Heaven is a spiritual state of the soul in which we "see the face of God." It is the most extreme and blissfully intimate state a soul can ever achieve. The Bible attempts to describe it using metaphors like having golden streets, composed of pearl architecture, and being a large house.
"This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell.'" (CCC 1033) "The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs." (CCC 1035) This eternal longing in the absence of communion with God is very sad and painful, and the Bible attempts to describe it using metaphors like a lake of fire and an ever-burning garbage pit.
...or, if you subscribe to a less sophisticated form of Christianity, they actually are what extremestan describes as metaphors. There actually is (or will be) a place of pearl with golden streets where good people live after they die. And so on for Hell.
Where exactly these places are, and how a soul gets there after the brain that it emerged from shuts down and becomes dust, has never to my knowledge been adequately explained - though Dante gives it a good show, he's really writing more in stan's vein (despite what many of his readers believed) - so perhaps the metaphorical interpretation has a point.
As for me, I think them, and all afterlives, to be a means for sidestepping the quite difficult-to-fully-grasp idea that one will at some point lose consciousness permanently. This state of oblivion is, almost by definition, incomprehensible and unimaginable, so people decided that that consciousness had to go somewhere when it obviously wasn't around here anymore, and continue to be conscious eternally. Before you condemn our forebears as superstitious buffoons who'd rather make up a platitude than face truth, though, remember that there wasn't much or any evidence that this wasn't the case. Jesus wasn't a neurologist armed with modern theories and equipment, but he did the best he could; he presented a theory of life, death, and consciousness that made sense to him, and to those listening to him, too. He also tied one's fate to one's morality, which was a nice touch that produced who-knows-how-much practical benefit for humans still on this mortal coil.
Quote from me, but written by William Shakespeare »
Alas, poor Yorick! - I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy... Where be your gibes now? your gambols? your songs? your flashes of merriment, that were wont to set the table on a roar?
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I'm shocked to be in essential agreement with Stan on matters of "metaphysics." I believe that "heaven" is a metaphor for a state of being Buddhists call "enlightenment" or "nirvana."
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:symtap:, sacrifice White Privilege: Destroy economic injustice.
I'm a pagan and don't believe in heaven or hell. I'll likely have a brief stay in the Summerlands and then be reincarnated when I'm ready. The Summerlands is a sort of in between place. Between your previous life and your next life. You don't get to choose what you come back as either. You could be a human again but then you might end up as a blade of grass or a doggy.
Anyways...according to Christian texts hell doesn't even exist yet. When you die you're dead and only after Armageddon do you go to heaven or hell. You are judged by you deeds in the book of life and if you're found wanting then your name is erased. The Bible actually says that you'll be cast into a lake of fire and that hell and death will be locked away inside it. Its not actually called hell.
The Bible actually says that you'll be cast into a lake of fire and that hell and death will be locked away inside it. Its not actually called hell.
Revelation 20 is very figurative and anthropomorphises the abstract concepts of "Death" and "Hades," even to the degree that it has them riding on horses. It's not meant to be taken literally.
I'm shocked to be in essential agreement with Stan on matters of "metaphysics." I believe that "heaven" is a metaphor for a state of being Buddhists call "enlightenment" or "nirvana."
I don't think we're in agreement. I don't believe heaven is a metaphor. I believe that "a big house" and "streets of gold" are metaphors for heaven, which is a real state of the soul. The notion of "nirvana" is very, very incompatible with heaven except in a highly colloquial sense.
Wow a person looking forward to hanging around the Summerlands, just didn't expect to see that.
As for Heaven and Hell. I do not like either. While the pain and suffering of Hell would be bad, the boredom of Heaven would bo so much worse.
Both places have serious flaws, like the streets of heaven are paved in gold. I'm dead what is a golden street gonna for me? Or Hell having a lake of fire, what if someone likes the heat?
They are the Utopia and Dystopia to the people who created the concepts at the time. Its positive and negative reinforcement all rolled into one. And do not forget to add purgatory. Its kinda like a waiting room you can go to. If you were sinful, but not that sinful, you could sit around there and do nothing for a set amount of time then go to Heaven. So you know, if you happen to fall short of perfect you can still walk on golden streets.
Both places have serious flaws, like the streets of heaven are paved in gold. I'm dead what is a golden street gonna for me? Or Hell having a lake of fire, what if someone likes the heat?
I think he is clear that it is a metaphor for something else.
I'm not very religious, so I tend to view arguments about the nature of heaven and hell as thought experiments, but I'd gotten the idea that Heaven (or Nirvana, or spiritual ascendance, after death) is a place where you are surrounded by the holy, everything has direct meaning, personal and spiritual significance or value, just like gold or pearls; and the mysteries of life are revealed to you in every detail, including its connection with the Almighty. And in this, you learn that every other soul is also connected with the Almighty, and so connected to you, thus giving rise to the metaphor of the great house; that we are all related through God.
