This thread is for the discussion of -spooky-'s latest article, Squandered Resources: Lands Are For Losers. Due to technical issues the thread that is normally created when an article is published didn't occur, so I have created this thread to allow you to talk about it. As always, please keep your comments on topic.
Speaking from the viewpoint of a Dredge noob and a first-time reader, is there any reason the landless Dredge deck doesn't use Lion's Eye Diamond? It seems like a deck that would dearly love to discard its hand for free.
Well, if you are looking at discarding your hand for free then Phantasmagorian does just that. There is no reason to play a LED, which can be countered, when you can use an uncounterable discard source. Landless dredge doesn't need the mana either. Keep in mind Gory can respond to his own discard ability multiple times, so you can literally discard you hand with one copy of him.
You can only discard your hand for free with one Phantasmagorian if your hand has a multiple of three cards in it. The countering part is a good point though.
If the sole purpose of Terastodon etc as sideboard possibilites is to be reanimated to blow stuff up, wouldn't Angel of Despair be better? The deck has no real interaction with green cards and DOES have interactions with black creatures.
True enough, that is usually all you need to do though. It is pretty rare that you ever have the one or two cards in your hand and you can't find a way to get it in the yard. Eventually the dredgers going back to your hand will get it into the yard one way or another.
Angel of Despair is a great option that I simply forgot to mention. Some people play terastodon in place of her because he can hit multiple permanents, but she is a fine option as well.
Speaking from the viewpoint of a Dredge noob and a first-time reader, is there any reason the landless Dredge deck doesn't use Lion's Eye Diamond? It seems like a deck that would dearly love to discard its hand for free.
You probably forgot that this series' name is Squandered Resources.
It's about affordable decks...
and Lion's Eye Diamond at 45€+ is probably not the right way to keep the cost around 200...
You probably forgot that this series' name is Squandered Resources.
It's about affordable decks...
and Lion's Eye Diamond at 45€+ is probably not the right way to keep the cost around 200...
I mean, there is that too. The deck also doesn't need it though.
My biggest fear is how Leyline just absolutely shuts down that entire deck.
I was gonna build 4-land dredge but never found my way out of it.
Also opponent's targeted discard also is problematic for this version.
I'm far more interested in the Oops, all spells. Which resemble the boo berry combos of earlier articles
Just putting my pennies away hehe.
My biggest fear is how Leyline just absolutely shuts down that entire deck.
I was gonna build 4-land dredge but never found my way out of it.
Also opponent's targeted discard also is problematic for this version.
I'm far more interested in the Oops, all spells. Which resemble the boo berry combos of earlier articles
Just putting my pennies away hehe.
Leyline is an issue, but no one plays the card. Look at the top 16 of the last SCG open. Not a single leyline of the void. Manaless dredge is a deck that you take to a meta that is not expecting it. You blow everyone out and then wait a few weeks for the heat to cool off. After people stop bringing graveyard hate you bring back manaless. rinse repeat.
So assuming you mill your entire library with Balustrade Spy, you will have to kill the oppponent right there, as Dredge won't work if you don't have enough cards in you library.
I am assuming this is done using Flayer of the Hatebound to some degree. Could you explain the steps you are doing to go for the kill at that point?
Dread Return Spy--> Bring all remaining Narcomoebas into play.
Dread Return Flayer
Dread Return Golgari Grave Troll for lots of damage.
You can even use a Cabal therapy with Flayer to do more damage
And if this is still not enough, you can return your Ichorids and Nether Shadow in your next upkeep for more damage.
Beat me to it! Lol, yes this is all correct. If you add the 4 damage from flayer to the (3x4 = 12) of the ichorids and the 4 of the shadows (given by flayer) you get exactly 20 as well. So the upkeep kill is actually pretty solid as well.
not really if you run Seething Song and Increasing Vengence for a small five mana investment you end up with fifteen mana from two cards of course it's more consistant to just storm out with empty the warrens than to win with the belcher itself but there you go
Fork style cards have long been known to be sub par. It might work for you, but I would never suggest Increasing Vengeance and company unless it was part of a 2 card kill combo. :/
im going to try landless dredge just for jokes
"let me look at your deck...(10 mins later) wait what? no lands? how do you play this deck?"
proceed to winning/doing something awesome
I haven't actually played Landless Dredge at an event yet but I've put the entire deck together and checked the Primer for sideboard ideas. The main deck can be gotten for even less then the article says. I got everything at TCGplayer for $90 which includes shipping. I had to drop a little more to get there rest of the sideboard.
I've been gold fishing this for a little now and want to try it on a real player soon. I didn't even think of the upkeep kill, that's just brilliant.
BTW, what do you consider the four flex slots to be? You mention Chancellor of the Annex which is three of them, but it's not clear what the other one is. You mention Sickening Shoal but it's not in the main deck list. I was thinking one Phantasmagorian could be a flex or maybe one of the Nether Shadows.
