Apparently a 12 year old girl died in child birth in Yemen, after being married away for dowry by her poor parents. The man was 24 years old.
She was in labor for 3 days and died of bleeding.
A law put up to raise the age to 17 after a 10 year old girl was beaten and raped by her husband, however its getting delayed due to its violation of Sharia law.
How do you relativists out there view this?
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Don't you see that the whole aim of Moderators is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make infractions literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.
I'm not sure what it is you expect from the "relativists" (or, for that matter, what it is precisely you imagine a relativist to be), but I'm going to go ahead & guess that none of them (are there any?) are going to support the rape of young girls. It's obviously repugnant to any basic moral sense.
It must suck to be a muslim woman in a muslim country. Seriously, you're essentially a slave since the day you're born. You belong to your father and then go on to belong to your husband. Islam is basically built around old men having multiple wives / young wives. However it's not the only religion to make oppressing women part of its dogma.
We live in a world where:
1. A man kidnaps his own daughter, locks her up in his basement for 25 years, rapes her and has seven kids with her, some of whom were locked in the basement during the duration of their developmental years. He claims he was 'born to rape'.
2. A man kidnaps an 11 year old girl, hides her in his backyard for 18 years, and has multiple children with her. His wife was complicit in his actions.
3. A man in England sexually abused his two daughters for a period of over twenty years, had multiple kids with them, and kept moving them around to avoid suspicion.
What do all these events have in common? They all came to light within the past two years and all involve men treating women like less than dirt.
The male sex drive, when channeled in the wrong places, can lead to horrific events. Even the most vicious primal desires spring up through the pavement of society occasionally.
The sad part is that for 99% of history women have been treated as lesser then men, so this is still an unconscious factor governing the behavior of both modern men and women. I could write a book on this subject, and probably will if I become a psychologist, but until then I'll just watch as humanity plods along, shackled by the chains of oppression and destructive male urges.
I'm not sure what it is you expect from the "relativists" (or, for that matter, what it is precisely you imagine a relativist to be), but I'm going to go ahead & guess that none of them (are there any?) are going to support the rape of young girls. It's obviously repugnant to any basic moral sense.
This baffles me as well. It (the OP) is at least partially worded as though challenging a certain populace on the forums to support these horrific actions, crimes or standards.
Regardless of what local custom may dictate, I do not believe it is acceptable for a 10 year old to be expected to give birth to children, and it is a tragedy that this young girl lost her life due to what transpired beyond her control.
At 10 years old she should've been playing with dolls and learning about the world around her.
Further disturbing thoughts; ~9 month gestation period, and there are no guarantees she got pregnant quickly.
you can still be a moral relativist and believe in evil, especially if you're using the word correctly. Moral relativity centralizes only around the subjective over the objective morality; not that there is no evil, but that there is no objective evil.
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My at-a-glance 'isms': (in no particular order)
1. Secular Humanism
2. Secular Millenarianism
a. Singularitarianism
b.Transhumanism
c. secular altruism
A law put up to raise the age to 17 after a 10 year old girl was beaten and raped by her husband, however its getting delayed due to its violation of Sharia law.
We should respect Muslim tradition and tolerate their upholding of their freedom to marry at whatever age they desire. Despite not being common in the Western world, we are always arguing for more freedoms and it may appear conflicting to Yemenis if we argue for freedoms such as freedom of the press and women's rights while arguing to take others away.
Perhaps there could be a restriction on how parents could marry away their children instead, if it's not too much?
Either way, I don't view the age of the girl in direct relation to her death from childbirth. She would probably have survived given that she was in the United States or a Western country.
What do all these events have in common? They all came to light within the past two years and all involve men treating women like less than dirt.
I thought what they all had in common was the disproportionate attention they garnered in the same countries that largely ignore the sexual slavery of hundreds of thousands of girls in East Asia and throughout the developing world.
I mean, I don't want to diminish the suffering of the girls you talked about, but there's this tendency in the Western media to go ****ing ape**** when a nice white girl is abused and to remain totally silent when poor minority girls experience the same or worse.