This is opposed to the material world I guess, where random things happen randomly to random people, most of our surroundings and the events that shape our lives are meaningless out of context, and we may never know the mystery of why things are the way they are; why bad things happen to good people, why some criminals are never caught and get away with murder, why bread always lands butter-side-down, etc. Where people of vastly different backgrounds and cultures are unable to see eye-to-eye because we are competing for limited resources, and working with limited knowledge and unfamiliar terms, unlike the open and free communication of souls in Heaven's house and the unlimited presence of an infinite God.
I'm willing to stick out my neck here and hypothesize that Heaven was invented by people to fulfill a great longing in humanity for things to make sense, for clear causation. As it is, things really are quite random, evolution and all that, and the worst mystery is what might happen to you when you die. It's the search for a personal, caring, benevolent God that means for you to be fulfilled that drives the belief in the afterlife. Otherwise, life would be grim indeed for some, whose lives have been destroyed by circumstantial things, accidents, fate, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
As for Hell, I think that's just an extension of the metaphor, and the search for meaning and justice in a world where sometimes great wrongdoing goes unpunished. It's a great socialization tool, and so is Heaven. I am glad there is a Hell, because if it weren't for Hell, where would I tell random phone solicitors to go when they had clearly exhausted my patience?
Heaven and Hell are concepts used by many religions to get people to act certain ways. If it weren't for theses concepts, many people would feel that they could get away with anything on Earth as long as nobody actually catches them. They represent where you will end up after you die and your life as a whole is judged by a higher power.
Heaven is a reward for those who led their lives in the proper manner and is depicted as being a paradise so that people will want to end up there - thus they'll live their live accordingly. Meanwhile, Hell is a punishment for those that didn't live their lives in the proper manner and is depicted as being the worst thing humanly imaginable so that people won't want to end up there - hopefully this will discourage people from living their lives improperly.
In general, most people want to believe that good people will be rewarded and evil people will be punished. However, things don't always work out that way on Earth. So the concepts of Heaven and Hell are used to convince people that everything will work out properly in the end.
I don't think we're in agreement. I don't believe heaven is a metaphor. I believe that "a big house" and "streets of gold" are metaphors for heaven, which is a real state of the soul. The notion of "nirvana" is very, very incompatible with heaven except in a highly colloquial sense.
I think I see what he is getting at, though. He's saying that nirvana - a spiritual state of total personal completeness and harmony, of perfect peace and unity with the spirit of reality - is comparable to Heaven. It's arguable that the Buddhist concept is really that similar, though (even though I'd say it is, from what I can tell).
I agree with Stan. "Heaven" is a spiritual state of being in harmonius relation with God, transcending existential limitations and being both individually "perfected" and and in unity with everyone and everything else "in" Heaven.
"Hell" is like a state of spiritual death and chaos.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Yeah... call me a psychopannychist, but I've never gotten the doctrine of Particular Judgment and General Judgment. Why does God need to judge everybody twice?
Though that would only be part of the reason that people believe in an afterlife. It's obvious that it's easier to get people to kill themselves, serve you or commit life-threatening acts if you promise them a golden future after their death.
As for Heaven and Hell. I do not like either. While the pain and suffering of Hell would be bad, the boredom of Heaven would bo so much worse.
Somehow I doubt that. Besides, the literal Hell is painful and boring. It's not like the demons mix up the punishments or anything; you're condemned to having one thing done to you for eternity. The fun and excitement of a white-hot metal spike being hammered into your posterior wears off after a while.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Eternity is eternity and it doesn't really matter where it's spent. Even the most pleasurable activities get boring if repeated forever. What's the point of playing golf anymore when you've mastered it to the point that you get a hole in one every time after playing for centuries.
As much as I hate it when people quote lyrics these fit so well
"Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens."
Talking Heads - Heaven
Yeah... call me a psychopannychist, but I've never gotten the doctrine of Particular Judgment and General Judgment. Why does God need to judge everybody twice?
Two answers.
Answer 1) The second judgment is the judgment of everyone, living and dead, but for the already-dead, it's a mere reiteration rather than a second trial.
Answer 2) Why does God need to do anything? Cuz that's how God do. We trust that, in some way, him revealing his two-fold judgment plan (and subsequently carrying it out) expresses ultimate benevolence and a maximally perfect plan for the people that have died, the people living now, and the people who will live during Christ's return.
Eternity is eternity and it doesn't really matter where it's spent. Even the most pleasurable activities get boring if repeated forever. What's the point of playing golf anymore when you've mastered it to the point that you get a hole in one every time after playing for centuries.
Boredom, a very carnal weakness, cannot qualify anything in the perfect state of heaven.
Sometimes, mostly due to popular culture, it's easy to think that heaven is a place where you do all the fun stuff you did on Earth except for eternity, and that hell is a cave where demons poke you with tridents. But that's simply not what heaven and hell are according to Christian doctrine. It's much less goofy and much more mysterious than that.
