The Mexican government drew fire from American advocates of tighter borders on Wednesday for publishing a pamphlet that instructs migrants how to safely enter the United States illegally and live there without being detected....Officials here say the small booklet, illustrated in comic-book style, is not intended to encourage illegal immigration, but to reduce the loss of life.
Question for Debate: Did the Mexican Government overstep it boundaries by publishing a pamphlet on how to illegally immigrate to the US, or is just protecting it citizens?
Well, I couldn't read the whole article since you need to subscribe, but from what's been posted, yes the Mexican government is overstepping itself. Though from their point of view I can see how it could be seen as protecting their citizens. But my question is, what's so horrible about Mexico that it's government is advocating illegally entering another country just to get the hell away? The quote says they want to "reduce the loss of life", but loss of life from what? Is the situation in Mexico that dire? If not, wouldn't the money used to put together this escape guide be more useful in actually trying to fix whatever problem is forcing people to illegally immigrate? And if getting out of Mexico is so important, why not just legally immigrate to a different country instead of America?
I must not be understanding the context of all this, because I have a lot of questions. But From what I know currently, I think it's not cool of Mexico to endorse illegally entering a country which is trying to tighten its flow of immigrants. It strikes me as a little disrespectful. "Don't listen to what that country says, now here's how you can go live there without them catching you." It's all so .... odd.
I honestly think that this is a bad idea and will only result in another Great Wall to be erected, cutting us off from Mexico. Oh well, they deserve it.
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Question for Debate: Did the Mexican Government overstep it boundaries by publishing a pamphlet on how to illegally immigrate to the US, or is just protecting it citizens?
Absolutely. I can hardly believe this. One of the only areas where George W. has actually earned his title of "compassionate conservative" is the immigration issue. He's been very generous to Mexico thusfar.
Apparently, the Mexican government doesn't think the US has a right to pass laws on immigration. The US is one of the most accommodating (if not the most) when it comes to immigration laws.
Mexicans are fleeing their country by the thousands. This pamphlet gives me the impression that their government favors "dumping" their citizens on us rather than working to improve their living conditions.
I mean, I can't even imagine the number of Mexicans trying to get into the US. They come everday legally. More of them come everyday illegally. The fact is, it's already too easy to live here illegally. The Mexican gov't has enough problems of it's own, it shouldn't be wasting it's time conspiring with it's citizens to violate the laws of another country.
This is one matter I have a rather firm position on. It's a rather unpopular position but that is not my concern.
I believe all known illegal immigrants should be deported immediately. Except in extreme circumstances and in the case that they are fleeing persecution in their former country.
It all boils down to respect. Plenty of people enter the US legally each year. To enter and live in my country illegally, is a sign of disrespect to me. Anyone who enters should do so under the auspices of law. Illegal immigrants do not pay taxes (except perhaps sales tax). Yet the American people pay, in many cases, for their medical bills. We pay for their safety (police, firefighters). We pay for the roads they travel on, the mass transit they use and the maintenance of their freedoms and rights here. If they don't have enough respect for American laws to achieve their status legally, then they aren't worthy of being here.
Uhm, I think by that the definition of citizen and immigrant are contrasting...
We have far too many people in this country right now and I can only assume that the people sneaking in aren't the rocket scientists and bio-chemical engineers of Mexico. I think right now, America is full up on stupid. They're the backbone of much of our labor, but that's only because so much of our country is lazy and ignorant... I dunno where I'm going with this. Pamphlet=bad.
I believe all known illegal immigrants should be deported immediately. Except in extreme circumstances and in the case that they are fleeing persecution in their former country.
It all boils down to respect. Plenty of people enter the US legally each year. To enter and live in my country illegally, is a sign of disrespect to me. Anyone who enters should do so under the auspices of law. Illegal immigrants do not pay taxes (except perhaps sales tax). Yet the American people pay, in many cases, for their medical bills. We pay for their safety (police, firefighters). We pay for the roads they travel on, the mass transit they use and the maintenance of their freedoms and rights here. If they don't have enough respect for American laws to achieve their status legally, then they aren't worthy of being here.
Truthery.
Quote from Kijin »
Uhm, I think by that the definition of citizen and immigrant are contrasting...
We have far too many people in this country right now and I can only assume that the people sneaking in aren't the rocket scientists and bio-chemical engineers of Mexico. I think right now, America is full up on stupid. They're the backbone of much of our labor, but that's only because so much of our country is lazy and ignorant... I dunno where I'm going with this. Pamphlet=bad.
How did you turn this thread into another "America is dumb" thread? They're the backbone of much of our labor for one reason and one reason alone: Their labor is almost free. They get baid $1 an hour or worse, and are happy. This is illegal. Son't blame the US for it.
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As a Southern Californian, this issue is near and dear to my heart. Unfortunately, no one except us seems to care.
Perhaps America should adopt Mexico's policy for dealing with illegal immigrants coming up from the south.
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No, I don´t think Mexico overstept bounderies here. America has relative little people living in it per KM². So, a few Mexicans could never be a problem. It just means there is more cannonfodder to send to Iraq, which helps the oil theft. I mean "reconstruction." - Or, use these new recruits to annex Mexico. There is noone living there anymore anyways.
