportunity to earn $50!
it seems to me that you have no facts as ussual to back up what you are assuming.
actually what is embarrassing is the constant lack of evidence in these types of posts it is more of a reflection on you than me really.
the mosque is being built 2 blocks away however long that is as blocks can vary from city to city, or even district to district depending on how it is laid out. it is close enough that people are in an uproar about it.
evidently you don't follow the ACLU that closely so i will just let your ignorance on what they do remain as such.
And a flame infraction for you, too.
I said you don't see it that way that is fine you are entitled to your opinion, however there are other people that do care that is it. theya re entitled to their opinion as well and have the right to speak out against it if they wish.
I personally think it is just a bad idea. as someone said if it actually goes through and is build i am sure there will be a backlash.
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The people that view this religion as a world wide problem are idiots. Blaming the muslims for 9/11 is no different than blaming christians for the Crusades. Christianity today is essentially a different "religion" than what it was during that time period when the pope ruled everything.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
I agree 100%, However the difference is christianity changed and people began seeing the how it was suppose to be praticed not by some power hungery people wearing a priests uniform but what was actually written in the book.
if you look at islam as a whole it hasn't changed much in the past several thousand years and is still practiced today almost the same as it was back then except for a few things. just take a look at the middle east. where honor killings and other things still occur today.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
I don't think it's unreasonable to have a bit of pause at this, but recognizing that:
1. Not all Islamists are jihadists and
2. This particular group seems to openly condemn jihadist actions
I don't see the problem letting them build it.
In fact, I would encourage them to do so. It is a powerful message of peace to have it there.
Primarily because it dispels the very ignorant statement in the post, that is that 9/11 was caused by Islam. No, it was caused by a group of radical extreme Islamists. We REALLY need to start understanding this as a country.
Then we should all be thankful it isn't up to you.
mikey, you're an admin, please increase the allowed length of our signatures so I can sig this.
Well, there absolutely would be controversy if a Islamist group that actually encouraged anti-US sentiment and violence were to build a mosque on or in close proximity to Ground Zero. I don't see the difficulty of comprehending outrage towards that.
But I don't see anything proving this is the case, this is a group that has apparently denounced jihadism, and if that's the case, then I absolutely support them building a mosque there.
This is a public forum. If you post things in a public forum, people will respond, and if you post something that people disagree with, people will express their disagreement. They will especially express their disagreement when what you've posted is both offensive and has no backing whatsoever.
Several posts back said its like 2 blocks away or something? that is a huge factor to consider.
But none the less in history its not an uncommon practice to put up a place of worship to commemorate a major victory or just battle in general.
Using some logic like that you can make and interpretation that would offend new yorkers and others, hence why I think its a bad idea in general. I do admit I'm stretching the details a little to make my point.
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