THere is a substantial group of people know as "Arab-Israelis" who enjoy every right that other Israelis enjoy except for the right to serve in the military. They have representation in the Knesset and everything. The group has existed since Israel became a country. I don't know exactly what's required to gain the staus of Arab-Israeli, though.
Apparently Hamas has stepped up its rocket attacks. I have no idea what they're trying to achieve at this point. They're not affecting Israel's military capability at all and the continued attacks are likely to provoke more action from the Israeli military.
Off course, they have, in general, a better quality of life than the arabs in the West Bank and Gaza, to not mention other countries. But this "Arab Isrealis" also suffer discrimination when looking for jobs and other activities in the common life, and arent totally equall to the law in the coutnry. Its hard to be muslim or Arab in a country that mention that is a democracy, but give priviledges and bonifications to people of ONE religion in special.
Ex: I am an atheist. I want to ask the Israeli citizenship. The process will be long, hard, and i will be on my own. But, if i mention that i am of jewish religion, or a descendant of jewish people, doors open everywhere for me.
I would not want to live in a country where there are first and second class citizens.
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Off course, they have, in general, a better quality of life than the arabs in the West Bank and Gaza, to not mention other countries. But this "Arab Isrealis" also suffer discrimination when looking for jobs and other activities in the common life, and arent totally equall to the law in the coutnry. Its hard to be muslim or Arab in a country that mention that is a democracy, but give priviledges and bonifications to people of ONE religion in special.
Ex: I am an atheist. I want to ask the Israeli citizenship. The process will be long, hard, and i will be on my own. But, if i mention that i am of jewish religion, or a descendant of jewish people, doors open everywhere for me.
I would not want to live in a country where there are first and second class citizens.
Well given that is it chartered as a Jewish state, this isn't exactly surprising:stupid: Some countries give preference to Muslims, others to Christians. I don't get the shock.
@ (N_S): fair enough. I would point out though that Israel has one of the best intelligence agencies in the world. If they think there are weapons there then there are probably weapons there.
Well given that is it chartered as a Jewish state, this isn't exactly surprising:stupid: .
Thing, i think, its the main problem, the root of the problem. I think, that in the 48, instead of two states, the most logical option was to create a single and democratic country, not chartered to be a jew or muslim state, but a new country. I still think is the best choice.Make a new country with the palestinian and the israeli. You say it, arabs, be christian or muslim can live (and lived for many years) with jews. The problem begins when one of the religions wants to be the boss.
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No, Israel does not go out of their way to avoid civilian casualties. If they did then they would not even have considered using air strikes to target the leaders, factories and training grounds of Hamas. They would then instead have sent in special forces. When you drop bombs on buildings where you know that there will most likely be civilians (like in a dense population centre) you deliberately target civilians even if they are not the stated target.
I know I am kind of putting my two sense in the middle of a conversation that goes back farther than I have the patience to read, but here is what I know.
I know that I came to Israel to advance my religious studies.
I know that I have been to Sderot to help run a carnival for children who are the victims of terror attacks- attacks that left them without a parent or two.
I know that I have friends closer to the epicenter of the war who are studying inside while ROCKET ALARMS sound all around them.
I know that I have friends in the Israeli Army.
I know that a good 40% of the school that I am studying in right now where just called in for Army Service. That means that the kid (and I stress kid, cuz' I'm talking about a 20 yer old) who sat next to me in class, who told jokes to me, whent out to lunch with me, dormed with me, is going off in the very same "special forces" you where talking about.
Anyone who thinks that a country should send it's 20 year olds into Gaza, one of the most densely populated places on earth, before clearing some sort of path is seriously disturbed.
Now the bed next to mine in my dorm room is empty, and what do I do?
I have to call up my friend learning in Kerem B'Yavneh, a school just out of range of the rockets that are being fired into Israel, and tell him that if he is scared he can stay in Jerusalem with me, where the danger is only in Riots, not rockets.
Anyone who thinks that my friends in the Israeli Army are cruel, or terrorists should get their heads checked.
I severely regret the loss of life in Gaza, Palestenian or otherwise. No family should ever have to go on without a father. No family should ever have to take cover in a bomb shelter.