There is no point in shooting people for a little piece of land. That is just dumb and silly. I would even call it barbaric.
And if illigal immigration is such a problem; Almost everyone in the US of A is, or has ancestors who where illigal immigrants. The USA is violently stolen from the native americans.
A government of a bloodcountry, that kills without trial is wrong, not a few new settlers that share the believe that everyone should be free in the persuit of happyness.
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And if illigal immigration is such a problem; Almost everyone in the US of A is, or has ancestors who where illigal immigrants. The USA is violently stolen from the native americans.
What do your propose? That we give the country back to the Native Americans and move back to Europe? I'm sure the French would be glad to put up with 200 million fat, stupid Americans.
They are illegal. Publishing something that aids criminals is aiding and abedding criminal activity. Period.
I don't care about the debate over border security here, X is illegal and Mexico is publishing things promoting X. Period.
If the US government put out a pamphlet on how to safely build Meth labs, they would not be 'reducing the loss of life' in Meth labs, they would be promoting their creation.
They are illegal. Publishing something that aids criminals is aiding and abedding criminal activity. Period.
I don't care about the debate over border security here, X is illegal and Mexico is publishing things promoting X. Period.
If the US government put out a pamphlet on how to safely build Meth labs, they would not be 'reducing the loss of life' in Meth labs, they would be promoting their creation.
X is illegal in the US. X, appearantly is legal in Mexico. Shooting people is prolly illegal in Mexico, and appearantly legal in the US.
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X is illegal in the US. X, appearantly is legal in Mexico. Shooting people is prolly illegal in Mexico, and appearantly legal in the US.
What is the worse crime? Publishing or murder?
Besides the fact that a crime is still a crime, even if there is a worse one, there is a baser fact. US Law cares about just that, US Law. Save Extradition treaties, US law couldn't really give less of a crap about what's legal or illegal in Mexico. You don't get to promote breaking our laws.
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[font=Georgia][/font]US law couldn't really give less of a crap about what's legal or illegal in Mexico. You don't get to promote breaking our laws.
There is no crime. US law couldn´t really give less of a crap about what´s legal or illegal in Mexico, so if promoting breaking US law is legal in Mexico, US law can´t do anything about it. So it isn´t a crime. There is no law against it. So, everyone and his dog can promote breaking US laws, as long as they are not doing that IN the US. Safe for some stupid treaties. But that is another story.[/font]
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X is illegal in the US. X, appearantly is legal in Mexico. Shooting people is prolly illegal in Mexico, and appearantly legal in the US.
What is the worse crime? Publishing or murder?
Something you may find interesting: The Mexican government shoots illegal immigrants coming up from its southern border on sight. Should America do the same?
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Prizm is the key to the greatness of the US!
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If hefner was a rich, gay, playboy and had hot steamy sex with hot guys would you choose him? Of course not, mainly because im a straight male and find that stuff gross.
Stand by my side should I fight
Strengthen my steel should I falter
Smite my back should I flee
Save my soul should I fall
Official Recovering World of Warcraft Addict of The Ivory Tower
First, I don't buy the "America is a nation of immigrants, so it should let whomever wants to immigrate to do so." Immigration needs to be a two way street in that not only should the immigrant be able to benefit from living in America, America should be able to benefit from the immigrant. It's not in our best interest to allow people in who will not be productive members of society, and that should be the overriding consideration when determining who gets to enter the country.
(I do feel very bad about what happened to the Native Americans. It's a damn shame that "our" ancestors wiped out civilizations that seemed to have a much healthier (i.e. healthier for them and for the planet) approach to life).
That being said, here's where I start feeling internal conflict. To varying degrees, I agree with all of these:
1) Illegal immigrants should be bounced back to their home country, no questions asked. If you want to live here, go through the proper channels.
2) Illegal immigrants do work here that noone else wants to do for the pay offered (in particular, migrant farm labor). If they want to come here to pick lettuce in the hot Texas/SoCal sun for $2/hr, more power to them.
3) #2 is basically slavery, dressed up with a little pay. Slavery is unbecoming a civilized society.
4) Illegal immigrants consume more in social services than they pay in taxes, particularly health care. They drive the price up and drive the quality of care down for people like me who pay for their own health care (either directly or through employer programs) AND pay for Medicaid, etc. In particular, they go to emergency rooms for primary care because hospitals by law cannot turn them away due to inability to pay and often the hospitals won't charge them anyway (see Medicaid and what they charge me/my insurance company).
5) Being tough on immigration is a hallmark of being a conservative. I look forward to being a conservative about as much as I look forward to another episode of ulcerative colitis (basically the inside of your colon looks and feels like it's gone through a meat grinder. It's very painful).
Mexico's endorsement of breaking US immigration law is unacceptable, in any event. It's also an indication of how Mexico feels about its citizens that live in poverty (namely, that it should be the US's problem).
