MTG Salvation

This has been a pretty hot topic recently with a bunch of people I have talked to. Some say we are Rome; other say we're not.

BTW, when I say "Rome", I mean the Western part of Rome that fell in 476 A.D.

To me, I don't see this happening. Yes, America will eventually meet its demise (all nations can't last forever), but we won't fall like Rome. Although we have a powerful influence on the world and powerful military, the big difference between us and Rome is that we're a democracy, and the Roman Empire was authoritarian.

I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this, because this has stirred up great discussion where I'm at.

I'll do my best to add more as the discussion goes on; it's 12:07 AM right now as I type this up.

Its fall not like Rome under barbarians horde its fall because didnt have money. Conquest of Irac can save it but its too hard do conquest fanatics. Growing power of Russia and China destroy America's economic.

I cast my vote for no.

What exactly do you mean, "fall like Rome"? The fall of Rome is attributed to many causes and was a process that took many years, culminating in the fall of the city in 476. Will Washington, D.C., be sacked by Germanic barbarians? I firmly believe that it will not. But I can certainly see parallels between the years of decline in Rome and some contemporary social issues that we face.

Also, "fall" can mean many different things. The government could collapse, or our way of life could simply be radically altered, or there might be widespread physical destruction, or we might lose influence to another power, or any of combination of the above.

It is very difficult to discuss this question because we must not only consider the fate of America, but the fate of the nation-state in general. As the global economy grows, international organizations like the EU become stronger, and people and ideas continue to travel more freely than they have ever before, who can say what role nations will play in the future? Maybe we won't so much fall as the developing world will catch up. Maybe nations will no longer be the units by which we measure international affairs.

I do not believe that in the near future, there will be any major violent event that results in seriously catastrophic changes for the American people.

As to whether or not we're Rome, I believe we are in the sense that we are the empire of our times. This is a privilege that few peoples have enjoyed in history, and it is one worth treasuring.

I also vote no.

Soon the lines between nations will ultimately be blurred beyond recognition. The only major difference between America and other Western nations lies solely in name, traditions and some varying laws. Compare Britain, Australia and the US - while way of life differs slightly, there are no defining differences which separated Rome and other states/peoples. Technology has also reached a point where the single fall of a culture or nation as large as the US in unbelievable, due to both its power and importance in both the financial and social world.

Well, britain, australia and america are all fine choices and all, but think about other countries. The ones i concern myself with are the ones in Middle East and Russia. With the growing concern of Nuclear Power in Iran, we really cant be sure of much. America, i believe will eventually decline as a world power. Maybe not like Rome, but maybe were just spreading ourselve a little too thin. In another view, the world had no actual countries, it was just who could hold the moost land for the most time.

Been to canada recently?


I think yes. There's a lot of parallels already from the rampant trade deficit to the emphasis on military prowess instead of social reform.

USA =/= Rome.

At the height of its power Rome comprised a large part of the then-known Western world, and it was an imperialist empire, as opposed to a democracy (some might want to debate this point). Rome was in a constant attempt to expand its border and this eventually led to its demise (there weren't enough persons to manage appropriately the empire).

In short I voted 'no'.

I think the key thing to consider here is that we're not like the Roman Empire, we're like the Roman Republic. Ever since the "experiment in democracy" began, a tug of war was created between people who want to keep it that way and people who want it to fall to authoritarianism. I feel that it is only a matter of time until we become the American Empire in all but name - something we are perilously close to now.

I'm still of the belief the Cheney and the entire Neo-Con crowd have an agenda to keep the US as the Rome of our times, without the nasty side-effects or the collapse at the end. Hence the emphasis on legislating morality. Hence the continued feeding of the military-industrial complex. Hence the huge deficit? Well, they can't succeed on all accounts...

Seriously though, one could draw alot of parallels to Rome from the over-extention of military power, to the huge debt, to corruption in the political process, etc... however, I do believe that most nations today, including the US, have the ability to reinvent themselves and keep away stagnation of political and economic processes to prevent any total collapse of any single nation. Could our world standing drastically decrease? I believe so. Could we face some hard times? Sure, but I seriously doubt the ability of any modern nation to completley collapse.

The U.S. will fall. Soon. 100 years or less. I'm not sure how comparable it will be to Rome though. We will probably see a brief period of dictatorship before the collapse.

The collapse will be financial. It will come as a result of the U.S. occupation of 100+ U.N. member States, the increasing debt, entitlements, the expanding public sector which will soon include socialized medicine which is going to kill and/or impoverish hundreds of thousands if not millions, the inevitable failures in State-run education, the use of the military as police on U.S. soil, and for purposes of disarming the general public and locking down the border.

There are plenty more reasons but that is a good start.

American dominance over the globe will fall eventually, but to say it will 'fall like Rome' is inaccurate for the simple reason that America and Rome, while having some things in common, are not the same.

America will fall like America. Whatever that will look like.

Quote from ljossberir

The U.S. will fall. Soon. 100 years or less. I'm not sure how comparable it will be to Rome though. We will probably see a brief period of dictatorship before the collapse.

The collapse will be financial. It will come as a result of the U.S. occupation of 100+ U.N. member States, the increasing debt, entitlements, the expanding public sector which will soon include socialized medicine which is going to kill and/or impoverish hundreds of thousands if not millions, the inevitable failures in State-run education, the use of the military as police on U.S. soil, and for purposes of disarming the general public and locking down the border.

There are plenty more reasons but that is a good start.

Are you basing your viewpoint on lessons from history or on lessons from post-apocalyptic science fiction?

