I realize this article is a few years old, and is sort of long, but I believe it has a lot of important information and I would like it to be the driving force of this thread so please read it before posting.
So the big question is, given the facts presented in that article, why are US citizens not outraged by their countries' support of Israel? Why does there continue to be a taboo on criticizing Israel when they really amount to an apartheid regime ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy )? Doesn't the US actually suffer because of it's stance on Israel? Israel is represented as a lone democracy surrounded by tyranny, but the US has supported dictators before if it benefited them; isn't that the job of US foreign policy? Are there ANY reasons to support Israel that don't involve religion?
I'm confused; are you saying that it's okay for US foreign policy to ignore democracies and support dictatorships? You might be able to fault the "Israel is democratic" defense for being inconsistent from the norm, but I think most people would agree that this is an inconsistency for the better, and does indeed constitute at least one valid reason to support Israel. Whether that reason outweighs the reasons not to support Israel, and whether that support should take the form it does, are still important questions, but don't overstate your case.
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I'm confused; are you saying that it's okay for US foreign policy to ignore democracies and support dictatorships? You might be able to fault the "Israel is democratic" defense for being inconsistent from the norm, but I think most people would agree that this is an inconsistency for the better, and does indeed constitute at least one valid reason to support Israel. Whether that reason outweighs the reasons not to support Israel, and whether that support should take the form it does, are still important questions, but don't overstate your case.
The article is arguing that this democracy, Isreal, does not deserve the level of support America gives it. From a simple cost/benefit realist perspective, Isreal is not a good investment for the following reasons:
1) Isreal doesn't need our help, its already the biggest power in the region. The US is supporting goliath over david.
2) Isreal's demoracy conflicts with American democracy. Americans value equality regardless of race or religion, whereas Isreal is 100% Jewish. There is no such thing as seperation of church and state in Isreal; American democratic values and Isreal democratic values are not the same.
3) The fact Jews suffered during the Holocaust doesn't justify harming a third innocent party, the Palestinians.
4) America may be Isreal's most loyal ally, but Isreal doesn't treat America the same way. Isreal has sold senstive military secrets given to them by the US to other nations such as China.
5) American support for Isreal draws attention from unwanted parties, such as terrorists.
6) Isreal is a liablity in said war on terror because even though it wants to provide aid against its enemies, it cannot for fear of mass retaliation by Arab states.
Given all these reasons, why does the US give Isreal the amount of support it gets? In essence, the question is:
Why has the US been willing to set aside its own security and that of many of its allies in order to advance the interests of another state?
I believe that US support of the Jews stems from the dual-citizenship that is enjoyed by many US govt officials. I personally do not trust the Jews. I do believe that they masterminded a certain "act of terrorism" several years ago. Often times I wonder what the world would be like if Hitler had succeeded at exterminating the Jews. I also believe that the Jews have over-inflated their own involvement in the "Holocaust" as a PR move to generate mass sympathy for themselves. Please note that the preceding statements are purely my opinion.
Wow, this is like... the ultimate troll post. Congratulations! Your reward is an infraction.
2) Isreal's demoracy conflicts with American democracy. Americans value equality regardless of race or religion, whereas Isreal is 100% Jewish. There is no such thing as seperation of church and state in Isreal; American democratic values and Isreal democratic values are not the same.
Why would this be a problem?
If there's freedom of religion, then there shouldn't be any problems with there being a state religion. If there isn't freedom of religion in Israel and persecution is taking place against non-Jews, then what you're saying is valid, but you would first have to make the case that it does.
5) American support for Isreal draws attention from unwanted parties, such as terrorists.
This is also not a valid reason to not support Israel.
6) Isreal is a liablity in said war on terror because even though it wants to provide aid against its enemies, it cannot for fear of mass retaliation by Arab states.
An ally in the Middle East is in no way a liability in the War on Terror.
I believe that US support of the Jews stems from the dual-citizenship that is enjoyed by many US govt officials. I personally do not trust the Jews. I do believe that they masterminded a certain "act of terrorism" several years ago. Often times I wonder what the world would be like if Hitler had succeeded at exterminating the Jews. I also believe that the Jews have over-inflated their own involvement in the "Holocaust" as a PR move to generate mass sympathy for themselves. Please note that the preceding statements are purely my opinion.
And Anti-Semitic and having no remote bearing as to anything to do with reality, oh don't worry, that was all noted.
2) Isreal's demoracy conflicts with American democracy. Americans value equality regardless of race or religion, whereas Isreal is 100% Jewish. There is no such thing as seperation of church and state in Isreal; American democratic values and Isreal democratic values are not the same.
True; Israel is basically a police state, almost by necessity.
3) The fact Jews suffered during the Holocaust doesn't justify harming a third innocent party, the Palestinians.
This is definitely the heart of the issue, and it's really thorny. The Palestinians aren't wholly innocent, and neither are the other Arab nations generally: They have attacked Israel, and most refuse to recognize the nation's legitimacy. Then again, what else could be expected... you have the grand trifecta of Western imperialism, broken political promises, and ancient religious divisions all centered around Jerusalem. "Easy peace" is a contradiction in terms there.
If there's freedom of religion, then there shouldn't be any problems with there being a state religion. If there isn't freedom of religion in Israel and persecution is taking place against non-Jews, then what you're saying is valid, but you would first have to make the case that it does.