Quote from Mad Mat »
Relativists think that there is no way to morally judge acts on an absolute basis (i.e. there is no absolute moral guideline to which we can compare acts and hereby determine their morality). Hence, you can't judge what someone does as immoral, because there is no absolute authority to appeal to, except your own (or the one of your culture) and that one has equal merit as any other. So, they say, if within an other culture something occurs that we detest, we just have to accept it as it's part of that culture, just like they will detest some parts of our culture (like how we treat our women as equals to men).
They're also made out of straw and scare birds.
Yeah, exactly. It's an untenable position, which is fine, since no one actually holds it.
EDIT:
Quote from sentimentGX4 »
We should respect Muslim tradition and tolerate their upholding of their freedom to marry at whatever age they desire. Despite not being common in the Western world, we are always arguing for more freedoms and it may appear conflicting to Yemenis if we argue for freedoms such as freedom of the press and women's rights while arguing to take others away.
What about the freedom of the young girls? They don't "desire" it; their parents do; their husbands do. They can in no way be expected to provide informed, reasonable consent for something that is well beyond their ability to understand. If it ain't consensual, it ain't freedom.
I mean, I don't want to diminish the suffering of the girls you talked about, but there's this tendency in the Western media to go ****ing ape**** when a nice white girl is abused and to remain totally silent when poor minority girls experience the same or worse.
Like you said, the US media doesn't cover Taken-type sex slavery rings since they operate so secretly, which is why the examples I gave are shocking, since we in the USA don't have the same point of comparison as someone who might live in a city / country where sex slave trafficking is big.
Either way, I don't view the age of the girl in direct relation to her death from childbirth. She would probably have survived given that she was in the United States or a Western country.
you think it's okay for a twelve year old girl to be sold off and impregnated just because that's someone else's culture and we should respect that?!
And furtheremore, there are health concerns for pregnancies that young. Often biologically the body is not fully developed and it can be dangerous for both the mother and child. Maybe she wouldn't have died if she'd had better heatlh care, but that's speculation really.
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My at-a-glance 'isms': (in no particular order)
1. Secular Humanism
2. Secular Millenarianism
a. Singularitarianism
b.Transhumanism
c. secular altruism
you think it's okay for a twelve year old girl to be sold off and impregnated just because that's someone else's culture and we should respect that?!
And furtheremore, there are health concerns for pregnancies that young. Often biologically the body is not fully developed and it can be dangerous for both the mother and child. Maybe she wouldn't have died if she'd had better heatlh care, but that's speculation really.
12 is too young, period. Even if she had gifted level intelligence and mature beyond her years, which is quite rare, her body cannot handle it.
I am all for having the choice to be a young mother with proper societal support structures for education, nutrition, job advancedment, and a stable home life for the wife to become a proper mother for a healthy family. By young I mean very late teens or early twenties when the body and mind are more ready to take on the burden of children and heal from complications.
The best eggs do go early, which is a strike against waiting for children. But, this is just bestial.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
eggs can be saved can't they, if you're that worried about it? I think an argument for pregnancies starting at 16 could be made- especially in other societies where the psychological impact is mitigated by the culture- although it is still preferable undermost circumstances to wait until later. Twelve, as we both seem to agree, is just way too young under any spectrum.
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My at-a-glance 'isms': (in no particular order)
1. Secular Humanism
2. Secular Millenarianism
a. Singularitarianism
b.Transhumanism
c. secular altruism
Your ignorance about the islam is just offending. Islam is not that different from christianity. So in all muslim countries (Turkye, Morocco, Syrië, Israel) women are getting raped and enslaved by men? Please for christs sake travel to such countries to see how dead wrong you are.
It's more correct than incorrect, unfortunate as that may be. Don't try to pull the guilt card here.
Your ignorance about the islam is just offending. Islam is not that different from christianity. So in all muslim countries (Turkye, Morocco, Syrië, Israel) women are getting raped and enslaved by men? Please for christs sake travel to such countries to see how dead wrong you are.
It's not an unreasonable generalization, even though it is not true in every case.
The answer I want to give to the OP would result in me getting another infraction, then eventually cumulating into another ban, which will have to be longer than 3 months since that's how much I got last time I said something which was not deferential to the religious...
