I got into a pretty heated debate today with my roommate about whether or not it is appropriate for the German government to "heavily restrict" the production and distribution of "unannotated" versions of Mein Kampf, as well as the ban on public displays of the swastika. The topic came up when I heard that the movie posters (as well as the movie itself) for Inglourious Basterds had to be heavily edited before its release in German theaters.
I find it absolutely ridiculous that the German public don't have complete, fully legal access to a book so influential in their own goddamned history like Mein Kampf. Regardless of whether or not the majority of Germans wish to actually read it, it should be made available for them to understand that dark time in the world's history just as much as (if not more than) it is for some random American high-schooler in a history class. The way to move on from a point in your history is not to pretend it didn't happen; that's like lying about your medical history to a doctor because you "got rid" of your cancer a few years back and you've moved on. Instead, you have to face it and understand it so that you don't repeat the same mistakes again.
My friend, however, has no problem with this censorship. He argues that there is no reason to have this constant reminder of quite possibly the worst mass-violation of human rights in modern human history (as well as a huge embarrassment) in everyone's face all the time, and that lifting the ban is unnecessary and would only create problems.
1) Ideas, no matter how repugnant, ought not to be made criminal; more free speech is always better.
2) Censoring an idea does not get rid of it. If anything, it gives ammunition to those who espouse the idea.
3) And from a purely historical perspective: we already **** with history enough, through propaganda, there's no reason to make it worse. As you say, pretending it didn't happen doesn't change the fact that it did.
Personally, I'm very pro-information so any banning of informative literature is strictly against my ethos, especially one as globally influential as an autobiography of the man who has had the largest impact on the world in almost a millenia.
Also the censorship of 'correct' usages of manji-eske symbols and even actual swastika in historical tales. If a movie is set in WWII Germany I expect to see it everywhere, anything less would be insulting to those who fought both for and against what it meant. I think that pretty much sums up my opinion on it, covering anything like that up denies the repect the fallen deserve, regarless of why, when or where they fell.
We're American, so our opinion is completely irrelevant. We take all our freedoms for granted, and just have to accept that things are different in other countries.
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Its amusing that they do this because it is the exact behaviors the Nazis had. Things like making denying the Holocaust an illegal act. Silly. Now all reasonable, educated and intelligent people would never do it in the first place. But if some one wants to believe it never happened, well that is their right to be an idiot. Stifling the free speech of people is not the answer because it sets a precedent that hurts even one's rights.
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We're American, so our opinion is completely irrelevant.
Well, considering the history of our country, I'd say our opinions regarding international politics and domestic policies of foreign countries is highly relevant. But the relevancy of our opinions, however, is irrelevant.
It's a true saying. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
Germany should not, whether it is for shame or for outrage, try to hide from its past. Only by acknowledging it and learning from it can it ensure that such things will not happen again.
I'd be willing to concede that an aggressively illiberal crackdown on fascist ideology was necessary in the immediate postwar period of "de-Nazification" (and furthermore that Japan would have well served by a similar process). And I would like to emphasize to some on this thread that German education about the Third Reich is comprehensive to the point of masochism; they are certainly not hiding from their past. But I do think the time has long since come for Germany (and other European countries with equivalent laws) to embrace the fundamental right that is freedom of speech and conscience.
I'd be willing to concede that an aggressively illiberal crackdown on fascist ideology was necessary in the immediate postwar period of "de-Nazification" (and furthermore that Japan would have well served by a similar process). And I would like to emphasize to some on this thread that German education about the Third Reich is comprehensive to the point of masochism; they are certainly not hiding from their past. But I do think the time has long since come for Germany (and other European countries with equivalent laws) to embrace the fundamental right that is freedom of speech and conscience.
Don't say things like this. Seriously. Modern Germans aren't rounding up Jews and killing them by the millions, or trying to conquer Europe.
The point is, it's still quite polarizing.