Oh come on, you must think that God is stupid or something. He's more powerful than humans can concieve... So Heaven can't be boring. God isn't God for nothing, you know. Nothing can prepare us for the goodness of Heaven. If Heaven could get boring, then it wouldn't be Heaven now, would it? Come on, give God some credit. You think He has limitations? God invented limitations. He invented reality as we know it.
And one thing I don't understand... why do some people like to believe that death is the end? Why not believe that life has meaning? Why not believe in a glorious Heaven instead of and end to existance? That's depressing! Many athiests go insane when they're about to die. Notice how it feels better to believe in something rather than nothing? If I didn't believe in God or Heaven, I'd be one messed up kid with my obsessive compulsions. Athiests do not see God because they've never looked for Him. Millions of people all over the world believe in God. Why wouldn't you want to? I it stubborness? Spite? Uncertainty?
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Oh come on, you must think that God is stupid or something. He's more powerful than humans can concieve... So Heaven can't be boring. God isn't God for nothing, you know. Nothing can prepare us for the goodness of Heaven. If Heaven could get boring, then it wouldn't be Heaven now, would it? Come on, give God some credit. You think He has limitations? God invented limitations. He invented reality as we know it.
I think extremestan has something to tell you about the relationship between God and logic. In brief: logic > God (not quite accurate, but this is "in brief.")
Quote from Simurdiak »
And one thing I don't understand... why do some people like to believe that death is the end? Why not believe that life has meaning?
Disbelieving Heaven does not mean one doesn't believe that life has meaning. I, for one, find it quite exhilarating to think that this is the only life I've got, that the things I do here and now are important here and now, that I'm not just living through some eyeblink before an eternity of torment or bliss.
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Why not believe in a glorious Heaven instead of and end to existance?
Why not believe that I'm the king of Londinium and wear a shiny hat? Because, to the best of my knowledge, it's not the truth (except for the shiny hat thing).
Quote from Simurdiak »
That's depressing! Many athiests go insane when they're about to die.
Many atheists also do not. And many Christians do. It's something that happens to the elderly of all paths, and its roots are physiological, not spiritual. Instead of blaming it on atheism, you might pick up some sensitivity, and possibly even your checkbook, and try to do something about it.
Quote from Simurdiak »
Notice how it feels better to believe in something rather than nothing?
All right, kid, here's my creed:
I believe in one Humanity, the Thinkers, the Shapers, the creators of art and language, the discoverers of things seen and unseen. I believe in one species, Homo sapiens, the only sapient animal (until we find another), long ago begotten from the apes, fittest from fittest, begotten not made, of one Being with all the physical universe, in which all things came about.
You're right, I feel better already.
Quote from Simurdiak »
If I didn't believe in God or Heaven, I'd be one messed up kid with my obsessive compulsions.
Why? What does Heaven have to do with your life here and now? You're the one who overcame this messed-uppedness. No matter that it was through your belief in God; you chose not to be the wretched creature you saw that you might become. To a humanist, that sort of victory, that triumph of the human will, is more encouraging than any almighty being in an old book.
Quote from Simurdiak »
Athiests do not see God because they've never looked for Him.
Oh, we've looked, all right. We've looked with telescopes, we've looked with microscopes, we've looked with every kind of 'scope you can imagine. We've looked indirectly, through experimentation and pure reason. And what do we see? A universe that doesn't even need a God, much less have one. And we think that universe wondrous in its lack of need.
Quote from Simurdiak »
Millions of people all over the world believe in God. Why wouldn't you want to? I it stubborness? Spite? Uncertainty?
An unwillingness to trot along with the herd for no better reason than it's the herd? A desire for truth? Every ounce of reason in my body? Or perhaps simply a distaste for the condescension that those who erroneously believe they're going to a better place than their neighbors after death often have hovering around them like a phantom raven?
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I think extremestan has something to tell you about the relationship between God and logic. In brief: logic > God (not quite accurate, but this is "in brief.")
While that is something I'm fond of saying, one must still remember that this just means God has no limitations except those that he would need to overcome to solve meaningless atheist "stumpers" like square-circles and too-heavy rocks and too-hot burritos and such. I would supposed that curing the carnal feeling of boredom is quite within his power, but I think you suppose this as well, and were just making sure we didn't slip on a slope (which you are right to do).
The problem with Heaven is our need to think of it in 4 dimensions, we think of it as a place. Somewhere you go, and stay and do. If it were a state of being it would be alot better. Cause for me sitting on a cloud staring at an omnipotent being sitting on a giant chair radiating love would get real old, real fast. A state of being would be alot different, cause then we wouldn't loose anything and I can indulge my insatiable thirst for knowledge forever!! After all there is always more to know and less to forget.
I find the concept of hell completely useless. Eternal torment is such a human idea, luckily humans did not design the universe. So negative reinforcement just doesn't work.
