My feelings on this are very mixed these people broke the law to get into our country and now that there are 12 million of them. (But I would be willing to bet that it is a heck of a lot more than that) so we give them amnesty? So if enough people that are not citizens break the law we throw out the law? Wouldn’t giving them amnesty create a huge wave of more illegals trying to get here so they can become citizens? But on the other hand how do you deport 12,000,000+ people? Is there anything we have not tried yet?
Here is a link to a story about a bill that is in the works right now.
Scott Adams... Nothing defines humans better than their willingness to do irrational things in the pursuit of phenomenally unlikely payoffs. This is the principle behind lotteries, dating, and religion
I agree that giving the illegals who are already here amnesty doesn't help us, and is acutally very destructive. While the fate of these poor people is pretty sad, it doesn't change the fact that they broke our laws to get here, and that is completely unacceptable.
Here are some things we can/should be doing on this:
-crack down on employers hiring illegals
-crack down on fed/state/local government doling out welfare, food stamps, and other financial assistance to illegals
-secure the southern border
in other words...ENFORCE THE LAWS WE'VE ALREADY GOT IN PLACE.
It's really a lot simpler than people make it out to be. If we take away the free housing and jobs, then there are likely to be far fewer Mexicans willing to risk their lives to cross the border.
Oh, and there is one more thing - no child should be granted US citizenship just because they were born here. It should only be granted if both parents are citizens. Period.
I disagree a little, SSJ Alakazam. I don't think it's so unacceptable that they came illegally because our immigration system is screwed up to the point that I can't and won't blame them. So I agree with you only if we reform the system so it doesn't cost as much and doesn't take as long.
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[The Crafters] | [Johnnies United]
My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
Actually, here in my state, there were a few people that did get arrested for illegal immigration (CT). It was all part of a new policy that made everyone have an identity card. Since they were illegal, it was pretty easy to weed them out. They are now in court to face their convictions.
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"All people are born equal; it's what they do in life that makes them seperate"
Most illegal aliens have simply outlasted their vistas after they've made a life in the USA. People who have applied for one in 2001 are just not getting their applications reviewed by the administration, so it doesn't surprise me that we have 12 million+ illegal immigrants when the way to become a citizen is so hard and slow.
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Invites for mee?! 69 posts at 7:23PM, June 1st, 2007, Eastern US. YaYa!!
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Q: Will America's missile shield over Europe affect prices of foreign cards? A: It will. WotC will use its Magic Online programming team to hack into the missile shield control center. This will cause the control center to crash frequently . One of those crashes will lead to the bombing of every distributor in Europe. I'm afraid the effect on card prices will be catastrophic.
Those people crying "Send them back to whatever hell-hole they came from!" consider that most of them have jobs here. What is pulling 120,000 people out of the workforce going to do to the economy? On top of that, trying to find all these people in the first place to send back is a difficult enough task, and is open to extreme abuse. The sheer number of lawsuits over people who where falsely sent back to where-ever they came from would be incredible, let alone any other terrible inequities this system might introduce.
If your really concerned about new waves of immigration after amnesty, then crack down on the borders. Isn't that what we were supposed to do anyways after 9/11? Or did everyone feel safer after they started confiscating the lube from our luggage?
-secure the southern border
Don't forget the ports. Theres not nearly as many immigrants coming through in the ports, but they are coming, and they are good entry points for both terrorist operatives and illegal immigrants, not to mention drugs.
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Quote from Cochese »
Do threads in this forum ever not get hijacked by the magical invisible hand of the market guys?
On another note, the break in the amount of worker would definately screw up the economy. In another view, thousands upon thousands of jobs would be open to American workers... even if those jobs were taken by illegal imigrants because american citizens didnt want them. In another view, the homeless people would be open to jobs.
too many views.
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"All people are born equal; it's what they do in life that makes them seperate"
The situation is comparable to Europe, with people wanting to move en masse from the poorer Eastern European countries into Western Europe. I think that we ought to take a similar approach in forming some sort of American Union (including South America), and work on helping the poorer nations there develop, rather than trying to keep them out as they try to flee here.
