If you think this thread is in bad taste, you're right. This is because abortion is not a tasteful subject. That said, however, if you want to talk about the morality or ethics of abortion and conception, here is not the place to do it. Please direct such discussions here, where things are rumbling along nicely.
Anyhow, the point of this thread is this:
Quote from EnemyWithin »
Well, if I was going to be born into a family of strife, poverty, and abuse, I would rather end it in the early stages, and I think most people would want the same.
To be, or not to be. That is very much the question, it would seem. Is life, for all of its pain and iniquity, better than preemptive oblivion? Or is the world simply an ordeal from which we must be saved by the cold mercy of the surgeon's knife?
When framing your answer, please consider it within the framework of your life as it stands. I understand that this is a very traumatic issue for many people, and I mean no disrespect. It is because of this that the input of people here who have suffered genuine hardships and misfortunes in their lives is so necessary for this thread.
I would ask, also, that we keep this discussion civil. I have no compunctions whatsoever about closing this thread if things get out of hand. As it is, however, this is a serious and important question that deserves an answer.
I await your input.
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Then loom'd his streaming majesty From out that wine-dark fog, And spake he unto all our crew: "Go forth, and read my blog."
Can one experience non-existence? If not, how can one compare between existence and non-existence?
I want to be here but that is mostly because I am here.
Oh, I agree with you, obviously. This is more for the benefit of the people who have been saying that a child would be better off not existing or something.
And Annorax, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope things get better for you.
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Then loom'd his streaming majesty From out that wine-dark fog, And spake he unto all our crew: "Go forth, and read my blog."
Oh, I agree with you, obviously. This is more for the benefit of the people who have been saying that a child would be better off not existing or something.
They will probably avoid this thread, anyway.
Quote from Annorax »
I would prefer to have not existed. The loneliness of my life shows no end, no reprieve.
Are you serious or are you just trying to get a rise out of us?
Well if so, I understand.
The most important thing to know is that you aren't alone. I can't quite remember how it felt to be there, but trust me, I was there. I had that same thought in my head. Except it just kept repeating like a broken record. Over and over and over and over and over and over for nearly a decade. With determination, pure luck and the ears of a few wonderful, compassionate individuals I managed to face up to a kind of torture that I cannot even pretend to recall today. The kind of despair that gives me shivers just to contemplate.
So, if you need someone to listen - let me be the first to volunteer. It is a debt that I would be quite happy to repay.
Are you serious or are you just trying to get a rise out of us?
I've contributed nothing to this world except strife, pain, and a few PSDs.
Oh, and I'm 24, unemployable, and living in my parents' basement off a meager poker income. (Click my sig links to help with this.) I haven't even had a date in close to three years now, and I've pretty much given up all hope of finding anything resembling a normal life.
So if you think I'm not serious... think again.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
I've contributed nothing to this world except strife, pain, and a few PSDs.
Oh, and I'm 24, unemployable, and living in my parents' basement off a meager poker income. (Click my sig links to help with this.) I haven't even had a date in close to three years now, and I've pretty much given up all hope of finding anything resembling a normal life.
So if you think I'm not serious... think again.
I am only 19...but I have many of those problems. Dating/marraige for me will end up like it is for you for the last few years. A lot of stuff like that made me suicidal a few months ago.
Since "not commiting suicide" is reversable...I could always keep on going...run up college debt, and may still end up getting a job and being happy...even if it is not likely. Its all up from the bottom. Otherwise...
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Click here to visit my userpage at Wikipedia, where I am currently an administrator.:cool2:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
I personally enjoy my life. My faith brings me great joy and desire to live life. I have a wonderful girlfriend of 2.4 years and great friends who love each other. I have a bunch of crap in my life too, being the "fat kid" growing up, not having a girl till I was 18, my dad having a major stroke and being on severe disability for 6 years now. My life isnt perfect or easy, but I love the joy I get from it and would never give that up for a chance to never be at all.
The problem is you can never know what is going to happen in a person's life that would make it "worth" living. Those 8 people didn't expect to win $360 million. There are people born rich to lose everything they own.
The more risk the more you have to gain. Life is the biggest risk anyone has.
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first turn
Nick: I lay a swamp, tap, dark ritual...
Me: If you cast a hypnotic specter I'll punch you in the face
Nick:...ahh I take 3 points of mana burn
The reason I play black according to CrovaxtheCursed:
The problem is you can never know what is going to happen in a person's life that would make it "worth" living.
