So what does the community think? I personally think this is wonderful. A 2,000 page montrous bill is not what the country needs. I believe it would cause more problems than it fixes, not to mention it still wouldn't cover everyone. Which is/was the point.
I personally think they should tackle small bi-partisan issues first and see where and how that does.
When a Republican senator is elected into Ted Kennedy's seat in the Senate in Massachusetts, what does this say about the public's opinion of the Democrats?
Yes, it is safe to say that Obamacare has taken a crippling blow, and let us as a nation breathe a sigh of relief.
I'd recommend actually reading the article - there's one paragraph that implies that they're considering canning it, the rest implies revision of some sort - including the (much saner IMO as I've stated from the beginning) option of breaking it into smaller parts.
Not that reworking on it again would be a bad thing - but overall with the lack of desire for either side of the aisle to break from partisan ranks, I doubt we'll see a bipartisan option ever see the light of day. (Not that many of the "bipartisan" ideas proposed thusfar have been particularly great anyhow)
I wouldn't count it out yet. there are several ways they could get it through, however instead of ignoring the other party they will have to include them and start taking suggestions.
they can try the nuclear option but that will only enrage voters more and basically ruin any democrat from getting into office anytime soon.
on top of that any part of the bill that would not deal with the budget in any way can be challanged and with 41 votes they could pretty much shut down that way.
the only way healthcare is going to pass is if they redo the bill that both sides can agree on. i don't see this happening more so with the more liberal people in the house.
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To make changes in Senate bill to get the 60th vote will peel off some other vote somewhere else on either end of the spectrum. If they appease the far-left members, they risk losing some moderates. If they try to appease moderates, they risk losing some far-left members.
If they go with Reconciliation option, there would probably be an armed march on DC. Seriously. Not to mention Democrats would not be able to count on independent voters for probably a decade or more.
But the well is so poisoned on this I'd be surprised if any sort of meaningful Health Care reform (even small chunks) gets passed before midterms.
But don't worry, they'll still find a way to waste Billions this year.
It's gonna be hard now that the Republicans have a majority.
If they go with Reconciliation option, there would probably be an armed march on DC. Seriously. Not to mention Democrats would not be able to count on independent voters for probably a decade or more.
You mean the reconciliation that was used to force through Bush tax cuts and prescription drug act?
It's gonna be hard now that the Republicans have a majority.
Hilarious, since both the House and Senate Dems could pass anything they wanted the last year without any Republican support and didn't. Republicans couldn't stop anything and the Dems still failed.
Hilarious, since both the House and Senate Dems could pass anything they wanted the last year without any Republican support and didn't. Republicans couldn't stop anything and the Dems still failed.
Progressives tend to not be the homogeneous bunch that republicans fall into. It's harder to achieve legislation when you actually try to solve problems rather than fall back on a platform of "tax cuts for the rich, deregulate, and all our problems will be solved!"
I think it's pretty funny that Scott Brown voted for Massachusetts healthcare which is very similar to the current bill.
Progressives tend to not be the homogeneous bunch that republicans fall into. It's harder to achieve legislation when you actually try to solve problems rather than fall back on a platform of "tax cuts for the rich, deregulate, and all our problems will be solved!"
The GOP is a much more disciplined party, yes, but this is because of better organization, not any inherent homogeneity in their platform. Agree with them or not, the unification of the three great wings of the party - the fiscal conservatives, the religious right, and big business - was a remarkable political achievement on the part of Reagan and Gingrich, all the more so because it still endures (despite some tension which has come to be personified by Mrs. Palin).
Face it, the Dems need to get their act together. I'm saying it, Paul Krugman's saying it, Jon Stewart's saying it, President Obama's saying it. Blaming everything on the opposition isn't going to help them any. But so far, Obama has not been the Democratic Reagan that the party needs - and the less said about Pelosi, the better.
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You mean the reconciliation that was used to force through Bush tax cuts and prescription drug act?
That is what reconciliation is used for. reconciliation is strictly used for budget matters and budget matters only. it is not to be used to force through legislation.
It's harder to achieve legislation when you actually try to solve problems rather than fall back on a platform of "tax cuts for the rich, deregulate, and all our problems will be solved!"
Yet this bill didn't solve any problems and created more issues than what it was going to fix.
I think it's pretty funny that Scott Brown voted for Massachusetts healthcare which is very similar to the current bill.
then he learned his lesson because the MA healthcare for all bill is a complete disaster.
despite some tension which has come to be personified by Mrs. Palin
Actually i think she is a good movement for conseratives in general. She is like a newt in a way. the contract with america was a very huge success and in large part caused a sweep in the house and the senate. they were able to accomplish a lot of the things they wanted including getting a balanced budget.
Even now in the upcoming jobs bill there is an amendment for a balanced budget. if anything she is causing people to look at who they are voting for. i saw an article the other day that said people are ticked at the incumbants no matter if they are republican or democrat. people want congress to listen to them so far they haven't.
democrats simply dismissed their complaints and now they are paying for it.
what change is the best
change just for change sake is not always a good idea.
