A Mexican Manual for Illegal Migrants Upsets Some in U.S.
January 6, 2005
Copyright
James McKinley, Jr.
The New York Times
MEXICO CITY, Jan. 5 - The Mexican government drew fire from American advocates of tighter borders on Wednesday for publishing a pamphlet that instructs migrants how to safely enter the United States illegally and live there without being detected.
Officials here say the small booklet, illustrated in comic-book style, is not intended to encourage illegal immigration, but to reduce the loss of life. Last year, more than 300 migrants died while crossing rivers and deserts to reach the United States.
The guidebook also advises would-be migrants to avoid hiring professional immigrant-smugglers and to refuse to carry packages for others. It also instructs people never to lie to border officials, carry false documents or resist arrest.
But groups favoring stricter immigration controls said the pamphlet amounted to a how-to manual for illegal immigrants. The booklet gives advice on what clothes to wear when fording a river and how to cross a desert without getting dehydrated.
It also counsels migrants to keep a low profile once in the United States, telling them, for instance, to stay away from loud parties or discos that might be raided by the police and to stay out of domestic disputes, which might lead to an arrest. Finally, it lists what rights migrants have if caught, among them safe transport home, medical care, food and water.
"This is not the action of a friendly neighbor," said Representative Tom Tancredo, the Colorado Republican who chairs the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus. "What would the Mexican government say if we encouraged our citizens to violate Mexican law?"
Mexico's Foreign Ministry, however, said its intent in publishing the "Guide for the Mexican Migrant" was to warn migrants of the dangers they might face if they choose to slip illegally into the United States.
If you cannot read/open an article, you
- use BugMeNot
- google for it and read a cached copy.
My opinion on this subject:
- Fine example of realpolitik.
- People are going to migrate, regardless of a handbook. The Mexicans only give these guidelines to keep people from doing stupid things and getting killed.
- It's not a smart move, they should have funded a NGO to print the book.
- Bigger walls cannot stop economic migrants. As long as the difference in wellfare stays this big, people are going to do everything they can to get in the USA or EU.
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These are the decks that I have constructed, and are ready to play:
01. Ankh Sligh to be exact.
Since basing your views on TV-shows is a legit thing to do I quote something I heard being said somewheres: "The thing that is the hardest thing to do is quite often also the right thing."
That said, I don´t wanna reverse 400 years of injustice. I just want to point out that "legal" and "the right thing" sometimes clashes. And that the Mexicans basicly have just as much right of being there as the rest.
Excuse me. My parents came to this country 20 years ago. They got their green cards legally. They took the tests to become citizens, legally. Mexicans who want to move to the US can do the same.
I stated several times that this action is frown-upon worthy, though not illegal.
Perhaps, but it is basically encouraging illegal activity. Suppose there was a pamphlet being made on how to smuggle weapons into the US. Would you call that "frown-upon worthy, but not illegal?"
Also, it might be construed as "aiding and abetting."
So, you are planning to migrate to Iraq? * puzzle *
Yeas, the attack on Iraq is illegal in Iraq. It might have been the right thing to do for the people there. What bugs me is the false pretenses though. The excuse where nukes/biotech/oblivion stones that just wheren´t there. And what also bugs me is that in reconstructing the country the decision on what countries are allowed to make money of of it is determined by the USA, not the new Iraqi goverment.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.
Atlas of course. And from exerience living in a densely populated country.
California's public schools, especially in LA where I live, are clogged with illegal immigrants and children of illegal immigrants. We may have space out in the country, but that's not where they're coming.
There is no spoo... law. Look; I am still frowning. But there is no law against it. And murder, even one sanctioned by law is still murder.
See "aiding and abetting."
Laws and borders are always a matter of opinion.
WTF??????????????????
This is one of the most idiotic statements ever. It's moral relativism to the highest degree. Laws and borders are in place to protect a group of people. They are not arbitrary opinions, at least in America.
Law-sanctioned taking of human lives is murder based on an opinion. Opinion as a way to justify human lives is wrong.
Really? If we had captured Hitler, he shouldn't have been executed? After all, that's only an opinion, and that shouldn't be used to justify the taking of human life.
Look, if the Mexicans came in guns blazing, with explosives strapped on ´m I would say: Kill or be killed. But trying to reduce casualties is fundamentally a good thing, even if some people feel threatened and insecure.