There is no crime. US law couldn´t really give less of a crap about what´s legal or illegal in Mexico, so if promoting breaking US law is legal in Mexico, US law can´t do anything about it. So it isn´t a crime. There is no law against it. So, everyone and his dog can promote breaking US laws, as long as they are not doing that IN the US. Safe for some stupid treaties. But that is another story.
But, to quote West Wing, in an era in which you can build a bomb in your country and bring it into mine, your country is very much my buisness.
Are you saying that even if ALL of Mexico was a completely lawless land, filled with everything anti-American - Whorehouses, legal gambling and murder, drug cartels, daily American flag burnings and... I dunno people who hate Apple Pie. You really think the US Government isn't going to be bothered, in a global era? You really think we have no right to ensure other nations aren't openly pushing for the violation of our own laws?
Beyond that, diplomatic relations don't have to be based on law, and when we are pressing for TIGHTER border security, promoting breaking said security will not get you in the US' good books.
First, I don't buy the "America is a nation of immigrants, so it should let whomever wants to immigrate to do so." Immigration needs to be a two way street in that not only should the immigrant be able to benefit from living in America, America should be able to benefit from the immigrant. It's not in our best interest to allow people in who will not be productive members of society, and that should be the overriding consideration when determining who gets to enter the country.
(I do feel very bad about what happened to the Native Americans. It's a damn shame that "our" ancestors wiped out civilizations that seemed to have a much healthier (i.e. healthier for them and for the planet) approach to life).
That being said, here's where I start feeling internal conflict. To varying degrees, I agree with all of these:
1) Illegal immigrants should be bounced back to their home country, no questions asked. If you want to live here, go through the proper channels.
2) Illegal immigrants do work here that noone else wants to do for the pay offered (in particular, migrant farm labor). If they want to come here to pick lettuce in the hot Texas/SoCal sun for $2/hr, more power to them.
3) #2 is basically slavery, dressed up with a little pay. Slavery is unbecoming a civilized society.
4) Illegal immigrants consume more in social services than they pay in taxes, particularly health care. They drive the price up and drive the quality of care down for people like me who pay for their own health care (either directly or through employer programs) AND pay for Medicaid, etc. In particular, they go to emergency rooms for primary care because hospitals by law cannot turn them away due to inability to pay and often the hospitals won't charge them anyway (see Medicaid and what they charge me/my insurance company).
5) Being tough on immigration is a hallmark of being a conservative. I look forward to being a conservative about as much as I look forward to another episode of ulcerative colitis (basically the inside of your colon looks and feels like it's gone through a meat grinder. It's very painful).
Mexico's endorsement of breaking US immigration law is unacceptable, in any event. It's also an indication of how Mexico feels about its citizens that live in poverty (namely, that it should be the US's problem).
1) Ok, I somewhat agree. It sounds sorta hopefull...and it will prolly help social security issues a bit so, acknowledged.
2) Exactly. Sure, it brings down the price of unschooled labour, but otherwise that labour is going to be fullfilled in another continent, Azia for instance.
3) Well, a minimum wage that makes life survivable, and allows for them chipping in on point 1. Also, it means more consumers, so better economy.
4) So, in your book it is okay for people to die who could be saved, just for the sake of an imaginary line? That is a bit iffy.
5) If I had the choice between a tight colon, or a grinded one, I go for tight. No contest. Sorry
Quote from Stax »
But, to quote West Wing, in an era in which you can build a bomb in your country and bring it into mine, your country is very much my buisness.
Are you saying that even if ALL of Mexico was a completely lawless land, filled with everything anti-American - Whorehouses, legal gambling and murder, drug cartels, daily American flag burnings and... I dunno people who hate Apple Pie. You really think the US Government isn't going to be bothered, in a global era? You really think we have no right to ensure other nations aren't openly pushing for the violation of our own laws?
Beyond that, diplomatic relations don't have to be based on law, and when we are pressing for TIGHTER border security, promoting breaking said security will not get you in the US' good books.
Good! you base your life on a (albeit good) TV show. It is only a problem when they bring the bomb. If I reason like that, the Dutch should invade America soon, just to be sure...
So what if All of Mexico:
- was Lawless? It would be a Liberetarian paradise. Unlike Dutch law, everyone could just own a gun! W00t!
- had Whorehouses everywhere? Why should anyone care how you make money if you aren't really hurting anyone? As long as no-one is doing something against his or her will, why bother stopping supply/demand AND helping to prevent rape as well. Or as a service to handicapped people? I don't see why that should be illegal anyways. It is just sex. I bet your parents had sex...
- had Legal gambling? How can gambling be a problem for responsible citizens anyway? And you said it yourself: Its legal! Yay! Why would someone care how I spend my money? I earned it right?
- had daily flagburnings? Who cares? America sells more flags. I sell you the Dutch flag so you can burn it, no-one really gets hurt by it anyways. It's not like they burn people, or your belongings or anything. It's just a picture on a piece of cloth. If you burn a picture of me, or any flag, I won't be shooting at you for that. That is just stupid.
:guns::rocket: <- Go ahead!
I understand the diplomatic reasons. I understand that promoting this form of immigration is frowned upon. But this promotion is just not illegal for all intent and purpose.