No 20 year old kid should ever have to walk into a territory that he may not come out of.
And I myself should not have to voulenteer my time to help a 7 year old celebrate a holiday without his father, in sight of his destroyed house.
I take offense to one who would have "special forces" just waltz into a war zone. Are there not enough weeping children that we must add weeping mothers?
Well it's too bad I don't know any of these 5yo children I saw in the TV news, dead in an hospital without water nor electricity. I could have shared some even sadder stories
How many civilians are these tanks and artillery shells kill, becoming just another statistic called "collateral damage"?
The blame for that again falls squarely on Hamas. If they didn't use civilians as human shields for their troops and weapons, how many fewer casualties would there be?
[quote=( N_S );/comments/10995581]Well it's too bad I don't know any of these 5yo children I saw in the TV news, dead in an hospital without water nor electricity. I could have shared some even sadder stories
Its realy not a contest of who has the bigger sob story. I was just telling mine.
I am sorry for all the children and adults who have died. I would never say that a less violent path would be worse. I compleatly agree that bloodshed is terrible, no matter whose blood is shed.
I just thought it was innapropriate for someone on a M:TG forum to be directing military operations in the Middle East. I gave a personal account to underline the complexity of the situiation. Remind people that footsoldiers are people too. They should not be thought of as "Tanks and Guns" that are just killing people arbitrarily.
I think that ideally there shouldn't be any soldiering going on but if Israel absolutely has to somehow assassinate Hamas leaders I am simply pointing out that massive air strikes followed by artillery and then a ground invasion is incredibly callous and inefficient in every way.
If it's so easy, then you do it. Show us your bloodless way to end this conflict. Until you can do that, maybe you should let the Israelis take care of themselves. They have been doing it for sixty years now, so they have more experiece. How exactly you think Israeli blackops are going to waltz into Gaza, take out their key targets, and walk back out is beyong me. There's also the issue of blowing weapons depots and so on, which is really impossible to do without damaging the surrounding area.
It's quite puzzling to me that people still say that Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians or carpet bombing or whatever. Given the might of the Israeli airforce if they were really bombing indiscriminately then Palestinians would be counting their casualties in thousands, not hundreds and the overwhelming majority of the dead would be civilians, not militants.
Thing, i think, its the main problem, the root of the problem. I think, that in the 48, instead of two states, the most logical option was to create a single and democratic country, not chartered to be a jew or muslim state, but a new country. I still think is the best choice.Make a new country with the palestinian and the israeli. You say it, arabs, be christian or muslim can live (and lived for many years) with jews. The problem begins when one of the religions wants to be the boss.
I'm Jewish. You're preaching to the choir here. There are many reasons why I believe America is a better country than Israel, and this is one of them. Looking at the situation realistically though, Israel is a Jewish state and that's not likely to change. Any solution should keep that firmly in mind.
A) Cease all military operations in Gaza
B) Lift the Economic blockade to Gaza
C) Engage in unconditional peace talks with the democratically elected government of Gaza: Hamas.
That might be a head start in ending the conflict bloodlessly.
D) Hamas stops firing rockets, recognizes Israel's rights to exist, and denounces terrorism.
Bloodlessly has to include Israeli blood, too. For some reason everyone seems to overlook that.
I'm Jewish. You're preaching to the choir here. There are many reasons why I believe America is a better country than Israel, and this is one of them. Looking at the situation realistically though, Israel is a Jewish state and that's not likely to change. Any solution should keep that firmly in mind.
And there also lies the problem. America does indeed believe it's a better country. Hell, it thought it was so much better that it believed it was just to take land from people and give it to others, saying it was now their land. And while this might sound like a decent thing to do, let me ask you this. There were a lot more victims then just Jews. Homosexuals and gypsies were also put in those same camps, but did they ever get any kind of compensation?
The Israeli didn't get that land in a way that could be labelled as justified. The land was taken from the Palestinian by someone who was in no position to do so.
Any solution should keep in mind that all people, no matter their believes, ideologies, race or gender, are equal and should be treated as such. No person has more right to live in a certain place than another person. This should be the centre of future treaties.
