We know much of the world is christian, another large part is muslim and then there's the other religions. We read news and opinions of islam every day in newspapers, and most of us had been tought at least the basics of christianity. There is a Christian Answer Thread around. Since most of the users of this forum are Americans, and most of the Americans have been raised with christian beliefs, this forum is crowded with christians. This thread is not meant to "bash" christians or believers.
However, not everybody is in this world is religious. Not all of us believe in a god. People who do not believe in a god or gods, are called atheists. I am one of those people, and I would like to share some of my (and of other atheists) thoughts with you. In this topic it is possible to ask questions that I will answer, or hopefully another atheist when the number of questions is too high. The best, or most frequently asked questions, will be edited into the first post, so this thread can be a true FAQ in atheism.
[spoiler=What is Atheism?]
Atheism is the lack of belief in a god or gods. The term “Atheism” is literally derived from “A” which means “No” and “Theos” which means “god” thus giving you “No god”. Source: The Jesus Myth
Atheism is about not believing in god, not bragging about how you don't believe in god.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Is Atheism a religion?]
Religious groups sometimes attempt to portray Atheism as simply being another religion, placing it on a par with any other belief system, however Atheism is not a religion nor a belief system.
Religion is defined as a belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. As Atheism is the lack of belief in a supernatural power, it cannot be defined as a religion. Source: The Jesus Myth
Calling Atheism a religion is like calling not collecting stamps a Hobby. Source: Yahoo Answers
There are different reasons for this. Some atheists do feel the need to umm...'spread the message' although they miss the irony of such a mission.
Others do it because they're tired of the bigotry towards atheists. Some people are really narrow minded enough to believe that having no god equals no morality.
And still others might meet and talk because well, atheists may not believe in god, but we still feel the need to talk with like minded people. If we can't find them in person, the internet is the next best place.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Is Evolution just a Theory?]
In science, a theory means “A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.”
There are many theories in science that people seem to have no problem with. The theory of gravitation, theory of electricity, and the germ theory of disease are just a few. If someone is going to label evolution as just a theory, then all these and more must be labeled as such as well. The theory of evolution is the most attacked scientific theory in history, and it has withstood every attack. This testifies to the strength of the theory of evolution. Source: The Jesus Myth
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=What is Natural Selection?]
As you are well aware, evidence seems to show millions of years of chemicals bubbling around lead to a strand of molecules capable of replicating itself imperfectly. The imperfections of the replicants are called mutations. Mutations can affect the fitness of the replicants. The replicants that are more fit to survive in their environment tend replicate more while the replicants that aren't tend to replicate less.
This process of natural selection doesn't seem to show any signs of foresight. Whatever organism happens to survive best in it's environment is the one that survives in it's environment. This system is based on logic and probability and is completely autonomous. This process is logically capable of happening without the interference of an outside supernatural force. That is, there doesn't need to be a god to put organisms in the ecological niches that they will best fit in because ecological niches will naturally become filled by the organisms that best fill them. Natural selection makes gods superfluous in respect to the formation of life.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Is DNA too complex to be created by chance?]
Roll one thousand dice. What are the chances that they will all land on 6 at the exact same time? Slim to nihil. What are the chances that each one will land on 6 at some point though?
Try this:
Roll one thousand dice. They don't all land on 6 at the same time, but some of them do in fact land on 6. Those you can just set aside. Why? Because if they have already fallen in place then there is no need to reroll them again now is there?
So once you have rolled 1000 dice and set aside all the ones that have landed on 6, reroll the remaining dice. Roughly about a sixth of those will land on 6, right? So set those aside with the rest of the sixes and continue on with what remains.
If you keep at this long enough, eventually all of the dice will have "fallen in place".
I will try and give you a quick run down. In the lab, using the chemicals that would have been present in early earth, scientist where able to make complex amino acids form SPONTANEOUSLY. (using a small electrical current, which again would have been present, sometimes, on early earth)
The idea then is that if a small amount could make something like that over a short amount of time. Given all of earths oceans and long amount of time, thinks like DNA could easily be formed.