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I understand the diplomatic reasons. I understand that promoting this form of immigration is frowned upon. But this promotion is just not illegal for all intent and purpose.
Promoting the citizens of your country to break the laws of another country may not be an illegal action in and of itself, but it is still wrong. Just because it's not illegal doesn't make it right. Fact is, if people want to immigrate they should do it legally, otherwise they should be bounced back to wherever they came from. Period.
And America has every right to be concerned, Mexico is enticing its citizens to ignore US law and enter the country anyway. In my mind, your business is your business unless it affects me, then it's my business too. Mexico made it America's business when it started promoting the blatant disregard for American law.
I only hope this doesn't lead to America closing its borders to all immigrants from Mexico, legal or otherwise.
Something you may find interesting: The Mexican government shoots illegal immigrants coming up from its southern border on sight. Should America do the same?
Yes.
Quote from Godofthegrove »
I understand the diplomatic reasons. I understand that promoting this form of immigration is frowned upon. But this promotion is just not illegal for all intent and purpose.
I don't know whether it is illegal according to "world laws". What I do know is this: the Mexican government is way out of bounds. They have the right to create (or not create) any particular laws in their homeland. But this pamphlet is a slap in the face. It disputes the right of the US to govern itself and it encourages the violation of laws in foreign lands.
Suppose automatic machine guns are legal in nation X. They are illegal in nation Y. Nation X publishes a pamphlet showing it's citizens how to smuggle these weapons into nation Y and get away with it. Nation X is violating the sovereignty of nation Y by doing so.
Quote from Godofthegrove »
X is illegal in the US. X, appearantly is legal in Mexico. Shooting people is prolly illegal in Mexico, and appearantly legal in the US.
No. Shooting people is not legal in the United States. If you're talking about illegal immigrants, in the moment they are crossing the border, it may very well be. But then, it's also legal in Mexico to do that.
The US immigration policy is much more generous than most.
Quote from Godofthegrove »
What is the worse crime? Publishing or murder?
Huh? So then why don't we make theft legal... just because rape is worse?
Quote from Godofthegrove »
. It just means there is more cannonfodder to send to Iraq, which helps the oil theft.
Ok, this thread is about illegal immigration. I know you think only the US is capable of commiting any wrongs, but please bear that in mind. Stay on topic.
Your point makes no sense anyway. There is no draft. Illegal immigrants usually come here to start a better life, not to go off to war... so I doubt they'll volunteer either. Furthermore, illegal immigrants live "off the radar". Many of them are not even known to the gov't.
Quote from Godofthegrove »
I mean "reconstruction."
You forgot to mention the glorious freedom fighters in Iraq, led by the kind, wise soul al-Zarqawi... who sees democracy for what it really is: a threat to the freedom of dictators everywhere! :tongue2:
Quote from Godofthegrove »
- Or, use these new recruits to annex Mexico. There is noone living there anymore anyways.
At the risk of repeating what was already said on this threat:
- Illegal immigrants should be deported to their countries of origin as soon as they are recognized as such by law-enforcement. Immediately. Do not pass go, do not even go to jail. The goverment should not spend on the illegal immigrant any more money than the price of a one-way ticket.
- Shooting is a bit out of order however. I would like to believe America is better than that. The are law-breakers, not enemy combatants, after all.
- What the Mexican government is doing is legal, according to the letter of the law, but way out of line, according to acceptable guidelines of international relations. Basically, they are just begging to get slapped by some kind of US sanction in return. I would like to belive the pamphlet that started it all is was produced by some mid-level guy in some Mexican ministry-of-something-or-other, who simply wasn't thinking clearly and haven't considered the consequences.
ljoss: Yeah, I kinda feel like that too, but I didn't think he would. :smile2:
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If hefner was a rich, gay, playboy and had hot steamy sex with hot guys would you choose him? Of course not, mainly because im a straight male and find that stuff gross.
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Smite my back should I flee
Save my soul should I fall
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At the risk of repeating what was already said on this threat:
- Illegal immigrants should be deported to their countries of origin as soon as they are recognized as such by law-enforcement. Immediately. Do not pass go, do not even go to jail. The goverment should not spend on the illegal immigrant any more money than the price of a one-way ticket.
- Shooting is a bit out of order however. I would like to believe America is better than that. The are law-breakers, not enemy combatants, after all.
- What the Mexican government is doing is legal, according to the letter of the law, but way out of line, according to acceptable guidelines of international relations. Basically, they are just begging to get slapped by some kind of US sanction in return. I would like to belive the pamphlet that started it all is was produced by some mid-level guy in some Mexican ministry-of-something-or-other, who simply wasn't thinking clearly and haven't considered the consequences.
Point 2 and 3 I agree on - mostly. I think that enemy combatants should get a trial too, whenever possible (they get POW'ed for example) - Nothing will vex them more then a country of devils treating them better then the country of God. Way to demoralize!
About point one, I still believe you can't do that to Ireland. America has way more Irish people then fit on the island of Ire. I still believe that americans are basicly illegal immigrants that live on stolen property. So if you take the illegality issue to seriously, the USA ceases to be. And it stops to be the land of the free, opportunity and blatant kapitalism and meritocracy.