FYI, there is a growing groundswell of minority hate in most of Europe right now, against everyone from Turks, to north Africans, to Gypsies, to Jews. I don't think that has much to do with the current issue though.
It's still fresh in the minds of a vocal minority of native Germans, and other Europeans living and working in Germany. Although some of these people are old, they are influential voters and foreign investors.
While there are certainly cases where this kind of censorship is going overboard (would Raiders of the Lost Ark be the same if sanitized of Nazi symbolism?), the swaztika and Nazi texts are still employed today by hate groups to recruit members and incite violence. It is not just a symbol of an era of mass evil perpetrated by a particular regime, it is a real threat to the safety of minorities. It's not "just an idea", it's a symbol that has an unusally strong ability to make people feel threatened. It is also a symbol that evokes hatred toward Germany on a national and international scale; while other societies may get away with fringe groups embracing Nazi ideals, if Germany does it it's going to make a lot of people with a lot of bombs very, very nervous. Further, it has no redeeming value; one can learn from history without actually reading Mein Kampf or flying a swaztika flag.
In other words, there is a very sound and practical reason why Germany shouldn't want it's citizens displaying Nazi pride. Categorically decrying this degree of censorship because in some cases it goes to far is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
You also have to remember there are still people alive who fought in the war and still maybe fanatical about nazism. Even if they're 90 years old and might fall over in a stiff wind, you don't want to give them a reminder...
Its easy to look from the outside in and ridicule the censorship, but Germany was the seat of the Nazis and was entangled with their politics. Being at the center of the matter, they have to take stricter measures than other countries have.
So if I were to say "you're a complete douchebag who has his head up his ass so far he's using his own eyeballs as glasses," you'd simply shrug it off?
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It is sympathetic but it is still a tremendous violation on freedom of speech. The German State should not decide what its people are or aren't allowed to read, write or speak.
It's very ironic, because this is fascist behavior aimed at censoring fascism. If you really dislike fascism then stop acting like fascists.
Also, imagine the possibility that a more dangerous element in German society may come into power at some point down the line. Now they've got censorship authority built in, it's a lot easier for them to trample over your rights. Suddenly newspapers objecting to the German State would be labeled "hate speech" and banned.
Censorship in any form is bad. I'm one of those people who, while I might not agree with everyone, believes that everyone has a right to their beliefs and opinions. As long as those people are not violating the rights of another person, inflicting harm, or such I will stand up for anyone to do, think, and believe as they do. How can you be truly free if you place these sorts of restrictions on people? I think that many people have become overly sensitized and in the pursuit of "liberalism", acceptance, and "multi-culturalism" have lost site of what that really means. If a Klansmen (for example) chooses to be a part of that organization, believe what he does, and fly a Confederate flag on his property, that is his choice. If that same man beats an innocent black man or burns a cross in someones yard, that is wrong and a violation of the other mans rights and life.
The Swastika in particular is one of humanity's oldest symbol, originally a solar wheel and a symbol of life. I don't think it is right that even 65 years later we just let the Nazis have it and it remains one of the greatest symbols of evil in the world. Shame on us all...
While there are certainly cases where this kind of censorship is going overboard (would Raiders of the Lost Ark be the same if sanitized of Nazi symbolism?), the swaztika and Nazi texts are still employed today by hate groups to recruit members and incite violence. It is not just a symbol of an era of mass evil perpetrated by a particular regime, it is a real threat to the safety of minorities.
Exactly.
In other words, there is a very sound and practical reason why Germany shouldn't want it's citizens displaying Nazi pride. Categorically decrying this degree of censorship because in some cases it goes to far is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Germany allowing its citizens to fly Nazi flags is the same kind of stupid as American Deep South states wanting to fly the (incorrect) battle flag of a failed rebellion from their statehouses, only moreso. The Nazi regime is naturally an enemy to its democratic successor; the state has a right to defend itself against such a threat.