Thank you.
It is for this reason that the popular sentimentalism surrounding so-called "socio-economic abortions" is hideous, and the practice itself categorically wrong. Feel free to discuss this issue here, of course; I don't want to be responsible for breaking my own rules.
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Then loom'd his streaming majesty From out that wine-dark fog, And spake he unto all our crew: "Go forth, and read my blog."
The poll was made in response to the rhetoric of a single poster whom I would like to prove wrong. I do not believe that the pro-choice movement as a whole would subscribe to such a ridiculous argument. The problem I see is that, once the issue filters down to the peanut gallery (here), that's really all the argument becomes. We don't care about female self-determination because we take it as a given. We can't practically argue about embryonic status because none of us are scientists, and it wouldn't help us even if we were because scientists can't produce satisfactory answers to this question either. All we can argue about, and resultantly all we do seem to argue about, is the issue of somehow "saving" children from a bad life by aborting them.
I find such a suggestion monstrous, obviously, and I feel that most people would agree.
BTW, Furor, I think you should have issued a warning that it is a public poll. This is a serious subject, and some may have wished to remain anonymous.
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By kingcobweb and Goblinboy.
Official Elitist of [thread=40859][RBS][/thread]
Quote from kingcobweb »
I don't understand the purpose of gimmick accounts.
I agree with Sib. This is the most loaded topic I've ever seen. I personally don't wish to have been aborted, mainly because I am the child of parents who planned a family, but you can never truly tell what the future holds for a child. If, however, you are a poor, unwed, teenage mother-to-be, it would be a burden off of your shoulders to abort your baby. Also, abortions are good if you know that your baby is going to have some debilitating disorder. Here's a story for you: my cousin's first pregnancy resulted in her baby dying from a brain disorder, practically after birth. She got pregnant again, and she learned that her baby would have the same disorder if it lived to birth. So rather than going through the same suffering again, she had an abortion. She is now the mother of an adopted child. Now ask yourself, would you rather have your child raised in a bad environment and sacrifice its future, or would you not want it to suffer?
Most fetuses are not reasonable candidates for abortion...only a small percent. Most healthy(enough) fetuses will grow into people that by and large would want to live...so the obvious predictable result of this poll, especially since it is not anonymous, is to be in favor of NO.
Technically...this is also a temporal reversion question. Going from ~22 week fetus to aborted fetus means that you never attain conscious...hence you never existed. Though late term abortions are another matter. You wont "regrett" not existing. If any of us were aborted...we wouldn't either, even the happiest man alive.
What is really being asked is: Do you want to die now?
Click here to visit my userpage at Wikipedia, where I am currently an administrator.:cool2:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Although im sure I'll either get ignored or just railed for my opinion on this, I'll stick with it. I just wanna make it clear that my stances on this aren't just for shock value, or some juvenille BS like that, this is truly the way I feel.
I don't consider myself Pro-life, or Pro-choice. I consider myself "Pro-abortion". It is my belief that considering the state of the world at these times. That the real crime is bringing what was once an innocent nothing into a world that has little more to offer other then hate, war, greed, death, and just all around badness.
Certainly I understand this isn't always the case, and if your born into a super rich family with all sorts of luxories and will most likely not have much trouble in strife in your life then sure, might as well be born.
But of course I always understand that this is rarely, if ever the case.
And sure maybe its just my own manic depressive views on life that make me feel that its better to have simply never existed then to be brought into a world where everything is so gosh darn awful
But for years now, I myself truly feel that nothing that has happened on my 25 years on this planet has warrented my existence, and in fact my prolonged existence on this mortal coil has only strenghtened my feelings that my own abortion would have been much better for myself and "most" of the people around me.
I dont know, I personally think people put WAAAAAY to high a value on human life. Sure some humans can do good stuff, cure diseases, help others, make new inventions that will help the world. But lets face it, the majority of humans are either at least totally selfish and offer nothing to this world other then to take what they need/want for themselves, or are indeed actually a burden to humanity. Do we really need to hold on to EVERY human life as if were some sacred god child?
Maybe I wouldn't have these views if I were born into another time, or another life, so I do fully understand that my upbringing and life experiances plays a strong role in my opinion on this. But I guess the same thing could very well be said about most opinions anyone person might have.