We feel threatened because there is a threat: the threat of our infrastructure collapsing.
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Quote from ljossberir »
Prizm is the key to the greatness of the US!
Quote from Phyrexian »
If hefner was a rich, gay, playboy and had hot steamy sex with hot guys would you choose him? Of course not, mainly because im a straight male and find that stuff gross.
Stand by my side should I fight
Strengthen my steel should I falter
Smite my back should I flee
Save my soul should I fall
Official Recovering World of Warcraft Addict of The Ivory Tower
Excuse me. My parents came to this country 20 years ago. They got their green cards legally. They took the tests to become citizens, legally. Mexicans who want to move to the US can do the same.
Strictly speaking, they got the greencards from the people who stole the country. It -strictly speaking- is a form of fencing.
Quote from Prizm »
Perhaps, but it is basically encouraging illegal activity. Suppose there was a pamphlet being made on how to smuggle weapons into the US. Would you call that "frown-upon worthy, but not illegal?"
Also, it might be construed as "aiding and abetting."
If the pamphlet is legal in the country it is printed, it is legal. It may not be nice, but it is legal.
Quote from Prizm »
This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.
You are right. So many points, so little time. My point is: The war is illegal in Iraq.
Quote from Prizm »
California's public schools, especially in LA where I live, are clogged with illegal immigrants and children of illegal immigrants. We may have space out in the country, but that's not where they're coming.
Sounds like a problem that can make top ca$h if you find a solution. Build a new immigrant town. Build a new economy!
Quote from Prizm »
WTF??????????????????
This is one of the most idiotic statements ever. It's moral relativism to the highest degree. Laws and borders are in place to protect a group of people. They are not arbitrary opinions, at least in America.
They are. They are opinions agreed upon by a lot of people; But unless there is scientific proof that when people change their minds about where the border goes the border stays where it is it will always be an imaginary line. Even in 200 million people share the illusion. It will always be a manmade matter of opinion.
Quote from Prizm »
Really? If we had captured Hitler, he shouldn't have been executed? After all, that's only an opinion, and that shouldn't be used to justify the taking of human life.
Hitler invaded my country, and made actions that resulted in me not knowing my grandfather by life.
Still, why would I stoop as low as that barbaric, misguided fool? He can have his little Kampf in a nice rubber room for the rest of his miserable life. For his own protection, of course.
Quote from Prizm »
We feel threatened because there is a threat: the threat of our infrastructure collapsing.
That is because your goverment forces people into hiding that could also be encouraged to help expanding the infastructure.
Arkham, the 1920's. Investigators battle horrors from beyond time and space, risking life and sanity while conspiracies of cultists and malign servitors seek gateways for their outer gods to return...
Soon, the stars will be right! Great Cthulhu shall rise!
I was being sarcastic about the "Sounds good" by the way. Is it fair to people who have waited years and years to legally immigrate to the USA that people in Mexico are being aided by the Mexican government to circumvent the rules that they are forced to follow?
5. Manmade opinions matter. You can't just discard them so easily because they're "just" opinions. That's like saying, "Well, you believe murder is wrong, but I don't, so I can kill you if I like."
6. Why should you be allowed to imprison him, then? After all, it's only your opinion.
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Quote from ljossberir »
Prizm is the key to the greatness of the US!
Quote from Phyrexian »
If hefner was a rich, gay, playboy and had hot steamy sex with hot guys would you choose him? Of course not, mainly because im a straight male and find that stuff gross.
Stand by my side should I fight
Strengthen my steel should I falter
Smite my back should I flee
Save my soul should I fall
Official Recovering World of Warcraft Addict of The Ivory Tower
I was being sarcastic about the "Sounds good" by the way. Is it fair to people who have waited years and years to legally immigrate to the USA that people in Mexico are being aided by the Mexican government to circumvent the rules that they are forced to follow?
5. Manmade opinions matter. You can't just discard them so easily because they're "just" opinions. That's like saying, "Well, you believe murder is wrong, but I don't, so I can kill you if I like."
6. Why should you be allowed to imprison him, then? After all, it's only your opinion.
1) Opinion, based on your set of values and believes. Some of the people wh o got their first believed land could not be owned/it is public domain. You believe in "Calling Dibs" or "Might makes Right"?