D) Hamas stops firing rockets, recognizes Israel's rights to exist, and denounces terrorism.
The Hamas would have no reason to keep firing rockets if those things were done. If they did though, I think they'd quickly lose all support they have.
A) Cease all military operations in Gaza
B) Lift the Economic blockade to Gaza
C) Engage in unconditional peace talks with the democratically elected government of Gaza: Hamas.
That might be a head start in ending the conflict bloodlessly.
Article 13, Hamas Charter:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know.
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?
"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:
"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."
There can be no peaceful reconciliation with Hamas. Only such warfare as Israel is now waging can bring about peace, albeit a Tacitean one.
A) Cease all military operations in Gaza
B) Lift the Economic blockade to Gaza
C) Engage in unconditional peace talks with the democratically elected government of Gaza: Hamas.
That might be a head start in ending the conflict bloodlessly.
You dont think that negotiation has been tried? You know why it doesn't work? You cannot negotiate with terrorists! Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Israel has every right to defend itself. Why is Israel not a terrorist state? It does not TARGET civilians. Hamas TARGETS civilians, and hides behind them. The objective of Hamas in hiding behind civilians is to create this kind of publicity, to force Israels hand, so that if Israel wants to protect its own, it must go through these civilians, i.e. Hamas is using these civilians as human sacrifices!!! When will Hamas be accountable for this?
The blame for that again falls squarely on Isreal. If they didn't indiscriminately bomb heavy populated areas and allowed the Palestinian people to have some elementary dignity, how many fewer Isreali rocket/terrorism casualties would there be
I really think that Hamas should be giving the Palestinians their elementary dignity back, rather than using them as human shields. And the reason why there are not enough supplies in hospitals, and the reason why there is terrible infrastructure in Gaza is due to the millions of dollars that ISRAEL, and the entire world gives to Hamas for aid is squandered in TERRORIST activities.
I do not agree with every action Israel takes, but i do strongly believe it has the right to defend itself.
And the reason why there are not enough supplies in hospitals, and the reason why there is terrible infrastructure in Gaza is due to the millions of dollars that ISRAEL, and the entire world gives to Hamas for aid is squandered in TERRORIST activities.
No, the reason why there are not enough supplies is because Israel has closed the border to the Gaza Strip for any humanitarian aid.
You mean the people who elected Hamas to lead them?
Because they addressed the problem at hand, the way they are treated by the Israeli and a large part of the western community. They would have no reason to re-elect or even consider them as their leaders if an acceptable treaty was made.
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We have laboured long to build a heaven, only to find it populated with horrors.
I really don't think any conventional kind of diplomatic remedy can possibly work here... at least nothing imposed from without. And unless Palestine can produce a person of a Nelson Mandela-like moral stature -- someone loved and trusted by the Palestinian people, with an authentic commitment to peace without vengeance -- I don't see an answer arising from within the crisis either.
The Palestinians have of course suffered the brunt of the casualties; but what's Hamas been doing this whole time (and before the current Israeli offensive began)? Firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel. That's no way to establish a moral high ground.
My proposal for peace (and this may sound insane, but that's par for the course in the Middle East): Israel returns all land it took during 1967's Six-Day War, puts an end to sanctions against the Palestinians and gives them their own autonomous state; and then we make Israel the fifty-first American state. Iran, Syria, etc. already claim that the U.S.A. + Israel is a double-headed Satan; so let's make it so in fact. Any attack on Israel is now an attack on America. Conversely, if the hostile Arab regimes can swallow their pride enough to finally accept Israel's existence (or at least to admit the futility of overt military action against the United States), there's the potential for a whole new level of economic expansion and prosperity in the region.
Of course, there's no end of potential pitfalls in such a course of action -- from China and Russia's reaction, to the damaging effect of the Bush presidency on the American military's might and reputation. But, eh, anybody have any easy answers?
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Love. Forgive. Trust. Be willing to be broken that you may be remade.
No, the reason why there are not enough supplies is because Israel has closed the border to the Gaza Strip for any humanitarian aid.
Why? Because terrorists use ANY method to get into Israel. They have even come in AMBULANCES!!!
