I think the Palestinians need to demilitarize their opposition to Israel. I'm not talking about surrendering or destroying their weapons or anything like that. I just think that they should use nonviolent protest as a way to express their grievances. I know a lot of people think that Israel uses negligible threats from the Palestinians as an excuse for excessive force, that's it own debate, but if the Palestinian protest was nonviolent then Israel would have no reason/excuse to use force and it would be a lot more likely to create a productive dialogue.
Given that the Israeli independence was achieved through violence and partly terrorism, I am not really seeing the incentive for Palestinians to lay down their weapons. Also given that Isreal has never honored their part of all the international agreements signed after several cease-fires (their part being stopping the installation of new settlements and removing their de-facto apartheid laws). All the Intifadas started after provocations from Isreally officials, the latest one being The Ariel Sharon walk in the Mesquites esplanade.
So I'm totally missing your point here. Perhaps they should simply give up and enter some buses freighted by the Isreal government and be deported to the border countries?
Well, American independence came through violence, but that did not stop a peaceful civil rights movement from winning rights for African Americans and other minorities.
As far as Israel not honoring its promises, neither said has and both sides can claim justification for that. But if the Palestinians use peaceful methods then they will gain a moral high ground that neither side has at this point and that put them and the rest of the world in a better position to push Israel toward some kind of lasting resolution. You have to remember that the reasoning given by the Israelis, whether you believe them or not, for the fences and heavy handed tactics is the continuing threat of violence from Palestinian terrorists.
I actually do have some sympathy for the Palestinian cause, but the way they are going about it has basically gotten them nowhere for the last sixty years and could easily get them nowhere for another sixty. I'd like to see this situation resolved, but that's not going to happen while the Israelis are worrying about where the next rocket will land or the next suicide bomber strike.
Look at your numbers again. 4 dead Israelis. 400 dead Palestinians (with more on the way due to continued bombing and near total lack of medical care). How is that at all justifiable? Especially when Israel considers anything remotely associated to Hamas (the supposed government of Gaza) to be a legitimate target. They've bombed police stations and universities!
Hamas kept poking the dragon. It shouldn't be surprised when the fire burns the whole village.
You do realise that the same thing could be said about Palestinian attacks against Israel, and with far greater justification? I mean, rocket attacks from Hamas have killed maybe twenty people in the past seven years and wounded probably less than one hundred (and that's a generous number). Meanwhile, in the past few days there has been, what, two and a half thousand dead and wounded from the Israeli bombings?
Hamas isn't stupid. They know that Israel will respond. They chose to put palestinians in danger with their actions. It's like poking a dragon and crying when it kills your friends.
The misery that Palestinians live under categorically is not self-imposed. You might as well claim that it was actually black people's fault that they were enslaved, that the Native Americans were to blame for the Trail of Tears or that maybe the Third Reich had a real reason to put the Jews in ghettos. To look at the situation and side, not with the people who suffer in ways that you cannot even imagine, but with the oppressors is absolutely monstrous.
Weren't all the palestinians offered Egyptian/Jordanian citizenship way back after one of the wars? I believe so, so yes, it is the palestinians fault that they remained in Israel.
Also, the palestinian terrorists can also be considered oppressors, as they force the Israeli citizens to live in constant fear of their bus being bombed, or some crazy killing them in a cafe or club.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Nor while the Palestinian people is denied the most elementary dignity. Hence my argument that both sides of the conflict share the same amount of guilt for the present situation.
Guilt is completely irrelevant at this point in the conflict. If you wanted to asses guilt and exact punishment for past wrongdoing you would have to pretty much nuke the entire region.
Your reference to 'elementary dignity' is also irrelevant. If someone is coming to kill me and my family I am not gonna afford them any dignity. This is a slow war of annihilation and concepts like 'dignity', 'civilian' or 'innocent' have no meaning in this context. It's a purely binary affair in which your are either on my side or are trying to kill me.