There's certainly evidence for Israeli discrimination/oppression of Palestinians... but is that religious persecution, ethnic persecution, political persecution...? With that region, it seems one and the same...
An ally in the Middle East is in no way a liability in the War on Terror.
Not in a "war," certainly, but when it comes to winning the hearts and minds of non-extremist Muslims... Israel is no saint, and there's always a kind of belligerence about it. "We're here, we're Israel, get over it."
We give way more weapons to regimes with a low regard to democratic ideals than we promote civil rights and open economies.
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The US support of Israel is ultimately rooted in the belief that the Jewish people must control the Holy Land for the Rapture to occur. I'm not saying that this is the belief of everyone who supports Israel, but there is a large enough block of Evangelical Christians that this beliefs has a tangible effect on US foreign policy.
The article is arguing that this democracy, Israel, does not deserve the level of support America gives it. From a simple cost/benefit realist perspective, Israel is not a good investment for the following reasons:
1) Israel doesn't need our help, its already the biggest power in the region. The US is supporting Goliath over David.
Well, that's certainly true, though the support definitely helps maintain that power. However, it's rather ironic that despite all this help Israel has a more than shady history of espionage (even within the US). here, here, and here
2) Israel's democracy conflicts with American democracy. Americans value equality regardless of race or religion, whereas Israel is 100% Jewish. There is no such thing as separation of church and state in Israel; American democratic values and Israel democratic values are not the same.
Well, that's not entirely true, but suffice to say it's not like differences in governance stopped the United States from allying itself with a country.
3) The fact Jews suffered during the Holocaust doesn't justify harming a third innocent party, the Palestinians.
Guilt over the Holocaust lives large around the world, especially in the United States. In fact, if you do a little research, you'll find that Hitler was really popular with many in this country before the war. Most of the United States didn't believe a couple pictures and only when U.S. Soldiers found the camps did the truth come through.
Further, whoever made that comment about the Jewish lobby definitely had a point. If you're trying to be the President of the United States and you say you're withdrawing all aid to Israel - you're almost certainly going to lose.
4) America may be Israel's most loyal ally, but Israel doesn't treat America the same way. Israel has sold sensitive military secrets given to them by the US to other nations such as China.
Well, not to mention conducting espionage of their own in this country as well. Israel's also one of the few countries that openly admits that it conducts or conducted assassinations.
6) Israel is a liability in said war on terror because even though it wants to provide aid against its enemies, it cannot for fear of mass retaliation by Arab states.
Part of this is because Israel is considered the biggest bully and terrorist in the middle east by other countries....not to mention some Westerners come and eventually leave, but not before founding some independent state after their mandate ran out....Some very basic information is here.
I guess this is another chance to blame British colonialism....
I wish the UN had never created Israel. Its caused nothing but strife and war since it was created. Simply giving people a homeland doesn't work. Just look at Liberia and Sierra Leone. It didn't work there and it didn't work in Israel. Why Jews want to live in an area where nearly every neighbor wants to bomb you out of existence is beyond me. The Holy Land is still the Holy Land whether you live there or not.
The article is arguing that this democracy, Isreal, does not deserve the level of support America gives it. From a simple cost/benefit realist perspective, Isreal is not a good investment for the following reasons:
1) Isreal doesn't need our help, its already the biggest power in the region. The US is supporting goliath over david.
First of all, we give twice as much aid to Israel's neighbors collectively as we do to Israel.
Secondly, Israel's neighbors want to kill them. America's support helps prevent that.
Third, by what you're saying it sounds like America is the only reason Israel is still running. That we give them tons of money, which is not true. What's wrong with us being allies with them?
2) Isreal's demoracy conflicts with American democracy. Americans value equality regardless of race or religion, whereas Isreal is 100% Jewish. There is no such thing as seperation of church and state in Isreal; American democratic values and Isreal democratic values are not the same.
There is definitely no separation of church/state in America, no matter how much we say there is.
Israel is not 100% Jewish, there are many Christians, Muslims, and Druse who inhabit the region as well.
Israel has tailored its democracy to fit its needs. Not every democracy can be the same.[/quote]
3) The fact Jews suffered during the Holocaust doesn't justify harming a third innocent party, the Palestinians.
Palestinians? Innocent? The ones aiming hundreds of rockets a day at Israeli schools and hospitals? The ones that, even though Israel is at war with them, Israel provides electricity, medical supplies, food, etc. to?
5) American support for Isreal draws attention from unwanted parties, such as terrorists.
I think terrorists hate America for their own reasons, and if support for Israel is a part, it's a pretty small part. Either way, you're saying we shouldn't support a just cause because it might draw the ire of violent psychopathic fanatics?
6) Isreal is a liablity in said war on terror because even though it wants to provide aid against its enemies, it cannot for fear of mass retaliation by Arab states.
Where have you seen this? Israel has supported the US a ton, and is a huge developer of military technology. Israel has already taken on all of the Arab states and won. They wouldn't refuse to fight terrorism because their enemies wouldn't like it.
Problem is not if Israel is a democracy (Hitler too was elected democratically) , but that Israel is a state refusing to allow another people to have their own state .Settlements , racist treatment , walls of separation.The form of the Palestinian state Israel wishes is just ludicrous.'OK we'll give you desert for fertile land , keep the water supplies , keep our settlements , police your borders ,airspace etc, forbid you from having an army , and as icing on the cake our army will have the right to enter and leave your state as we please".Is this an independent state or a south African , apartheid era bandustan?Why the US hasn't enforced a peace deal that at least gives some rights to the Palestinians i don't understand.Anyone here ever read the Lieberman plan for peace in the mid-east?Why the US backs Israel unconditionally is beyond me , and it is not an issue of democracy.