The Swastika in particular is one of humanity's oldest symbol, originally a solar wheel and a symbol of life. I don't think it is right that even 65 years later we just let the Nazis have it and it remains one of the greatest symbols of evil in the world. Shame on us all...
Symbols only have the meaning we attach to them. And sure, I'll agree that it's a shame that a symbol which was once positive was corrupted by evil. But you know what, there are still other symbols of light and life available to use. The concepts of light and life still exist and are as accessible to us today as they ever were. Whether we like it or not, the "hakenkreuz" is almost certainly going to remain permanently defined as a symbol of utter evil. Anyone attempting now to use it for its original purpose is guilty of naivete at best, and cynical disingenuity at worst.
I find it absolutely ridiculous that the German public don't have complete, fully legal access to a book so influential in their own goddamned history like Mein Kampf.
Really? Because there was a point where they did have complete, full legal access to it. It didn't work out well for anyone. At. All.
My understanding is that this used as a means of putting down Nazi groups to make sure they don't gain power again. This I am 100% for.
The Swastika in particular is one of humanity's oldest symbol, originally a solar wheel and a symbol of life. I don't think it is right that even 65 years later we just let the Nazis have it and it remains one of the greatest symbols of evil in the world. Shame on us all...
As I understand, the Swastika is only banned in Germany if used as a Nazi symbol. If used otherwise, 100% ok.
Neo-nazis in Germany still get their fascist fix through underground channels in the form of ****** punk music, Swastika banners, and Mein Kampf super deluxe editions.
Making such things illegal doesn't bar access to them for the violent and non-law abiding individuals who would be influenced by them negatively. It is like the anti gay marriage argument that if legal it would cause everyone to become gay.
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"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
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Rest assured, it would affect me negatively, if Neo-Nazis could openly bear their beloved banner of hatred through the streets and everyone else would be forced to helplessly watch.
No one is forced to watch.
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If it would be publically allowed for everyone to display swastikas, who would make use of that and to which purposes? Can you figure out any positive use of that?
"Public display" isn't just parading around with a huge flag and a microphones in the streets**. It can also mean having the symbol on display in public libraries and museums, being allowed to publish a history book with the symbol in or on it, etc. etc. The point isn't quite as much about the social/political freedoms involved in the exercise of this right; it's more about the educational perspective IMO.
**Note that I'm not entirely sure what exactly is and is not legal in Germany.
If it would be publically allowed for everyone to display swastikas, who would make use of that and to which purposes? Can you figure out any positive use of that?
Absolutely. It indicates that our society takes freedom of speech seriously, that it doesn't like the government declaring that a certain expression of this freedom has no positive use and banning it. Make no mistake, I feel proud that my country and my countrymen can tolerate even a philosophy completely abhorrent to us without resorting to legal intervention or violence. By letting Nazis be Nazis, we demonstrate that we are not Nazis.
(And as a side benefit, we also avoid forcing these groups underground.)
"Public display" isn't just parading around with a huge flag and a microphones in the streets**. It can also mean having the symbol on display in public libraries and museums, being allowed to publish a history book with the symbol in or on it, etc. etc. The point isn't quite as much about the social/political freedoms involved in the exercise of this right; it's more about the educational perspective IMO.
**Note that I'm not entirely sure what exactly is and is not legal in Germany.
It's legal for educational purposes. The drafters of the law weren't idiots.
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I prefer the American system for how we have things like the burning cross. You have the burning cross in books, literature, movies, and it's fairly well known marker for an American terrorist group in particular. Overall though, these crosses do not show up in the mainstream without a heavy context for historicity.
Whenever the burning cross shows up in front of a black family's house it's usually small and innocuous. That and the people involved if they are caught are charged with harassment and other crimes. The deterrents are there with the political stigma of being called a racist.