I honestly believe that when you die your mind shots off a few last thoughts letting you know that you're dying. What happens after that is anyones guess.
What happens when you die?
where do all of your thoughts go, do they die?
Does your mind wander this eart we walk on?
help me out..
There's no reason to assume that thought continues when your body ceases to function. People tend to think of the mind as something disconnected form the body when really they're linked and interdependent. There's no reason to think that thought would continue when the body decays.
Not to sound too flippant about this, but since no one has died and come back to tell the tale you'll have to wait and find out.
As for things like near death experiences, there's no reason to think that these are anything other then what happens as your body shuts down. People going through high-g tests experience the same thing. The vision narrows down to a tunnel of light and they believe they're talking to people that aren't really there.
I find the concept of hell completely useless. Eternal torment is such a human idea, luckily humans did not design the universe. So negative reinforcement just doesn't work.
Are gods really any better?
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I don't necessarily believe that they exist. I think they are human ways to categorize or theorize the afterlife.
The thing is, no one knows what happens when we die. Heaven is a way to make people less scared about dying, and is something to look forward to rather than dread. Hell is a way to keep people on their toes—a deterrent, of sorts. If people are afraid of what will happen to them after they die, they will do what they can to ensure that they go to "heaven."
I think extremestan has something to tell you about the relationship between God and logic. In brief: logic > God (not quite accurate, but this is "in brief.")
Really? What isn't logical about God? If God doesn’t exist, how did the universe begin? If you believe the Big Bang Theory, you'll know that in order for it to occur, countless billions of matter particles would have to collide just right to set it off. How could that have happened without God?
If you don't believe the Big Bang Theory, tell me another one that is logical. I can show you how God could have caused it.
Another thing, where did the Earth begin? How does it support life? If the Earth was any closer or farther away from the sun, it couldn't support life. Scientists have proven this. Add the probability of this with the probability of the sun being the right size, plus the fact that there is probably life out there somewhere else in the galaxy as well, and you get either two answers... God, or a miraculously large amount of luck. Oh, yeah, and only God can perform miracles.
Also, where did human spirituality come from? Humans have a need for spirituality. The Ancient Greeks had their gods, the Aztecs had theirs, the Chinese had theirs, and many others had gods, too. People need spirituality. The vast majority of people in this world have some kind of religious beliefs. So why do people love religion so much?
God is the only logical explanation.
Disbelieving Heaven does not mean one doesn't believe that life has meaning. I, for one, find it quite exhilarating to think that this is the only life I've got, that the things I do here and now are important here and now, that I'm not just living through some eyeblink before an eternity of torment or bliss.
Life is without meaning if there is no God or Heaven. Why should I care about the Earth, the human race, or morality if I'm just heading strait to oblivion anyway?
Things you do here are important, even with Heaven. Especially with Heaven. I'd rather get rewarded for leading a good life instead of getting dumped into the ground and loosing my existence, no matter what life I've lived. Without Heaven, it wouldn't matter if I'd had a happy life. I'd be gone for good. Nothing I did here on Earth would matter to me anymore. Everything I am, everything I did, would all be gone. When your grandparents die, when your parents die, wouldn’t you like to believe that you’ll see them again? That they aren’t gone forever? It is more comforting to know that your loved ones are in Heaven, not in a hole in the ground. The body is only the shell of the true self, the soul.
Why not believe that I'm the king of Londinium and wear a shiny hat? Because, to the best of my knowledge, it's not the truth (except for the shiny hat thing).
To the best of my knowledge, there is a Heaven and there is a God. If it wasn't, why would I believe it? A hat isn't a good metaphor for God, and neither is Londinium. Unless, of course, people worship this hat and there is a holy book written about it that has been passed down through the generations for almost two millenniums. Unless, of course, this hat has changed people's lives. Unless, of course, this hat has influenced human culture all over the world.
Many atheists also do not. And many Christians do. It's something that happens to the elderly of all paths, and its roots are physiological, not spiritual. Instead of blaming it on atheism, you might pick up some sensitivity, and possibly even your checkbook, and try to do something about it.
When atheists go insane, it's often because they realize that their existence is ending, and everything that they've ever accomplished in life will not matter to them once they are dead. And sure, many atheists do go insane for psychological reasons, and so do many Christians. Many Christians fear death, too, but they know that their life will matter to them even after physical death. It is not as terrible a thing as it is for an Atheist.
All right, kid, here's my creed:
I believe in one Humanity, the Thinkers, the Shapers, the creators of art and language, the discoverers of things seen and unseen. I believe in one species, Homo sapiens, the only sapient animal (until we find another), long ago begotten from the apes, fittest from fittest, begotten not made, of one Being with all the physical universe, in which all things came about.
You're right, I feel better already.