For this conflict to stop both sides have to cease any hostilities AND clamp down on any elements in their own population that want to continue fighting. That means that the Palestines disarm and suppress Hamas and the Isrealis stop their settlers and religious zealots.
Contrary to popular belief and apparently their best efforts, Israel is not a fairytale beast commonly used as a symbol of absolute evil.
Hamas seems to see it that way, though. They refuse to even admit that Israel has a right to exist, let alone a right to not have rockets fired into their territory. If Hamas would deal with Israel for what it is, a sovereign nation with the military power to annihilate Gaza and all who live there at will, then they might actually get somewhere. As it is they refuse to even stop the rocket attacks knowing that the Israeli offensive will nto stop until the rockets do, knowing that the Israelis can and will escalate the conflict if they feel they need to. Hate Israel all you want, but view the situation with some attention to reality and not this naive fanaticism.
US independence:1776. Civil Rights for the Afro-American minorities: 1950-1960. I'd rather not wait until 2112-2122 before I see the issues of the Palestinians solved.
A path to peace that takes 113 years is probably a faster one that we've got now. One that involves nonviolent tactics might possibly result in less bloodshed.
What does this even mean? That they should bow down and agree that Israel may do as it pleases with them? That they should attempt diplomacy? Certainly, that would be a good idea, if Israel would at all accept terms of peace that did not require Palestinians to remain second-class citizens.
It means that you don't tilt against windmills when it will get your people killed. It means that you look at the world realistically and if something isn't working (60 years of unsuccessfully trying to win by force) you maybe try something different.
Remember that there was once the secular and increasingly moderate PLO (who in the end were perfectly happy with a two-state solution, which could even be exploited by Israel although not to the degree that is currently going on) but Israel wouldn't have any of that so they funded Hamas as a religious and extremist alternative in order to weaken the PLO. Then Hamas got really popular in no small part due to that they spend the vast majority of their budget on much needed social programs, which got them elected in Gaza. Whoops! Apparently supporting religious radicals in an attempt to divide and conquer can turn around and bite you in the ass.
You need some kind of references for this. All that aside, even if all you claim is true, then that doesn't make Hamas any less a bunch of D-bags or the people who follow and vote for them any less a bunch of D-bags. It just also makes them tools.
Fatah was moving toward a two state solution with Israel before Hamas took power in Gaza, but whoops the Gazans democratically elected the extremists.
Really, regardless of what Hamas does or does not do, Israel will continue the oppression. That's why the attacks happen in the first place. If diplomacy worked, which it doesn't because they have nothing other than the cessation of attacks to offer and because Israel is not interested in remotely fair terms, then that is what the various Palestinian organisations would have done long ago.
The West Bank is controlled by the much more moderate Fatah movement. There are no bombs landing there. Problems yes, but the difference between the current state of Gaza and the current state of the West Bank says a lot about what works in this situation. As for the Palestinians living in squalor or misery, if their leaders want to buy rockets instead of janitorial supplies, that's really not Israel's fault.
Has there been any word on any kind of peace process. The last I'd read it basically amounted to both sides demanding that the other stop shooting first, which was working out about like you would expect. I know Israel has been drawing up reserves for a possible ground assault. I hope it doesn't come to that. A ground assault would effectively mean the reoccupation of Gaza, which seems like a rather large step backward.
Hamas seems to see it that way, though. They refuse to even admit that Israel has a right to exist, let alone a right to not have rockets fired into their territory. If Hamas would deal with Israel for what it is, a sovereign nation with the military power to annihilate Gaza and all who live there at will, then they might actually get somewhere. As it is they refuse to even stop the rocket attacks knowing that the Israeli offensive will nto stop until the rockets do, knowing that the Israelis can and will escalate the conflict if they feel they need to. Hate Israel all you want, but view the situation with some attention to reality and not this naive fanaticism.
The reality is that Israel and its pal George Bush haven't been any more interested in pursuing a path to peace than Hamas either since the beginning of the decade. May I refer you to the short-lived cease-fire of 2003, during which Israel displayed its "willingness to achieve peace" by target-killing Palestinians.