So where do you think that money goes??? When Arafat was in power it went to his swiss bank account, who in turn funded terrorism. You think Hamas, who OPENLY call for Israel's destruction are any better? NO.
Speaking of poverty, does anyone ever think about the poverty in ISRAEL. Yes, a large percentage of Israel's population are living in poverty. There are also shortages of hospital supplies in Israel.
The crux of the problem lies in the fact that while Israel would be happy with peaceful coexistance, the Palestinian leaders want to wipe out every Israeli and "Push them into the sea." Israel has accepted almost every single agreement for the establishment of two separate states. All of these were rejected by Palestinian leaders.
Edit:
I really don't think any conventional kind of diplomatic remedy can possibly work here... at least nothing imposed from without. And unless Palestine can produce a person of a Nelson Mandela-like moral stature -- someone loved and trusted by the Palestinian people, with an authentic commitment to peace without vengeance -- I don't see an answer arising from within the crisis either.
The Palestinians have of course suffered the brunt of the casualties; but what's Hamas been doing this whole time (and before the current Israeli offensive began)? Firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel. That's no way to establish a moral high ground.
My proposal for peace (and this may sound insane, but that's par for the course in the Middle East): Israel returns all land it took during 1967's Six-Day War, puts an end to sanctions against the Palestinians and gives them their own autonomous state; and then we make Israel the fifty-first American state. Iran, Syria, etc. already claim that the U.S.A. + Israel is a double-headed Satan; so let's make it so in fact. Any attack on Israel is now an attack on America. Conversely, if the hostile Arab regimes can swallow their pride enough to finally accept Israel's existence (or at least to admit the futility of overt military action against the United States), there's the potential for a whole new level of economic expansion and prosperity in the region.
Of course, there's no end of potential pitfalls in such a course of action -- from China and Russia's reaction, to the damaging effect of the Bush presidency on the American military's might and reputation. But, eh, anybody have any easy answers?
I agree with your plan, it will make some sort of peace, but all you need is one idiot to start another world war. Not an amazing prospect. And then there is the opinion of the Israelis to consider, about whether or not they want to be Americans, and whether or not the palestinian leadership will agree with this plan, still not sure if they want their own state...
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Hamas's concrete agenda is the obliteration of Israel and murder of jews.
Was about to post that almost word-for-word.
NS, note the fate of the PLO after the charter was amended. It was abandoned by the Palestinians and they threw their support behind Hamas.
If Hamas engages in real peacemaking talks with Israel (not that I believe that would ever happen), the Palestinian people will abandon them and find another organization that hates Jews more.
I know it's a cynical position to take, but I believe that there has been too much strife between the two sides for any non-violent solution to exist any longer. I think that any peaceful resolution of the conflict is about 20 years too late, and that after all the talking and talking that has gone on, Israeli and Palestinian simply have nothing left to say to each other.
Except that Hamas has shown they will fire rockets no matter what Israel does. They even continued to fir rockets during the so called cease fire.
I agree with Pandas, of course I usually do, that it will take a leader of remarkable moral stature to rise among the Palestinians and lead with a notion of justice and peace for the good of all for anything positive to happen. I don't see it happening anytime soon. The vast majority of the Palestinians who are at all politically active seem to be myopically focused on the destruction of Israel even though it's clear that the goal is not realistic.
Independence of USA
Independence of Ireland
Independence of Isreal
USA was a colony fighting for independence. Ireland was a country trying to throw off foreign rule. Israel, or Palestine was British colony throwing of foreign rule. These are all a bad model for Hamas because the so called occupiers actually claim the land as their homeland as well.
The PLO also had a charter that didn't recognize the right for Isreal to exist. After (and only after) unconditional peace talks were started with Isreal (and incidentally after Shin Bet stopped trying to assassinate Arafat) such chart was amended. Problem is, although Hamas has already stated in the past that discussions with Isreal could be considered, Isreal always refused talking with them.
Isreal was in part founded using terrorism against the native Arab populations. You must have missed my previous post where I discussed the Irgun.