To clarify: Atheism is a belief pertaining to the subject of religion, if a negative one; hence, it is a "religious belief". Similarly, the Christian disbelief in Allah is a religious belief. Usually, though, atheism isn't systematic or consistent enough across nonbelievers to be compared to a religion; unlike the familiar religions, which have a substantial core of doctrines and a common body of theological thought, atheists are united only by a single negative belief, which is a tenuous link indeed.
With this in mind, there is really only one question that can go into an "Atheism FAQ" that is meant to speak for all atheists:
Do you believe in God/gods?
No.
Everything else is up in the air.
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Is Atheism a religion? Religious groups sometimes attempt to portray Atheism as simply being another religion, placing it on a par with any other belief system, however Atheism is not a religion nor a belief system.
I find it rather amusing how atheist Christopher Hitchens actually did insist, in god is not Great, that the state-sponsored atheism of Communist Russia was in fact a religion. But then, he has a rather horrendous bigotry to prop up.
Anyways, I think Blinking Spirit pretty much nailed it. There's no such thing as orthodox atheism.
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I should clarify/correct myself: the disbelief of God is actually a positive belief. A negative belief would be a mere refusal to assent to the proposition that God exists, which is something that atheists and agnostics share. Atheists go a step further by assenting to the negation of the proposition, so their belief is positive.
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I find it rather amusing how atheist Christopher Hitchens actually did insist, in god is not Great, that the state-sponsored atheism of Communist Russia was in fact a religion. But then, he has a rather horrendous bigotry to prop up.
State-sponsored atheism is most certainly not a religion, but the way the Communists tore down religion in Russia, China, and North Korea and encouraged the veneration of Lenin, Mao, and Kim, it was surely meant to fill a similar niche in citizens' minds.
I also love the way someone always, always brings up the Soviet Union in discussions on atheism like Stalin reflects on every atheist ever, btw. Just like Torquemada reflects on every Catholic, I'm sure.
I should clarify/correct myself: the disbelief of God is actually a positive belief. A negative belief would be a mere refusal to assent to the proposition that God exists, which is something that atheists and agnostics share. Atheists go a step further by assenting to the negation of the proposition, so their belief is positive.
Yup.
But while atheism is a religious belief (that is, a belief about religion), it is not a religion. There's no dogma, no rituals, no traditions.
But while atheism is a religious belief (that is, a belief about religion), it is not a religion. There's no dogma, no rituals, no traditions.
Not atheism per se, no. But it must be said that many evangelical atheists do seem to take flimsy "proofs" of God's nonexistence as doctrinal, and treat the denial of God and the attack on religion as sacraments. Richard Dawkins is their St. Paul. Their creed is the litany of horrors perpetrated by theist extremists, and their crusade is... well, that's easy enough to discern.
If any of this sounds familiar to you, atheists, you're doing it wrong. (And doesn't that just sound dogmatic?) If you find it important to disseminate atheism, to associate with fellow atheists and join atheist communities and websites, then you're creating a self-identity in accordance with a religious belief - such behavior is at the very least quasi-religious. And it is my experience that identifying yourself with an anti-belief like atheism is something petty and hollow; in this respect, if evangelical atheism is not a religion, then it's all the worse for it. If you must see the world as being in competition between theists and atheists, then isn't it a far greater victory for your "side" to live your life as though religious beliefs were unimportant?
Hmm, I seem to have gotten sidetracked. Well, treat this as a question: Why do atheists proselytize?
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I like how it's not a thread to bash Christians, yet you decided to add an anti-Christian comic to the first post...
Also, looking up atheism, MOST sources I can find say something similar to "the belief that there is no God." Agnosticism is what you claim Atheism is - the lack of belief either way.
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Does anybody else find it hysterically ironic that God and the islamic Allah are the exact same person to both religions? Both religions worship the god of abraham, so the comic in the OP doesn't even make sense, assuming you're actually knowledgable about the subject.
Atheism definitely isn't a religion, more of a way of life.
If you find it important to disseminate atheism, to associate with fellow atheists and join atheist communities and websites, then you're creating a self-identity in accordance with a religious belief - such behavior is at the very least quasi-religious.
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A skyscraper definitely isn't a jellybean, it's more of a jellybean.
