I did a quick browse of the internet and there is just massive amounts of innuendo and conjecture on the legitimacy of Obama's presidency based upon his birth.
There is an argument that because his father was not American that Obama is not a natural born citizen of the United States, and by the constitution should not have even been eligible to run.
This seems like a big red herring put out there by conservative nut jobs. The idea of the article of the constitution was to prohibit a President from having loyalties to other nations.
I find the vehemency of these arguments humorous and laughable, but perhaps there is more to it than I am seeing? Any opinions?
My understanding was both his father and mother were American citizens when he was born, in which case, he was born an American citizen, and therefore a-ok as far as the law goes.
I get the distinct feeling that the less American he acts, the better the rest of the world will feel about his presidency. Look at how the Texan wonderboy turned out for the last 8 years and he was as American as apple pie (awful, awful cliche, I feel dirty now).
My understanding was both his father and mother were American citizens when he was born, in which case, he was born an American citizen, and therefore a-ok as far as the law goes.
Doesn't matter if his father was or wasn't - only one parent needs to be a citizen for at least 5 years for them to be considered a natural born citizen. (And even then his father might have fit under the "under a visa" criteria of one of the subsections of the laws on the matter - not that it matters, since only ONE parent is required)
Wikipedia provides a list of claims and refute. I previously found a page with just the first part, and thought, heh maybe they got something here. What stuns me, is the noise a few can make, in an effort to derail legitimate work.
"Claims that Obama is not "natural-born citizen" even if born in Hawaii
In spite of the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which states that anyone born in any state is a citizen, some campaigners, such as Leo Donofrio, have asserted that Barack Obama is ineligible for the Presidency even if born in Hawaii. According to those believing in the theory, since Obama's father was Kenyan with British citizenship and not a US citizen, they argue that Obama held dual citizenship when born, or that he did not qualify for US citizenship in the first place.[6]
This claim ignores the 1898 case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark in which the Supreme Court of the United States decided that any person born in the United States is a natural-born citizen of the United States regardless of their parents' citizenship and is therefore eligible for either the American presidency or vice-presidency.[33]
In August 2008, the Rocky Mountain News ran an online article asserting that Obama is both a US and a Kenyan citizen.[34] This turned out to be incorrect. Although the paper published an apology for the mistake, it provided more fuel for online rumors about Obama's eligibility for the presidency. FactCheck noted that Obama had indeed been a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by virtue of his descent from a Kenyan father at a time when Kenya was a British colony. However, Kenya's constitution prohibits dual citizenship in adulthood. Obama had therefore automatically lost his Kenyan citizenship at age 21, in 1982, by failing to formally renounce any non-Kenyan citizenship and swear an oath of allegiance to Kenya.[35]
Philip Berg, who brought lawsuits seeking to prevent the Electoral College being seated in the 2008 presidential election, also claims that Obama was adopted by Lolo Soetoro and thus Obama lost his U.S. citizenship.[36] Obama was known as "Barry Soetoro" for a few years, after his stepfather Lolo Soetoro, when he lived in Indonesia as a child between 1967-1971.[37]"
Obama is as American as McCain is. By a similar logic, McCain is even less American that Obama, since he was born under Panamanian territory, in the Coco Solo base. You can say a berson born in Swaziland or Lesotho is South African (which would be technically both correct and incorrect... rather, politically incorrect), so McCain's citizenship as an American is even more dubious than Obama's.
I don't see people commenting on McCain not being truly American. Why is it?:muh:
There really is nothing more than you're seeing - just nonsense riled up by a few "news" celebrities.
*cough*not part of my views*cough*
There is nothing more than you are seeing.. despite how much i disagree with his policies and his blatant misleading of the American public(even as recent as the Wednesday national address, Obama is definitely an American.
I get the distinct feeling that the less American he acts, the better the rest of the world will feel about his presidency. Look at how the Texan wonderboy turned out for the last 8 years and he was as American as apple pie (awful, awful cliche, I feel dirty now).
First off who cares what the rest of the world thinks overall. Considering a very large portion of the world is muslim and Obama is christian they probably arent happy about him... but again who cares what they think.(note i am not saying be an idiot simply because you can but more to forge your own path and not worry about the other kids looking down on you.)
There is nothing more than you are seeing.. despite how much i disagree with his policies and his blatant misleading of the American public(even as recent as the Wednesday national address, Obama is definitely an American.
Ah, but blatantly misleading the American public is as American as you can get.