I believe the correct answer is "what a loaded question".
It is a loaded question because it is in response to a specific ridiculous claim. If this were meant to be broad, it would have been broad.
Furor, do you wish Adolf Hitler had been aborted?
No.
Or if we want to get even MORE hypothetical and unanswerable, if someone were to kill your parents, would you wish he/she had been aborted?
No.
Quote from Voice of All(MTG) »
What is this poll here to prove?
If the answer is nothing...good job.
The point of this thread is to show that it is impossible to say whether or not someone's life will be "bad" enough that it would be better that they had never lived at all. Thank you for agreeing with me.
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Then loom'd his streaming majesty From out that wine-dark fog, And spake he unto all our crew: "Go forth, and read my blog."
The point of this thread is to show that it is impossible to say whether or not someone's life will be "bad" enough that it would be better that they had never lived at all. Thank you for agreeing with me.
Abortion is for use in extreme cases. You are asking if a random group of people wished they had been aborted. Most of them are therefore fairly physically/mentally normal (healthy) so do not represent the proper subset of fetuses who might be considered for abortion.
Another thing is that a lot of people that have kids should not being having them....but that does not mean that the fetuses should be aborted...maybe in hindsight...but that is not the issue, as they are NOT in the tiny subset of fetuses.
Yes, 'it is impossible to say whether or not someone's life will be "bad"' if it is a random fetus. If it is a severely deformed fetus...we can get a good 99% chance. 99% of miserable suffering, 1% change of some decent happiness. If we only acted on 100% probability...we would be nowhere. Life is important...so obviously a 3% change of severe ailments, and the suffering that follows is not enough to just kill of a fetus. Depending on the chances...and the severity...somewhere there is a range of reason, and not everyone will see one exact number for this.
So we do not agree...so do not say that I do when I clearly do not as it is just trolling.
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Click here to visit my userpage at Wikipedia, where I am currently an administrator.:cool2:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Yes, 'it is impossible to say whether or not someone's life will be "bad"' if it is a random fetus. If it is a severely deformed fetus...we can get a good 99% chance. 99% of miserable suffering, 1% change of some decent happiness. If we only acted on 100% probability...we would be nowhere. Life is important...so obviously a 3% change of severe ailments, and the suffering that follows is not enough to just kill of a fetus. Depending on the chances...and the severity...somewhere there is a range of reason, and not everyone will see one exact number for this.
Saying "somewhere there is a range" simple isn't good enough. We don't know where that range is, and we can not find it because the issue isn't as simple as weighing percentages.
When it comes to aborting a child, perhaps it would be better if "we were nowhere," as you say. Anything less than 100% probability is unacceptable. One is reminded, perhaps, of the parable of letting a thousand guilty men go free rather than punish one who is innocent.
So we do not agree...so do not say that I do when I clearly do not as it is just trolling.
I am not trying to troll you, Voice.
We both agree that using "happiness in future life" to determine whether or not a fetus should live or die is impossible without some sort of mystical power, or, as you put it, time travel. I have simply chosen to attack this problem from the opposite direction for once, and the result has been the same. If it's a stupid and pointless question to ask someone who has actually endured hardships and traumas whether they wish they had never been born, how much more so it must be to ask the same question about one who has not even endured such hardships and may never do so at all.
Perhaps a better question would be:
If I told you now that there is a "good likelihood" that you will be gored to death by a bull in twenty years, would you accept a bullet to the back of the head now - and only now - to thwart such a fate?
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Then loom'd his streaming majesty From out that wine-dark fog, And spake he unto all our crew: "Go forth, and read my blog."
If I told you now that there is a "good likelihood" that you will be gored to death by a bull in twenty years, would you accept a bullet to the back of the head now - and only now - to thwart such a fate?
If I was generally happy overall...and saw no reason that that would change in 20 years...I might choose the bull. If my life was fairly happy, the "integral" from now to 20+ years would likely surpass the bull pain.
Yet again...this is not the subset, and asking a fetus is like asking an ant...it just can't make decisions yet, so someone else (the mother) should make the best choices given what is known. The "integral" is the problem with the bull analogy. The subset of fetuses that may warrant abortion will suffer through their childhood and be rejected for sure....now if there is a tiny small fraction of a chance that a new treatment will be developed, they may pull through, and end up pretty happy. Far more likely, they will suffer until death, with little repreive.