1) In 1948 when Israel was formed, 700,000 Palestinians living within its borders lost their homeland. At the same time, over 1 million Jews living in Arab countries throughout the region were kicked out and became refugees. EVERY Jew was accepted into Israel, an incredibly tiny country. With many many Arab nations around with thousands of square miles of open space, why have the Palestinians not been let into one of these? Because the Arab world is using them. The Arabs like being able to point to the Palestinians and say "Look, look at what Israel is doing. They don't have a home. Hate Israel." Nothing is further from the truth. For a people they're at war with, Israel treats the Palestinians incredibly well. This is the only recorded war in which one side has provided their enemies with medical supplies, food, electricity, etc. All while being attacked.
2) Israel has tried MULTIPLE TIMES to create a Palestinian state. Again, the offers are declined so that they can be pointed to as a measure of Israel's wickedness. At Camp David in 2000, Israel offered Palestine 97% of their current holdings and other territories to make up for the other 3%. The Palestinians refused. Last October, Israel offered Palestine 98.5% of their land, with exchange for the rest. Again, they refused. The Palestinians are not trying to make peace. They will not agree to a compromise. They just want the Jews dead. They're not a rational people you can negotiate with.
I wish the UN had never created Israel. Its caused nothing but strife and war since it was created. Simply giving people a homeland doesn't work. Just look at Liberia and Sierra Leone. It didn't work there and it didn't work in Israel. Why Jews want to live in an area where nearly every neighbor wants to bomb you out of existence is beyond me. The Holy Land is still the Holy Land whether you live there or not.
And who are you to say all of this? Its also given the Jewish people a renewed identity, a homeland, a place where they can escape persecution, and so much more. Maybe there has been tons of conflict, but it has definitely been worth it. We want to live there because at least its something. And of course the biblical roots, Jerusalem, etc.
The Holy Land is not always the Holy Land. Before the Six Day War when we took back Jerusalem, the Western Wall (the holiest site is Judaism) was being used as a garbage dump. Yeh, not really very holy.
The USA supports Israel because it's a vassal state, more or less, and it's situated in a strategic region as its only current ally. Given the American empire supported Iraq under Saddam Hussein for these very reasons in the past, and supported apartheid South Africa to have a toehold in that region, and supported Chile under Pinochet and the current death squad government in Columbia (and the Hatian Duvallier junta... and and and, the list goes on and on) in order to control THAT region, Israel would have to do a lot worse before it was barred from the list of USA allies.
That and the fundamentalists think Israel needs to exist so the Antichrist will destroy it and Jesus can return. But ideology always arise in order to defend a materialist reason, not the reverse. The crazies are just useful for the strategists as a cover and to push more effectively via the illusion of a selfless or higher purpose for what is in fact only a selfish, real politik motive.
And who are you to say all of this? Its also given the Jewish people a renewed identity, a homeland, a place where they can escape persecution, and so much more. Maybe there has been tons of conflict, but it has definitely been worth it. We want to live there because at least its something. And of course the biblical roots, Jerusalem, etc.
The Holy Land is not always the Holy Land. Before the Six Day War when we took back Jerusalem, the Western Wall (the holiest site is Judaism) was being used as a garbage dump. Yeh, not really very holy.
That's my thing - everyone has identity - why does any religion, race, ethos, or creed need a country? (and as for that, what about the conflict between moderate/progressive sects of Jews and more orthodox within Israel)
Biblical roots are the reason that whole area has been fought over for two millennium. There are places holy to at least Jews, Christians, and Muslims all within the current boundaries of the country. What right does any one particular group have over the others to claim that "holy land" belongs to them and no other?
Escaping persecution - I'm not even sure that works. are Jews persecuted in the United States? Have Jews truly been persecuted since the fall of communist Russia? Then, if anything, I should talk about the reaction Jewish students at a certain school I attended and how they reacted to my very liberal Iranian friend (not religious, doesn't cover, father was one of the academics who escaped the country) - I'll be extremely kind and merely say she was made unwelcome.
"Holy Land" - I understand certain sites are very important to a wide variety of religions, but just because something isn't used in a way you approve doesn't give you the right to take that land.
until the world gives native americans, australian aboriginees, or hell even eastern european gypsies a homeland. the whole "wah wah we were persecuted so give us a country" thing is just silly rhetoric.
until the world gives native americans, australian aboriginees, or hell even eastern european gypsies a homeland. the whole "wah wah we were persecuted so give us a country" thing is just silly rhetoric.
Erhm - gypsies more or less do at least in EASTERN EUROPE - Poland has become a settling point for many of them with an incredibly solid mingling of the two cultures where they're almost indistinguishable these days. (My bloodline on my father's side stems from both, and it's really hard to trace which is which past a few generations beyond "that name sounds more Polish/Rom")
i would disagree. gypsies have a long history of persecution and just because they can now live in relative peace in most european countries does not mean they did not endure hardship during the holocaust as well. and by hardship i mean one of the worst attempted genocides in history.
Also note i could easily argue that jewish people would also be able to live in relative peace in most european countries.