And someone else mentioned that Mexico shoots people too. So if Mexico jumps of a bridge...
And world-law... It is only a law if you agreed to it. (That's why -I- want to terraform mars and make it a socialist planet. It's not called "The Red Planet" for nothing right?) - And then there is no law that stops you from changing your mind.
There is plenty of space people. The problems it would cause are on the long run neckledgable. Everything is going to be just fine.
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About point one, I still believe you can't do that to Ireland. America has way more Irish people then fit on the island of Ire. I still believe that americans are basicly illegal immigrants that live on stolen property. So if you take the illegality issue to seriously, the USA ceases to be. And it stops to be the land of the free, opportunity and blatant kapitalism and meritocracy.
That's right, the US is stolen property. I say we go back 400 years and return all land to their 'rightful' owners. That would be easy!
Quote from Godofthegrove »
And someone else mentioned that Mexico shoots people too. So if Mexico jumps of a bridge...
You targeted America's position here. Any reasonable person realizes that the Mexican gov't is to fault for this issue. Why you use this thread as a launching pad for your anti-American sentiment is beyond me. There are... (roughly) 5 active threads that are devoted to America-bashing.
While we're here, I suggest we discuss illegal immigration.
Quote from Godofthegrove »
And world-law... It is only a law if you agreed to it. (That's why -I- want to terraform mars and make it a socialist planet. It's not called "The Red Planet" for nothing right?) - And then there is no law that stops you from changing your mind.
So if someone says that the invasion of Iraq was illegal, it doesn't matter... as long the invaders disagreed?
Quote from Godofthegrove »
There is plenty of space people. The problems it would cause are on the long run neckledgable. Everything is going to be just fine.
...and you know this how? Have you been to southern Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California? Or are you just basing your views on some figures in a world atlas?
Whether there is space or not is not important. The fact is that they are violating the law.
I can't justify homicide by saying the world is overpopulated!
The Mexican government is way out of line; however, this is not really much of a surprise to me.
At the beginning of Bush's first term (or at some point in his first term, the date is hard to remember), I recall the Mexican president asking Bush to take a "challenge." What was the challenge?
Legalize the illegal immigrants.
This reminds me of a class discussion I had in my government class in my junior year of high school. The teacher asked us about the borders. Everyone started screaming "We need to shut them down!"
I sighed and slowly raised my hand. Then responded, "That's great. We shut them down. But, what stops those people from trying to get in?"
The class fell silent.
We have a country that gives chances to nearly everyone. We take it for advantage or we don't try. I'm not agreeing with the Mexican government, but I think those people that want to come here deserve a shot.
That's right, the US is stolen property. I say we go back 400 years and return all land to their 'rightful' owners. That would be easy!
Since basing your views on TV-shows is a legit thing to do I quote something I heard being said somewheres: "The thing that is the hardest thing to do is quite often also the right thing."
That said, I don´t wanna reverse 400 years of injustice. I just want to point out that "legal" and "the right thing" sometimes clashes. And that the Mexicans basicly have just as much right of being there as the rest.
Quote from ljossberir »
You targeted America's position here. Any reasonable person realizes that the Mexican gov't is to fault for this issue. Why you use this thread as a launching pad for your anti-American sentiment is beyond me. There are... (roughly) 5 active threads that are devoted to America-bashing.
I stated several times that this action is frown-upon worthy, though not illegal.
Quote from ljossberir »
While we're here, I suggest we discuss illegal immigration.
So if someone says that the invasion of Iraq was illegal, it doesn't matter... as long the invaders disagreed?
So, you are planning to migrate to Iraq? * puzzle *
Yeas, the attack on Iraq is illegal in Iraq. It might have been the right thing to do for the people there. What bugs me is the false pretenses though. The excuse where nukes/biotech/oblivion stones that just wheren´t there. And what also bugs me is that in reconstructing the country the decision on what countries are allowed to make money of of it is determined by the USA, not the new Iraqi goverment.
Quote from ljossberir »
...and you know this how? Have you been to southern Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California? Or are you just basing your views on some figures in a world atlas?
Atlas of course. And from exerience living in a densely populated country.
Quote from ljossberir »
Whether there is space or not is not important. The fact is that they are violating the law.
I can't justify homicide by saying the world is overpopulated!
There is no spoo... law. Look; I am still frowning. But there is no law against it. And murder, even one sanctioned by law is still murder.
Laws and borders are always a matter of opinion. Law-sanctioned taking of human lives is murder based on an opinion. Opinion as a way to justify human lives is wrong.
Look, if the Mexicans came in guns blazing, with explosives strapped on ´m I would say: Kill or be killed. But trying to reduce casualties is fundamentally a good thing, even if some people feel threatened and insecure.
Arkham, the 1920's. Investigators battle horrors from beyond time and space, risking life and sanity while conspiracies of cultists and malign servitors seek gateways for their outer gods to return...
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Question for Debate:
Did the Mexican Government overstep it boundaries by publishing a pamphlet on how to illegally immigrate to the US, or is just protecting it citizens?