Here is the bull example. (H=hapiness)
(H)
6
5 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (then some negative number for a few minutes)
4
3
2
1
0 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20+ (yr)(0=now)
-1
-2
-3
-4
Here is a fetus candidate
(when almost certain to live a miserable life)
(P=hapiness)
(H)
6
5
4
3
2
1
0 5 10 15 20 25 35+ (yr)
-1
-2
-3 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-4
I am talking about fetuses that will just be miserable and in some cases...unloved...or unlovable (inaccesible).
I would easily agree that abortions due to typical financial issues (not extreme things like 3rd world povery where you starve to death), or convienence or "accidents" due not warrant abortion.
I do not think that my parents should have had me (not counting hindsight). Hidsight included...it would still be better for myself and the world if I was not born, unless a UFO lands and abducts me and I get turned into a lovable, useful person, or a genuis somehow.
Click here to visit my userpage at Wikipedia, where I am currently an administrator.:cool2:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
If I told you now that there is a "good likelihood" that you will be gored to death by a bull in twenty years, would you accept a bullet to the back of the head now - and only now - to thwart such a fate?
I think a better question is if I told you you're going to be tortured to death over a period of several weeks in ten years, would you kill yourself now?
Saying "somewhere there is a range" simple isn't good enough. We don't know where that range is, and we can not find it because the issue isn't as simple as weighing percentages.
When it comes to aborting a child, perhaps it would be better if "we were nowhere," as you say. Anything less than 100% probability is unacceptable. One is reminded, perhaps, of the parable of letting a thousand guilty men go free rather than punish one who is innocent.
I am not trying to troll you, Voice.
We both agree that using "happiness in future life" to determine whether or not a fetus should live or die is impossible without some sort of mystical power, or, as you put it, time travel. I have simply chosen to attack this problem from the opposite direction for once, and the result has been the same. If it's a stupid and pointless question to ask someone who has actually endured hardships and traumas whether they wish they had never been born, how much more so it must be to ask the same question about one who has not even endured such hardships and may never do so at all.
Perhaps a better question would be:
If I told you now that there is a "good likelihood" that you will be gored to death by a bull in twenty years, would you accept a bullet to the back of the head now - and only now - to thwart such a fate?
I disagree Nick. You are trying to troll and you dont even know it. Our views are the same on almost everything, so I am not criticising you on that. But, you created this topic to show that no one can know if a life is going to be bad? Thank you Dr. Science. I think we know this. This is a topic that, though I can not atest to your mindset at the time you created, is now a "gotcha" topic and compleatly irrelevant to everything. As a moderator, you should realize this and lock/delete this topic. This is tastless, tactless, and sick. STOP IT
That's absurd. Who could wish he was aborted? I for example is pretty content of my existance, and there are lots of people who live better than me. A man who wishes he was aborted is nuts, that's what I think.
Life is the most precious gift we're given, after all.
I think a better question is if I told you you're going to be tortured to death over a period of several weeks in ten years, would you kill yourself now?
Another way of saying "integral" of a more constant suffering over time. The bull is quite a bit of suffering...but only over a few minutes, and the shock and instant loss of consious would take away much of the pain.
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Click here to visit my userpage at Wikipedia, where I am currently an administrator.:cool2:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Anyhow, the point of this thread is this:
To be, or not to be. That is very much the question, it would seem. Is life, for all of its pain and iniquity, better than preemptive oblivion? Or is the world simply an ordeal from which we must be saved by the cold mercy of the surgeon's knife?
When framing your answer, please consider it within the framework of your life as it stands. I understand that this is a very traumatic issue for many people, and I mean no disrespect. It is because of this that the input of people here who have suffered genuine hardships and misfortunes in their lives is so necessary for this thread.
I would ask, also, that we keep this discussion civil. I have no compunctions whatsoever about closing this thread if things get out of hand. As it is, however, this is a serious and important question that deserves an answer.
I await your input.
From out that wine-dark fog,
And spake he unto all our crew:
"Go forth, and read my blog."
I want to be here but that is mostly because I am here.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
Oh, I agree with you, obviously. This is more for the benefit of the people who have been saying that a child would be better off not existing or something.
And Annorax, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope things get better for you.
From out that wine-dark fog,
And spake he unto all our crew:
"Go forth, and read my blog."
They will probably avoid this thread, anyway.