Point is, if you take the time to check some historical facts, people negotiate with terrorists all the time. Cases in point:
Independence of USA
Independence of Ireland
Independence of Isreal
Independence of Argelia and several ex-colonies
ETA in spain, IRA in Northern Ireland, Insurgents in Iraq which kicked out Al-Qaeda at the request of the US occupation troops, heck even NATO does some minor negotiations with Talibans...
I am not ignorant and am well aware of the actions of the Irgun, and I too would have condemned their attacks on civilians, as did most Israelis. I said in a post before that i did not agree with every Israeli action. I do have a firm belief in its right to defend itself from terror, just like any other democratic country. The Irgun were a comparatively small sect, their attacks do not even compare to the terror Israel has witnessed at the hands of the Palestinians. I understand that this in no way makes the actions of the Irgun 'right'. Their object was not the complete obliteration of the Palestinian people. None of the terrorist organisations you have listed have proposed genocide in their charters.
Yes, I'm well aware of the brilliant "If you're not with us, you're with the Terrorists" line of reasoning which too many people fancy. Thankfully such jibba-jabba is soon going to start being disposed in the trashcan of history, starting next 20 January.
"If you're not with us, you're with the Terrorists"???? What does this mean???? It means you are failing to prove me wrong, so you make something up. This is the definition commonly used for a terrorist. US law states:
The term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents.
The war won't be solved in a way that satisfies both sides. The only end will probably be the destruction of one side or the other, and hopefully it all goes that well. Hamas isn't willing to listen to the Israelis, and Israel won't listen to Hamas. Leave any 3rd party action out of it, let one kill the other. Sure, one of them may be annihilated, but allowing them to fight one another for years upon years leads to more unnecessary suffering.
What about the independence of India? It would appear that it would hold a lot of lessons for the Palestinians.
I don't think that a democratic nation could long resist a systematic, non-violent protest by the Palestinian people. It would recapture the moral high ground and lead to real change.
Too much blood spilt, perhaps?
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We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
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Off course, they have, in general, a better quality of life than the arabs in the West Bank and Gaza, to not mention other countries. But this "Arab Isrealis" also suffer discrimination when looking for jobs and other activities in the common life, and arent totally equall to the law in the coutnry. Its hard to be muslim or Arab in a country that mention that is a democracy, but give priviledges and bonifications to people of ONE religion in special.
Ex: I am an atheist. I want to ask the Israeli citizenship. The process will be long, hard, and i will be on my own. But, if i mention that i am of jewish religion, or a descendant of jewish people, doors open everywhere for me.
I would not want to live in a country where there are first and second class citizens.
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@ (N_S): fair enough. I would point out though that Israel has one of the best intelligence agencies in the world. If they think there are weapons there then there are probably weapons there.
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Thing, i think, its the main problem, the root of the problem. I think, that in the 48, instead of two states, the most logical option was to create a single and democratic country, not chartered to be a jew or muslim state, but a new country. I still think is the best choice.Make a new country with the palestinian and the israeli. You say it, arabs, be christian or muslim can live (and lived for many years) with jews. The problem begins when one of the religions wants to be the boss.
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I know I am kind of putting my two sense in the middle of a conversation that goes back farther than I have the patience to read, but here is what I know.
I know that I came to Israel to advance my religious studies.
I know that I have been to Sderot to help run a carnival for children who are the victims of terror attacks- attacks that left them without a parent or two.
I know that I have friends closer to the epicenter of the war who are studying inside while ROCKET ALARMS sound all around them.
I know that I have friends in the Israeli Army.
I know that a good 40% of the school that I am studying in right now where just called in for Army Service. That means that the kid (and I stress kid, cuz' I'm talking about a 20 yer old) who sat next to me in class, who told jokes to me, whent out to lunch with me, dormed with me, is going off in the very same "special forces" you where talking about.
Anyone who thinks that a country should send it's 20 year olds into Gaza, one of the most densely populated places on earth, before clearing some sort of path is seriously disturbed.
Now the bed next to mine in my dorm room is empty, and what do I do?
I have to call up my friend learning in Kerem B'Yavneh, a school just out of range of the rockets that are being fired into Israel, and tell him that if he is scared he can stay in Jerusalem with me, where the danger is only in Riots, not rockets.