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That is what reconciliation is used for. reconciliation is strictly used for budget matters and budget matters only. it is not to be used to force through legislation.
Mystery, the Prescription Drug Act was not a "budget matter".
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
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both in their own way have brought a sort of revolution. Newt had a huge effect and his contract with america is probably one of the most successful campaigns that caused a massive swing in congress in which republicans took control for the first time in decades.
Palin is similar in her presentation of what needs to happen in government. that is why she appeals to a broad spectrum of people. the tea party movement is continueing motivated by her leadership to a certain degree.
Mystery, the Prescription Drug Act was not a "budget matter".
The only thing i can find on that was parts of the initial bill were passed with it. the full bill itself was not. not saying that it didn't just saying that is all i can find.
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both in their own way have brought a sort of revolution. Newt had a huge effect and his contract with america is probably one of the most successful campaigns that caused a massive swing in congress in which republicans took control for the first time in decades.
Oh, a person! *wikipedias* Okay, that makes sense.
(If you'd capitalised his name in the original post, I wouldn't have been thinking about salamanders and trying to work out how they related to Palin )
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Mystery, the Prescription Drug Act was not a "budget matter".
Nor was the tax cut example either, technically - since the intent of reconciliation was to allow tax revenue to more easily be INCREASED to prevent shortfalls - not to push through tax cuts. (Not that it's a bad thing that it cuts both ways, but if you go back to information available about the debates that were had on the topic when they first proposed it - it was all to prevent shortfall)
Nor was the tax cut example either, technically - since the intent of reconciliation was to allow tax revenue to more easily be INCREASED to prevent shortfalls - not to push through tax cuts. (Not that it's a bad thing that it cuts both ways, but if you go back to information available about the debates that were had on the topic when they first proposed it - it was all to prevent shortfall)
But that was ok. Now, if reconciliation is used, they are SHOVING IT DOWN OUR THROATS.
But that was ok. Now, if reconciliation is used, they are SHOVING IT DOWN OUR THROATS.
That is because the healthcare bill is not related to budgeting in anyway.
If they do go that route and they can if they want then anything that is not associated to budgeting or debt reduction or taxes goes out the window.
All the regulation that would be in the bill goes out the window. More to the point during this process anyone can bring anything to the table and it all has to be voted on. It is a very messy and horrible process to pass a bill. that is why it is kept to budget issues and only in the case that people would purposely block the budget for some reason.
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what is sad is that dems are using a proccess that this is not meant for to push through a bill that has cost them elections.
what is sad is they still don't get it.
people want real healthcare change. not this drivel which increases costs, lowers the quality of care, bloats more government spending. increases health costs.
that isn't my idea of reform.
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But that was ok. Now, if reconciliation is used, they are SHOVING IT DOWN OUR THROATS.
Yes, Republicans arguing this way are hypocrites. But that doesn't mean you have to be a hypocrite. If you were upset that the Republicans used what you think is a dirty tactic to get their legislation passed, then you ought to be upset that the Democrats might use the same dirty tactic to get their legislation passed. If you think that the Democrats are justified in using the tactic, then you concede that the Republicans were justified in using the tactic.
This, in short, is why tu quoque is a fallacy.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
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I honestly have no idea on the politics of health care, but all I can say is that in the case that Obama fails to deliver, the citizens are going to be just as, if not, more screwed than before in terms of health care, considering how screwed up the economy is and that the current method as to how health care is set up.
However, it does seem like reconciliation is not the solution the Democrats need to power out the health care. I would think splitting it up and the like would help.
A recent politico article http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0210/32619.html
appears to say it is at least on very thin ice.
So what does the community think? I personally think this is wonderful. A 2,000 page montrous bill is not what the country needs. I believe it would cause more problems than it fixes, not to mention it still wouldn't cover everyone. Which is/was the point.
I personally think they should tackle small bi-partisan issues first and see where and how that does.
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Yes, it is safe to say that Obamacare has taken a crippling blow, and let us as a nation breathe a sigh of relief.
Not that reworking on it again would be a bad thing - but overall with the lack of desire for either side of the aisle to break from partisan ranks, I doubt we'll see a bipartisan option ever see the light of day. (Not that many of the "bipartisan" ideas proposed thusfar have been particularly great anyhow)
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
they can try the nuclear option but that will only enrage voters more and basically ruin any democrat from getting into office anytime soon.
on top of that any part of the bill that would not deal with the budget in any way can be challanged and with 41 votes they could pretty much shut down that way.
the only way healthcare is going to pass is if they redo the bill that both sides can agree on. i don't see this happening more so with the more liberal people in the house.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
They don't have the 60 votes.
To make changes in Senate bill to get the 60th vote will peel off some other vote somewhere else on either end of the spectrum. If they appease the far-left members, they risk losing some moderates. If they try to appease moderates, they risk losing some far-left members.
If they go with Reconciliation option, there would probably be an armed march on DC. Seriously. Not to mention Democrats would not be able to count on independent voters for probably a decade or more.
But the well is so poisoned on this I'd be surprised if any sort of meaningful Health Care reform (even small chunks) gets passed before midterms.
But don't worry, they'll still find a way to waste Billions this year.