Are you serious or are you just trying to get a rise out of us?
Well if so, I understand.
The most important thing to know is that you aren't alone. I can't quite remember how it felt to be there, but trust me, I was there. I had that same thought in my head. Except it just kept repeating like a broken record. Over and over and over and over and over and over for nearly a decade. With determination, pure luck and the ears of a few wonderful, compassionate individuals I managed to face up to a kind of torture that I cannot even pretend to recall today. The kind of despair that gives me shivers just to contemplate.
So, if you need someone to listen - let me be the first to volunteer. It is a debt that I would be quite happy to repay.
I've contributed nothing to this world except strife, pain, and a few PSDs.
Oh, and I'm 24, unemployable, and living in my parents' basement off a meager poker income. (Click my sig links to help with this.) I haven't even had a date in close to three years now, and I've pretty much given up all hope of finding anything resembling a normal life.
So if you think I'm not serious... think again.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
I am only 19...but I have many of those problems. Dating/marraige for me will end up like it is for you for the last few years. A lot of stuff like that made me suicidal a few months ago.
Since "not commiting suicide" is reversable...I could always keep on going...run up college debt, and may still end up getting a job and being happy...even if it is not likely. Its all up from the bottom. Otherwise...
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
The more risk the more you have to gain. Life is the biggest risk anyone has.
Nick: I lay a swamp, tap, dark ritual...
Me: If you cast a hypnotic specter I'll punch you in the face
Nick:...ahh I take 3 points of mana burn
The reason I play black according to CrovaxtheCursed:
Thank you.
It is for this reason that the popular sentimentalism surrounding so-called "socio-economic abortions" is hideous, and the practice itself categorically wrong. Feel free to discuss this issue here, of course; I don't want to be responsible for breaking my own rules.
From out that wine-dark fog,
And spake he unto all our crew:
"Go forth, and read my blog."
I find such a suggestion monstrous, obviously, and I feel that most people would agree.
From out that wine-dark fog,
And spake he unto all our crew:
"Go forth, and read my blog."
BTW, Furor, I think you should have issued a warning that it is a public poll. This is a serious subject, and some may have wished to remain anonymous.
By kingcobweb and Goblinboy.
Official Elitist of [thread=40859][RBS][/thread]
Furor, do you wish Adolf Hitler had been aborted?
Or if we want to get even MORE hypothetical and unanswerable, if someone were to kill your parents, would you wish he/she had been aborted?
Technically...this is also a temporal reversion question. Going from ~22 week fetus to aborted fetus means that you never attain conscious...hence you never existed. Though late term abortions are another matter. You wont "regrett" not existing. If any of us were aborted...we wouldn't either, even the happiest man alive.
What is really being asked is: Do you want to die now?
What is this poll here to prove?
If the answer is nothing...good job.
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
I don't consider myself Pro-life, or Pro-choice. I consider myself "Pro-abortion". It is my belief that considering the state of the world at these times. That the real crime is bringing what was once an innocent nothing into a world that has little more to offer other then hate, war, greed, death, and just all around badness.
Certainly I understand this isn't always the case, and if your born into a super rich family with all sorts of luxories and will most likely not have much trouble in strife in your life then sure, might as well be born.
But of course I always understand that this is rarely, if ever the case.
And sure maybe its just my own manic depressive views on life that make me feel that its better to have simply never existed then to be brought into a world where everything is so gosh darn awful
But for years now, I myself truly feel that nothing that has happened on my 25 years on this planet has warrented my existence, and in fact my prolonged existence on this mortal coil has only strenghtened my feelings that my own abortion would have been much better for myself and "most" of the people around me.
I dont know, I personally think people put WAAAAAY to high a value on human life. Sure some humans can do good stuff, cure diseases, help others, make new inventions that will help the world. But lets face it, the majority of humans are either at least totally selfish and offer nothing to this world other then to take what they need/want for themselves, or are indeed actually a burden to humanity. Do we really need to hold on to EVERY human life as if were some sacred god child?
Maybe I wouldn't have these views if I were born into another time, or another life, so I do fully understand that my upbringing and life experiances plays a strong role in my opinion on this. But I guess the same thing could very well be said about most opinions anyone person might have.
Bleh, sorry for wasting your time.
No.
No.
The point of this thread is to show that it is impossible to say whether or not someone's life will be "bad" enough that it would be better that they had never lived at all. Thank you for agreeing with me.