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I must not be understanding the context of all this, because I have a lot of questions. But From what I know currently, I think it's not cool of Mexico to endorse illegally entering a country which is trying to tighten its flow of immigrants. It strikes me as a little disrespectful. "Don't listen to what that country says, now here's how you can go live there without them catching you." It's all so .... odd.
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Absolutely. I can hardly believe this. One of the only areas where George W. has actually earned his title of "compassionate conservative" is the immigration issue. He's been very generous to Mexico thusfar.
Apparently, the Mexican government doesn't think the US has a right to pass laws on immigration. The US is one of the most accommodating (if not the most) when it comes to immigration laws.
Mexicans are fleeing their country by the thousands. This pamphlet gives me the impression that their government favors "dumping" their citizens on us rather than working to improve their living conditions.
I mean, I can't even imagine the number of Mexicans trying to get into the US. They come everday legally. More of them come everyday illegally. The fact is, it's already too easy to live here illegally. The Mexican gov't has enough problems of it's own, it shouldn't be wasting it's time conspiring with it's citizens to violate the laws of another country.
This is one matter I have a rather firm position on. It's a rather unpopular position but that is not my concern.
I believe all known illegal immigrants should be deported immediately. Except in extreme circumstances and in the case that they are fleeing persecution in their former country.
It all boils down to respect. Plenty of people enter the US legally each year. To enter and live in my country illegally, is a sign of disrespect to me. Anyone who enters should do so under the auspices of law. Illegal immigrants do not pay taxes (except perhaps sales tax). Yet the American people pay, in many cases, for their medical bills. We pay for their safety (police, firefighters). We pay for the roads they travel on, the mass transit they use and the maintenance of their freedoms and rights here. If they don't have enough respect for American laws to achieve their status legally, then they aren't worthy of being here.
Uhm, I think by that the definition of citizen and immigrant are contrasting...
We have far too many people in this country right now and I can only assume that the people sneaking in aren't the rocket scientists and bio-chemical engineers of Mexico. I think right now, America is full up on stupid. They're the backbone of much of our labor, but that's only because so much of our country is lazy and ignorant... I dunno where I'm going with this. Pamphlet=bad.
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Truthery.
How did you turn this thread into another "America is dumb" thread? They're the backbone of much of our labor for one reason and one reason alone: Their labor is almost free. They get baid $1 an hour or worse, and are happy. This is illegal. Son't blame the US for it.
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Perhaps America should adopt Mexico's policy for dealing with illegal immigrants coming up from the south.
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There is no point in shooting people for a little piece of land. That is just dumb and silly. I would even call it barbaric.
And if illigal immigration is such a problem; Almost everyone in the US of A is, or has ancestors who where illigal immigrants. The USA is violently stolen from the native americans.
A government of a bloodcountry, that kills without trial is wrong, not a few new settlers that share the believe that everyone should be free in the persuit of happyness.
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What do your propose? That we give the country back to the Native Americans and move back to Europe? I'm sure the French would be glad to put up with 200 million fat, stupid Americans.
I don't care about the debate over border security here, X is illegal and Mexico is publishing things promoting X. Period.
If the US government put out a pamphlet on how to safely build Meth labs, they would not be 'reducing the loss of life' in Meth labs, they would be promoting their creation.
X is illegal in the US. X, appearantly is legal in Mexico. Shooting people is prolly illegal in Mexico, and appearantly legal in the US.
What is the worse crime? Publishing or murder?
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Besides the fact that a crime is still a crime, even if there is a worse one, there is a baser fact. US Law cares about just that, US Law. Save Extradition treaties, US law couldn't really give less of a crap about what's legal or illegal in Mexico. You don't get to promote breaking our laws.
There is no crime. US law couldn´t really give less of a crap about what´s legal or illegal in Mexico, so if promoting breaking US law is legal in Mexico, US law can´t do anything about it. So it isn´t a crime. There is no law against it. So, everyone and his dog can promote breaking US laws, as long as they are not doing that IN the US. Safe for some stupid treaties. But that is another story.[/font]
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Something you may find interesting: The Mexican government shoots illegal immigrants coming up from its southern border on sight. Should America do the same?
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First, I don't buy the "America is a nation of immigrants, so it should let whomever wants to immigrate to do so." Immigration needs to be a two way street in that not only should the immigrant be able to benefit from living in America, America should be able to benefit from the immigrant. It's not in our best interest to allow people in who will not be productive members of society, and that should be the overriding consideration when determining who gets to enter the country.
(I do feel very bad about what happened to the Native Americans. It's a damn shame that "our" ancestors wiped out civilizations that seemed to have a much healthier (i.e. healthier for them and for the planet) approach to life).
That being said, here's where I start feeling internal conflict. To varying degrees, I agree with all of these:
1) Illegal immigrants should be bounced back to their home country, no questions asked. If you want to live here, go through the proper channels.
2) Illegal immigrants do work here that noone else wants to do for the pay offered (in particular, migrant farm labor). If they want to come here to pick lettuce in the hot Texas/SoCal sun for $2/hr, more power to them.
3) #2 is basically slavery, dressed up with a little pay. Slavery is unbecoming a civilized society.