Is at least some part of their cultural group made up of upper class people with a strong nationalist philosophy that were displaced but still have upper class privilege they can bank on, and does their future homeland sit on an important strategic spot for a major empire?
Well, tough luck then.
(You might as well ask why the USA doesn't do crap for East Timor.)
it was more of a rhetorical question for those who cant see the hypocrisy in most of the reasoning behind the support for israel and not other places/peoples.
I wouldn't say that it's rooted in this but there's a nutter demographic that the politicians who support the more practical goals of having a staging base in the Middle East along with people who are happy to purchase and try out new weapon systems figure that they might as well tap into.
There are no other countries for which any significant segment of the American population is fervently supportive of our alliance status. Look at the backlash from Americans when our allies raised objections to Iraq. In fact, most Americans do not know enough about foreign policy to name our allies. However, Israel's status is politically untouchable in a way that no other country's is.
Also, I would object to your characterization of Israel as a staging base. Do we even have troops stationed there? We've used nations like Kuwait as a staging ground, but I'm not familiar with any uses of Israel in that regard.
First of all, we give twice as much aid to Israel's neighbors collectively as we do to Israel.
Let's look at the whole picture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_–_United_States_relations#United_States_military_and_economic_aid
Over the years, Israel has received more than $100 billion in direct economic aid from the US, and while Egypt may be receiving a lot right now, it's never going to compare to this figure. This also does not account for the billions worth of lending they have access to. It also doesn't account for the earnings Israel has made selling technology it has imported from the US, or benefits and subsidies the US have given to Israeli private ventures. Your blanket statement is massively misleading.
Secondly, Israel's neighbors want to kill them. America's support helps prevent that.
Israel's neighbors are no match for the IDF. They are at best several decades behind in military technology. America's unconditional support only has emboldened the IDF to the point they don't hesitate to unnecessarily use excessive force in suppressing their poorly-armed enemies, resulting in tens of thousands of civilian casualties over the years.
Third, by what you're saying it sounds like America is the only reason Israel is still running. That we give them tons of money, which is not true.
There is definitely no separation of church/state in America, no matter how much we say there is.
Israel is not 100% Jewish, there are many Christians, Muslims, and Druse who inhabit the region as well.
Israel has tailored its democracy to fit its needs. Not every democracy can be the same.
Uh, your argument is exactly what is *wrong* with the principle of Israel's government. You said it yourself, Jews are not the only people living in there. Even if you were right in saying the US government isn't as separate from the church as it should be, that doesn't make it right, and why? Because there are people in the US who don't belong to a Christian sect.
Palestinians? Innocent? The ones aiming hundreds of rockets a day at Israeli schools and hospitals? The ones that, even though Israel is at war with them, Israel provides electricity, medical supplies, food, etc. to?
Yes, well, if the only Palestinians Israel killed or abused were Hamas militants you would have no complains from me, since I agree that Hamas should absolutely be terminated. The vast majority of the palestinian victims of this conflict have indeed been innocents, though. The atrocities the IDF has inflicted upon civilians in their attacks are not nearly in the same league as the Qassam rocket attacks. Qassam rockets have killed less Israelis in the last decade than smoking kills in one week...
Oh, and Israel provides for Palestinians because they are absolutely *forced* to, not out of the kindness of their heart. Even then they deny them basic human needs and dignity. It's laughable for you to even suggest the people of Gaza, who are starved and living among ruins with no running water or electricity and being denied basic resources, or the people of the West Bank who have been overrun, marginalized and ostracized by illegal settlers, are receiving any favors from Israel.
I think terrorists hate America for their own reasons, and if support for Israel is a part, it's a pretty small part. Either way, you're saying we shouldn't support a just cause because it might draw the ire of violent psychopathic fanatics?
Perhaps you shouldn't support a cause with an armed institution which has a worse track record of human rights violations and war crimes than violent psychopathic fanatics?
Many more people than just terrorists see the US's support of Israel as an act of imperialism.
1) In 1948 when Israel was formed, 700,000 Palestinians living within its borders lost their homeland. At the same time, over 1 million Jews living in Arab countries throughout the region were kicked out and became refugees.
So two wrongs would have made one right? It's at best wishful thinking to believe things could have been resolved so easily. Somehow I don't feel as sorry for the Jews who were sent out of the homes to settle in a rich and fertile land as you do.
2) Israel has tried MULTIPLE TIMES to create a Palestinian state.
So has Palestine. A Palestinian state will be impossible as long as extremist belligerent groups in *both* countries haven't been purged. There is an extreme lack of enough will to cooperate from both sides at the moment. As long as the IDF continues to have no regard for the lives of Palestinian victims and illegal settlers continue to steal the best Palestinian land... Israel will be impeding any opportunity of a settlement as much as the PLO and Hamas ever did.
The Palestinians are not trying to make peace. They will not agree to a compromise. They just want the Jews dead. They're not a rational people you can negotiate with.
I am sorry for my language, but your reading of the situation is simply moronic. Yes, there are power groups within Palestine (and also Israel, don't deny it) who want to continue the armed conflict and *will* thwart negotiation attempts from either side. This does not mean the rest of the Palestinian population are on their side. There wouldn't even be negotiations if, as you said, Palestine didn't want peace. It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
And who are you to say all of this? Its also given the Jewish people a renewed identity, a homeland, a place where they can escape persecution, and so much more.