I'm going to cast my vote for Yes, but only because America's fall will most likely be complex and be caused by several interdependent factors, much like Rome's actually was (while barbarian invasions usurped the Emperor of the West in 476 AD, they had been attacking for two centuries and several provinces kept the name "Rome" for decades after the last emperor had died.)

We're already seeing signs of the people losing power, mounting financial debt, corruption, environmental destruction, and unrest at home and abroad. While I doubt a long foreign assault is going to weaken us at home (unless someone's counting a wave of illegal immigrants who want to work with us as "assault"), I'm also beginning to lose hope. If I was placing bets I'd say we have about 100 years left.

A slight aside: Many empires and large states have fallen since Rome. How come nobody draws parallels to the Ottoman Empire, or to, say, the USSR?

Quote from RyAqua

A slight aside: Many empires and large states have fallen since Rome. How come nobody draws parallels to the Ottoman Empire, or to, say, the USSR?

I too have noticed this and I have a few guesses and theories, some based on research others based on pure gut instinct. Here they are:

1. The collapse of Rome greatly shaped western Europe, which has for the last few centuries, been the dominant culture/region of the world. Europeans formed the backbone of modern American, thus present-day American can trace it's history back to Rome.

2. Rome's fall was linked to the rise of Christianity. If virtues could be used in historical debates, than the argument would be that Rome fell because of the loss of civic virtue among its citizens, which was a result of Christ's influence among the people for a better life after death. This theory was first argued by one Edward Gibbon, found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Gibbon

With the push for homosexual acceptance, decreasing democratic practices (American Idol, corruption in government, etc.) and other fun issues, many see Rome's faults in America.

3. Rome's publicity. The Roman empire carries a lot of fame, due in some part to historians such as Edward Gibbons as well as the rise of west European states from the 14-20th century, who helped spread Rome's fame. The Mongol Empire, which surpassed Rome in size, is rarely talked about or even remembered.

4. Linked with number 2, many Americans see their country as a 'Christian nation'. It would be blasphemy to compare such a god given country to an empire run by Muslims or even worse, godless communists. (End sarcasm)

As was pointed out, other empires have existed in other parts of the globe that were equally grand/terrible/large. However, due to historical ties and perhaps bias, America is often compared to the old Roman Empire.

While the fall/decline of the Ottoman is a valid comparison, the Mongol Imperium and the USSR don't have alot in common with the US. The Mongol Imperium fell thanks to the assimilation of the mongol conquerors with the populace, and the inadequate succession procedures of the Mongols. Likewise, with the USSR, they are more an example of how the US probably WONT fall that how it will: isolated, cold, and starving.

Quote from Sobek

While the fall/decline of the Ottoman is a valid comparison, the Mongol Imperium and the USSR don't have alot in common with the US. The Mongol Imperium fell thanks to the assimilation of the mongol conquerors with the populace, and the inadequate succession procedures of the Mongols. Likewise, with the USSR, they are more an example of how the US probably WONT fall that how it will: isolated, cold, and starving.

The Roman empire was attacked by outsiders in all directions. With an ocean on both sides and semi-decent to good relationships with both its neighbors, I highly doubt the USA will be attacked by outsiders all that often (random sneak attack not withstanding).

However, as I said on the previous page (the post Sobek quoted was merely in reply to the question 'why is America so often compared to Rome as opposed to X, Y or Z empire?') each state is different from the next.
Just as the America people and culture are different from that of Rome, so too will America's fall from dominance be different.

ialthough i think it'll fall. America wil probably go down like britain. still stable but not number one any more.

Goddamn, this thread is depressing.

To anyone responding, "No, obviously there's no Germanic barbarians waiting to defeat us!": way to completely and utterly cop out of the question.
If you really insist on drawing that comparison, how about we take a step further and call Mexican immigrants our own version of the barbarians? Mind you, I'm not saying they'll storm our capital, or that they would succeed if they did so, but for argument's sake let's not speak in specifics.

I've been thinking about the imperial qualities of America recently, which is kind of oddly coincidental.

I voted "Unsure" in the poll. There's no way to say for certain. I don't think it will be mich like Rome. America will eventually come to an end, but I don't think it will be in a particularly radical or violent manner. I believe that the USA will last until total globalization (if that ever happens), or until we start the true Space Age and start living off-planet.

Of course, if total globalization occurs it will not be because America conquers everyone else, but because everyone agrees it's the best thing. It might not happen, though, because competition is the best spark for cultural advancement (see Cold War for reference).

If America falls, the fall will probably mirror that of Rome: with most, if not all modern society falling at a similar time due to some worldwide economic, natural, or nuclear disasters.

However, I do not think America will fall, especially any time in the near future, and I think that there would be many warning signs. Many (most) people dislike (/hate) what Bush is doing right now, and are probably comparing his work to the later Roman Emperors, but America is still a Democracy, with most of its Liberties. A new president will be in office in a year and a half (no dictator), the populace is generally content with their lives (no revolts), and our neighbors are not threatening to take us over militarily (no conquest).

I also think that the biggest precursor to the fall of America would be the adoption of a completely isolationist policy in addition to giving the government too many powers as a reaction to world problems. Since that hasn't happened yet (and today's communication and media I don't see it happing), I don't envision America collapsing too soon in the future.

Quote from RyAqua

A slight aside: Many empires and large states have fallen since Rome. How come nobody draws parallels to the Ottoman Empire, or to, say, the USSR?

Our democracy can trace its roots back to Rome when it was a republic. The idea of checks and balances, indirect democracy, legal system, etc.; the founding fathers took a lot of this into account when they created the Constitution.

Yes.

See Also.

Someone really needs to create a globalization thread, because every time IBA says anything in support of destroying the sovereignty of every country in the world, I want to jump down his throat.