Seriously though, those birthers are craaaaaaazy. If Republicans (and Democrats) would spend more time cleaning up their own party and getting their collective **** together, rather than making up wild accusations to fling like monkey feces at the opposing side (or each other, depending on whether someone toes the line or not), then politics might be exciting for the RIGHT reasons, for once.
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Do you even need 1 parent, look at the border jumping pregnant women.
Those children are citizens under the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which is generally interpreted to mean that anyone born on American soil is a citizen. Eligibility for the Presidency requires that a candidate be a "natural born citizen of the United States", which may or may not be the same thing. See the articles for some of the case law, including the situation of John McCain.
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Those children are citizens under the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which is generally interpreted to mean that anyone born on American soil is a citizen. Eligibility for the Presidency requires that a candidate be a "natural born citizen of the United States", which may or may not be the same thing. See the articles for some of the case law, including the situation of John McCain.
While I agree with you that this is the correct way to interpret the 14th's citizenship clause, I'm not sure how much guidance it would give in addressing the Article II's citizenship requirements.
There are, generally, two types of people who are presumed citizens of the United States: one, those born here and covered by the 14th amendment's citizenship clause and two, those born abroad to parents who are United States citizens. The latter is governed by Congress.
The Court has given due deference to Congress to define citizenship. While Congress certainly cannot limit citizenship to something narrower than the 14th, they are well within their Constitutional bounds to set other requirements.
It is exceedingly likely that the Supreme Court would find a means to avoid the question entirely, such as classifying it as a political question and simply declining review.
It's also entirely unclear who would have standing to sue on such a claim.
Common law traditions further support the theory that "natural born" should not be confused with "born in the United States." English Common Law treated all children born to ambassadors and dignitaries abroad were "natural" subjects of England.
While I agree with you that this is the correct way to interpret the 14th's citizenship clause, I'm not sure how much guidance it would give in addressing the Article II's citizenship requirements.
I didn't mean to imply that I was sure. Truly you say that the situation is "entirely unclear".
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I did a quick browse of the internet and there is just massive amounts of innuendo and conjecture on the legitimacy of Obama's presidency based upon his birth.
There is an argument that because his father was not American that Obama is not a natural born citizen of the United States, and by the constitution should not have even been eligible to run.
How does his father not being American prevent him from being a natural born U.S. citizen? He was born in Hawaii, he's an American. That is it. Case closed.
I find the vehemency of these arguments humorous and laughable, but perhaps there is more to it than I am seeing? Any opinions?
No, there's really not more to it. He has already provided a birth certificate from Hawaii. Then people came out and said "what if he bribed them for it?" Well, what if? That smacks of people who are just desperate to disregard the facts.
By the way, even though the neocons have hijacked this non-issue, I believe this whole controversy was actually started by a Democrat.
By the way, even though the neocons have hijacked this non-issue, I believe this whole controversy was actually started by a Democrat.
The issue existed, and was dismissed, before that lawyer (who's got a history of chasing these sorts of cases to drum up publicity for himself) got involved - it didn't become common "knowledge" until his involvement however.
This is such a dumb issue. It is the silliest form of rules-lawyering. It is such an archaic technicality and the only reason that it still exists is because it is in the US Constitution.
Fact is that Obama is an American (for all that entails) by where he lives, how he lives and what he does. It's idiotic to think otherwise.
The worst of this I've seen is from someone named G. Gordon Liddy when he went on Hardball. He says he has yet seen a birth certificate, Matthews shows him the Certificate of live birth. But Liddy states that it is a "certificate of live birth" but not the "Birth certificate".
Even Ann Coulter Doesn't accept this Myth.
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"That's what the Internet's for, slandering others anonymously" - Banky Edwards
The worst of this I've seen is from someone named G. Gordon Liddy when he went on Hardball. He says he has yet seen a birth certificate, Matthews shows him the Certificate of live birth. But Liddy states that it is a "certificate of live birth" but not the "Birth certificate".
Funny thing is that G. Gordon Liddy's (who was involved in Watergate firsthand so he's obviously got a super reputation...) "birth certificate" likely says Certificate of Live Birth, since MOST states use that title.
Funny thing is that G. Gordon Liddy's (who was involved in Watergate firsthand so he's obviously got a super reputation...) "birth certificate" likely says Certificate of Live Birth, since MOST states use that title.
Not to mention the federal government itself uses the title in its suggested certificate format:
I get the distinct feeling that the less American he acts, the better the rest of the world will feel about his presidency. Look at how the Texan wonderboy turned out for the last 8 years and he was as American as apple pie (awful, awful cliche, I feel dirty now).