4) Illegal immigrants consume more in social services than they pay in taxes, particularly health care. They drive the price up and drive the quality of care down for people like me who pay for their own health care (either directly or through employer programs) AND pay for Medicaid, etc. In particular, they go to emergency rooms for primary care because hospitals by law cannot turn them away due to inability to pay and often the hospitals won't charge them anyway (see Medicaid and what they charge me/my insurance company).
5) Being tough on immigration is a hallmark of being a conservative. I look forward to being a conservative about as much as I look forward to another episode of ulcerative colitis (basically the inside of your colon looks and feels like it's gone through a meat grinder. It's very painful).
Mexico's endorsement of breaking US immigration law is unacceptable, in any event. It's also an indication of how Mexico feels about its citizens that live in poverty (namely, that it should be the US's problem).
But, to quote West Wing, in an era in which you can build a bomb in your country and bring it into mine, your country is very much my buisness.
Are you saying that even if ALL of Mexico was a completely lawless land, filled with everything anti-American - Whorehouses, legal gambling and murder, drug cartels, daily American flag burnings and... I dunno people who hate Apple Pie. You really think the US Government isn't going to be bothered, in a global era? You really think we have no right to ensure other nations aren't openly pushing for the violation of our own laws?
Beyond that, diplomatic relations don't have to be based on law, and when we are pressing for TIGHTER border security, promoting breaking said security will not get you in the US' good books.
1) Ok, I somewhat agree. It sounds sorta hopefull...and it will prolly help social security issues a bit so, acknowledged.
2) Exactly. Sure, it brings down the price of unschooled labour, but otherwise that labour is going to be fullfilled in another continent, Azia for instance.
3) Well, a minimum wage that makes life survivable, and allows for them chipping in on point 1. Also, it means more consumers, so better economy.
4) So, in your book it is okay for people to die who could be saved, just for the sake of an imaginary line? That is a bit iffy.
5) If I had the choice between a tight colon, or a grinded one, I go for tight. No contest. Sorry
But, to quote West Wing, in an era in which you can build a bomb in your country and bring it into mine, your country is very much my buisness.
Are you saying that even if ALL of Mexico was a completely lawless land, filled with everything anti-American - Whorehouses, legal gambling and murder, drug cartels, daily American flag burnings and... I dunno people who hate Apple Pie. You really think the US Government isn't going to be bothered, in a global era? You really think we have no right to ensure other nations aren't openly pushing for the violation of our own laws?
Beyond that, diplomatic relations don't have to be based on law, and when we are pressing for TIGHTER border security, promoting breaking said security will not get you in the US' good books.
Good! you base your life on a (albeit good) TV show. It is only a problem when they bring the bomb. If I reason like that, the Dutch should invade America soon, just to be sure...
So what if All of Mexico:
- was Lawless? It would be a Liberetarian paradise. Unlike Dutch law, everyone could just own a gun! W00t!
- had Whorehouses everywhere? Why should anyone care how you make money if you aren't really hurting anyone? As long as no-one is doing something against his or her will, why bother stopping supply/demand AND helping to prevent rape as well. Or as a service to handicapped people? I don't see why that should be illegal anyways. It is just sex. I bet your parents had sex...
- had Legal gambling? How can gambling be a problem for responsible citizens anyway? And you said it yourself: Its legal! Yay! Why would someone care how I spend my money? I earned it right?
- had daily flagburnings? Who cares? America sells more flags. I sell you the Dutch flag so you can burn it, no-one really gets hurt by it anyways. It's not like they burn people, or your belongings or anything. It's just a picture on a piece of cloth. If you burn a picture of me, or any flag, I won't be shooting at you for that. That is just stupid.
:guns::rocket: <- Go ahead!
I understand the diplomatic reasons. I understand that promoting this form of immigration is frowned upon. But this promotion is just not illegal for all intent and purpose.
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Promoting the citizens of your country to break the laws of another country may not be an illegal action in and of itself, but it is still wrong. Just because it's not illegal doesn't make it right. Fact is, if people want to immigrate they should do it legally, otherwise they should be bounced back to wherever they came from. Period.
And America has every right to be concerned, Mexico is enticing its citizens to ignore US law and enter the country anyway. In my mind, your business is your business unless it affects me, then it's my business too. Mexico made it America's business when it started promoting the blatant disregard for American law.
I only hope this doesn't lead to America closing its borders to all immigrants from Mexico, legal or otherwise.
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Yes.
I don't know whether it is illegal according to "world laws". What I do know is this: the Mexican government is way out of bounds. They have the right to create (or not create) any particular laws in their homeland. But this pamphlet is a slap in the face. It disputes the right of the US to govern itself and it encourages the violation of laws in foreign lands.
Suppose automatic machine guns are legal in nation X. They are illegal in nation Y. Nation X publishes a pamphlet showing it's citizens how to smuggle these weapons into nation Y and get away with it. Nation X is violating the sovereignty of nation Y by doing so.
No. Shooting people is not legal in the United States. If you're talking about illegal immigrants, in the moment they are crossing the border, it may very well be. But then, it's also legal in Mexico to do that.