If your life becomes a horrible, terrible, chaotic life, who will you turn to? Other humans? They can't help. Humans are not gods. We have limited understanding. Instead of giving up and committing suicide, if you truly believe in God, you should probably trust Him instead of chaos.
Oh, and if humans did evolve from apes, everything would have to follow a specific process to get from Point A to Point B. That isn't chance. If you believe in fate, God should make sense. If you believe in extreme luck such as that, consider this-
What are the chances of you being alive? Forgive me for making this reference, my intentions are not bad - but in order for you to be alive, you'd have to outrace a million other sperm to get to the egg. So would your parents, and your grandparents, your great grandparents (Who would all have to happen to meet and marry each other, by the way), and all of your ancestors since the beginning when life began because of... because of what?
If luck was a part of this, it is mathematically impossible... like trying to roll a dice eighty-five thousand times and getting a continuing pattern of 1,5,4 that goes on uninterrupted.
And the only way we could be One in Being with the universe is through God, through which all things were made and came about. Think about it, man!
Why? What does Heaven have to do with your life here and now? You're the one who overcame this messed-uppedness. No matter that it was through your belief in God; you chose not to be the wretched creature you saw that you might become. To a humanist, that sort of victory, that triumph of the human will, is more encouraging than any almighty being in an old book.
I've prayed, and I've been doing better. Call it coincidence, but I don't believe that. I have other reasons too, but in order to explain them I'd have to get into the science behind the compulsions themselves, which would take a long time. But I believe that God is encouraging me, and that belief comforts me. God is my motivation. Through God, I have found the strength to handle it on my own. God didn't do it for me. And get this - even if God dosen't exist, I've still found in Him the strength and the will to fight my obsessive compulsions...So he must exist. Nothing that is nonexistent could ever do that for me.
Oh, we've looked, all right. We've looked with telescopes, we've looked with microscopes, we've looked with every kind of 'scope you can imagine. We've looked indirectly, through experimentation and pure reason. And what do we see? A universe that doesn't even need a God, much less have one. And we think that universe wondrous in its lack of need.
You say you've looked for God but can't see Him, and yet you can't see what I meant. If you look for God in all the good things in life... the love of your parents, in the stranger who helps you when your car breaks down, in the faith of His believers, the beauty of nature, the old lady who comforts you when a loved one dies, the simple pleasures every day that you take for granted. The ability to walk while others are lame, the ability to see when others are blind, the house you own when others have only the shirt on their back. Look, and you will see His blessings. Through these blessings, you'll see God. And our universe has no needs? What of the wars on earth and the poor people in poverty. They need God, and so does everyone else. It is arrogant to think that we lack need.
An unwillingness to trot along with the herd for no better reason than it's the herd? A desire for truth? Every ounce of reason in my body? Or perhaps simply a distaste for the condescension that those who erroneously believe they're going to a better place than their neighbors after death often have hovering around them like a phantom raven?
Oh, I didn't mean to sound like I'm pressuring anybody. I was just wondering why.
I agree with that last bit. Some people believe that you go to hell for not believing in God. But more still believe that God makes life happier, and that you go to Heaven for being a good person, no matter what your beliefs are. God loves even those who do not believe in Him, but believing does help you be a better person. I also believe that some Christians are going to hell for terrible deeds of which they never repented. God never said you had to believe in Him. He is not a dictator.
Thanks for your patience.
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"This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell.'" (CCC 1033) "The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs." (CCC 1035) This eternal longing in the absence of communion with God is very sad and painful, and the Bible attempts to describe it using metaphors like a lake of fire and an ever-burning garbage pit.
Where exactly these places are, and how a soul gets there after the brain that it emerged from shuts down and becomes dust, has never to my knowledge been adequately explained - though Dante gives it a good show, he's really writing more in stan's vein (despite what many of his readers believed) - so perhaps the metaphorical interpretation has a point.
As for me, I think them, and all afterlives, to be a means for sidestepping the quite difficult-to-fully-grasp idea that one will at some point lose consciousness permanently. This state of oblivion is, almost by definition, incomprehensible and unimaginable, so people decided that that consciousness had to go somewhere when it obviously wasn't around here anymore, and continue to be conscious eternally. Before you condemn our forebears as superstitious buffoons who'd rather make up a platitude than face truth, though, remember that there wasn't much or any evidence that this wasn't the case. Jesus wasn't a neurologist armed with modern theories and equipment, but he did the best he could; he presented a theory of life, death, and consciousness that made sense to him, and to those listening to him, too. He also tied one's fate to one's morality, which was a nice touch that produced who-knows-how-much practical benefit for humans still on this mortal coil.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Anyways...according to Christian texts hell doesn't even exist yet. When you die you're dead and only after Armageddon do you go to heaven or hell. You are judged by you deeds in the book of life and if you're found wanting then your name is erased. The Bible actually says that you'll be cast into a lake of fire and that hell and death will be locked away inside it. Its not actually called hell.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particular_judgment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Judgment
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/judga1.htm
Revelation 20 is very figurative and anthropomorphises the abstract concepts of "Death" and "Hades," even to the degree that it has them riding on horses. It's not meant to be taken literally.