Once excised of its scorn, it basically summarizes to "what do you expect from a religious country?", coupled with an explanation of the fact that the reason why this isn't happening still in the West is that secularists (including most of your Founding Fathers) brought Christians kicking and screaming into the Enlightnment, a fact they are still resenting them for and want to turn back the clock on (I call it "Jyhad Envy").
This makes me 'a relativist', apparently.
Also, that women are 'enslaved to men' in Islamic countries compared to Western Christian countries is a difference of degree, not kind, and again you can thank secularists (and feminists) for having brought about that state of affair against the wishes of Christian powers that be.
It's not an unreasonable generalization, even though it is not true in every case.
There is a significant difference between a "Muslim nation" like Turkey, which has a substantial Muslim majority but largely secular laws, and a theocratic nation like Saudi Arabia, where some version of Sharia Law is in effect.
@ DarkAngel:
No one around here expects you to be "deferential to the religious." But we all do hope that you would strive for accuracy in your criticisms. Which would entail, first of all, not making blanket condemnations of ~90% of the world's populace by lumping them together as "the religious;" and secondly, not making unwarranted generalizations about the diverse constituencies that are Christians, Muslims, etc. Really, it is difficult to say much about Christians as a whole besides that they believe Jesus Christ was God Incarnate (and on the extreme liberal fringes of Christianity, there are exceptions even to this most basic of claims).
I do not believe in an objective morality (to say that there is nothing above man, like "god", to give us our morals and laws)
But I am not a relativist.
I will judge other people...because value judgments are all we have.
Before you go thinking that I am about to say Americas moral compass should guide the world...stop. Because that is not at all what I am saying. Americas compass is so broken its not even funny.
My only point is that things like this are what make me an anti-theist. NOT ONE SINGLE government should let their policies be guided by "voices" in their heads.
We really need to get rid of religious influences in government, everywhere, period. People can believe in flying spaghetti monsters all they want, so long as they leave it at home instead of bringing it to congress.
I also will judge places like Syria, Iran, Pakistan....India....Ukraine.....etc.
There are places in this world that are still stuck in the bronze age.
Everyone, everywhere needs to pull their heads out of the burning bushes, seriously.
We may all have different flags, but we only have one earth. The moral compass, and the laws we have should all be as beneficial to our physical, psychological, and biological well being. Things that break our bones, our hearts, make us bleed, or tear our families apart should be bad...things that mend our bones, our hearts, sew the wounds, and bring us together should be supported, perpetuated, and protected from evil, or from those who mean to harm us.
If a religion makes you feel good, and brings your family together, great, keep it at home, and in your heart....don't blow people up or start crusades.
As far as this poor girl...she was harmed biologically by the actions of D-bags who think a burning bush or some junk gave them the permission to treat other people like human toilets.
How many more years before we put away this age old junk they printed on non-recycled paper thousands of years ago?
Even the bible says
"there is a time to put away childish things"
Well humanity is NOT an infant anymore, time to put away the fairy tales, and wake up. We are still acting like idiots in a sandbox.
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“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
1. A man kidnaps his own daughter, locks her up in his basement for 25 years, rapes her and has seven kids with her, some of whom were locked in the basement during the duration of their developmental years. He claims he was 'born to rape'.
2. A man kidnaps an 11 year old girl, hides her in his backyard for 18 years, and has multiple children with her. His wife was complicit in his actions.
3. A man in England sexually abused his two daughters for a period of over twenty years, had multiple kids with them, and kept moving them around to avoid suspicion.
4. A woman tracks down her biological son (whom she had given away for adoption when he was born, I think) and then has sex with him.
Ewwww. It's not just men, although it's mostly men since they usually have the physical advantage.
We should respect Muslim tradition and tolerate their upholding of their freedom to marry at whatever age they desire. Despite not being common in the Western world, we are always arguing for more freedoms and it may appear conflicting to Yemenis if we argue for freedoms such as freedom of the press and women's rights while arguing to take others away.
Perhaps there could be a restriction on how parents could marry away their children instead, if it's not too much?
Either way, I don't view the age of the girl in direct relation to her death from childbirth. She would probably have survived given that she was in the United States or a Western country.
Yeah, a cultural relativist. No, women's rights would have helped here. Marriage for dowries? Seriously?