When Fatah attempted to renegotiate a cease-fire, Israel answered that they wouldn't abide to any stop of hostilities unless Hamas and Islamic Jihad were completely dismantled. Right, since Fatah has the ability to do that...
You need some kind of references for this. All that aside, even if all you claim is true, then that doesn't make Hamas any less a bunch of D-bags or the people who follow and vote for them any less a bunch of D-bags. It just also makes them tools.
Right, should I assume you are a D-bag (and a tool) because the man currently running your country is one? Do you believe the americans who died in 9/11 deserved to be killed because after all, they voted for and followed an administration who was shortsighted enough to let it happen? No. Your argument is one huge strawman, and your defense of avoidable civilian casualties is frankly disgusting. Hamas deserves to rot in hell (and honestly many Israelites do as well), but those civilian victims in Gaza are simply in no way justified.
Contrary to popular belief and apparently their best efforts, Israel is not a fairytale beast commonly used as a symbol of absolute evil. It's the most powerful country in the region and should act as befits what tries to play itself off as a first-world democracy. Instead of, you know, dropping bombs on civilians because there's an election coming and the politicians in charge want to earn war points. That is a very stupid way of opposing guerillas and making people hate you less!
Continuing with the silly little metaphor, you should recall that most stories involving a dragon and a village has the dragon oppressing the village and killing its inhabitants however it sees fit, sometimes for food and sometimes for sport, up until someone comes along and slays the creature. So, er, you depicting Israel as a monster does not work out well for your argument.
Quote from Associated Press »
Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons. -- Associated Press, Dec. 27
Clearly, Israel is going out of their way to oppress the Palestinians. What tyrants they are.
Clearly, Israel is going out of their way to oppress the Palestinians. What tyrants they are.
Using the AP as a source to defend your position?
Published on Saturday, July 22, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
News Bias in the Associated Press
by Peter Phillips
A new study conducted at Sonoma State University shows widespread bias in Associate Press (AP) news reports favoring US government positions. On October 25, 2005 the American Civil Liberties (ACLU) posted to their website 44 autopsy reports, acquired from American military sources, covering the deaths of civilians who died while in US military prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan in 2002-2004. The autopsy reports provided proof of widespread torture by US forces. A press release by ACLU announcing the deaths was immediately picked up by AP wire service making the story available to US corporate media nationwide. A thorough check of Nexus-Lexus and Proquest library data bases showed that at least 98 percent of the daily papers in the US did not to pick up the story, nor did AP ever conduct follow up coverage on the issue. The Associated Press is a non-profit cooperative news wire service. The AP with 3,700 employees has 242 bureaus worldwide that deliver news reports 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to 121 countries in 5 languages including English, German, Dutch, French, and Spanish. In the US alone, AP reaches 1,700 daily, weekly, non-English, college newspapers, and 5,000 radio and television stations. AP reaches over a billion people every day via print, radio, or television. Alison Weir, Joy Ellison, and Peter Weir of the organization If Americans Knew recently conducted research on the AP's reporting of the Israel-Palestine conflict. The study was a statistical analysis of the AP newswire in the year 2004, looking comparatively at the numbers of Israeli and Palestinian deaths reported. In 2004 there were 141 reports of Israeli deaths in AP headlines and lead paragraphs, while in reality there were only 108 Israeli deaths. During this same period, 543 Palestinian deaths were reported by AP, while 821 Palestinians had actually been killed. The ratio of actual number of Israeli conflict deaths to Palestinian deaths in 2004 was 1:7, yet AP reported deaths of Israelis to Palestinians at a 2:1 ratio. The same could be said of AP's reporting of children's deaths. Nine reports of Israeli children's deaths were reported by the AP in headlines and leading paragraphs in 2004, while eight actually occurred. Only 27 Palestinian children deaths were reported by AP when actually 179 children died. While there were 22 times more Palestinian children's deaths than Israeli children's deaths, the AP reported 113 percent of Israeli children's deaths and 15 percent of Palestinian children's deaths. On February 29, 2004 AP widely reported that