2) Says who? You may be saying that, but I do not agree. It may not be nice, it may not create friendly relationships, but it is fundamentally an opinion.
3) Agreed. So, if the terrorists win, I guess the point will be moot too, and you would just laugh about the irony... Right!?
4) What is your point? Fortuyn is a politician that I strongly disagreed with. Shooting him was a bad idea; He is just martyred and more and more idiots rise up with parties in "his name and spirit"
lso, France is not a neighbouring country and the voting machines work fine, and are easy to use. I don't really see the point of your article. Immigration works fine here, as long as it is a 2 street. It's work in progress.
5) I * CAN * kill you if I like. -See also: Pim Fortuyn- I will most likely piss a lot of people off, but it is not like the bullits will bounce off because God doesn't want it, or some law of nature would object.
6) Imprisonment is not ideal, no. But unlike killing it is somewhat mostly reversable. People not being sheep would have stopped WWII before it got started but hey, humanity isn't quite there yet.
Arkham, the 1920's. Investigators battle horrors from beyond time and space, risking life and sanity while conspiracies of cultists and malign servitors seek gateways for their outer gods to return...
Soon, the stars will be right! Great Cthulhu shall rise!
1. I think 400 years is long enough to have some legitimate claim to the nation. The statute of limitations has long since run out.
Exactly.
Why don't we just go back 1,000 years while we're at it? Let's see... that means we need to revise the borders of all of Europe, including your country. Then we need to do the same in Asia and Africa. Next, Australia is no longer a political entity. Let's give it back to the tribes who inhabited it earlier... and the few who are still alive from those tribes. Next, we'll have to do massive work in the Middle East... I think that means Israel is legitimate now. Also, we have to get rid of Canada because that is "stolen". While we're at it, Mexico doesn't exist... and neither does Brazil or Argentina.
Godofthegrove, the very land you are standing on probably belongs to some Nordic or Russian tribe. We'll also might have to re establish the Holy Roman Empire. We'll have to expel all whites from Africa, Asia and the Americas and all blacks from the Americas, Asia and Europe. Then we'll take all Asians and expel them from the Americas, Europe and Africa.
Where does it end?! Borders are borders whether they were created through war or not. The USA (and Canada, Mexico, et all) are recognized nations in the world with fixed borders.
Quote from Prizm »
2. It is not legal to encourage your citizens to go do something illegal in another country.
I don't know if this is true or not. But it's certainly reprehensible.
Quote from Prizm »
I was being sarcastic about the "Sounds good" by the way. Is it fair to people who have waited years and years to legally immigrate to the USA that people in Mexico are being aided by the Mexican government to circumvent the rules that they are forced to follow?
Nope, it isn't fair. Another good reason to be angered by this pamphlet.
Quote from Godofthegrove »
6) Imprisonment is not ideal, no. But unlike killing it is somewhat mostly reversable. People not being sheep would have stopped WWII before it got started but hey, humanity isn't quite there yet.
If things were different, they wouldn't be the same?
Quote from Godofthegrove »
Strictly speaking, they got the greencards from the people who stole the country. It -strictly speaking- is a form of fencing.
The people who gave them greencards were the same that were responsible for "stealing" the country? Wow, talk about longevity!
So you believe any nation that was "stolen" has no rights to protect it's borders?
You would agree then that I have the right to immigrate to Canada illegally? And to say, Ecuador? Or Chile?
If you extend your beliefs past the 400 year mark, then you'd also support my illegal immigration to anywhere else in the world really, since all territory has been "stolen" at one point or another.
If things were different, they wouldn't be the same?
The people who gave them greencards were the same that were responsible for "stealing" the country? Wow, talk about longevity!
So you believe any nation that was "stolen" has no rights to protect it's borders?
You would agree then that I have the right to immigrate to Canada illegally? And to say, Ecuador? Or Chile?
If you extend your beliefs past the 400 year mark, then you'd also support my illegal immigration to anywhere else in the world really, since all territory has been "stolen" at one point or another.[/font]
It is quite true that if things where different, they wouldn't be the same. But still, things are the same and in this samey, imperfect world I believe that imprisonment is less wrong then murder.