I eat apple pie all the time. It may have been invented and stuff in America, but it's enough of an international phenomenon now that it's not really even all that American. That doesn't mean we want any more of your cultural rubbish, but we're happy to help ourselves to the nice bits ;).
So, you need a better cliche. How about "As American as George Bush"?
I don't see people commenting on McCain not being truly American. Why is it?
Because he's white, because he's not the president, and because he's a war veteran.
Two of which are perfectly valid reasons. It doesn't matter nearly as much if some random senator isn't "Truly American" as it does if the president isn't. And even if McCain isn't a born American, what he did in Vietnam ought to make him an honorary one. Getting yourself permanently munted for a worse-than-pointless cause seems, from what I have observed, to be a very American thing to do.
Because he's white, because he's not the president, and because he's a war veteran.
Two of which are perfectly valid reasons. It doesn't matter nearly as much if some random senator isn't "Truly American" as it does if the president isn't. And even if McCain isn't a born American, what he did in Vietnam ought to make him an honorary one. Getting yourself permanently munted for a worse-than-pointless cause seems, from what I have observed, to be a very American thing to do.
Legally, it's because he had two American parents. His father is especially important, because under English common law that's who citizenship "by blood" passes down through. (And the fact that his father was a freakin' admiral, while legally irrelevant, probably has something to do with the popular sentiment.)
The interesting thing is that Kenya follows the common law too. So Obama, if I remember this correctly, held dual citizenship in the US and Kenya (which, in a bit of pointless trivia, made him a subject of the Queen of England) until he turned 21, when Kenya's constitutional ban on dual citizenship in adulthood and his failure to renounce American citizenship made him 100% American.
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There is an argument that because his father was not American that Obama is not a natural born citizen of the United States, and by the constitution should not have even been eligible to run.
This seems like a big red herring put out there by conservative nut jobs. The idea of the article of the constitution was to prohibit a President from having loyalties to other nations.
I find the vehemency of these arguments humorous and laughable, but perhaps there is more to it than I am seeing? Any opinions?
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
My understanding was both his father and mother were American citizens when he was born, in which case, he was born an American citizen, and therefore a-ok as far as the law goes.
Doesn't matter if his father was or wasn't - only one parent needs to be a citizen for at least 5 years for them to be considered a natural born citizen. (And even then his father might have fit under the "under a visa" criteria of one of the subsections of the laws on the matter - not that it matters, since only ONE parent is required)
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Enemies at the gate make a lot of noise!
I hope they enjoy their moderate in power
"Claims that Obama is not "natural-born citizen" even if born in Hawaii
In spite of the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which states that anyone born in any state is a citizen, some campaigners, such as Leo Donofrio, have asserted that Barack Obama is ineligible for the Presidency even if born in Hawaii. According to those believing in the theory, since Obama's father was Kenyan with British citizenship and not a US citizen, they argue that Obama held dual citizenship when born, or that he did not qualify for US citizenship in the first place.[6]
This claim ignores the 1898 case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark in which the Supreme Court of the United States decided that any person born in the United States is a natural-born citizen of the United States regardless of their parents' citizenship and is therefore eligible for either the American presidency or vice-presidency.[33]
In August 2008, the Rocky Mountain News ran an online article asserting that Obama is both a US and a Kenyan citizen.[34] This turned out to be incorrect. Although the paper published an apology for the mistake, it provided more fuel for online rumors about Obama's eligibility for the presidency. FactCheck noted that Obama had indeed been a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by virtue of his descent from a Kenyan father at a time when Kenya was a British colony. However, Kenya's constitution prohibits dual citizenship in adulthood. Obama had therefore automatically lost his Kenyan citizenship at age 21, in 1982, by failing to formally renounce any non-Kenyan citizenship and swear an oath of allegiance to Kenya.[35]
Philip Berg, who brought lawsuits seeking to prevent the Electoral College being seated in the 2008 presidential election, also claims that Obama was adopted by Lolo Soetoro and thus Obama lost his U.S. citizenship.[36] Obama was known as "Barry Soetoro" for a few years, after his stepfather Lolo Soetoro, when he lived in Indonesia as a child between 1967-1971.[37]"
I don't see people commenting on McCain not being truly American. Why is it?:muh:
I like 4/4s for 7.