President Aristide was ousted by Haitian rebels and that the United States provided an escort to take him out of the country to a safe asylum. Within 24 hours an entirely different story emerged through independent radio. Instead of the US being the supportive facilitator of Aristide's safety, Pacifica Radio News reported that Aristide was actually kidnapped by US forces. AP quickly changed their story. On March 1, 2004 an AP report by Deb Riechman said, "White House officials said Aristide left willingly and that the United States aided his safe departure. But in a telephone interview with the Associated Press, Aristide said: "No. I was forced to leave." The last AP report of Aristide's claiming that he had been kidnapped by the US in a State Department coup was on June 27, 2004. Since then there have been 60 news articles by AP including Aristide's name. Of these stories none mentioned Aristide's claim that he was kidnapped by the United States military. None mention the US backing of the coup. AP's bias in favor of the State Department's version of the Aristide's removal seems to be a deliberate case of AP-sanctioned forgetting. AP is a massive institutionalized bureaucracy that feeds news stories to nearly every newspaper and radio/TV station in the United States. They are so large that top-down control of single news stories is practically impossible. However, research clearly indicates a built-in bias favoring official US government positions. The American people absorb these biases and make political decisions on skewed understandings. Without media systems that provide fair, critical and accurate reporting, democracy faces a dismal future. Peter Phillips is a professor of sociology at Sonoma State University and Director of Project Censored. University research interns Sarah Randle, Brian Fuchs, Zoe Huffman, and Fabrice Romero assisted with this report. The full AP bias study is available on-line at http://www.projectcensored.org/newsflash/ap_bias.html
Time to ponder for solution, since all previous attempts by the international community have clearly indicated as failures.
One world government. Seriously. Think how the U.S. system is set up. There is a governing body. Then each state under the governing body can make it's own laws so long as it doesn't violate the next level up. Then each district, then each town, etc. (I know this is a vast over simplification and probably isn't even correct, but you get the idea). If there was common ground between every country, laws and freedoms that every country must follow, I think there would be less fighting. And please dont call me the anti-christ. I really only know of this proposition from Sam Harris's book. It seems like it would be an alright idea but I don't see how the people of the Middle East could be convinced to partake in it. Just an idea.
Well, you don't need to look at the bias of the international media. All you have to do is think of the embargo and blockade that Israel imposed on the Gaza Strip and West Bank. These methods have been ineffective in catalyzing regime change in the past. Why would it be any different for those people? Then you can look at how normal Palestinians are not allowed to go into Israel to work. Denying a people the chance at proper lives due to second class treatment in addition to imposing embargoes because they elected the "wrong" candidates seems pretty oppressive to me, no matter how you slice it. It's also hypocritical because of Israel's position as the only democracy in the Middle East. "Shining beacon", indeed.
By the way, Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a radical, extremist Jew. How does that fit into your argument? I don't see the connection.
Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated how many years ago now?
And I'm pretty sure the embargo was put in place not to force regime change, but to try and limit the number of weapons being shipped into Gaza. Given the continual rocket attacks, I'm not so sure that's a viable strategy either, but something had to be done.
If Hamas had any sense they would be trying to negotiate for a two-state compromise. Instead, they're shooting rockets at Israel. Did they not expect the Israelis to fight back?
In my opinion, the easiest way for Israel to win this war would be to just apologize for whatever wrongs they may have done to the Palestinian people, even if said acts were justified. This should be followed up with giving the Palestinians the same rights that Israelis enjoy. Doing this would severely dampen the amount of grassroot support which Hamas and other similar groups have, in addition to giving Israel a very appreciable advantage when it comes to bargaining. Unfortunately, I don't believe the far-right Israelis would like it (nor would the far-right Palestinians), but no amount of goodwill or reason would've worked on them anyhow. For everyone else, it would be a welcome change from the constant conflict in the region.