This to me is fairly stupid since it just makes academic discussion and teaching more complicated. Banning books such as Huckleberry Finn isn't very good either is just arrogant. If a child wants a symbol or to discover a word, the internet within a few seconds will willing confer it's knowledge of racism.
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Well, I believe, it would only intensify the aggressiveness of Neo-Nazi self-portrayal, and also conflicts with those groups that oppose them.
Hey look! A testable claim! See if you can track down some literature on the rates of Nazism-related violence in various countries, and you won't have to qualify your statement with a flimsy "I believe".
To see a swastika in some other place than a museum, film or history book would be highly unsettling to most Germans, i think.
Frankly, I don't care, and you shouldn't either. Living in a free society means tolerating opposing viewpoints, not calling for them to be banned because they "unsettle" you.
It's not just any symbol, but one that stands für 40 million people killed, 6 million of them in a way we cannot even comprehend. We don't want to give such strong tools of emotional communication into the hands of a fascist minority.
"Give"? The state doesn't have the right to take them away.
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I find it absolutely ridiculous that the German public don't have complete, fully legal access to a book so influential in their own goddamned history like Mein Kampf. Regardless of whether or not the majority of Germans wish to actually read it, it should be made available for them to understand that dark time in the world's history just as much as (if not more than) it is for some random American high-schooler in a history class. The way to move on from a point in your history is not to pretend it didn't happen; that's like lying about your medical history to a doctor because you "got rid" of your cancer a few years back and you've moved on. Instead, you have to face it and understand it so that you don't repeat the same mistakes again.
My friend, however, has no problem with this censorship. He argues that there is no reason to have this constant reminder of quite possibly the worst mass-violation of human rights in modern human history (as well as a huge embarrassment) in everyone's face all the time, and that lifting the ban is unnecessary and would only create problems.
What's your take on the issue?
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2) Censoring an idea does not get rid of it. If anything, it gives ammunition to those who espouse the idea.
3) And from a purely historical perspective: we already **** with history enough, through propaganda, there's no reason to make it worse. As you say, pretending it didn't happen doesn't change the fact that it did.
Also the censorship of 'correct' usages of manji-eske symbols and even actual swastika in historical tales. If a movie is set in WWII Germany I expect to see it everywhere, anything less would be insulting to those who fought both for and against what it meant. I think that pretty much sums up my opinion on it, covering anything like that up denies the repect the fallen deserve, regarless of why, when or where they fell.
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Doing it right is really really really hard.
Free speech is just better. I wonder what Canada would do with it.
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Well, considering the history of our country, I'd say our opinions regarding international politics and domestic policies of foreign countries is highly relevant. But the relevancy of our opinions, however, is irrelevant.
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Germany should not, whether it is for shame or for outrage, try to hide from its past. Only by acknowledging it and learning from it can it ensure that such things will not happen again.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Don't say things like this. Seriously. Modern Germans aren't rounding up Jews and killing them by the millions, or trying to conquer Europe.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
The point is, it's still quite polarizing.
FYI, there is a growing groundswell of minority hate in most of Europe right now, against everyone from Turks, to north Africans, to Gypsies, to Jews. I don't think that has much to do with the current issue though.
It's still fresh in the minds of a vocal minority of native Germans, and other Europeans living and working in Germany. Although some of these people are old, they are influential voters and foreign investors.
While there are certainly cases where this kind of censorship is going overboard (would Raiders of the Lost Ark be the same if sanitized of Nazi symbolism?), the swaztika and Nazi texts are still employed today by hate groups to recruit members and incite violence. It is not just a symbol of an era of mass evil perpetrated by a particular regime, it is a real threat to the safety of minorities. It's not "just an idea", it's a symbol that has an unusally strong ability to make people feel threatened. It is also a symbol that evokes hatred toward Germany on a national and international scale; while other societies may get away with fringe groups embracing Nazi ideals, if Germany does it it's going to make a lot of people with a lot of bombs very, very nervous. Further, it has no redeeming value; one can learn from history without actually reading Mein Kampf or flying a swaztika flag.