While at the same robbing and denying a helpless people of their way of life, their possessions, any hope of prosperity, and this is right because...? The Jewish people could have that in any developed country, just like everyone who lives in there does...
Maybe there has been tons of conflict, but it has definitely been worth it.
Perhaps we simply disagree on some basic moral principle. I don't agree you are allowed to take everything away from someone, commit war crimes, and human rights violations in your search for fulfillment.
i would disagree. gypsies have a long history of persecution and just because they can now live in relative peace in most european countries does not mean they did not endure hardship during the holocaust as well. and by hardship i mean one of the worst attempted genocides in history.
Also note i could easily argue that jewish people would also be able to live in relative peace in most european countries.
so again, how come no homeland for them?
Yes and no - I don't care to parse it out to much because of my own family background, but honestly - Rom tend to not care about intermixing with other cultures as long as they get to keep their own alive, it's pretty much a primary tenet of the culture.
And yes, bad things happened to our people back during the Holocaust, but honestly it's a rather tangential thing - the Rom were never really looking to have a singular homeland, they were nomadic primarily by preference - Jews on the other hand were FORCED to be nomadic/resettle time and time again. [On a side note - with the loose similarities between what I've been able to learn from my own family of Rom occultism and via my wife's family about Kabbalah - it really almost seems, especially once you factor in some of the physical similarity that the two "tribes" likely came from the same source]
It's rather synonymous to your comment on Native Americans - sure, for tribes like the Iriquois that were agrarian and cared to stay in one place it would make sense - but for the tribes of the Southwest, most of those were nomadic by choice without any desire to have a territory exclusively of their own. To claim that both should have an equal claim to a homeland is a little silly, since one obviously had a history of holding one - while the other did not.
And exactly how is Israel leaving the Palestinians alone?They take their land and houses , and that is leaving them alone?Let me get it straight you are actually saying that the Palestinians should say "i surrender , i am the villain , you win"and be at the Israelis mercy?Would you not fight under these conditions?Hell the American colonies fought for independence because taxes rose, and you advocate that a people systematically abused and robed should simply surrender to the whims of the occupier, is that what you would do?
Ok first off you need to learn some history here, because you obviously are only looking at it from one point of view.
Israel conquered most of that land during the war. they were attacked and they managed to defeat every nation in one fell swoop and took a bunch of land with it.
over the years and the numerous peace accords israel has given back much of the land that they rightfully took in a military engagement. Yet that has not stopped the bombings or anything else.
finally sick of giving up land and being bombed constantly for it they have taken a different approach. Now if you attack us you are going to pay.
2ndly they have every right to be there as they were run out off of it by the arabs and the nazi's during WWII.
they only took back what was their's to begin with.
look up the 1967 war. it was a 6 day war in which israel beat the snot out of 5 countries with minimal losses.
Why? because the arabs on the area decided to try and run them out with egypt leading the way. a little hint Israel has never lost a war it has fought in.
if you are going to be allies with someone be it with the person that wins all the time.
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Ok first off you need to learn some history here, because you obviously are only looking at it from one point of view.
I'm having trouble with this and...
2ndly they have every right to be there as they were run out off of it by the arabs and the nazi's during WWII.
this.
See, you (claiming the jews were run off the land in palestine during the second world war by nazis) are a wee tiny tad off on your history. I mean, you are only wrong about the last time there was a jewish state in that land by, oh, one or two thousand years. Were there jews in the land? Yes, but always massively outnumbered.
The last time there was a jewish kingdom in or around Jerusalem was in about 600 AD. Sure, their were lots of jews in palestine at various points, but nothing really significant. Yes, the Arabs were trying to kick the jews off the land in palestine during the war, but no more so than in the ten years preceeding that; it had stuff all to do with the nazis and more because, gee, it was their land.
And who are you to say all of this? Its also given the Jewish people a renewed identity, a homeland, a place where they can escape persecution, and so much more. Maybe there has been tons of conflict, but it has definitely been worth it. We want to live there because at least its something. And of course the biblical roots, Jerusalem, etc.
The Holy Land is not always the Holy Land. Before the Six Day War when we took back Jerusalem, the Western Wall (the holiest site is Judaism) was being used as a garbage dump. Yeh, not really very holy.
People are persecuted everywhere and for every imaginable reason. Most of the time no one cares and I don't know why people care about the Jews more than other persecuted peoples like the Roma or Untouchables. The thing is I still think no one really cares about the Jews. If the US and Israel's other allies didn't need it as a strategic base I doubt Israel as we know it today would exist.
The Holy Land is not just Jerusalem, its Israel as a whole. A city can be destroyed or remade time and time again. IMHO the Holy Land is an idea as well as a place but most people just don't seem to get the idea bit. Whereever you choose to bow your head and praise God is the Holy Land and if the Jews are God's chosen people then whereever they go doesn't the Holy Land follow? *shrug* I'm just some crazy agnostic with some romantic ideas about faith I suppose.
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I realize this article is a few years old, and is sort of long, but I believe it has a lot of important information and I would like it to be the driving force of this thread so please read it before posting.
So the big question is, given the facts presented in that article, why are US citizens not outraged by their countries' support of Israel? Why does there continue to be a taboo on criticizing Israel when they really amount to an apartheid regime ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy )? Doesn't the US actually suffer because of it's stance on Israel? Israel is represented as a lone democracy surrounded by tyranny, but the US has supported dictators before if it benefited them; isn't that the job of US foreign policy? Are there ANY reasons to support Israel that don't involve religion?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
The article is arguing that this democracy, Isreal, does not deserve the level of support America gives it. From a simple cost/benefit realist perspective, Isreal is not a good investment for the following reasons:
1) Isreal doesn't need our help, its already the biggest power in the region. The US is supporting goliath over david.