*cough*not part of my views*cough*
There is nothing more than you are seeing.. despite how much i disagree with his policies and his blatant misleading of the American public(even as recent as the Wednesday national address, Obama is definitely an American.
First off who cares what the rest of the world thinks overall. Considering a very large portion of the world is muslim and Obama is christian they probably arent happy about him... but again who cares what they think.(note i am not saying be an idiot simply because you can but more to forge your own path and not worry about the other kids looking down on you.)
As for the last part nice troll, troll.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
Ah, but blatantly misleading the American public is as American as you can get.
Seriously though, those birthers are craaaaaaazy. If Republicans (and Democrats) would spend more time cleaning up their own party and getting their collective **** together, rather than making up wild accusations to fling like monkey feces at the opposing side (or each other, depending on whether someone toes the line or not), then politics might be exciting for the RIGHT reasons, for once.
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
Those children are citizens under the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which is generally interpreted to mean that anyone born on American soil is a citizen. Eligibility for the Presidency requires that a candidate be a "natural born citizen of the United States", which may or may not be the same thing. See the articles for some of the case law, including the situation of John McCain.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
There are, generally, two types of people who are presumed citizens of the United States: one, those born here and covered by the 14th amendment's citizenship clause and two, those born abroad to parents who are United States citizens. The latter is governed by Congress.
The Court has given due deference to Congress to define citizenship. While Congress certainly cannot limit citizenship to something narrower than the 14th, they are well within their Constitutional bounds to set other requirements.
It is exceedingly likely that the Supreme Court would find a means to avoid the question entirely, such as classifying it as a political question and simply declining review.
It's also entirely unclear who would have standing to sue on such a claim.
Common law traditions further support the theory that "natural born" should not be confused with "born in the United States." English Common Law treated all children born to ambassadors and dignitaries abroad were "natural" subjects of England.
I didn't mean to imply that I was sure. Truly you say that the situation is "entirely unclear".
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
How does his father not being American prevent him from being a natural born U.S. citizen? He was born in Hawaii, he's an American. That is it. Case closed.
No, there's really not more to it. He has already provided a birth certificate from Hawaii. Then people came out and said "what if he bribed them for it?" Well, what if? That smacks of people who are just desperate to disregard the facts.
By the way, even though the neocons have hijacked this non-issue, I believe this whole controversy was actually started by a Democrat.
The issue existed, and was dismissed, before that lawyer (who's got a history of chasing these sorts of cases to drum up publicity for himself) got involved - it didn't become common "knowledge" until his involvement however.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Fact is that Obama is an American (for all that entails) by where he lives, how he lives and what he does. It's idiotic to think otherwise.
Link to Factcheck.org:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
The worst of this I've seen is from someone named G. Gordon Liddy when he went on Hardball. He says he has yet seen a birth certificate, Matthews shows him the Certificate of live birth. But Liddy states that it is a "certificate of live birth" but not the "Birth certificate".
Even Ann Coulter Doesn't accept this Myth.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 at High Light Studios
"That's what the Internet's for, slandering others anonymously" - Banky Edwards
Haves/Wants
Funny thing is that G. Gordon Liddy's (who was involved in Watergate firsthand so he's obviously got a super reputation...) "birth certificate" likely says Certificate of Live Birth, since MOST states use that title.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Not to mention the federal government itself uses the title in its suggested certificate format:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/birth11-03final-ACC.pdf
That's absolutely hilarious, thanks for that - didn't even think to check the Federal recommendations.
I thought it was ridiculous that they were railing about it when most states are that way, but it's even the recommended way.... wow...
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
So, you need a better cliche. How about "As American as George Bush"?
Because he's white, because he's not the president, and because he's a war veteran.
Two of which are perfectly valid reasons. It doesn't matter nearly as much if some random senator isn't "Truly American" as it does if the president isn't. And even if McCain isn't a born American, what he did in Vietnam ought to make him an honorary one. Getting yourself permanently munted for a worse-than-pointless cause seems, from what I have observed, to be a very American thing to do.
Legally, it's because he had two American parents. His father is especially important, because under English common law that's who citizenship "by blood" passes down through. (And the fact that his father was a freakin' admiral, while legally irrelevant, probably has something to do with the popular sentiment.)
The interesting thing is that Kenya follows the common law too. So Obama, if I remember this correctly, held dual citizenship in the US and Kenya (which, in a bit of pointless trivia, made him a subject of the Queen of England) until he turned 21, when Kenya's constitutional ban on dual citizenship in adulthood and his failure to renounce American citizenship made him 100% American.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.