I don't think we're in agreement. I don't believe heaven is a metaphor. I believe that "a big house" and "streets of gold" are metaphors for heaven, which is a real state of the soul. The notion of "nirvana" is very, very incompatible with heaven except in a highly colloquial sense.
As for Heaven and Hell. I do not like either. While the pain and suffering of Hell would be bad, the boredom of Heaven would bo so much worse.
Both places have serious flaws, like the streets of heaven are paved in gold. I'm dead what is a golden street gonna for me? Or Hell having a lake of fire, what if someone likes the heat?
They are the Utopia and Dystopia to the people who created the concepts at the time. Its positive and negative reinforcement all rolled into one. And do not forget to add purgatory. Its kinda like a waiting room you can go to. If you were sinful, but not that sinful, you could sit around there and do nothing for a set amount of time then go to Heaven. So you know, if you happen to fall short of perfect you can still walk on golden streets.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
I'm not very religious, so I tend to view arguments about the nature of heaven and hell as thought experiments, but I'd gotten the idea that Heaven (or Nirvana, or spiritual ascendance, after death) is a place where you are surrounded by the holy, everything has direct meaning, personal and spiritual significance or value, just like gold or pearls; and the mysteries of life are revealed to you in every detail, including its connection with the Almighty. And in this, you learn that every other soul is also connected with the Almighty, and so connected to you, thus giving rise to the metaphor of the great house; that we are all related through God.
This is opposed to the material world I guess, where random things happen randomly to random people, most of our surroundings and the events that shape our lives are meaningless out of context, and we may never know the mystery of why things are the way they are; why bad things happen to good people, why some criminals are never caught and get away with murder, why bread always lands butter-side-down, etc. Where people of vastly different backgrounds and cultures are unable to see eye-to-eye because we are competing for limited resources, and working with limited knowledge and unfamiliar terms, unlike the open and free communication of souls in Heaven's house and the unlimited presence of an infinite God.
I'm willing to stick out my neck here and hypothesize that Heaven was invented by people to fulfill a great longing in humanity for things to make sense, for clear causation. As it is, things really are quite random, evolution and all that, and the worst mystery is what might happen to you when you die. It's the search for a personal, caring, benevolent God that means for you to be fulfilled that drives the belief in the afterlife. Otherwise, life would be grim indeed for some, whose lives have been destroyed by circumstantial things, accidents, fate, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
As for Hell, I think that's just an extension of the metaphor, and the search for meaning and justice in a world where sometimes great wrongdoing goes unpunished. It's a great socialization tool, and so is Heaven. I am glad there is a Hell, because if it weren't for Hell, where would I tell random phone solicitors to go when they had clearly exhausted my patience?
Heaven is a reward for those who led their lives in the proper manner and is depicted as being a paradise so that people will want to end up there - thus they'll live their live accordingly. Meanwhile, Hell is a punishment for those that didn't live their lives in the proper manner and is depicted as being the worst thing humanly imaginable so that people won't want to end up there - hopefully this will discourage people from living their lives improperly.
In general, most people want to believe that good people will be rewarded and evil people will be punished. However, things don't always work out that way on Earth. So the concepts of Heaven and Hell are used to convince people that everything will work out properly in the end.
I think I see what he is getting at, though. He's saying that nirvana - a spiritual state of total personal completeness and harmony, of perfect peace and unity with the spirit of reality - is comparable to Heaven. It's arguable that the Buddhist concept is really that similar, though (even though I'd say it is, from what I can tell).
I agree with Stan. "Heaven" is a spiritual state of being in harmonius relation with God, transcending existential limitations and being both individually "perfected" and and in unity with everyone and everything else "in" Heaven.
"Hell" is like a state of spiritual death and chaos.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Yeah... call me a psychopannychist, but I've never gotten the doctrine of Particular Judgment and General Judgment. Why does God need to judge everybody twice?
Well, if you want to be cynical about it...
Somehow I doubt that. Besides, the literal Hell is painful and boring. It's not like the demons mix up the punishments or anything; you're condemned to having one thing done to you for eternity. The fun and excitement of a white-hot metal spike being hammered into your posterior wears off after a while.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
As much as I hate it when people quote lyrics these fit so well
"Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens."
Talking Heads - Heaven
[join the princes of pauper]
+1
Two answers.
Answer 1) The second judgment is the judgment of everyone, living and dead, but for the already-dead, it's a mere reiteration rather than a second trial.
Answer 2) Why does God need to do anything? Cuz that's how God do. We trust that, in some way, him revealing his two-fold judgment plan (and subsequently carrying it out) expresses ultimate benevolence and a maximally perfect plan for the people that have died, the people living now, and the people who will live during Christ's return.