Your ignorance about the islam is just offending. Islam is not that different from christianity. So in all muslim countries (Turkye, Morocco, Syrië, Israel) women are getting raped and enslaved by men? Please for christs sake travel to such countries to see how dead wrong you are.
Israel is a Muslim country...?! Wow, have I been misinformed. I think also that there is a distinction between countries who are merely Muslim-dominated and those who are "Islamic republics."
I'd disagree that Islam and Christianity are "not that different" from each other. Seriously, read what Jesus taught and then read what Mohammed wrote.
Well, Jesus said to keep to the old Jewish law, you know, not abolish but fulfill... which includes some pretty gnarly stuff.
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Do I Contradict Myself? Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
The Islam disapproves violence and murder just like christianity does; basically, the islam is a peaceful belief. Indeed, in some countries like Saudi Arabia women are surpressed and stuff but it is not the islam to blame. It is the government of the country itself. And I thought there were a lot of muslims in Israel, but I could be wrong (of course there are christians as well).
Basically, Islam suffers from the same problem as Christianity: in its bid for universality, it can be co-opted by those in power for their own agendas.
But to say islam as a belief is violent and supports violence, is just rubbish. It portays how little you seem to understand about this belief. Sure, it is true that vengeance (but not revenge) is a big part of the islam. But is that necessarily wrong? And also the religion supports love and such things, just like the bible.
It may not be inherently violent, but supposedly neither is Christianity, and we all know how that worked out. As for supporting violence, well, given the current state of affairs in Europe and the Middle East, it certainly doesn't condemn violence strongly enough. (Of course, that's not to say that every single Muslim is only guided by Islam.)
I think not the religions are to blame; but those who use the name of prophets to misbehave; so if women are being bad treaded it is the fault of the culture and government from the country itself, not the islam.
I think you're right, but it certainly seems that not enough people are objecting to this misuse of their religion.
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I think what people are forgetting is that we are not dealing with islam in a way but with sharia law. which is a totally different beast all together.
Sharia law and the countries that enforce it iran, SA, afganistan before the taliban got kicked out. women don't have rights. live stock have a higher place than women do.
Under sharia law we get honor killings and all that other non-sense that goes on.
It has even happened here in the states a father enacted an honor killing. that didn't fly here in the states though and he ended up going to jail.
under sharia law it was perfectly acceptable for them to sell their daughter.
Sharia law condones some pretty nasty stuff and it depends on where you live in the ME how harshly it is enforced.
Again though this goes back to what the people accept. some might not condone it but there is not enough of them to stand up or do anything when you have people with machine guns pointing them at your head.
like it or not this is what gives islam a bad view to most people.
although there is a push in congress and other places that muslims what their own sharia courts here in the US which i find just appalling.
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Again, its a case of their pre-Islamic culture seeping over into the interpretation of the religion.
It is still there and in some places it is enforced to the extreme such as in SA, Iran, and in afganistan before the US went in and chased out the taliban.
Again, I'd love to see a reference for this statement. I already went over why it isn't lawful to sell your daughter for a dowry (it basically boils down to the father ignoring his obligations to his children - their right to be clothed, given shelter, fed, be given protection, and an education.)
What you think is lawful or not doesn't matter. It was there law allows. I think it was just a few months ago or last year a muslim priest in either SA or iran (i think it was SA) gave consent to this type of thing when the story first broke that a muslim man had wedded a 13 or 14 year old girl.
Technically he isn't ignoring his obligation as a married women she will be clothed, given shelter, fed and protected and given what education she will be allowed to have.
you have to understand that sharia law in some places is the ultimate authority. if you are a women and live there you have to obey the rules or you will be punished to the point of death if it is permissable.
I agree with this. Unfortunately most people (Muslims included) can't seem to separate what comes from Islam, and what comes from their pre-Islamic culture. In my opinion it's quite inane to expect non-Muslims to give Islam a fair chance when we (Muslims) don't even bother pointing out what comes from the religion, and what doesn't. Then again, you'd have to find someone who is actually willing to listen, which is becoming increasingly harder and harder to do.
It isn't a matter of separation as a matter they don't have a choice. They either live or die by the law that the government or whatever extremist group chooses to oppress them with.