2) Isreal's demoracy conflicts with American democracy. Americans value equality regardless of race or religion, whereas Isreal is 100% Jewish. There is no such thing as seperation of church and state in Isreal; American democratic values and Isreal democratic values are not the same.
3) The fact Jews suffered during the Holocaust doesn't justify harming a third innocent party, the Palestinians.
4) America may be Isreal's most loyal ally, but Isreal doesn't treat America the same way. Isreal has sold senstive military secrets given to them by the US to other nations such as China.
5) American support for Isreal draws attention from unwanted parties, such as terrorists.
6) Isreal is a liablity in said war on terror because even though it wants to provide aid against its enemies, it cannot for fear of mass retaliation by Arab states.
Given all these reasons, why does the US give Isreal the amount of support it gets? In essence, the question is:
Wow, this is like... the ultimate troll post. Congratulations! Your reward is an infraction.
Why would this be a problem?
If there's freedom of religion, then there shouldn't be any problems with there being a state religion. If there isn't freedom of religion in Israel and persecution is taking place against non-Jews, then what you're saying is valid, but you would first have to make the case that it does.
This is also not a valid reason to not support Israel.
An ally in the Middle East is in no way a liability in the War on Terror.
And Anti-Semitic and having no remote bearing as to anything to do with reality, oh don't worry, that was all noted.
Yeah, I got that. But LogicX seems to have gone a little bit further than that.
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True; Israel is basically a police state, almost by necessity.
This is definitely the heart of the issue, and it's really thorny. The Palestinians aren't wholly innocent, and neither are the other Arab nations generally: They have attacked Israel, and most refuse to recognize the nation's legitimacy. Then again, what else could be expected... you have the grand trifecta of Western imperialism, broken political promises, and ancient religious divisions all centered around Jerusalem. "Easy peace" is a contradiction in terms there.
There's certainly evidence for Israeli discrimination/oppression of Palestinians... but is that religious persecution, ethnic persecution, political persecution...? With that region, it seems one and the same...
Not in a "war," certainly, but when it comes to winning the hearts and minds of non-extremist Muslims... Israel is no saint, and there's always a kind of belligerence about it. "We're here, we're Israel, get over it."
We give way more weapons to regimes with a low regard to democratic ideals than we promote civil rights and open economies.
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
Well, that's certainly true, though the support definitely helps maintain that power. However, it's rather ironic that despite all this help Israel has a more than shady history of espionage (even within the US). here, here, and here
Well, that's not entirely true, but suffice to say it's not like differences in governance stopped the United States from allying itself with a country.
Guilt over the Holocaust lives large around the world, especially in the United States. In fact, if you do a little research, you'll find that Hitler was really popular with many in this country before the war. Most of the United States didn't believe a couple pictures and only when U.S. Soldiers found the camps did the truth come through.
Further, whoever made that comment about the Jewish lobby definitely had a point. If you're trying to be the President of the United States and you say you're withdrawing all aid to Israel - you're almost certainly going to lose.
Well, not to mention conducting espionage of their own in this country as well. Israel's also one of the few countries that openly admits that it conducts or conducted assassinations.
While that's certainly a factor, it's also not the sole reason why this country is the target of terrorism.
Part of this is because Israel is considered the biggest bully and terrorist in the middle east by other countries....not to mention some Westerners come and eventually leave, but not before founding some independent state after their mandate ran out....Some very basic information is here.
I guess this is another chance to blame British colonialism....
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First of all, we give twice as much aid to Israel's neighbors collectively as we do to Israel.
Secondly, Israel's neighbors want to kill them. America's support helps prevent that.
Third, by what you're saying it sounds like America is the only reason Israel is still running. That we give them tons of money, which is not true. What's wrong with us being allies with them?
There is definitely no separation of church/state in America, no matter how much we say there is.
Israel is not 100% Jewish, there are many Christians, Muslims, and Druse who inhabit the region as well.
Israel has tailored its democracy to fit its needs. Not every democracy can be the same.[/quote]
Palestinians? Innocent? The ones aiming hundreds of rockets a day at Israeli schools and hospitals? The ones that, even though Israel is at war with them, Israel provides electricity, medical supplies, food, etc. to?
I think terrorists hate America for their own reasons, and if support for Israel is a part, it's a pretty small part. Either way, you're saying we shouldn't support a just cause because it might draw the ire of violent psychopathic fanatics?
Where have you seen this? Israel has supported the US a ton, and is a huge developer of military technology. Israel has already taken on all of the Arab states and won. They wouldn't refuse to fight terrorism because their enemies wouldn't like it.
1) In 1948 when Israel was formed, 700,000 Palestinians living within its borders lost their homeland. At the same time, over 1 million Jews living in Arab countries throughout the region were kicked out and became refugees. EVERY Jew was accepted into Israel, an incredibly tiny country. With many many Arab nations around with thousands of square miles of open space, why have the Palestinians not been let into one of these? Because the Arab world is using them. The Arabs like being able to point to the Palestinians and say "Look, look at what Israel is doing. They don't have a home. Hate Israel." Nothing is further from the truth. For a people they're at war with, Israel treats the Palestinians incredibly well. This is the only recorded war in which one side has provided their enemies with medical supplies, food, electricity, etc. All while being attacked.