Boredom, a very carnal weakness, cannot qualify anything in the perfect state of heaven.
Sometimes, mostly due to popular culture, it's easy to think that heaven is a place where you do all the fun stuff you did on Earth except for eternity, and that hell is a cave where demons poke you with tridents. But that's simply not what heaven and hell are according to Christian doctrine. It's much less goofy and much more mysterious than that.
And one thing I don't understand... why do some people like to believe that death is the end? Why not believe that life has meaning? Why not believe in a glorious Heaven instead of and end to existance? That's depressing! Many athiests go insane when they're about to die. Notice how it feels better to believe in something rather than nothing? If I didn't believe in God or Heaven, I'd be one messed up kid with my obsessive compulsions. Athiests do not see God because they've never looked for Him. Millions of people all over the world believe in God. Why wouldn't you want to? I it stubborness? Spite? Uncertainty?
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Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you.
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Hell would be eternally experiencing what you despied the most.
I think extremestan has something to tell you about the relationship between God and logic. In brief: logic > God (not quite accurate, but this is "in brief.")
Disbelieving Heaven does not mean one doesn't believe that life has meaning. I, for one, find it quite exhilarating to think that this is the only life I've got, that the things I do here and now are important here and now, that I'm not just living through some eyeblink before an eternity of torment or bliss.
Why not believe that I'm the king of Londinium and wear a shiny hat? Because, to the best of my knowledge, it's not the truth (except for the shiny hat thing).
Many atheists also do not. And many Christians do. It's something that happens to the elderly of all paths, and its roots are physiological, not spiritual. Instead of blaming it on atheism, you might pick up some sensitivity, and possibly even your checkbook, and try to do something about it.
All right, kid, here's my creed:
I believe in one Humanity, the Thinkers, the Shapers, the creators of art and language, the discoverers of things seen and unseen. I believe in one species, Homo sapiens, the only sapient animal (until we find another), long ago begotten from the apes, fittest from fittest, begotten not made, of one Being with all the physical universe, in which all things came about.
You're right, I feel better already.
Why? What does Heaven have to do with your life here and now? You're the one who overcame this messed-uppedness. No matter that it was through your belief in God; you chose not to be the wretched creature you saw that you might become. To a humanist, that sort of victory, that triumph of the human will, is more encouraging than any almighty being in an old book.
Oh, we've looked, all right. We've looked with telescopes, we've looked with microscopes, we've looked with every kind of 'scope you can imagine. We've looked indirectly, through experimentation and pure reason. And what do we see? A universe that doesn't even need a God, much less have one. And we think that universe wondrous in its lack of need.
An unwillingness to trot along with the herd for no better reason than it's the herd? A desire for truth? Every ounce of reason in my body? Or perhaps simply a distaste for the condescension that those who erroneously believe they're going to a better place than their neighbors after death often have hovering around them like a phantom raven?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
So you're saying that your God believes in double jeopardy? *lol* Bah...well we'll all find out who's right in the end.
No, a soul is not tried twice. The general judgment is a mere reiteration of the declaration of judgment for those who were dead.
While that is something I'm fond of saying, one must still remember that this just means God has no limitations except those that he would need to overcome to solve meaningless atheist "stumpers" like square-circles and too-heavy rocks and too-hot burritos and such. I would supposed that curing the carnal feeling of boredom is quite within his power, but I think you suppose this as well, and were just making sure we didn't slip on a slope (which you are right to do).
I find the concept of hell completely useless. Eternal torment is such a human idea, luckily humans did not design the universe. So negative reinforcement just doesn't work.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
What happens when you die?
where do all of your thoughts go, do they die?
Does your mind wander this eart we walk on?
help me out..
thanks Spiral
Magic Coffee House Visit us sometime..
EXTENDO!?
2nd Adopted Child of Sneakyhomunculus
There's no reason to assume that thought continues when your body ceases to function. People tend to think of the mind as something disconnected form the body when really they're linked and interdependent. There's no reason to think that thought would continue when the body decays.
Not to sound too flippant about this, but since no one has died and come back to tell the tale you'll have to wait and find out.
As for things like near death experiences, there's no reason to think that these are anything other then what happens as your body shuts down. People going through high-g tests experience the same thing. The vision narrows down to a tunnel of light and they believe they're talking to people that aren't really there.
[join the princes of pauper]
+1
Are gods really any better?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
The thing is, no one knows what happens when we die. Heaven is a way to make people less scared about dying, and is something to look forward to rather than dread. Hell is a way to keep people on their toes—a deterrent, of sorts. If people are afraid of what will happen to them after they die, they will do what they can to ensure that they go to "heaven."
Co-Host, In Contention Podcast / Yo! MTG Taps! Podcast
In Contention
Yo! MTG Taps!