There is a difference between a religion and a way of life. Being vegetarian is a way of life, not a religion. Being homosexuel is a way of life, not a religion.
There is a difference between a religion and a way of life. Being vegetarian is a way of life, not a religion. Being homosexuel is a way of life, not a religion.
See my edit. I didn't mean to imply equivocation, just similar quality.
A religion is a system of claims that constitute some worldview that is to be acknowledged with ritual or other practice. There are theistic religions, like Christianity or Judaism, and there are atheistic religions, like La Vey Satanism or Juche. There are also pantheistic and potentially deistic religions (religions that require practice on the part of adherents, but not divine interaction).
The relevant qualities of a religion are wide-scope doctrine and rigorous practice -- no contingency on gods.
So, does that mean everyone has a "religious belief?"
Depends whether you want to count agnostics' withholding of assent "belief". But if you do, then yes, everyone to whom the idea of religion or the divine occurs or has been presented has some belief on the subject.
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IMO Athiesm is Religious apathy. If I were an athiest, I'd be a pretty good one. I don't exactly believe in a diety, so maybe I am an athiest. I practice Zen Bhuddist principles and use it mainly just to better my life and center myself. I don't believe that anyone should be worshipped, unless you build it up yourself.
(Russia's communist "atheism" is actually probably the most reasonable way somebody could be worshipped. Take control over a group of people and give them no options, if they're going to worship anything, it has to be you. Not that I totally agree with what Stalin, etc, did.)
Anyways, I think that to be a real athiest, you would need to not congregate on your atheism. I meet soem people who are like "Oh, I'm an athiest, I don't believe you should be talking about your religion, because it's rude to my religion." This is not made up, a chick I know said that to someone and I was like "What the hell are you talking about?"..
Atheism is about not believing in god, not bragging about how you don't believe in god.
I don't talk about how much I don't believe in ghosts to impress people. Though I could...
As Blinking Spirit said, there's no unifying factor for Atheists. Religions are united by their worship of a common deity or common deities. Atheism has nothing to unify it other than a single word. It has no unifying moral code: that's kind of the whole point.
Plus, the whole point of the Christian FAQ thread was to represent Christianity and absolve ignorance of it in a message board largely populated by atheists/agnostics. If we had a question about why people were atheist, we'd ask ourselves first.
Atheists are convinced that God doesn't exist. Agnostics believe that it is impossible for men to know for sure.
You're describing strong atheism and strong agnosticism. There are also weak versions, weak atheists who are confident that God doesn't exist and weak agnostics who don't assent to either his existence or nonexistence, but also don't believe it's necessarily unknowable.
Saying that god doesn't exist is the same as pretending that he exists. Truth is we simply don't know and probably never will.
Three-word definition of knowledge: justified true belief. There are loads of wrinkles in this definition, but let's go with it for now. It is not required for knowledge of a proposition that we be certain of that proposition; that's a recursive definition which leads to infinite regress. (Sometimes it's written 'K(P) = K(K(P))' to make this fact more obvious.)
So: Both atheists and theists have the belief portion of "justified true belief" down pat. And both have some justification for their beliefs. Being an atheist myself, I'm bound to claim that our justifications are better, and we could fill books trying to figure out what makes justifications good or bad, but for now let's stipulate that justification is present. So the decision of the matter rests on its truth. If God exists, the theists know it and the atheists have a false belief. If God doesn't exist, the atheists know it and the theists have a false belief. But in neither case is there an absence of knowledge.
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You're describing strong atheism and strong agnosticism. There are also weak versions, weak atheists who are confident that God doesn't exist and weak agnostics who don't assent to either his existence or nonexistence, but also don't believe it's necessarily unknowable.
Three-word definition of knowledge: justified true belief. There are loads of wrinkles in this definition, but let's go with it for now. It is not required for knowledge of a proposition that we be certain of that proposition; that's a recursive definition which leads to infinite regress. (Sometimes it's written 'K(P) = K(K(P))' to make this fact more obvious.)