THere is a substantial group of people know as "Arab-Israelis" who enjoy every right that other Israelis enjoy except for the right to serve in the military. They have representation in the Knesset and everything. The group has existed since Israel became a country. I don't know exactly what's required to gain the staus of Arab-Israeli, though.
Apparently Hamas has stepped up its rocket attacks. I have no idea what they're trying to achieve at this point. They're not affecting Israel's military capability at all and the continued attacks are likely to provoke more action from the Israeli military.
THere is a substantial group of people know as "Arab-Israelis" who enjoy every right that other Israelis enjoy except for the right to serve in the military. They have representation in the Knesset and everything. The group has existed since Israel became a country. I don't know exactly what's required to gain the staus of Arab-Israeli, though.
Apparently Hamas has stepped up its rocket attacks. I have no idea what they're trying to achieve at this point. They're not affecting Israel's military capability at all and the continued attacks are likely to provoke more action from the Israeli military.
Why do we have stereotypical elderly folks that shake their fist angrily at "meddling kids" to stay off their lawn futilely? It's an emotional responce to feel that they can "do something."
If anything, Hamas has the ability to make some major power plays if they played their cards right in finalizing a Palestinian agreement then securing basic trade and normalized relations with other countries. All the while still maintaining their hegemony.
They really should look to Saladin for inspiration or one of the better Arab leaders in the past, rather than ignorant fools that invented radical Islam.
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http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/03/israel.gaza/index.html
Here's alink to the most recent article on CNN. Apparently I was wrong, the Hamas attacks have slackened off. Whether this means that the offensive is limiting their ability to do so or if Hamas is backing off I couldn't say.
Isn't a lot of things like access to universal medical care decided by whether you've served or not? Banning an ethnic group from serving in the military, something that is otherwise mandatory, doesn't strike me as very justifiable anyway.
I don't know about the rights and riveleges of veterans in Israel, so I really couldn't say. I do know that Orthodox Jewish women don't serve and I assume they have full rights of citizenship. The nonservice clause in their citizenship was agreed upon between the government and Arab-Israeli representatives when the country was founded.
Edit: Oh bugger http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090103/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians
Isn't a lot of things like access to universal medical care decided by whether you've served or not? Banning an ethnic group from serving in the military, something that is otherwise mandatory, doesn't strike me as very justifiable anyway.
Like so many other things you've said, I'm positive that this is untrue. Ultra-Orthodox Jews are also exempted from military service due to their religious beliefs, do you think that they are prevented from receiving medical care?
Remember that there was once the secular and increasingly moderate PLO (who in the end were perfectly happy with a two-state solution, which could even be exploited by Israel although not to the degree that is currently going on) but Israel wouldn't have any of that so they funded Hamas as a religious and extremist alternative in order to weaken the PLO. Then Hamas got really popular in no small part due to that they spend the vast majority of their budget on much needed social programs, which got them elected in Gaza. Whoops! Apparently supporting religious radicals in an attempt to divide and conquer can turn around and bite you in the ass.
Tuss, I'm beginning to think that you're nothing more than a gullible anti-Semitic European who will swallow anything spat out by anyone that puts Israel in a bad light. This claim is absolutely ridiculous for a variety of reasons.
1. Israel has never funded Hamas, and I defy you to provide a source that shows otherwise.
2. Hamas's "social programs" that you speak of are fronts for terrorist activity. These "schools" that you speak about are places where they indoctrinate young Palestinians into anti-Semitism. They are not centers of education, they're breeding pools for young suicide bombers. The "humanitarian aid" that Hamas provides is blood money paid to the families of the suicide bombers. The soccer teams and sporting clubs sponsored by Hamas are also recruiting agencies for suicide bombers.