And yes, you may move to Canada. I don't think it should be illegal for you to do so. That is called freedom, and is generally seen as a good idea.
It's a shame that people will always abuse freedom for selfish ends, but I can have an ideal, can i? I hope humans one day will surpass this need for territory and belongings and thus create a more efficient and friendly civilisation.[/font]
Arkham, the 1920's. Investigators battle horrors from beyond time and space, risking life and sanity while conspiracies of cultists and malign servitors seek gateways for their outer gods to return...
Soon, the stars will be right! Great Cthulhu shall rise!
And yes, you may move to Canada. I don't think it should be illegal for you to do so.
Thinking is generally a good thing, but in this case you think wrong. Moving into Canada without the concent of proper Canadian authorities is frowned upon and illegal, and will earn you a short ride in a police car, followed by long (or short, depending where you came from) ride in a plane/boat/train.
[QUOTE=GodoftheGrove]It's a shame that people will always abuse freedom for selfish ends, but I can have an ideal, can i? I hope humans one day will surpass this need for territory and belongings and thus create a more efficient and friendly civilisation[/QUOTE]
Please stop, your nobility and idealistic will to commandeer American territory for the benefit of Mexicans bring tears to my eyes. Please don't ever do it again. I have a rare disease, I'm allergic to my own tears.
I'ld like to address some points some people brought up earlier in this thread, but seeing as how I'm lazy, and I don't want to type something most people will just ignore, I found someone who has already said this before me, and in pretty picture form no less!
I'ld like to address some points some people brought up earlier in this thread, but seeing as how I'm lazy, and I don't want to type something most people will just ignore, I found someone who has already said this before me, and in pretty picture form no less!
1) I claim that illegal immigrants shouldn't be paid the same wage as Americans. But only because they shouldn't be here in the first place!
2) No one here claimed that. Not even close. If we didn't want any [insert ethnic slur] we wouldn't be allowing them in legally. And we are!
3) How do you suppose we force equal pay for illegal immigrants? If we allowed citizenship to all illegals, then they wouldn't come forward to get it... because if they did, they'd have a harder time getting a job.
(Maddox is cool... but we disagree on this issue entirely)
[font=georgia]Thinking is generally a good thing, but in this case you think wrong. Moving into Canada without the concent of proper Canadian authorities is frowned upon and illegal, and will earn you a short ride in a police car, followed by long (or short, depending where you came from) ride in a plane/boat/train. [/font]
I am not saying that it is legal, but that I think it should be legal. There is a difference. Read please.
Quote from Ruslan »
Please stop, your nobility and idealistic will to commandeer American territory for the benefit of Mexicans bring tears to my eyes. Please don't ever do it again. I have a rare disease, I'm allergic to my own tears.
Oh, you have an eye problem. That's why you can't read well. Acknowledged. I am also very sorry to hear, that where you live it is illegal to have ideals.
But, a policecar + boatride is an improvement over just shooting someone.[/font]
Arkham, the 1920's. Investigators battle horrors from beyond time and space, risking life and sanity while conspiracies of cultists and malign servitors seek gateways for their outer gods to return...
Soon, the stars will be right! Great Cthulhu shall rise!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
If you cannot read/open an article, you
- use BugMeNot
- google for it and read a cached copy.
My opinion on this subject:
- Fine example of realpolitik.
- People are going to migrate, regardless of a handbook. The Mexicans only give these guidelines to keep people from doing stupid things and getting killed.
- It's not a smart move, they should have funded a NGO to print the book.
- Bigger walls cannot stop economic migrants. As long as the difference in wellfare stays this big, people are going to do everything they can to get in the USA or EU.
These are the decks that I have constructed, and are ready to play:
01. Ankh Sligh to be exact.
Excuse me. My parents came to this country 20 years ago. They got their green cards legally. They took the tests to become citizens, legally. Mexicans who want to move to the US can do the same.
Perhaps, but it is basically encouraging illegal activity. Suppose there was a pamphlet being made on how to smuggle weapons into the US. Would you call that "frown-upon worthy, but not illegal?"
Also, it might be construed as "aiding and abetting."
This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.
California's public schools, especially in LA where I live, are clogged with illegal immigrants and children of illegal immigrants. We may have space out in the country, but that's not where they're coming.