Until the muslim people start rejecting these extremist groups that are hell bent on destroying everyone that does not hold their views the world will continue to see islam in that fashion. the problem is it is getting worse.
as i said before there are muslim groups in the US that are wanting to enact sharia law courts in our country which i find totally unacceptable. They want to be judged by the standards of sharia law instead of what our country says which again i find totally unacceptable.
this girl died because of some stupid law. in the US the man would have been arrested and thrown in jail for 25 years for child abuse, contributing to the deliquency of a minor, sexual assault on a minor, sexual battery on a minor, engaging in sexual acts with a minor and a slew of other felony charges.
over there nothing will happen to him at all. he will walk even though he technically murdered that poor girl.
so yea it is kinda hard to push past things when the muslim community itself doesn't want to do anything about it.
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http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/14/yemen.childbirth.death/index.html
Apparently a 12 year old girl died in child birth in Yemen, after being married away for dowry by her poor parents. The man was 24 years old.
She was in labor for 3 days and died of bleeding.
A law put up to raise the age to 17 after a 10 year old girl was beaten and raped by her husband, however its getting delayed due to its violation of Sharia law.
How do you relativists out there view this?
I'm not sure what it is you expect from the "relativists" (or, for that matter, what it is precisely you imagine a relativist to be), but I'm going to go ahead & guess that none of them (are there any?) are going to support the rape of young girls. It's obviously repugnant to any basic moral sense.
We live in a world where:
1. A man kidnaps his own daughter, locks her up in his basement for 25 years, rapes her and has seven kids with her, some of whom were locked in the basement during the duration of their developmental years. He claims he was 'born to rape'.
2. A man kidnaps an 11 year old girl, hides her in his backyard for 18 years, and has multiple children with her. His wife was complicit in his actions.
3. A man in England sexually abused his two daughters for a period of over twenty years, had multiple kids with them, and kept moving them around to avoid suspicion.
What do all these events have in common? They all came to light within the past two years and all involve men treating women like less than dirt.
The male sex drive, when channeled in the wrong places, can lead to horrific events. Even the most vicious primal desires spring up through the pavement of society occasionally.
The sad part is that for 99% of history women have been treated as lesser then men, so this is still an unconscious factor governing the behavior of both modern men and women. I could write a book on this subject, and probably will if I become a psychologist, but until then I'll just watch as humanity plods along, shackled by the chains of oppression and destructive male urges.
This baffles me as well. It (the OP) is at least partially worded as though challenging a certain populace on the forums to support these horrific actions, crimes or standards.
Regardless of what local custom may dictate, I do not believe it is acceptable for a 10 year old to be expected to give birth to children, and it is a tragedy that this young girl lost her life due to what transpired beyond her control.
At 10 years old she should've been playing with dolls and learning about the world around her.
Further disturbing thoughts; ~9 month gestation period, and there are no guarantees she got pregnant quickly.
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1. Secular Humanism
2. Secular Millenarianism
b.Transhumanism
c. secular altruism
4. Existentialism
5. Intellectualism
6. Atheism
7. Realism
b. philosophic
c. contructive
9. Egalitarianism
b. feminism
11. Liberal conservatism
12. Anti-consumerism
13. Reductionism
We should respect Muslim tradition and tolerate their upholding of their freedom to marry at whatever age they desire. Despite not being common in the Western world, we are always arguing for more freedoms and it may appear conflicting to Yemenis if we argue for freedoms such as freedom of the press and women's rights while arguing to take others away.
Perhaps there could be a restriction on how parents could marry away their children instead, if it's not too much?
Either way, I don't view the age of the girl in direct relation to her death from childbirth. She would probably have survived given that she was in the United States or a Western country.
I thought what they all had in common was the disproportionate attention they garnered in the same countries that largely ignore the sexual slavery of hundreds of thousands of girls in East Asia and throughout the developing world.
I mean, I don't want to diminish the suffering of the girls you talked about, but there's this tendency in the Western media to go ****ing ape**** when a nice white girl is abused and to remain totally silent when poor minority girls experience the same or worse.
Yeah, exactly. It's an untenable position, which is fine, since no one actually holds it.