The US immigration policy is much more generous than most.
Huh? So then why don't we make theft legal... just because rape is worse?
. It just means there is more cannonfodder to send to Iraq, which helps the oil theft.
Ok, this thread is about illegal immigration. I know you think only the US is capable of commiting any wrongs, but please bear that in mind. Stay on topic.
Your point makes no sense anyway. There is no draft. Illegal immigrants usually come here to start a better life, not to go off to war... so I doubt they'll volunteer either. Furthermore, illegal immigrants live "off the radar". Many of them are not even known to the gov't.
You forgot to mention the glorious freedom fighters in Iraq, led by the kind, wise soul al-Zarqawi... who sees democracy for what it really is: a threat to the freedom of dictators everywhere! :tongue2:
That's kind of ignorant, even if it is a joke.
- Illegal immigrants should be deported to their countries of origin as soon as they are recognized as such by law-enforcement. Immediately. Do not pass go, do not even go to jail. The goverment should not spend on the illegal immigrant any more money than the price of a one-way ticket.
- Shooting is a bit out of order however. I would like to believe America is better than that. The are law-breakers, not enemy combatants, after all.
- What the Mexican government is doing is legal, according to the letter of the law, but way out of line, according to acceptable guidelines of international relations. Basically, they are just begging to get slapped by some kind of US sanction in return. I would like to belive the pamphlet that started it all is was produced by some mid-level guy in some Mexican ministry-of-something-or-other, who simply wasn't thinking clearly and haven't considered the consequences.
Strengthen my steel should I falter
Smite my back should I flee
Save my soul should I fall
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Point 2 and 3 I agree on - mostly. I think that enemy combatants should get a trial too, whenever possible (they get POW'ed for example) - Nothing will vex them more then a country of devils treating them better then the country of God. Way to demoralize!
About point one, I still believe you can't do that to Ireland. America has way more Irish people then fit on the island of Ire. I still believe that americans are basicly illegal immigrants that live on stolen property. So if you take the illegality issue to seriously, the USA ceases to be. And it stops to be the land of the free, opportunity and blatant kapitalism and meritocracy.
And someone else mentioned that Mexico shoots people too. So if Mexico jumps of a bridge...
And world-law... It is only a law if you agreed to it. (That's why -I- want to terraform mars and make it a socialist planet. It's not called "The Red Planet" for nothing right?) - And then there is no law that stops you from changing your mind.
There is plenty of space people. The problems it would cause are on the long run neckledgable. Everything is going to be just fine.
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That's right, the US is stolen property. I say we go back 400 years and return all land to their 'rightful' owners. That would be easy!
You targeted America's position here. Any reasonable person realizes that the Mexican gov't is to fault for this issue. Why you use this thread as a launching pad for your anti-American sentiment is beyond me. There are... (roughly) 5 active threads that are devoted to America-bashing.
While we're here, I suggest we discuss illegal immigration.
So if someone says that the invasion of Iraq was illegal, it doesn't matter... as long the invaders disagreed?
...and you know this how? Have you been to southern Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California? Or are you just basing your views on some figures in a world atlas?
Whether there is space or not is not important. The fact is that they are violating the law.
I can't justify homicide by saying the world is overpopulated!
At the beginning of Bush's first term (or at some point in his first term, the date is hard to remember), I recall the Mexican president asking Bush to take a "challenge." What was the challenge?
Legalize the illegal immigrants.
This reminds me of a class discussion I had in my government class in my junior year of high school. The teacher asked us about the borders. Everyone started screaming "We need to shut them down!"
I sighed and slowly raised my hand. Then responded, "That's great. We shut them down. But, what stops those people from trying to get in?"
The class fell silent.
We have a country that gives chances to nearly everyone. We take it for advantage or we don't try. I'm not agreeing with the Mexican government, but I think those people that want to come here deserve a shot.
Since basing your views on TV-shows is a legit thing to do I quote something I heard being said somewheres: "The thing that is the hardest thing to do is quite often also the right thing."
That said, I don´t wanna reverse 400 years of injustice. I just want to point out that "legal" and "the right thing" sometimes clashes. And that the Mexicans basicly have just as much right of being there as the rest.
I stated several times that this action is frown-upon worthy, though not illegal.
So, you are planning to migrate to Iraq? * puzzle *
Yeas, the attack on Iraq is illegal in Iraq. It might have been the right thing to do for the people there. What bugs me is the false pretenses though. The excuse where nukes/biotech/oblivion stones that just wheren´t there. And what also bugs me is that in reconstructing the country the decision on what countries are allowed to make money of of it is determined by the USA, not the new Iraqi goverment.
Atlas of course. And from exerience living in a densely populated country.
There is no spoo... law. Look; I am still frowning. But there is no law against it. And murder, even one sanctioned by law is still murder.
Laws and borders are always a matter of opinion. Law-sanctioned taking of human lives is murder based on an opinion. Opinion as a way to justify human lives is wrong.
Look, if the Mexicans came in guns blazing, with explosives strapped on ´m I would say: Kill or be killed. But trying to reduce casualties is fundamentally a good thing, even if some people feel threatened and insecure.
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