I disagree a little, SSJ Alakazam. I don't think it's so unacceptable that they came illegally because our immigration system is screwed up to the point that I can't and won't blame them. So I agree with you only if we reform the system so it doesn't cost as much and doesn't take as long.
I do agree with you that our system of legal immigration could stand to be improved, but in my eyes, that in no way absolves the illegals of responsibility for their own actions.
Most illegal aliens have simply outlasted their vistas after they've made a life in the USA. People who have applied for one in 2001 are just not getting their applications reviewed by the administration, so it doesn't surprise me that we have 12 million+ illegal immigrants when the way to become a citizen is so hard and slow.
Most illegal aliens have outlasted their visas? I don't believe that - do you have any sources to back up your claim?
Those people crying "Send them back to whatever hell-hole they came from!" consider that most of them have jobs here. What is pulling 120,000 people out of the workforce going to do to the economy? On top of that, trying to find all these people in the first place to send back is a difficult enough task, and is open to extreme abuse. The sheer number of lawsuits over people who where falsely sent back to where-ever they came from would be incredible, let alone any other terrible inequities this system might introduce.
I don't think I or anyone else here is suggesting that we round up every illegal man, woman, and child and deport them, nor do I think that the fact the dealing with this issue is a difficult task is any excuse not to take action and enforce our laws.
Also, I would argue that their are much greater inequalities caused by the ways things are being done now (with illegals having access to public schools, healthcare, and housing all WITHOUT having to pay taxes) than there would be in actually trying to deal with the problem.
Don't forget the ports. Theres not nearly as many immigrants coming through in the ports, but they are coming, and they are good entry points for both terrorist operatives and illegal immigrants, not to mention drugs.
Indeed. Securing our ports is also important in keeping people from immigrating into this country illegally.
The situation is comparable to Europe, with people wanting to move en masse from the poorer Eastern European countries into Western Europe. I think that we ought to take a similar approach in forming some sort of American Union (including South America), and work on helping the poorer nations there develop, rather than trying to keep them out as they try to flee here.
Thats what I put forth some time ago. Help the countries they are coming from economically grow. Make it so they don't want/need to come here. I am sure the vast majority of them would be perfectly happy to stay in their countries of origin if only they could find jobs there.
Anyone who supports the Iraqi war because w'ere "helping" them needs to support this aswell or they are a huge hypocrite. Especially if they say "Its not our concern."; no, everyone elses afairs are our concern, or so it appears to be...
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Quote from Cochese »
Do threads in this forum ever not get hijacked by the magical invisible hand of the market guys?
Anyone who supports the Iraqi war because w'ere "helping" them needs to support this aswell or they are a huge hypocrite. Especially if they say "Its not our concern."; no, everyone elses afairs are our concern, or so it appears to be...
Well that's hyperbole. Remember that we have limited resources. The Iraq war has cost us many billions of dollars.
The tricky thing about this is it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Amnesty does nothing to solve the problems created by illegal immigrants or to stem the flow. But identifying, catching, prosecuting and/or deporting 12 million people is neither feasible nor desireable for the economy (not that I'm happy about the effect illegal immigrants have on the economy, but their sudden removel en masse would certainly have massive negative reprocussions).
I agree with reforming the immigration process. As much as it currently serves a noble purpose of controlling the inflow of unskilled labor into the country to prevent overwhelming what our economy can absorb, it's not effective and the reality is much worse. So, make it easier for people to become citizens; simplify and expedite the process and get people in the system who want to be here.
The same goes for those who are already here. Idealogically I don't agree with amnesty, but it's the most practical solution. Document the workers. Get them paying taxes and in the labor unions and going through goddamn driver's ed classes.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
Well that's hyperbole. Remember that we have limited resources. The Iraq war has cost us many billions of dollars.
Thats exactly it; if your willing to support a failed venture like the Iraq War, then trying to help people where the costs to the US are significantly less, and were a positive outcome is actually feasible with little expenditure should be a no-brainer.
Also, maybe we should stay away from calling them illegals? Its dehumanizing.
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Quote from Cochese »
Do threads in this forum ever not get hijacked by the magical invisible hand of the market guys?
Wow. That ought to qualify as racism. I'm disappointed Kraj. Really.
Harkius
Feel free to turn down the piety volume at any time.