Twitter.com/AffinityForBlue
Really? What isn't logical about God? If God doesn’t exist, how did the universe begin? If you believe the Big Bang Theory, you'll know that in order for it to occur, countless billions of matter particles would have to collide just right to set it off. How could that have happened without God?
If you don't believe the Big Bang Theory, tell me another one that is logical. I can show you how God could have caused it.
Another thing, where did the Earth begin? How does it support life? If the Earth was any closer or farther away from the sun, it couldn't support life. Scientists have proven this. Add the probability of this with the probability of the sun being the right size, plus the fact that there is probably life out there somewhere else in the galaxy as well, and you get either two answers... God, or a miraculously large amount of luck. Oh, yeah, and only God can perform miracles.
Also, where did human spirituality come from? Humans have a need for spirituality. The Ancient Greeks had their gods, the Aztecs had theirs, the Chinese had theirs, and many others had gods, too. People need spirituality. The vast majority of people in this world have some kind of religious beliefs. So why do people love religion so much?
God is the only logical explanation.
Life is without meaning if there is no God or Heaven. Why should I care about the Earth, the human race, or morality if I'm just heading strait to oblivion anyway?
Things you do here are important, even with Heaven. Especially with Heaven. I'd rather get rewarded for leading a good life instead of getting dumped into the ground and loosing my existence, no matter what life I've lived. Without Heaven, it wouldn't matter if I'd had a happy life. I'd be gone for good. Nothing I did here on Earth would matter to me anymore. Everything I am, everything I did, would all be gone. When your grandparents die, when your parents die, wouldn’t you like to believe that you’ll see them again? That they aren’t gone forever? It is more comforting to know that your loved ones are in Heaven, not in a hole in the ground. The body is only the shell of the true self, the soul.
To the best of my knowledge, there is a Heaven and there is a God. If it wasn't, why would I believe it? A hat isn't a good metaphor for God, and neither is Londinium. Unless, of course, people worship this hat and there is a holy book written about it that has been passed down through the generations for almost two millenniums. Unless, of course, this hat has changed people's lives. Unless, of course, this hat has influenced human culture all over the world.
When atheists go insane, it's often because they realize that their existence is ending, and everything that they've ever accomplished in life will not matter to them once they are dead. And sure, many atheists do go insane for psychological reasons, and so do many Christians. Many Christians fear death, too, but they know that their life will matter to them even after physical death. It is not as terrible a thing as it is for an Atheist.
If your life becomes a horrible, terrible, chaotic life, who will you turn to? Other humans? They can't help. Humans are not gods. We have limited understanding. Instead of giving up and committing suicide, if you truly believe in God, you should probably trust Him instead of chaos.
Oh, and if humans did evolve from apes, everything would have to follow a specific process to get from Point A to Point B. That isn't chance. If you believe in fate, God should make sense. If you believe in extreme luck such as that, consider this-
What are the chances of you being alive? Forgive me for making this reference, my intentions are not bad - but in order for you to be alive, you'd have to outrace a million other sperm to get to the egg. So would your parents, and your grandparents, your great grandparents (Who would all have to happen to meet and marry each other, by the way), and all of your ancestors since the beginning when life began because of... because of what?
If luck was a part of this, it is mathematically impossible... like trying to roll a dice eighty-five thousand times and getting a continuing pattern of 1,5,4 that goes on uninterrupted.
And the only way we could be One in Being with the universe is through God, through which all things were made and came about. Think about it, man!
I've prayed, and I've been doing better. Call it coincidence, but I don't believe that. I have other reasons too, but in order to explain them I'd have to get into the science behind the compulsions themselves, which would take a long time. But I believe that God is encouraging me, and that belief comforts me. God is my motivation. Through God, I have found the strength to handle it on my own. God didn't do it for me. And get this - even if God dosen't exist, I've still found in Him the strength and the will to fight my obsessive compulsions...So he must exist. Nothing that is nonexistent could ever do that for me.
You say you've looked for God but can't see Him, and yet you can't see what I meant. If you look for God in all the good things in life... the love of your parents, in the stranger who helps you when your car breaks down, in the faith of His believers, the beauty of nature, the old lady who comforts you when a loved one dies, the simple pleasures every day that you take for granted. The ability to walk while others are lame, the ability to see when others are blind, the house you own when others have only the shirt on their back. Look, and you will see His blessings. Through these blessings, you'll see God. And our universe has no needs? What of the wars on earth and the poor people in poverty. They need God, and so does everyone else. It is arrogant to think that we lack need.
Oh, I didn't mean to sound like I'm pressuring anybody. I was just wondering why.
I agree with that last bit. Some people believe that you go to hell for not believing in God. But more still believe that God makes life happier, and that you go to Heaven for being a good person, no matter what your beliefs are. God loves even those who do not believe in Him, but believing does help you be a better person. I also believe that some Christians are going to hell for terrible deeds of which they never repented. God never said you had to believe in Him. He is not a dictator.
Thanks for your patience.
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Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you.
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