Anyone who thinks that my friends in the Israeli Army are cruel, or terrorists should get their heads checked.
I severely regret the loss of life in Gaza, Palestenian or otherwise. No family should ever have to go on without a father. No family should ever have to take cover in a bomb shelter.
No 20 year old kid should ever have to walk into a territory that he may not come out of.
And I myself should not have to voulenteer my time to help a 7 year old celebrate a holiday without his father, in sight of his destroyed house.
I take offense to one who would have "special forces" just waltz into a war zone. Are there not enough weeping children that we must add weeping mothers?
The blame for that again falls squarely on Hamas. If they didn't use civilians as human shields for their troops and weapons, how many fewer casualties would there be?
Its realy not a contest of who has the bigger sob story. I was just telling mine.
I am sorry for all the children and adults who have died. I would never say that a less violent path would be worse. I compleatly agree that bloodshed is terrible, no matter whose blood is shed.
I just thought it was innapropriate for someone on a M:TG forum to be directing military operations in the Middle East. I gave a personal account to underline the complexity of the situiation. Remind people that footsoldiers are people too. They should not be thought of as "Tanks and Guns" that are just killing people arbitrarily.
It's quite puzzling to me that people still say that Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians or carpet bombing or whatever. Given the might of the Israeli airforce if they were really bombing indiscriminately then Palestinians would be counting their casualties in thousands, not hundreds and the overwhelming majority of the dead would be civilians, not militants.
I'm Jewish. You're preaching to the choir here. There are many reasons why I believe America is a better country than Israel, and this is one of them. Looking at the situation realistically though, Israel is a Jewish state and that's not likely to change. Any solution should keep that firmly in mind.
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Bloodlessly has to include Israeli blood, too. For some reason everyone seems to overlook that.
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The Israeli didn't get that land in a way that could be labelled as justified. The land was taken from the Palestinian by someone who was in no position to do so.
Any solution should keep in mind that all people, no matter their believes, ideologies, race or gender, are equal and should be treated as such. No person has more right to live in a certain place than another person. This should be the centre of future treaties.
The Hamas would have no reason to keep firing rockets if those things were done. If they did though, I think they'd quickly lose all support they have.
Article 13, Hamas Charter:
There can be no peaceful reconciliation with Hamas. Only such warfare as Israel is now waging can bring about peace, albeit a Tacitean one.
Maybe not with the hamas, but what about the rest of the Palestinians?
You dont think that negotiation has been tried? You know why it doesn't work? You cannot negotiate with terrorists! Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Israel has every right to defend itself. Why is Israel not a terrorist state? It does not TARGET civilians. Hamas TARGETS civilians, and hides behind them. The objective of Hamas in hiding behind civilians is to create this kind of publicity, to force Israels hand, so that if Israel wants to protect its own, it must go through these civilians, i.e. Hamas is using these civilians as human sacrifices!!! When will Hamas be accountable for this?
I really think that Hamas should be giving the Palestinians their elementary dignity back, rather than using them as human shields. And the reason why there are not enough supplies in hospitals, and the reason why there is terrible infrastructure in Gaza is due to the millions of dollars that ISRAEL, and the entire world gives to Hamas for aid is squandered in TERRORIST activities.
I do not agree with every action Israel takes, but i do strongly believe it has the right to defend itself.
Thanks to the guys at Highlight Studios for the great banner and avatar.
Trade with me http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=101483&highlight=" rel="nofollow"here.
Because they addressed the problem at hand, the way they are treated by the Israeli and a large part of the western community. They would have no reason to re-elect or even consider them as their leaders if an acceptable treaty was made.
The Palestinians have of course suffered the brunt of the casualties; but what's Hamas been doing this whole time (and before the current Israeli offensive began)? Firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel. That's no way to establish a moral high ground.
My proposal for peace (and this may sound insane, but that's par for the course in the Middle East): Israel returns all land it took during 1967's Six-Day War, puts an end to sanctions against the Palestinians and gives them their own autonomous state; and then we make Israel the fifty-first American state. Iran, Syria, etc. already claim that the U.S.A. + Israel is a double-headed Satan; so let's make it so in fact. Any attack on Israel is now an attack on America. Conversely, if the hostile Arab regimes can swallow their pride enough to finally accept Israel's existence (or at least to admit the futility of overt military action against the United States), there's the potential for a whole new level of economic expansion and prosperity in the region.