First of all, it's not racism. "Illegal immigrants" is not a race. I really don't care if an illegal immigrant is from Mexico, or from any Latin nation whatsoever, or Canada, or China, or Zimbabwe. The same policies apply. Just because the vast majority of illegal immigrants are currently from Mexico doesn't turn comments about illegal immigrants into comments about Mexicans.
Second, considering the huge population of illegal immigrants in the Chicago area who drive (by definition) without a license, training, insurance, or ability to read road signs, I'd say my statement is a pretty damn valid complaint. Just because I chose to present it in an abrasive manner doesn't make it racist.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
Oh, and there is one more thing - no child should be granted US citizenship just because they were born here. It should only be granted if both parents are citizens. Period.
I utterly disagree with this statement. My parents are immigrants, and I was lucky enough to be born in this country. There are few greater privileges in this world than to be born an American citizen in these times. I think a better solution is to grant citizenship to children born to legal immigrants, but not to children born to illegal immigrants.
I really hate how many activist groups have decided that people who are against on illegal immigration are against immigration in general. No one intelligent is against immigration - the part we take issue with "illegal." The law may not be perfect and the system may not be fair, but the world ain't perfect and the world ain't fair. I believe that the right people in this country will work as fast as our process allows to ensure that our laws serve everyone as best they can, but in the meantime, people who are not citizens of this country - no matter how otherwise decent or hardworking they might be - do not get to ignore our laws.
Still, I am more a supporter of practical solutions than moral soapboxing. The 12,000,000 illegal immigrants in this country shouldn't be here in principle, and it is somewhat unfair that they get to enjoy benefits without paying taxes. Nevertheless, it's not like their lives are cakewalks, and many of them certainly work hard and contribute to our economy. Although I do think they should face penalties if caught, I don't think we should waste resources on a massive crackdown.
The problem is, of course, that unlike other issues, illegal immigration is too complex to sort out with a single strategy. Reform our immigration laws too much, and you put national security at risk. Require national ID cards, and you add another layer of bureacracy. I would support getting tough with Mexico to get its act together so that its people would not want to come here in such great numbers, but a tough foreign policy toward Mexico might push even more people over the border in the short term. That's probably why building the wall seems so attractive to so many people: it's a simple solution. Unfortunately, walls seem to have a habit of not working. Just ask China.
Uhh...terrorists applying for citizenship? Uhhh...the safety of American labor? Uhh...American education? Uhh...the importation of a huge class of people who have fewer ties to this land then their homeland and who have little or nothing in common (culturally) with the people here, creating a divisiveness that will result only in such comments as "They can't drive, goddamnit!!"
Harkius
I'll be your Huckleberry.
The problem with saying that implying that illegal immigrants can't drive is racism is that it simply isn't. People who grow up in the United States, whether white or black or red or brown or yellow, take driver's ed courses. From there they gain the ability to drive. People who grow up in a different educational system throughout most of Latin America do not have these courses. Not only is noting this not racism, but it would imply some sort of latent racial superiority if they were somehow able to, as a demographic, drive at an equal level of proficiency without said training.
Also, I don't know why people forget this, but there are very sizable white and black populations in most of South and Central America. It's not really a homogeneous region of the world.
To answer your query:
Drug dealers and other violent criminals hide in illegal immigrant communities, or those that harbor large numbers of illegal immigrants, because the people there do not trust the police and will not report thefts and rapes and murders for fear of, not only retaliation, but being deported.
However, like with silly drug and prostitution laws, by removing unnecessary immigrant laws and discouraging this fear, the currently existing safe havens for such violent criminals will gradually disappear, as the silence of their neighbors will no longer be assured.
It seems to me what people often forget is that you can't just wave a magic wand and make 12+ millions of people disappear. In fact, the reason that immigration laws are so lax now is that it is simply impossible for our government to find these people. Without a real SS#, they are virtually invisible to our system. In my opinion the only way immigration reform even has the slightest chance to work is if the government sets up a compromise between the illegals and the rest of the population. For example, consider the outcomes of these two immigration reform bills:
Bill A
Illegals in this country have a choice:
A) Come forward lured by the thought of real US citizenship, pay a penalty, get an ID card, take a test, probably become legal.