2) Israel has tried MULTIPLE TIMES to create a Palestinian state. Again, the offers are declined so that they can be pointed to as a measure of Israel's wickedness. At Camp David in 2000, Israel offered Palestine 97% of their current holdings and other territories to make up for the other 3%. The Palestinians refused. Last October, Israel offered Palestine 98.5% of their land, with exchange for the rest. Again, they refused. The Palestinians are not trying to make peace. They will not agree to a compromise. They just want the Jews dead. They're not a rational people you can negotiate with.
And who are you to say all of this? Its also given the Jewish people a renewed identity, a homeland, a place where they can escape persecution, and so much more. Maybe there has been tons of conflict, but it has definitely been worth it. We want to live there because at least its something. And of course the biblical roots, Jerusalem, etc.
The Holy Land is not always the Holy Land. Before the Six Day War when we took back Jerusalem, the Western Wall (the holiest site is Judaism) was being used as a garbage dump. Yeh, not really very holy.
That and the fundamentalists think Israel needs to exist so the Antichrist will destroy it and Jesus can return. But ideology always arise in order to defend a materialist reason, not the reverse. The crazies are just useful for the strategists as a cover and to push more effectively via the illusion of a selfless or higher purpose for what is in fact only a selfish, real politik motive.
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That's my thing - everyone has identity - why does any religion, race, ethos, or creed need a country? (and as for that, what about the conflict between moderate/progressive sects of Jews and more orthodox within Israel)
Biblical roots are the reason that whole area has been fought over for two millennium. There are places holy to at least Jews, Christians, and Muslims all within the current boundaries of the country. What right does any one particular group have over the others to claim that "holy land" belongs to them and no other?
Escaping persecution - I'm not even sure that works. are Jews persecuted in the United States? Have Jews truly been persecuted since the fall of communist Russia? Then, if anything, I should talk about the reaction Jewish students at a certain school I attended and how they reacted to my very liberal Iranian friend (not religious, doesn't cover, father was one of the academics who escaped the country) - I'll be extremely kind and merely say she was made unwelcome.
"Holy Land" - I understand certain sites are very important to a wide variety of religions, but just because something isn't used in a way you approve doesn't give you the right to take that land.
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Erhm - gypsies more or less do at least in EASTERN EUROPE - Poland has become a settling point for many of them with an incredibly solid mingling of the two cultures where they're almost indistinguishable these days. (My bloodline on my father's side stems from both, and it's really hard to trace which is which past a few generations beyond "that name sounds more Polish/Rom")
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
i would disagree. gypsies have a long history of persecution and just because they can now live in relative peace in most european countries does not mean they did not endure hardship during the holocaust as well. and by hardship i mean one of the worst attempted genocides in history.
Also note i could easily argue that jewish people would also be able to live in relative peace in most european countries.
so again, how come no homeland for them?
Is at least some part of their cultural group made up of upper class people with a strong nationalist philosophy that were displaced but still have upper class privilege they can bank on, and does their future homeland sit on an important strategic spot for a major empire?
Well, tough luck then.
(You might as well ask why the USA doesn't do crap for East Timor.)
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There are no other countries for which any significant segment of the American population is fervently supportive of our alliance status. Look at the backlash from Americans when our allies raised objections to Iraq. In fact, most Americans do not know enough about foreign policy to name our allies. However, Israel's status is politically untouchable in a way that no other country's is.
Also, I would object to your characterization of Israel as a staging base. Do we even have troops stationed there? We've used nations like Kuwait as a staging ground, but I'm not familiar with any uses of Israel in that regard.
Let's look at the whole picture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_–_United_States_relations#United_States_military_and_economic_aid
Over the years, Israel has received more than $100 billion in direct economic aid from the US, and while Egypt may be receiving a lot right now, it's never going to compare to this figure. This also does not account for the billions worth of lending they have access to. It also doesn't account for the earnings Israel has made selling technology it has imported from the US, or benefits and subsidies the US have given to Israeli private ventures. Your blanket statement is massively misleading.
Israel's neighbors are no match for the IDF. They are at best several decades behind in military technology. America's unconditional support only has emboldened the IDF to the point they don't hesitate to unnecessarily use excessive force in suppressing their poorly-armed enemies, resulting in tens of thousands of civilian casualties over the years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_aid_to_Israel.gif
And direct economic aid is only the tip of it.
Well, if there was some sort of accountability from the part of Israel for acts like this...
Or if it didn't basically put the leadership of the country in the pockets of the Zionist lobby...
Uh, your argument is exactly what is *wrong* with the principle of Israel's government. You said it yourself, Jews are not the only people living in there. Even if you were right in saying the US government isn't as separate from the church as it should be, that doesn't make it right, and why? Because there are people in the US who don't belong to a Christian sect.
Yes, well, if the only Palestinians Israel killed or abused were Hamas militants you would have no complains from me, since I agree that Hamas should absolutely be terminated. The vast majority of the palestinian victims of this conflict have indeed been innocents, though. The atrocities the IDF has inflicted upon civilians in their attacks are not nearly in the same league as the Qassam rocket attacks. Qassam rockets have killed less Israelis in the last decade than smoking kills in one week...