From out that wine-dark fog,
And spake he unto all our crew:
"Go forth, and read my blog."
Abortion is for use in extreme cases. You are asking if a random group of people wished they had been aborted. Most of them are therefore fairly physically/mentally normal (healthy) so do not represent the proper subset of fetuses who might be considered for abortion.
Another thing is that a lot of people that have kids should not being having them....but that does not mean that the fetuses should be aborted...maybe in hindsight...but that is not the issue, as they are NOT in the tiny subset of fetuses.
Yes, 'it is impossible to say whether or not someone's life will be "bad"' if it is a random fetus. If it is a severely deformed fetus...we can get a good 99% chance. 99% of miserable suffering, 1% change of some decent happiness. If we only acted on 100% probability...we would be nowhere. Life is important...so obviously a 3% change of severe ailments, and the suffering that follows is not enough to just kill of a fetus. Depending on the chances...and the severity...somewhere there is a range of reason, and not everyone will see one exact number for this.
So we do not agree...so do not say that I do when I clearly do not as it is just trolling.
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
When it comes to aborting a child, perhaps it would be better if "we were nowhere," as you say. Anything less than 100% probability is unacceptable. One is reminded, perhaps, of the parable of letting a thousand guilty men go free rather than punish one who is innocent.
I am not trying to troll you, Voice.
We both agree that using "happiness in future life" to determine whether or not a fetus should live or die is impossible without some sort of mystical power, or, as you put it, time travel. I have simply chosen to attack this problem from the opposite direction for once, and the result has been the same. If it's a stupid and pointless question to ask someone who has actually endured hardships and traumas whether they wish they had never been born, how much more so it must be to ask the same question about one who has not even endured such hardships and may never do so at all.
Perhaps a better question would be:
If I told you now that there is a "good likelihood" that you will be gored to death by a bull in twenty years, would you accept a bullet to the back of the head now - and only now - to thwart such a fate?
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If I was generally happy overall...and saw no reason that that would change in 20 years...I might choose the bull. If my life was fairly happy, the "integral" from now to 20+ years would likely surpass the bull pain.
Yet again...this is not the subset, and asking a fetus is like asking an ant...it just can't make decisions yet, so someone else (the mother) should make the best choices given what is known. The "integral" is the problem with the bull analogy. The subset of fetuses that may warrant abortion will suffer through their childhood and be rejected for sure....now if there is a tiny small fraction of a chance that a new treatment will be developed, they may pull through, and end up pretty happy. Far more likely, they will suffer until death, with little repreive.
Here is the bull example. (H=hapiness)
(H)
6
5 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (then some negative number for a few minutes)
4
3
2
1
0 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20+ (yr)(0=now)
-1
-2
-3
-4
Here is a fetus candidate
(when almost certain to live a miserable life)
(P=hapiness)
(H)
6
5
4
3
2
1
0 5 10 15 20 25 35+ (yr)
-1
-2
-3 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-4
I am talking about fetuses that will just be miserable and in some cases...unloved...or unlovable (inaccesible).
I would easily agree that abortions due to typical financial issues (not extreme things like 3rd world povery where you starve to death), or convienence or "accidents" due not warrant abortion.
I do not think that my parents should have had me (not counting hindsight). Hidsight included...it would still be better for myself and the world if I was not born, unless a UFO lands and abducts me and I get turned into a lovable, useful person, or a genuis somehow.
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
I think a better question is if I told you you're going to be tortured to death over a period of several weeks in ten years, would you kill yourself now?
I disagree Nick. You are trying to troll and you dont even know it. Our views are the same on almost everything, so I am not criticising you on that. But, you created this topic to show that no one can know if a life is going to be bad? Thank you Dr. Science. I think we know this. This is a topic that, though I can not atest to your mindset at the time you created, is now a "gotcha" topic and compleatly irrelevant to everything. As a moderator, you should realize this and lock/delete this topic. This is tastless, tactless, and sick. STOP IT
Life is the most precious gift we're given, after all.
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Another way of saying "integral" of a more constant suffering over time. The bull is quite a bit of suffering...but only over a few minutes, and the shock and instant loss of consious would take away much of the pain.
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Perhaps the next poll should be for aborted fetuses, just to show how silly this poll is: "Do you wish you wouldn't have been aborted?"