Of course, there's no end of potential pitfalls in such a course of action -- from China and Russia's reaction, to the damaging effect of the Bush presidency on the American military's might and reputation. But, eh, anybody have any easy answers?
Why? Because terrorists use ANY method to get into Israel. They have even come in AMBULANCES!!!
So where do you think that money goes??? When Arafat was in power it went to his swiss bank account, who in turn funded terrorism. You think Hamas, who OPENLY call for Israel's destruction are any better? NO.
Speaking of poverty, does anyone ever think about the poverty in ISRAEL. Yes, a large percentage of Israel's population are living in poverty. There are also shortages of hospital supplies in Israel.
The crux of the problem lies in the fact that while Israel would be happy with peaceful coexistance, the Palestinian leaders want to wipe out every Israeli and "Push them into the sea." Israel has accepted almost every single agreement for the establishment of two separate states. All of these were rejected by Palestinian leaders.
Edit: I agree with your plan, it will make some sort of peace, but all you need is one idiot to start another world war. Not an amazing prospect. And then there is the opinion of the Israelis to consider, about whether or not they want to be Americans, and whether or not the palestinian leadership will agree with this plan, still not sure if they want their own state...
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Methinks theres wayyyy too much hate on both sides for it to ever be that simple.
Was about to post that almost word-for-word.
NS, note the fate of the PLO after the charter was amended. It was abandoned by the Palestinians and they threw their support behind Hamas.
If Hamas engages in real peacemaking talks with Israel (not that I believe that would ever happen), the Palestinian people will abandon them and find another organization that hates Jews more.
I know it's a cynical position to take, but I believe that there has been too much strife between the two sides for any non-violent solution to exist any longer. I think that any peaceful resolution of the conflict is about 20 years too late, and that after all the talking and talking that has gone on, Israeli and Palestinian simply have nothing left to say to each other.
I agree with Pandas, of course I usually do, that it will take a leader of remarkable moral stature to rise among the Palestinians and lead with a notion of justice and peace for the good of all for anything positive to happen. I don't see it happening anytime soon. The vast majority of the Palestinians who are at all politically active seem to be myopically focused on the destruction of Israel even though it's clear that the goal is not realistic.
USA was a colony fighting for independence. Ireland was a country trying to throw off foreign rule. Israel, or Palestine was British colony throwing of foreign rule. These are all a bad model for Hamas because the so called occupiers actually claim the land as their homeland as well.
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No. A+B+C=/=D
Hamas's charter not only does not recongise Israel, but calls for its complete obliteration. That is a totally irrational concrete way of thinking.
Source?
I am not ignorant and am well aware of the actions of the Irgun, and I too would have condemned their attacks on civilians, as did most Israelis. I said in a post before that i did not agree with every Israeli action. I do have a firm belief in its right to defend itself from terror, just like any other democratic country. The Irgun were a comparatively small sect, their attacks do not even compare to the terror Israel has witnessed at the hands of the Palestinians. I understand that this in no way makes the actions of the Irgun 'right'. Their object was not the complete obliteration of the Palestinian people. None of the terrorist organisations you have listed have proposed genocide in their charters.
"If you're not with us, you're with the Terrorists"???? What does this mean???? It means you are failing to prove me wrong, so you make something up. This is the definition commonly used for a terrorist. US law states:
The war won't be solved in a way that satisfies both sides. The only end will probably be the destruction of one side or the other, and hopefully it all goes that well. Hamas isn't willing to listen to the Israelis, and Israel won't listen to Hamas. Leave any 3rd party action out of it, let one kill the other. Sure, one of them may be annihilated, but allowing them to fight one another for years upon years leads to more unnecessary suffering.
But that's assuming 3rd parties don't join.
I don't think that a democratic nation could long resist a systematic, non-violent protest by the Palestinian people. It would recapture the moral high ground and lead to real change.
Too much blood spilt, perhaps?
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