So: Both atheists and theists have the belief portion of "justified true belief" down pat. And both have some justification for their beliefs. Being an atheist myself, I'm bound to claim that our justifications are better, and we could fill books trying to figure out what makes justifications good or bad, but for now let's stipulate that justification is present. So the decision of the matter rests on its truth. If God exists, the theists know it and the atheists have a false belief. If God doesn't exist, the atheists know it and the theists have a false belief. But in neither case is there an absence of knowledge.
You don't know dude, you guess. Flip a coin next time, it's easier. You believe in heads or tails, but your belief is not justified. I think they call it randomness.
Conclusion: Theists and Atheist are totally random and believe in random things that randomness itself doesn't get the randomness off.
Not atheism per se, no. But it must be said that many evangelical atheists do seem to take flimsy "proofs" of God's nonexistence as doctrinal, and treat the denial of God and the attack on religion as sacraments. Richard Dawkins is their St. Paul. Their creed is the litany of horrors perpetrated by theist extremists, and their crusade is... well, that's easy enough to discern.
If any of this sounds familiar to you, atheists, you're doing it wrong. (And doesn't that just sound dogmatic?) If you find it important to disseminate atheism, to associate with fellow atheists and join atheist communities and websites, then you're creating a self-identity in accordance with a religious belief - such behavior is at the very least quasi-religious. And it is my experience that identifying yourself with an anti-belief like atheism is something petty and hollow; in this respect, if evangelical atheism is not a religion, then it's all the worse for it. If you must see the world as being in competition between theists and atheists, then isn't it a far greater victory for your "side" to live your life as though religious beliefs were unimportant?
Hmm, I seem to have gotten sidetracked. Well, treat this as a question: Why do atheists proselytize?
There are different reasons for this. Some atheists do feel the need to umm...'spread the message' although they miss the irony of such a mission.
Others do it because they're tired of the bigotry towards atheists. Some people are really narrow minded enough to believe that having no god equals no morality.
And still others might meet and talk because well, atheists may not believe in god, but we still feel the need to talk with like minded people. If we can't find them in person, the internet is the next best place.
You don't know dude, you guess. Flip a coin next time, it's easier. You believe in heads or tails, but your belief is not justified. I think they call it randomness.
Conclusion: Theists and Atheist are totally random and believe in random things that randomness itself doesn't get the randomness off.
No, you're taking justification to mean "knowledge of knowledge", which is recursive, as I already said.
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Atheists are convinced that God doesn't exist. Agnostics believe that it is impossible for men to know for sure.
Saying that god doesn't exist is the same as pretending that he exists. Truth is we simply don't know and probably never will.
Uh, no...
I do not believe that the judeo-christian god, or any other god for that matter, exists.
I am not convinced that gods do not exist, but I'm pretty confident that they don't.
First, I see no evidence to support any claims that gods exist.
Second, I see quite a bit of evidence in support of alternative explanations (natural selection to a strong degree, cyclical time to a lesser degree, etc.)
Third, I see quite a bit of evidence to show that the existence of gods would be rather unlikely (if God made the universe then who made God?)
It may be impossible to ever know for certain that there is no such thing as gods, but I can be fairly confident given that there aren't.
Lets put it this way,
I can't be certain that the U.S. government was not involved in orchestrating the 9/11 attacks, but I'm not going to assume that they were by default. The evidence I see seems to show that the 9/11 conspiracy hypotheses are rather unlikely, so for the moment I can assume for all practical intents and purposes that there was no 9/11 conspiracy. I can't know for sure, but that doesn't mean that I have to lend any credence to other people's nutjobbery.
Oh, also:
Agnostics believe that it is impossible for HUMANS to know for sure.
Fixed (removed the misogyny.)
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However, not everybody is in this world is religious. Not all of us believe in a god. People who do not believe in a god or gods, are called atheists. I am one of those people, and I would like to share some of my (and of other atheists) thoughts with you. In this topic it is possible to ask questions that I will answer, or hopefully another atheist when the number of questions is too high. The best, or most frequently asked questions, will be edited into the first post, so this thread can be a true FAQ in atheism.
[spoiler=What is Atheism?]
Atheism is the lack of belief in a god or gods. The term “Atheism” is literally derived from “A” which means “No” and “Theos” which means “god” thus giving you “No god”.