EDIT:
What about the freedom of the young girls? They don't "desire" it; their parents do; their husbands do. They can in no way be expected to provide informed, reasonable consent for something that is well beyond their ability to understand. If it ain't consensual, it ain't freedom.
Like you said, the US media doesn't cover Taken-type sex slavery rings since they operate so secretly, which is why the examples I gave are shocking, since we in the USA don't have the same point of comparison as someone who might live in a city / country where sex slave trafficking is big.
you think it's okay for a twelve year old girl to be sold off and impregnated just because that's someone else's culture and we should respect that?!
And furtheremore, there are health concerns for pregnancies that young. Often biologically the body is not fully developed and it can be dangerous for both the mother and child. Maybe she wouldn't have died if she'd had better heatlh care, but that's speculation really.
1. Secular Humanism
2. Secular Millenarianism
b.Transhumanism
c. secular altruism
4. Existentialism
5. Intellectualism
6. Atheism
7. Realism
b. philosophic
c. contructive
9. Egalitarianism
b. feminism
11. Liberal conservatism
12. Anti-consumerism
13. Reductionism
12 is too young, period. Even if she had gifted level intelligence and mature beyond her years, which is quite rare, her body cannot handle it.
I am all for having the choice to be a young mother with proper societal support structures for education, nutrition, job advancedment, and a stable home life for the wife to become a proper mother for a healthy family. By young I mean very late teens or early twenties when the body and mind are more ready to take on the burden of children and heal from complications.
The best eggs do go early, which is a strike against waiting for children. But, this is just bestial.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
1. Secular Humanism
2. Secular Millenarianism
b.Transhumanism
c. secular altruism
4. Existentialism
5. Intellectualism
6. Atheism
7. Realism
b. philosophic
c. contructive
9. Egalitarianism
b. feminism
11. Liberal conservatism
12. Anti-consumerism
13. Reductionism
It's more correct than incorrect, unfortunate as that may be. Don't try to pull the guilt card here.
It's not an unreasonable generalization, even though it is not true in every case.
Once excised of its scorn, it basically summarizes to "what do you expect from a religious country?", coupled with an explanation of the fact that the reason why this isn't happening still in the West is that secularists (including most of your Founding Fathers) brought Christians kicking and screaming into the Enlightnment, a fact they are still resenting them for and want to turn back the clock on (I call it "Jyhad Envy").
This makes me 'a relativist', apparently.
Also, that women are 'enslaved to men' in Islamic countries compared to Western Christian countries is a difference of degree, not kind, and again you can thank secularists (and feminists) for having brought about that state of affair against the wishes of Christian powers that be.
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There is a significant difference between a "Muslim nation" like Turkey, which has a substantial Muslim majority but largely secular laws, and a theocratic nation like Saudi Arabia, where some version of Sharia Law is in effect.
@ DarkAngel:
No one around here expects you to be "deferential to the religious." But we all do hope that you would strive for accuracy in your criticisms. Which would entail, first of all, not making blanket condemnations of ~90% of the world's populace by lumping them together as "the religious;" and secondly, not making unwarranted generalizations about the diverse constituencies that are Christians, Muslims, etc. Really, it is difficult to say much about Christians as a whole besides that they believe Jesus Christ was God Incarnate (and on the extreme liberal fringes of Christianity, there are exceptions even to this most basic of claims).
But I am not a relativist.
I will judge other people...because value judgments are all we have.
Before you go thinking that I am about to say Americas moral compass should guide the world...stop. Because that is not at all what I am saying. Americas compass is so broken its not even funny.
My only point is that things like this are what make me an anti-theist. NOT ONE SINGLE government should let their policies be guided by "voices" in their heads.
We really need to get rid of religious influences in government, everywhere, period. People can believe in flying spaghetti monsters all they want, so long as they leave it at home instead of bringing it to congress.
I also will judge places like Syria, Iran, Pakistan....India....Ukraine.....etc.
There are places in this world that are still stuck in the bronze age.
Everyone, everywhere needs to pull their heads out of the burning bushes, seriously.
We may all have different flags, but we only have one earth. The moral compass, and the laws we have should all be as beneficial to our physical, psychological, and biological well being. Things that break our bones, our hearts, make us bleed, or tear our families apart should be bad...things that mend our bones, our hearts, sew the wounds, and bring us together should be supported, perpetuated, and protected from evil, or from those who mean to harm us.