B) Stay in the shadows, pay nothing, and possibly live out the rest of their lives as illegals with the ever present risk of getting deported eventually.
Bill B
Illegals in this country have a choice:
A) Come forward, pay a fine and get deported eventually.
B) Stay in the shadows, pay nothing, and possibly live out the rest of their lives as illegals with the ever present risk of getting deported eventually.
For those that don't understand this analogy, Bill A is a very brief summary of the bill that is currently trying to be pushed though congress. Bill B is something along the lines of what republicans are clamoring for. Admittedly each bill is only strong if you can actually scare illegals into coming forward (which I don't even believe to be true in the long run anyway), but my point is - can you spot the gaping flaw in logic in Bill B?
What is wrong with amnesty? Don't give me any crap about jobs or such and such. Any economist/farmer/employer/illegal immigrant can tell you the many particular reasons why most Americans know jack **** about how immigrants really affect the health of the US economy.
What we do need is some way to screen these guys before they get in. We definitely need some more border security.
I utterly disagree with this statement. My parents are immigrants, and I was lucky enough to be born in this country. There are few greater privileges in this world than to be born an American citizen in these times. I think a better solution is to grant citizenship to children born to legal immigrants, but not to children born to illegal immigrants.
I agree whole heartedly on this one.
Now I have not seen anyone bring this one up yet, wouldn’t giving them amnesty create a huge wave of more illegals trying to get here so they can become citizens? With Mexico so close could we effectively make that country’s government unstable with a mass migration that this might lead to?
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Scott Adams... Nothing defines humans better than their willingness to do irrational things in the pursuit of phenomenally unlikely payoffs. This is the principle behind lotteries, dating, and religion
The comment I see about illegal immigrants time and time again is "They're not criminals, they just want a better life!"
No. They ARE criminals, because they broke the law. Just because they may not have broken any more laws after entering this country doesn't mean they aren't still criminals. I firmly believe that laws should be enforced. That's why they're there, after all. If you want to allow more immigrants into this country, don't stop enforcing the laws, change the laws. It seems silly to say "oh, sure, hang on to this absurdly difficult immigration process that takes forever, but in the mean time let's let everyone else cross the border illegally!"
Let's fix the real problem, and stop making criminals of people who just want a better life in America.
Actually there are more illegal immigrants from North Africa than from Eastern Europe. They come to Italy or other countries by ship.
I meant before they began extending greater aid to Eastern Europe, although as North Africa is also a close neighbor, that works as an analogy as well.
The comment I see about illegal immigrants time and time again is "They're not criminals, they just want a better life!"
No. They ARE criminals, because they broke the law. Just because they may not have broken any more laws after entering this country doesn't mean they aren't still criminals. I firmly believe that laws should be enforced. That's why they're there, after all. If you want to allow more immigrants into this country, don't stop enforcing the laws, change the laws. It seems silly to say "oh, sure, hang on to this absurdly difficult immigration process that takes forever, but in the mean time let's let everyone else cross the border illegally!"
While technically correct, this is a red herring. Most people against trying to kick out all twelve million illegals living in this country are for expediting the process and changing the laws. The point is that only necessary and just laws should be enforced, not arbitrary and unjust ones.
While technically correct, this is a red herring. Most people against trying to kick out all twelve million illegals living in this country are for expediting the process and changing the laws. The point is that only necessary and just laws should be enforced, not arbitrary and unjust ones.
The current immigration laws are not arbitrary or unjust; they are merely insufficient. Regardless, only citizens of a nation should have the right to challenge an unjust law, not foreigners.
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Here is a link to a story about a bill that is in the works right now.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/14/congress.immigration.bill/index.html
Here are some things we can/should be doing on this:
-crack down on employers hiring illegals
-crack down on fed/state/local government doling out welfare, food stamps, and other financial assistance to illegals
-secure the southern border
in other words...ENFORCE THE LAWS WE'VE ALREADY GOT IN PLACE.
It's really a lot simpler than people make it out to be. If we take away the free housing and jobs, then there are likely to be far fewer Mexicans willing to risk their lives to cross the border.
Oh, and there is one more thing - no child should be granted US citizenship just because they were born here. It should only be granted if both parents are citizens. Period.