See "aiding and abetting."
WTF??????????????????
This is one of the most idiotic statements ever. It's moral relativism to the highest degree. Laws and borders are in place to protect a group of people. They are not arbitrary opinions, at least in America.
Really? If we had captured Hitler, he shouldn't have been executed? After all, that's only an opinion, and that shouldn't be used to justify the taking of human life.
We feel threatened because there is a threat: the threat of our infrastructure collapsing.
Strengthen my steel should I falter
Smite my back should I flee
Save my soul should I fall
Official Recovering World of Warcraft Addict of The Ivory Tower
Strictly speaking, they got the greencards from the people who stole the country. It -strictly speaking- is a form of fencing.
If the pamphlet is legal in the country it is printed, it is legal. It may not be nice, but it is legal.
You are right. So many points, so little time. My point is: The war is illegal in Iraq.
Sounds like a problem that can make top ca$h if you find a solution. Build a new immigrant town. Build a new economy!
They are. They are opinions agreed upon by a lot of people; But unless there is scientific proof that when people change their minds about where the border goes the border stays where it is it will always be an imaginary line. Even in 200 million people share the illusion. It will always be a manmade matter of opinion.
Hitler invaded my country, and made actions that resulted in me not knowing my grandfather by life.
Still, why would I stoop as low as that barbaric, misguided fool? He can have his little Kampf in a nice rubber room for the rest of his miserable life. For his own protection, of course.
That is because your goverment forces people into hiding that could also be encouraged to help expanding the infastructure.
• Call of Cthulhu CCG Servitor for the Netherlands!
Arkham, the 1920's. Investigators battle horrors from beyond time and space, risking life and sanity while conspiracies of cultists and malign servitors seek gateways for their outer gods to return...
Soon, the stars will be right! Great Cthulhu shall rise!
2. It is not legal to encourage your citizens to go do something illegal in another country.
3. Seeing as the old Iraqi government no longer exists, the point is moot.
4. Sounds good. How about you tell it to your politicians?
http://www.americanfreepress.net/NWO/21_Party%20of%20Murdered%20Dutch%20Popu.htm
I was being sarcastic about the "Sounds good" by the way. Is it fair to people who have waited years and years to legally immigrate to the USA that people in Mexico are being aided by the Mexican government to circumvent the rules that they are forced to follow?
5. Manmade opinions matter. You can't just discard them so easily because they're "just" opinions. That's like saying, "Well, you believe murder is wrong, but I don't, so I can kill you if I like."
6. Why should you be allowed to imprison him, then? After all, it's only your opinion.
Strengthen my steel should I falter
Smite my back should I flee
Save my soul should I fall
Official Recovering World of Warcraft Addict of The Ivory Tower
1) Opinion, based on your set of values and believes. Some of the people wh o got their first believed land could not be owned/it is public domain. You believe in "Calling Dibs" or "Might makes Right"?
2) Says who? You may be saying that, but I do not agree. It may not be nice, it may not create friendly relationships, but it is fundamentally an opinion.
3) Agreed. So, if the terrorists win, I guess the point will be moot too, and you would just laugh about the irony... Right!?
4) What is your point? Fortuyn is a politician that I strongly disagreed with. Shooting him was a bad idea; He is just martyred and more and more idiots rise up with parties in "his name and spirit"
lso, France is not a neighbouring country and the voting machines work fine, and are easy to use. I don't really see the point of your article. Immigration works fine here, as long as it is a 2 street. It's work in progress.
5) I * CAN * kill you if I like. -See also: Pim Fortuyn- I will most likely piss a lot of people off, but it is not like the bullits will bounce off because God doesn't want it, or some law of nature would object.
6) Imprisonment is not ideal, no. But unlike killing it is somewhat mostly reversable. People not being sheep would have stopped WWII before it got started but hey, humanity isn't quite there yet.
• Call of Cthulhu CCG Servitor for the Netherlands!
Arkham, the 1920's. Investigators battle horrors from beyond time and space, risking life and sanity while conspiracies of cultists and malign servitors seek gateways for their outer gods to return...
Soon, the stars will be right! Great Cthulhu shall rise!
Exactly.