Source: The Jesus Myth
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Is Atheism a religion?]
Religious groups sometimes attempt to portray Atheism as simply being another religion, placing it on a par with any other belief system, however Atheism is not a religion nor a belief system.
Religion is defined as a belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. As Atheism is the lack of belief in a supernatural power, it cannot be defined as a religion.
Source: The Jesus Myth
Calling Atheism a religion is like calling not collecting stamps a Hobby.
Source: Yahoo Answers
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Why do atheists proselytize?]
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Is Evolution just a Theory?]
In science, a theory means “A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.”
There are many theories in science that people seem to have no problem with. The theory of gravitation, theory of electricity, and the germ theory of disease are just a few. If someone is going to label evolution as just a theory, then all these and more must be labeled as such as well. The theory of evolution is the most attacked scientific theory in history, and it has withstood every attack. This testifies to the strength of the theory of evolution.
Source: The Jesus Myth
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=What is Natural Selection?]
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Is DNA too complex to be created by chance?]
[/spoiler]
Source: The Atheist Mama
[/spoiler]
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With this in mind, there is really only one question that can go into an "Atheism FAQ" that is meant to speak for all atheists:
Do you believe in God/gods?
No.
Everything else is up in the air.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I find it rather amusing how atheist Christopher Hitchens actually did insist, in god is not Great, that the state-sponsored atheism of Communist Russia was in fact a religion. But then, he has a rather horrendous bigotry to prop up.
Anyways, I think Blinking Spirit pretty much nailed it. There's no such thing as orthodox atheism.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
State-sponsored atheism is most certainly not a religion, but the way the Communists tore down religion in Russia, China, and North Korea and encouraged the veneration of Lenin, Mao, and Kim, it was surely meant to fill a similar niche in citizens' minds.
I also love the way someone always, always brings up the Soviet Union in discussions on atheism like Stalin reflects on every atheist ever, btw. Just like Torquemada reflects on every Catholic, I'm sure.
Yup.
But while atheism is a religious belief (that is, a belief about religion), it is not a religion. There's no dogma, no rituals, no traditions.
Not atheism per se, no. But it must be said that many evangelical atheists do seem to take flimsy "proofs" of God's nonexistence as doctrinal, and treat the denial of God and the attack on religion as sacraments. Richard Dawkins is their St. Paul. Their creed is the litany of horrors perpetrated by theist extremists, and their crusade is... well, that's easy enough to discern.
If any of this sounds familiar to you, atheists, you're doing it wrong. (And doesn't that just sound dogmatic?) If you find it important to disseminate atheism, to associate with fellow atheists and join atheist communities and websites, then you're creating a self-identity in accordance with a religious belief - such behavior is at the very least quasi-religious. And it is my experience that identifying yourself with an anti-belief like atheism is something petty and hollow; in this respect, if evangelical atheism is not a religion, then it's all the worse for it. If you must see the world as being in competition between theists and atheists, then isn't it a far greater victory for your "side" to live your life as though religious beliefs were unimportant?
Hmm, I seem to have gotten sidetracked. Well, treat this as a question: Why do atheists proselytize?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
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Also, looking up atheism, MOST sources I can find say something similar to "the belief that there is no God." Agnosticism is what you claim Atheism is - the lack of belief either way.
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Atheism definitely isn't a religion, more of a way of life.
Their descriptions of the Godhead are sufficiently different that it's very much an open question whether they're talking about the same being.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
A skyscraper definitely isn't a jellybean, it's more of a tiny roundish candy.
There is a difference between a religion and a way of life. Being vegetarian is a way of life, not a religion. Being homosexuel is a way of life, not a religion.
See my edit. I didn't mean to imply equivocation, just similar quality.
A religion is a system of claims that constitute some worldview that is to be acknowledged with ritual or other practice. There are theistic religions, like Christianity or Judaism, and there are atheistic religions, like La Vey Satanism or Juche. There are also pantheistic and potentially deistic religions (religions that require practice on the part of adherents, but not divine interaction).
The relevant qualities of a religion are wide-scope doctrine and rigorous practice -- no contingency on gods.