69 posts at 7:23PM, June 1st, 2007, Eastern US. YaYa!!
If your really concerned about new waves of immigration after amnesty, then crack down on the borders. Isn't that what we were supposed to do anyways after 9/11? Or did everyone feel safer after they started confiscating the lube from our luggage?
Don't forget the ports. Theres not nearly as many immigrants coming through in the ports, but they are coming, and they are good entry points for both terrorist operatives and illegal immigrants, not to mention drugs.
On another note, the break in the amount of worker would definately screw up the economy. In another view, thousands upon thousands of jobs would be open to American workers... even if those jobs were taken by illegal imigrants because american citizens didnt want them. In another view, the homeless people would be open to jobs.
too many views.
I do agree with you that our system of legal immigration could stand to be improved, but in my eyes, that in no way absolves the illegals of responsibility for their own actions.
Most illegal aliens have outlasted their visas? I don't believe that - do you have any sources to back up your claim?
I don't think I or anyone else here is suggesting that we round up every illegal man, woman, and child and deport them, nor do I think that the fact the dealing with this issue is a difficult task is any excuse not to take action and enforce our laws.
Also, I would argue that their are much greater inequalities caused by the ways things are being done now (with illegals having access to public schools, healthcare, and housing all WITHOUT having to pay taxes) than there would be in actually trying to deal with the problem.
Indeed. Securing our ports is also important in keeping people from immigrating into this country illegally.
Thats what I put forth some time ago. Help the countries they are coming from economically grow. Make it so they don't want/need to come here. I am sure the vast majority of them would be perfectly happy to stay in their countries of origin if only they could find jobs there.
Anyone who supports the Iraqi war because w'ere "helping" them needs to support this aswell or they are a huge hypocrite. Especially if they say "Its not our concern."; no, everyone elses afairs are our concern, or so it appears to be...
Well that's hyperbole. Remember that we have limited resources. The Iraq war has cost us many billions of dollars.
I agree with reforming the immigration process. As much as it currently serves a noble purpose of controlling the inflow of unskilled labor into the country to prevent overwhelming what our economy can absorb, it's not effective and the reality is much worse. So, make it easier for people to become citizens; simplify and expedite the process and get people in the system who want to be here.
The same goes for those who are already here. Idealogically I don't agree with amnesty, but it's the most practical solution. Document the workers. Get them paying taxes and in the labor unions and going through goddamn driver's ed classes.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Thats exactly it; if your willing to support a failed venture like the Iraq War, then trying to help people where the costs to the US are significantly less, and were a positive outcome is actually feasible with little expenditure should be a no-brainer.
Also, maybe we should stay away from calling them illegals? Its dehumanizing.
What do you mean? Where does "the safety of American citizens" come into the equation?
Feel free to turn down the piety volume at any time.
First of all, it's not racism. "Illegal immigrants" is not a race. I really don't care if an illegal immigrant is from Mexico, or from any Latin nation whatsoever, or Canada, or China, or Zimbabwe. The same policies apply. Just because the vast majority of illegal immigrants are currently from Mexico doesn't turn comments about illegal immigrants into comments about Mexicans.
Second, considering the huge population of illegal immigrants in the Chicago area who drive (by definition) without a license, training, insurance, or ability to read road signs, I'd say my statement is a pretty damn valid complaint. Just because I chose to present it in an abrasive manner doesn't make it racist.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I utterly disagree with this statement. My parents are immigrants, and I was lucky enough to be born in this country. There are few greater privileges in this world than to be born an American citizen in these times. I think a better solution is to grant citizenship to children born to legal immigrants, but not to children born to illegal immigrants.
I really hate how many activist groups have decided that people who are against on illegal immigration are against immigration in general. No one intelligent is against immigration - the part we take issue with "illegal." The law may not be perfect and the system may not be fair, but the world ain't perfect and the world ain't fair. I believe that the right people in this country will work as fast as our process allows to ensure that our laws serve everyone as best they can, but in the meantime, people who are not citizens of this country - no matter how otherwise decent or hardworking they might be - do not get to ignore our laws.