In other words, there is a very sound and practical reason why Germany shouldn't want it's citizens displaying Nazi pride. Categorically decrying this degree of censorship because in some cases it goes to far is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
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Its easy to look from the outside in and ridicule the censorship, but Germany was the seat of the Nazis and was entangled with their politics. Being at the center of the matter, they have to take stricter measures than other countries have.
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It's very ironic, because this is fascist behavior aimed at censoring fascism. If you really dislike fascism then stop acting like fascists.
Also, imagine the possibility that a more dangerous element in German society may come into power at some point down the line. Now they've got censorship authority built in, it's a lot easier for them to trample over your rights. Suddenly newspapers objecting to the German State would be labeled "hate speech" and banned.
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Exactly.
Germany allowing its citizens to fly Nazi flags is the same kind of stupid as American Deep South states wanting to fly the (incorrect) battle flag of a failed rebellion from their statehouses, only moreso. The Nazi regime is naturally an enemy to its democratic successor; the state has a right to defend itself against such a threat.
Symbols only have the meaning we attach to them. And sure, I'll agree that it's a shame that a symbol which was once positive was corrupted by evil. But you know what, there are still other symbols of light and life available to use. The concepts of light and life still exist and are as accessible to us today as they ever were. Whether we like it or not, the "hakenkreuz" is almost certainly going to remain permanently defined as a symbol of utter evil. Anyone attempting now to use it for its original purpose is guilty of naivete at best, and cynical disingenuity at worst.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Correct, so why do we let Nazis of all people make this determination for the rest of us?
smoke_Killah
you would, wouldn't you?
Really? Because there was a point where they did have complete, full legal access to it. It didn't work out well for anyone. At. All.
My understanding is that this used as a means of putting down Nazi groups to make sure they don't gain power again. This I am 100% for.
As I understand, the Swastika is only banned in Germany if used as a Nazi symbol. If used otherwise, 100% ok.
Making such things illegal doesn't bar access to them for the violent and non-law abiding individuals who would be influenced by them negatively. It is like the anti gay marriage argument that if legal it would cause everyone to become gay.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
No one is forced to watch.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
"Public display" isn't just parading around with a huge flag and a microphones in the streets**. It can also mean having the symbol on display in public libraries and museums, being allowed to publish a history book with the symbol in or on it, etc. etc. The point isn't quite as much about the social/political freedoms involved in the exercise of this right; it's more about the educational perspective IMO.
**Note that I'm not entirely sure what exactly is and is not legal in Germany.
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Absolutely. It indicates that our society takes freedom of speech seriously, that it doesn't like the government declaring that a certain expression of this freedom has no positive use and banning it. Make no mistake, I feel proud that my country and my countrymen can tolerate even a philosophy completely abhorrent to us without resorting to legal intervention or violence. By letting Nazis be Nazis, we demonstrate that we are not Nazis.
(And as a side benefit, we also avoid forcing these groups underground.)
It's legal for educational purposes. The drafters of the law weren't idiots.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Whenever the burning cross shows up in front of a black family's house it's usually small and innocuous. That and the people involved if they are caught are charged with harassment and other crimes. The deterrents are there with the political stigma of being called a racist.
This to me is fairly stupid since it just makes academic discussion and teaching more complicated. Banning books such as Huckleberry Finn isn't very good either is just arrogant. If a child wants a symbol or to discover a word, the internet within a few seconds will willing confer it's knowledge of racism.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Hey look! A testable claim! See if you can track down some literature on the rates of Nazism-related violence in various countries, and you won't have to qualify your statement with a flimsy "I believe".
Frankly, I don't care, and you shouldn't either. Living in a free society means tolerating opposing viewpoints, not calling for them to be banned because they "unsettle" you.
"Give"? The state doesn't have the right to take them away.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.