Depends whether you want to count agnostics' withholding of assent "belief". But if you do, then yes, everyone to whom the idea of religion or the divine occurs or has been presented has some belief on the subject.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
(Russia's communist "atheism" is actually probably the most reasonable way somebody could be worshipped. Take control over a group of people and give them no options, if they're going to worship anything, it has to be you. Not that I totally agree with what Stalin, etc, did.)
Anyways, I think that to be a real athiest, you would need to not congregate on your atheism. I meet soem people who are like "Oh, I'm an athiest, I don't believe you should be talking about your religion, because it's rude to my religion." This is not made up, a chick I know said that to someone and I was like "What the hell are you talking about?"..
Atheism is about not believing in god, not bragging about how you don't believe in god.
I don't talk about how much I don't believe in ghosts to impress people. Though I could...
Saying that god doesn't exist is the same as pretending that he exists. Truth is we simply don't know and probably never will.
What the hell is the point of an Atheism FAQ?
Answer: There is none.
As Blinking Spirit said, there's no unifying factor for Atheists. Religions are united by their worship of a common deity or common deities. Atheism has nothing to unify it other than a single word. It has no unifying moral code: that's kind of the whole point.
Plus, the whole point of the Christian FAQ thread was to represent Christianity and absolve ignorance of it in a message board largely populated by atheists/agnostics. If we had a question about why people were atheist, we'd ask ourselves first.
You're describing strong atheism and strong agnosticism. There are also weak versions, weak atheists who are confident that God doesn't exist and weak agnostics who don't assent to either his existence or nonexistence, but also don't believe it's necessarily unknowable.
Three-word definition of knowledge: justified true belief. There are loads of wrinkles in this definition, but let's go with it for now. It is not required for knowledge of a proposition that we be certain of that proposition; that's a recursive definition which leads to infinite regress. (Sometimes it's written 'K(P) = K(K(P))' to make this fact more obvious.)
So: Both atheists and theists have the belief portion of "justified true belief" down pat. And both have some justification for their beliefs. Being an atheist myself, I'm bound to claim that our justifications are better, and we could fill books trying to figure out what makes justifications good or bad, but for now let's stipulate that justification is present. So the decision of the matter rests on its truth. If God exists, the theists know it and the atheists have a false belief. If God doesn't exist, the atheists know it and the theists have a false belief. But in neither case is there an absence of knowledge.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
You don't know dude, you guess. Flip a coin next time, it's easier. You believe in heads or tails, but your belief is not justified. I think they call it randomness.
Conclusion: Theists and Atheist are totally random and believe in random things that randomness itself doesn't get the randomness off.
There are different reasons for this. Some atheists do feel the need to umm...'spread the message' although they miss the irony of such a mission.
Others do it because they're tired of the bigotry towards atheists. Some people are really narrow minded enough to believe that having no god equals no morality.
And still others might meet and talk because well, atheists may not believe in god, but we still feel the need to talk with like minded people. If we can't find them in person, the internet is the next best place.
No, you're taking justification to mean "knowledge of knowledge", which is recursive, as I already said.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Uh, no...
I do not believe that the judeo-christian god, or any other god for that matter, exists.
I am not convinced that gods do not exist, but I'm pretty confident that they don't.
First, I see no evidence to support any claims that gods exist.
Second, I see quite a bit of evidence in support of alternative explanations (natural selection to a strong degree, cyclical time to a lesser degree, etc.)
Third, I see quite a bit of evidence to show that the existence of gods would be rather unlikely (if God made the universe then who made God?)
It may be impossible to ever know for certain that there is no such thing as gods, but I can be fairly confident given that there aren't.
Lets put it this way,
I can't be certain that the U.S. government was not involved in orchestrating the 9/11 attacks, but I'm not going to assume that they were by default. The evidence I see seems to show that the 9/11 conspiracy hypotheses are rather unlikely, so for the moment I can assume for all practical intents and purposes that there was no 9/11 conspiracy. I can't know for sure, but that doesn't mean that I have to lend any credence to other people's nutjobbery.
Oh, also:
Fixed (removed the misogyny.)
There is an imposter among us...