Why don't we just go back 1,000 years while we're at it? Let's see... that means we need to revise the borders of all of Europe, including your country. Then we need to do the same in Asia and Africa. Next, Australia is no longer a political entity. Let's give it back to the tribes who inhabited it earlier... and the few who are still alive from those tribes. Next, we'll have to do massive work in the Middle East... I think that means Israel is legitimate now. Also, we have to get rid of Canada because that is "stolen". While we're at it, Mexico doesn't exist... and neither does Brazil or Argentina.
Godofthegrove, the very land you are standing on probably belongs to some Nordic or Russian tribe. We'll also might have to re establish the Holy Roman Empire. We'll have to expel all whites from Africa, Asia and the Americas and all blacks from the Americas, Asia and Europe. Then we'll take all Asians and expel them from the Americas, Europe and Africa.
Where does it end?! Borders are borders whether they were created through war or not. The USA (and Canada, Mexico, et all) are recognized nations in the world with fixed borders.
I don't know if this is true or not. But it's certainly reprehensible.
Nope, it isn't fair. Another good reason to be angered by this pamphlet.
If things were different, they wouldn't be the same?
The people who gave them greencards were the same that were responsible for "stealing" the country? Wow, talk about longevity!
So you believe any nation that was "stolen" has no rights to protect it's borders?
You would agree then that I have the right to immigrate to Canada illegally? And to say, Ecuador? Or Chile?
If you extend your beliefs past the 400 year mark, then you'd also support my illegal immigration to anywhere else in the world really, since all territory has been "stolen" at one point or another.
It is quite true that if things where different, they wouldn't be the same. But still, things are the same and in this samey, imperfect world I believe that imprisonment is less wrong then murder.
And yes, you may move to Canada. I don't think it should be illegal for you to do so. That is called freedom, and is generally seen as a good idea.
It's a shame that people will always abuse freedom for selfish ends, but I can have an ideal, can i? I hope humans one day will surpass this need for territory and belongings and thus create a more efficient and friendly civilisation.[/font]
• Call of Cthulhu CCG Servitor for the Netherlands!
Arkham, the 1920's. Investigators battle horrors from beyond time and space, risking life and sanity while conspiracies of cultists and malign servitors seek gateways for their outer gods to return...
Soon, the stars will be right! Great Cthulhu shall rise!
Thinking is generally a good thing, but in this case you think wrong. Moving into Canada without the concent of proper Canadian authorities is frowned upon and illegal, and will earn you a short ride in a police car, followed by long (or short, depending where you came from) ride in a plane/boat/train.
[QUOTE=GodoftheGrove]It's a shame that people will always abuse freedom for selfish ends, but I can have an ideal, can i? I hope humans one day will surpass this need for territory and belongings and thus create a more efficient and friendly civilisation[/QUOTE]
Please stop, your nobility and idealistic will to commandeer American territory for the benefit of Mexicans bring tears to my eyes. Please don't ever do it again. I have a rare disease, I'm allergic to my own tears.
You want to reward people for breaking the law?
#2. Dungeon Keeper Ami; Proving that sometimes the best Villians are the ones who used to be Heros.
#3. Ow, My Sanity: There are things man was not meant to love.
1) I claim that illegal immigrants shouldn't be paid the same wage as Americans. But only because they shouldn't be here in the first place!
2) No one here claimed that. Not even close. If we didn't want any [insert ethnic slur] we wouldn't be allowing them in legally. And we are!
3) How do you suppose we force equal pay for illegal immigrants? If we allowed citizenship to all illegals, then they wouldn't come forward to get it... because if they did, they'd have a harder time getting a job.
(Maddox is cool... but we disagree on this issue entirely)
No, I think he wants to change the law so that they are no longer breaking it.
I am not saying that it is legal, but that I think it should be legal. There is a difference. Read please.
Oh, you have an eye problem. That's why you can't read well. Acknowledged. I am also very sorry to hear, that where you live it is illegal to have ideals.
But, a policecar + boatride is an improvement over just shooting someone.[/font]
• Call of Cthulhu CCG Servitor for the Netherlands!
Arkham, the 1920's. Investigators battle horrors from beyond time and space, risking life and sanity while conspiracies of cultists and malign servitors seek gateways for their outer gods to return...
Soon, the stars will be right! Great Cthulhu shall rise!