3. Hamas did not win the 2007 elections based on these social programs, they won because a sizable majority of Palestinians AGREE with Hamas's stated goal of removing Israel from the planet.
edit: Oh bugger.
edit 2:
Quote from CNN »
Leaflets signed by the commander of the Israeli military were dropped over northern Gaza on Saturday morning, warning residents to "leave the area immediately" to ensure their safety.
"We are trying to be as humane as possible," Leibovich said. "... The civilians are not our target. We are looking only at militants, Hamas militants."
When was the last time you saw Hamas care about civilian lives, on either side? Dead Israeli civilians are Hamas's goal. Dead Palestinian civilians are Hamas's propaganda weapons.
It is nice to hear that you are beginning to think (an admirable quality for sure) but the effort is in vain as you are quite wrong. My objection to Israel's actions has nothing to do with them being Jews. They could belong to any other people or religion/ideology and I would still strongly condemn their treatment of the Palestinians.
While the links are interesting, they leave a bit to be desired. The first one doesn't really have anything by way of citations which makes the statements impossible to verify.
The second one has a FAQ that answers the question "Is Hamas a terrorist group?" with a no. A few lines down is the question about how Hamas recruits suicide bombers. If you recruit suicide bombers, you are at least partially a terrorist group. That's not to say that the site doesn't provide some interesting insights and info, it's just clearly very biased.
It is nice to hear that you are beginning to think (an admirable quality for sure) but the effort is in vain as you are quite wrong. My objection to Israel's actions has nothing to do with them being Jews. They could belong to any other people or religion/ideology and I would still strongly condemn their treatment of the Palestinians.
I concede the point. I had not heard of this before. However, the article you cited appears to contradict you:
In the end, as Hamas set up a very comprehensive counterintelligence system, many collaborators with Israel were weeded out and shot. Violent acts of terrorism became the central tenet, and Hamas, unlike the PLO, was unwilling to compromise in any way with Israel, refusing to acquiesce in its very existence.
Since this article was written 6 years ago, and the Israeli backing of Hamas had already ended at the time of its writing, I doubt very much that this had anything to do with Hamas's 2007 electoral victories.
They're basically the only ones in Gaza to provide anything in the way of schools and such.
The "schools" are indoctrination sites for young terrorists. They preach anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial. Parents of attending students are required to sign oaths of allegiance to Hamas. Hamas also hides weapons caches under these buildings and then accuses Israel of targeting civilians when they try to destroy them.
Yes, such a wonderful humanitarian organization they are.
edit: And you still have yet to address the fact that the Israelis go out of their way to avoid civilian casualties, whereas Hamas revels in them.
No, Israel does not go out of their way to avoid civilian casualties. If they did then they would not even have considered using air strikes to target the leaders, factories and training grounds of Hamas. They would then instead have sent in special forces. When you drop bombs on buildings where you know that there will most likely be civilians (like in a dense population centre) you deliberately target civilians even if they are not the stated target.
Your usage of the word "target" is unusual.
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No, Israel does not go out of their way to avoid civilian casualties. If they did then they would not even have considered using air strikes to target the leaders, factories and training grounds of Hamas. They would then instead have sent in special forces. When you drop bombs on buildings where you know that there will most likely be civilians (like in a dense population centre) you deliberately target civilians even if they are not the stated target.
The point he was trying to make is that while Israel aims for military targets and makes at least a token effort to avoid civilian casualties. Hamas actively targets civilians.
The "schools" are indoctrination sites for young terrorists. They preach anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial. Parents of attending students are required to sign oaths of allegiance to Hamas. Hamas also hides weapons caches under these buildings and then accuses Israel of targeting civilians when they try to destroy them.
Yes, such a wonderful humanitarian organization they are.
No one is claiming Hamas is anything other than a terrorist organization; Tuss has merely explained how it presents a facade to the palestinian population of humanitarian helpers. Hitler did the same thing to gain power in Germany. In fact exploiting such populist tactics in a time of crisis it was almost impossible to prevent Hamas from rising to power. The average Palestinian who voted for them can't be held accountable and definitely doesn't deserve to be killed in a warzone for what Hamas does.