Oh, and Israel provides for Palestinians because they are absolutely *forced* to, not out of the kindness of their heart. Even then they deny them basic human needs and dignity. It's laughable for you to even suggest the people of Gaza, who are starved and living among ruins with no running water or electricity and being denied basic resources, or the people of the West Bank who have been overrun, marginalized and ostracized by illegal settlers, are receiving any favors from Israel.
Perhaps you shouldn't support a cause with an armed institution which has a worse track record of human rights violations and war crimes than violent psychopathic fanatics?
Many more people than just terrorists see the US's support of Israel as an act of imperialism.
So two wrongs would have made one right? It's at best wishful thinking to believe things could have been resolved so easily. Somehow I don't feel as sorry for the Jews who were sent out of the homes to settle in a rich and fertile land as you do.
So has Palestine. A Palestinian state will be impossible as long as extremist belligerent groups in *both* countries haven't been purged. There is an extreme lack of enough will to cooperate from both sides at the moment. As long as the IDF continues to have no regard for the lives of Palestinian victims and illegal settlers continue to steal the best Palestinian land... Israel will be impeding any opportunity of a settlement as much as the PLO and Hamas ever did.
I am sorry for my language, but your reading of the situation is simply moronic. Yes, there are power groups within Palestine (and also Israel, don't deny it) who want to continue the armed conflict and *will* thwart negotiation attempts from either side. This does not mean the rest of the Palestinian population are on their side. There wouldn't even be negotiations if, as you said, Palestine didn't want peace. It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
While at the same robbing and denying a helpless people of their way of life, their possessions, any hope of prosperity, and this is right because...? The Jewish people could have that in any developed country, just like everyone who lives in there does...
Perhaps we simply disagree on some basic moral principle. I don't agree you are allowed to take everything away from someone, commit war crimes, and human rights violations in your search for fulfillment.
Yes and no - I don't care to parse it out to much because of my own family background, but honestly - Rom tend to not care about intermixing with other cultures as long as they get to keep their own alive, it's pretty much a primary tenet of the culture.
And yes, bad things happened to our people back during the Holocaust, but honestly it's a rather tangential thing - the Rom were never really looking to have a singular homeland, they were nomadic primarily by preference - Jews on the other hand were FORCED to be nomadic/resettle time and time again. [On a side note - with the loose similarities between what I've been able to learn from my own family of Rom occultism and via my wife's family about Kabbalah - it really almost seems, especially once you factor in some of the physical similarity that the two "tribes" likely came from the same source]
It's rather synonymous to your comment on Native Americans - sure, for tribes like the Iriquois that were agrarian and cared to stay in one place it would make sense - but for the tribes of the Southwest, most of those were nomadic by choice without any desire to have a territory exclusively of their own. To claim that both should have an equal claim to a homeland is a little silly, since one obviously had a history of holding one - while the other did not.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
the problem is the people over there keep waving the flag at the bull with no way to stop it.
they attack and israel retaliates with forceful measure. then it stops and they do it all over again.
it is like kicking a bull in the rump and then getting gored and then crying that the bull gored you.
i just kicked the bull. yeah well the bull got you in return.
you don't want the bull to get you then you don't mess with it.
something the people over there just refuse to understand for some reason.
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Ok first off you need to learn some history here, because you obviously are only looking at it from one point of view.
Israel conquered most of that land during the war. they were attacked and they managed to defeat every nation in one fell swoop and took a bunch of land with it.
over the years and the numerous peace accords israel has given back much of the land that they rightfully took in a military engagement. Yet that has not stopped the bombings or anything else.
finally sick of giving up land and being bombed constantly for it they have taken a different approach. Now if you attack us you are going to pay.
2ndly they have every right to be there as they were run out off of it by the arabs and the nazi's during WWII.
they only took back what was their's to begin with.
look up the 1967 war. it was a 6 day war in which israel beat the snot out of 5 countries with minimal losses.
Why? because the arabs on the area decided to try and run them out with egypt leading the way. a little hint Israel has never lost a war it has fought in.
if you are going to be allies with someone be it with the person that wins all the time.
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I'm having trouble with this and...
this.
See, you (claiming the jews were run off the land in palestine during the second world war by nazis) are a wee tiny tad off on your history. I mean, you are only wrong about the last time there was a jewish state in that land by, oh, one or two thousand years. Were there jews in the land? Yes, but always massively outnumbered.
The last time there was a jewish kingdom in or around Jerusalem was in about 600 AD. Sure, their were lots of jews in palestine at various points, but nothing really significant. Yes, the Arabs were trying to kick the jews off the land in palestine during the war, but no more so than in the ten years preceeding that; it had stuff all to do with the nazis and more because, gee, it was their land.
People are persecuted everywhere and for every imaginable reason. Most of the time no one cares and I don't know why people care about the Jews more than other persecuted peoples like the Roma or Untouchables. The thing is I still think no one really cares about the Jews. If the US and Israel's other allies didn't need it as a strategic base I doubt Israel as we know it today would exist.
The Holy Land is not just Jerusalem, its Israel as a whole. A city can be destroyed or remade time and time again. IMHO the Holy Land is an idea as well as a place but most people just don't seem to get the idea bit. Whereever you choose to bow your head and praise God is the Holy Land and if the Jews are God's chosen people then whereever they go doesn't the Holy Land follow? *shrug* I'm just some crazy agnostic with some romantic ideas about faith I suppose.