If a religion makes you feel good, and brings your family together, great, keep it at home, and in your heart....don't blow people up or start crusades.
As far as this poor girl...she was harmed biologically by the actions of D-bags who think a burning bush or some junk gave them the permission to treat other people like human toilets.
How many more years before we put away this age old junk they printed on non-recycled paper thousands of years ago?
Even the bible says
"there is a time to put away childish things"
Well humanity is NOT an infant anymore, time to put away the fairy tales, and wake up. We are still acting like idiots in a sandbox.
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“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
4. A woman tracks down her biological son (whom she had given away for adoption when he was born, I think) and then has sex with him.
Ewwww. It's not just men, although it's mostly men since they usually have the physical advantage.
Yeah, a cultural relativist. No, women's rights would have helped here. Marriage for dowries? Seriously?
Israel is a Muslim country...?! Wow, have I been misinformed. I think also that there is a distinction between countries who are merely Muslim-dominated and those who are "Islamic republics."
Well, Jesus said to keep to the old Jewish law, you know, not abolish but fulfill... which includes some pretty gnarly stuff.
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
Wow, that wasn't snide and condescending or anything...
way to start out the discussion with a preemptive argumentum ad hominem there...
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Basically, Islam suffers from the same problem as Christianity: in its bid for universality, it can be co-opted by those in power for their own agendas.
It may not be inherently violent, but supposedly neither is Christianity, and we all know how that worked out. As for supporting violence, well, given the current state of affairs in Europe and the Middle East, it certainly doesn't condemn violence strongly enough. (Of course, that's not to say that every single Muslim is only guided by Islam.)
But in countries where Islam advises the rule of law (Islamic republic), not so much. Which gives credence to your next bit:
I think you're right, but it certainly seems that not enough people are objecting to this misuse of their religion.
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
Sharia law and the countries that enforce it iran, SA, afganistan before the taliban got kicked out. women don't have rights. live stock have a higher place than women do.
Under sharia law we get honor killings and all that other non-sense that goes on.
It has even happened here in the states a father enacted an honor killing. that didn't fly here in the states though and he ended up going to jail.
under sharia law it was perfectly acceptable for them to sell their daughter.
Sharia law condones some pretty nasty stuff and it depends on where you live in the ME how harshly it is enforced.
Again though this goes back to what the people accept. some might not condone it but there is not enough of them to stand up or do anything when you have people with machine guns pointing them at your head.
like it or not this is what gives islam a bad view to most people.
although there is a push in congress and other places that muslims what their own sharia courts here in the US which i find just appalling.
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It is still there and in some places it is enforced to the extreme such as in SA, Iran, and in afganistan before the US went in and chased out the taliban.
What you think is lawful or not doesn't matter. It was there law allows. I think it was just a few months ago or last year a muslim priest in either SA or iran (i think it was SA) gave consent to this type of thing when the story first broke that a muslim man had wedded a 13 or 14 year old girl.
Technically he isn't ignoring his obligation as a married women she will be clothed, given shelter, fed and protected and given what education she will be allowed to have.
you have to understand that sharia law in some places is the ultimate authority. if you are a women and live there you have to obey the rules or you will be punished to the point of death if it is permissable.
It isn't a matter of separation as a matter they don't have a choice. They either live or die by the law that the government or whatever extremist group chooses to oppress them with.
Until the muslim people start rejecting these extremist groups that are hell bent on destroying everyone that does not hold their views the world will continue to see islam in that fashion. the problem is it is getting worse.
as i said before there are muslim groups in the US that are wanting to enact sharia law courts in our country which i find totally unacceptable. They want to be judged by the standards of sharia law instead of what our country says which again i find totally unacceptable.
this girl died because of some stupid law. in the US the man would have been arrested and thrown in jail for 25 years for child abuse, contributing to the deliquency of a minor, sexual assault on a minor, sexual battery on a minor, engaging in sexual acts with a minor and a slew of other felony charges.
over there nothing will happen to him at all. he will walk even though he technically murdered that poor girl.
so yea it is kinda hard to push past things when the muslim community itself doesn't want to do anything about it.
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