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As far as Israel not honoring its promises, neither said has and both sides can claim justification for that. But if the Palestinians use peaceful methods then they will gain a moral high ground that neither side has at this point and that put them and the rest of the world in a better position to push Israel toward some kind of lasting resolution. You have to remember that the reasoning given by the Israelis, whether you believe them or not, for the fences and heavy handed tactics is the continuing threat of violence from Palestinian terrorists.
I actually do have some sympathy for the Palestinian cause, but the way they are going about it has basically gotten them nowhere for the last sixty years and could easily get them nowhere for another sixty. I'd like to see this situation resolved, but that's not going to happen while the Israelis are worrying about where the next rocket will land or the next suicide bomber strike.
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Hamas kept poking the dragon. It shouldn't be surprised when the fire burns the whole village.
Hamas isn't stupid. They know that Israel will respond. They chose to put palestinians in danger with their actions. It's like poking a dragon and crying when it kills your friends.
Weren't all the palestinians offered Egyptian/Jordanian citizenship way back after one of the wars? I believe so, so yes, it is the palestinians fault that they remained in Israel.
Also, the palestinian terrorists can also be considered oppressors, as they force the Israeli citizens to live in constant fear of their bus being bombed, or some crazy killing them in a cafe or club.
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Guilt is completely irrelevant at this point in the conflict. If you wanted to asses guilt and exact punishment for past wrongdoing you would have to pretty much nuke the entire region.
Your reference to 'elementary dignity' is also irrelevant. If someone is coming to kill me and my family I am not gonna afford them any dignity. This is a slow war of annihilation and concepts like 'dignity', 'civilian' or 'innocent' have no meaning in this context. It's a purely binary affair in which your are either on my side or are trying to kill me.
For this conflict to stop both sides have to cease any hostilities AND clamp down on any elements in their own population that want to continue fighting. That means that the Palestines disarm and suppress Hamas and the Isrealis stop their settlers and religious zealots.
A path to peace that takes 113 years is probably a faster one that we've got now. One that involves nonviolent tactics might possibly result in less bloodshed.
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You need some kind of references for this. All that aside, even if all you claim is true, then that doesn't make Hamas any less a bunch of D-bags or the people who follow and vote for them any less a bunch of D-bags. It just also makes them tools.
Fatah was moving toward a two state solution with Israel before Hamas took power in Gaza, but whoops the Gazans democratically elected the extremists.
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The reality is that Israel and its pal George Bush haven't been any more interested in pursuing a path to peace than Hamas either since the beginning of the decade. May I refer you to the short-lived cease-fire of 2003, during which Israel displayed its "willingness to achieve peace" by target-killing Palestinians.
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/21/mideast/index.html
When Fatah attempted to renegotiate a cease-fire, Israel answered that they wouldn't abide to any stop of hostilities unless Hamas and Islamic Jihad were completely dismantled. Right, since Fatah has the ability to do that...
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2003-10/a-2003-10-08-16-Israel.cfm
Right, should I assume you are a D-bag (and a tool) because the man currently running your country is one? Do you believe the americans who died in 9/11 deserved to be killed because after all, they voted for and followed an administration who was shortsighted enough to let it happen? No. Your argument is one huge strawman, and your defense of avoidable civilian casualties is frankly disgusting. Hamas deserves to rot in hell (and honestly many Israelites do as well), but those civilian victims in Gaza are simply in no way justified.
Clearly, Israel is going out of their way to oppress the Palestinians. What tyrants they are.
Using the AP as a source to defend your position?
One world government. Seriously. Think how the U.S. system is set up. There is a governing body. Then each state under the governing body can make it's own laws so long as it doesn't violate the next level up. Then each district, then each town, etc. (I know this is a vast over simplification and probably isn't even correct, but you get the idea). If there was common ground between every country, laws and freedoms that every country must follow, I think there would be less fighting. And please dont call me the anti-christ. I really only know of this proposition from Sam Harris's book. It seems like it would be an alright idea but I don't see how the people of the Middle East could be convinced to partake in it. Just an idea.