Still, I am more a supporter of practical solutions than moral soapboxing. The 12,000,000 illegal immigrants in this country shouldn't be here in principle, and it is somewhat unfair that they get to enjoy benefits without paying taxes. Nevertheless, it's not like their lives are cakewalks, and many of them certainly work hard and contribute to our economy. Although I do think they should face penalties if caught, I don't think we should waste resources on a massive crackdown.
The problem is, of course, that unlike other issues, illegal immigration is too complex to sort out with a single strategy. Reform our immigration laws too much, and you put national security at risk. Require national ID cards, and you add another layer of bureacracy. I would support getting tough with Mexico to get its act together so that its people would not want to come here in such great numbers, but a tough foreign policy toward Mexico might push even more people over the border in the short term. That's probably why building the wall seems so attractive to so many people: it's a simple solution. Unfortunately, walls seem to have a habit of not working. Just ask China.
I'll be your Huckleberry.
The problem with saying that implying that illegal immigrants can't drive is racism is that it simply isn't. People who grow up in the United States, whether white or black or red or brown or yellow, take driver's ed courses. From there they gain the ability to drive. People who grow up in a different educational system throughout most of Latin America do not have these courses. Not only is noting this not racism, but it would imply some sort of latent racial superiority if they were somehow able to, as a demographic, drive at an equal level of proficiency without said training.
Also, I don't know why people forget this, but there are very sizable white and black populations in most of South and Central America. It's not really a homogeneous region of the world.
To answer your query:
Drug dealers and other violent criminals hide in illegal immigrant communities, or those that harbor large numbers of illegal immigrants, because the people there do not trust the police and will not report thefts and rapes and murders for fear of, not only retaliation, but being deported.
However, like with silly drug and prostitution laws, by removing unnecessary immigrant laws and discouraging this fear, the currently existing safe havens for such violent criminals will gradually disappear, as the silence of their neighbors will no longer be assured.
Bill A
Illegals in this country have a choice:
A) Come forward lured by the thought of real US citizenship, pay a penalty, get an ID card, take a test, probably become legal.
B) Stay in the shadows, pay nothing, and possibly live out the rest of their lives as illegals with the ever present risk of getting deported eventually.
Bill B
Illegals in this country have a choice:
A) Come forward, pay a fine and get deported eventually.
B) Stay in the shadows, pay nothing, and possibly live out the rest of their lives as illegals with the ever present risk of getting deported eventually.
For those that don't understand this analogy, Bill A is a very brief summary of the bill that is currently trying to be pushed though congress. Bill B is something along the lines of what republicans are clamoring for. Admittedly each bill is only strong if you can actually scare illegals into coming forward (which I don't even believe to be true in the long run anyway), but my point is - can you spot the gaping flaw in logic in Bill B?
What is wrong with amnesty? Don't give me any crap about jobs or such and such. Any economist/farmer/employer/illegal immigrant can tell you the many particular reasons why most Americans know jack **** about how immigrants really affect the health of the US economy.
What we do need is some way to screen these guys before they get in. We definitely need some more border security.
Now I have not seen anyone bring this one up yet, wouldn’t giving them amnesty create a huge wave of more illegals trying to get here so they can become citizens? With Mexico so close could we effectively make that country’s government unstable with a mass migration that this might lead to?
Actually there are more illegal immigrants from North Africa than from Eastern Europe. They come to Italy or other countries by ship.
Wise words:
No. They ARE criminals, because they broke the law. Just because they may not have broken any more laws after entering this country doesn't mean they aren't still criminals. I firmly believe that laws should be enforced. That's why they're there, after all. If you want to allow more immigrants into this country, don't stop enforcing the laws, change the laws. It seems silly to say "oh, sure, hang on to this absurdly difficult immigration process that takes forever, but in the mean time let's let everyone else cross the border illegally!"
Let's fix the real problem, and stop making criminals of people who just want a better life in America.
I meant before they began extending greater aid to Eastern Europe, although as North Africa is also a close neighbor, that works as an analogy as well.
While technically correct, this is a red herring. Most people against trying to kick out all twelve million illegals living in this country are for expediting the process and changing the laws. The point is that only necessary and just laws should be enforced, not arbitrary and unjust ones.
The current immigration laws are not arbitrary or unjust; they are merely insufficient. Regardless, only citizens of a nation should have the right to challenge an unjust law, not foreigners.