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they already have obama is projected to run a 1.6 trillion dollar deficit this year. that is with the budget that he submitted.
in fact they already raised the debt limit to 14.3 trillion dollars just to get them through next november.
so much for fiscal responsibility.
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You mean the reconciliation that was used to force through Bush tax cuts and prescription drug act?
Long live democracy. eh?
Hilarious, since both the House and Senate Dems could pass anything they wanted the last year without any Republican support and didn't. Republicans couldn't stop anything and the Dems still failed.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
Progressives tend to not be the homogeneous bunch that republicans fall into. It's harder to achieve legislation when you actually try to solve problems rather than fall back on a platform of "tax cuts for the rich, deregulate, and all our problems will be solved!"
I think it's pretty funny that Scott Brown voted for Massachusetts healthcare which is very similar to the current bill.
The GOP is a much more disciplined party, yes, but this is because of better organization, not any inherent homogeneity in their platform. Agree with them or not, the unification of the three great wings of the party - the fiscal conservatives, the religious right, and big business - was a remarkable political achievement on the part of Reagan and Gingrich, all the more so because it still endures (despite some tension which has come to be personified by Mrs. Palin).
Face it, the Dems need to get their act together. I'm saying it, Paul Krugman's saying it, Jon Stewart's saying it, President Obama's saying it. Blaming everything on the opposition isn't going to help them any. But so far, Obama has not been the Democratic Reagan that the party needs - and the less said about Pelosi, the better.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I disagree. When one of the major tenants or your party is keeping with tradition, it is easier to all have the same views.
Progressives want change, and it is harder to make a large group of people all have the same ideas about what change is the best.
I agree they need to get their act together though.
That is what reconciliation is used for. reconciliation is strictly used for budget matters and budget matters only. it is not to be used to force through legislation.
Yet this bill didn't solve any problems and created more issues than what it was going to fix.
then he learned his lesson because the MA healthcare for all bill is a complete disaster.
Actually i think she is a good movement for conseratives in general. She is like a newt in a way. the contract with america was a very huge success and in large part caused a sweep in the house and the senate. they were able to accomplish a lot of the things they wanted including getting a balanced budget.
Even now in the upcoming jobs bill there is an amendment for a balanced budget. if anything she is causing people to look at who they are voting for. i saw an article the other day that said people are ticked at the incumbants no matter if they are republican or democrat. people want congress to listen to them so far they haven't.
democrats simply dismissed their complaints and now they are paying for it.
change just for change sake is not always a good idea.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Strawman.
Mystery, the Prescription Drug Act was not a "budget matter".
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Right, because the entire reactionary, I mean republican, party does not use that argument.
Its great that you know that word though.
.... two wrongs don't make a right?
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I have to ask - why is Palin like a newt?
both in their own way have brought a sort of revolution. Newt had a huge effect and his contract with america is probably one of the most successful campaigns that caused a massive swing in congress in which republicans took control for the first time in decades.
Palin is similar in her presentation of what needs to happen in government. that is why she appeals to a broad spectrum of people. the tea party movement is continueing motivated by her leadership to a certain degree.
The only thing i can find on that was parts of the initial bill were passed with it. the full bill itself was not. not saying that it didn't just saying that is all i can find.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Oh, a person! *wikipedias* Okay, that makes sense.
(If you'd capitalised his name in the original post, I wouldn't have been thinking about salamanders and trying to work out how they related to Palin )
Nor was the tax cut example either, technically - since the intent of reconciliation was to allow tax revenue to more easily be INCREASED to prevent shortfalls - not to push through tax cuts. (Not that it's a bad thing that it cuts both ways, but if you go back to information available about the debates that were had on the topic when they first proposed it - it was all to prevent shortfall)
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
But that was ok. Now, if reconciliation is used, they are SHOVING IT DOWN OUR THROATS.
That is because the healthcare bill is not related to budgeting in anyway.
If they do go that route and they can if they want then anything that is not associated to budgeting or debt reduction or taxes goes out the window.
All the regulation that would be in the bill goes out the window. More to the point during this process anyone can bring anything to the table and it all has to be voted on. It is a very messy and horrible process to pass a bill. that is why it is kept to budget issues and only in the case that people would purposely block the budget for some reason.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/79423-gop-finds-loophole-in-reconciliation-ploy
what is sad is that dems are using a proccess that this is not meant for to push through a bill that has cost them elections.
what is sad is they still don't get it.
people want real healthcare change. not this drivel which increases costs, lowers the quality of care, bloats more government spending. increases health costs.
that isn't my idea of reform.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Yes, Republicans arguing this way are hypocrites. But that doesn't mean you have to be a hypocrite. If you were upset that the Republicans used what you think is a dirty tactic to get their legislation passed, then you ought to be upset that the Democrats might use the same dirty tactic to get their legislation passed. If you think that the Democrats are justified in using the tactic, then you concede that the Republicans were justified in using the tactic.
This, in short, is why tu quoque is a fallacy.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
However, it does seem like reconciliation is not the solution the Democrats need to power out the health care. I would think splitting it up and the like would help.
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