Would you prefer I use Fox?
And do you have any evidence to the contrary?
Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated how many years ago now?
And I'm pretty sure the embargo was put in place not to force regime change, but to try and limit the number of weapons being shipped into Gaza. Given the continual rocket attacks, I'm not so sure that's a viable strategy either, but something had to be done.
Apparently Hamas has stepped up its rocket attacks. I have no idea what they're trying to achieve at this point. They're not affecting Israel's military capability at all and the continued attacks are likely to provoke more action from the Israeli military.
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Why do we have stereotypical elderly folks that shake their fist angrily at "meddling kids" to stay off their lawn futilely? It's an emotional responce to feel that they can "do something."
If anything, Hamas has the ability to make some major power plays if they played their cards right in finalizing a Palestinian agreement then securing basic trade and normalized relations with other countries. All the while still maintaining their hegemony.
They really should look to Saladin for inspiration or one of the better Arab leaders in the past, rather than ignorant fools that invented radical Islam.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Here's alink to the most recent article on CNN. Apparently I was wrong, the Hamas attacks have slackened off. Whether this means that the offensive is limiting their ability to do so or if Hamas is backing off I couldn't say.
I don't know about the rights and riveleges of veterans in Israel, so I really couldn't say. I do know that Orthodox Jewish women don't serve and I assume they have full rights of citizenship. The nonservice clause in their citizenship was agreed upon between the government and Arab-Israeli representatives when the country was founded.
Edit: Oh bugger http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090103/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians
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Like so many other things you've said, I'm positive that this is untrue. Ultra-Orthodox Jews are also exempted from military service due to their religious beliefs, do you think that they are prevented from receiving medical care?
Tuss, I'm beginning to think that you're nothing more than a gullible anti-Semitic European who will swallow anything spat out by anyone that puts Israel in a bad light. This claim is absolutely ridiculous for a variety of reasons.
1. Israel has never funded Hamas, and I defy you to provide a source that shows otherwise.
2. Hamas's "social programs" that you speak of are fronts for terrorist activity. These "schools" that you speak about are places where they indoctrinate young Palestinians into anti-Semitism. They are not centers of education, they're breeding pools for young suicide bombers. The "humanitarian aid" that Hamas provides is blood money paid to the families of the suicide bombers. The soccer teams and sporting clubs sponsored by Hamas are also recruiting agencies for suicide bombers.
3. Hamas did not win the 2007 elections based on these social programs, they won because a sizable majority of Palestinians AGREE with Hamas's stated goal of removing Israel from the planet.
edit: Oh bugger.
edit 2:
When was the last time you saw Hamas care about civilian lives, on either side? Dead Israeli civilians are Hamas's goal. Dead Palestinian civilians are Hamas's propaganda weapons.
The second one has a FAQ that answers the question "Is Hamas a terrorist group?" with a no. A few lines down is the question about how Hamas recruits suicide bombers. If you recruit suicide bombers, you are at least partially a terrorist group. That's not to say that the site doesn't provide some interesting insights and info, it's just clearly very biased.
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I concede the point. I had not heard of this before. However, the article you cited appears to contradict you:
Since this article was written 6 years ago, and the Israeli backing of Hamas had already ended at the time of its writing, I doubt very much that this had anything to do with Hamas's 2007 electoral victories.
The "schools" are indoctrination sites for young terrorists. They preach anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial. Parents of attending students are required to sign oaths of allegiance to Hamas. Hamas also hides weapons caches under these buildings and then accuses Israel of targeting civilians when they try to destroy them.
Yes, such a wonderful humanitarian organization they are.
edit: And you still have yet to address the fact that the Israelis go out of their way to avoid civilian casualties, whereas Hamas revels in them.
Your usage of the word "target" is unusual.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
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