Yeah, as far as price goes I mention what TCG player puts at a mid price because I think it is more realistic as far as people buying from brick and mortar stores or from friends. If you can get to cheaper than more power to you!
the 4 flex slots in my list are taken up by the 3 Chancellor of the Annex and an extra Balustrade Spy. Most people play 3 of him, but I figure he wins you the game on the spot, may as well maximize our chances of finding him.
I'm fairly new to the game ( began in Ravnica, dropped out before Eldrazi, and just now returning) and the concept of a landless deck is not one I would ever have conceived on my own.
This looks to be good in some other format than standard, however. I dont really have enough old cards to play extended or EDH or anything like that. Could the general scheme of these decks be reproduced in the next set or is this just for extended formats?
I'm fairly new to the game ( began in Ravnica, dropped out before Eldrazi, and just now returning) and the concept of a landless deck is not one I would ever have conceived on my own.
This looks to be good in some other format than standard, however. I dont really have enough old cards to play extended or EDH or anything like that. Could the general scheme of these decks be reproduced in the next set or is this just for extended formats?
Oh this is strictly for Legacy and possibly Vintage. Any other format probably does not contain near enough cards to attempt something like this.
Oh this is strictly for Legacy and possibly Vintage. Any other format probably does not contain near enough cards to attempt something like this.
Ok, thanks for the prompt answer. Legacy sounds fun based on what a few people I play with say, but it also sounds like a format you won't do well in without a ton of disposable income.
Ok, thanks for the prompt answer. Legacy sounds fun based on what a few people I play with say, but it also sounds like a format you won't do well in without a ton of disposable income.
I'll keep this deck in mind, though.
The "disposable income" idea is where my article series came from. Everything I write about has a good amount of power behind it despite its price tag. Less money for more power is what this series is all about.
As far as Oops All Spells goes, I find that Phantasmagorian is a must as a one of. Lists I've tried either run a 4 of Lion's Eye Diamond, which is both costly and clumsy because the three it produces usually is just held off to be 1 for the Informer trigger and the other two are relatively pointless (though I guess they don't hurt to have on hand in the event of a Spell Pierce in the waiting).
That being said, I feel like Phantasmagorian does the trick a lot better in terms of discarding from your hand. Your article seems thorough but you don't really address what happens when you draw combo pieces in this deck. If you just so happen to draw, say, an Angel of Glory's Rise, Laboratory Maniac and/or Azami, Lady of Scrolls, you would have to scoop if you had no out to discard them.
To make room for this, since the slots are very precious, I would recommend dropping a Chrome Mox. Just as Chrome Mox screams free mana, it also costs you a card in hand which is very necessary. I don't run any in my current build and I don't really miss it. At best it can provide you with another green mana off of Chancellor of the Tangle (which I'm surprised to not see in your list) or Chancellor of the Annex (which is more of a SB option to me).
Ultimately, what this deck needs for fuel is to be increasing the mana count, as most combo decks desire. You want to get more out of something than you're putting in. I tend to run Tinder Wall over Chrome Mox because G becomes RR, and Chancellor of the Tangle often demands you win that very turn to take advantage of the mana he provides. But a Tinder Wall and/or Wild Cantor can hold his mana till your next turn if you kept an iffy start and wanted to wait another turn. This can be fairly crucial. In this case, instead of exiling a card from your hand to produce an off color (again, I say off color because most of your other exiling targets are key cards and rituals, so you won't be pitching them for 1 mana of their color), now you can have an extra mana and a card in hand, which can later feed Phantasmagorian.
These concessions to your list are not expensive (in fact, you save the money on those four Chome Moxen for Tinder Walls and a Phantasmagorian and turn your Chancellor of the Annex, moving it to the SB, for a Chancellor of the Tangle). I also feel they help grease the deck more positively. They encourage a faster turn one kill as well as give you a fallback found in Phantasmagorian if you happen to unluckily draw a combo piece.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BInfect BWDeath & Taxes UBRAffinity
RBurn UBRSac Land Tendrils UBRGOops, All Spells
WUGPhelddagrif GGGOmnath, Locus of Mana BBBXiahou Dun, the One-Eyed RRRAshling, the Pilgrim BBWTeysa, Scion of Orzhov UUUTalrand, Sky Summoner UUBVela the Night-Clad GGBVhati il-Dal RUWRuhan of the Fomori
The only problem I have with your suggestions is tinder wall. Tinder wall, and every "ritual" in the deck nets you mana sure, but the mana that you need to cast it must come from somewhere. I really don't think this deck can function well without chrome mox because it wouldn't have enough initial mana. You wouldnt be able to start chains as often as you otherwise could because your opening hands would contain "rituals" but no way to cast them.
Landless dredge is fun it's super fun despite the fact it's not a T1 kill like the others; you can always switch the wincons and the chanellors so that you have different win cons.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Well, if you are looking at discarding your hand for free then Phantasmagorian does just that. There is no reason to play a LED, which can be countered, when you can use an uncounterable discard source. Landless dredge doesn't need the mana either. Keep in mind Gory can respond to his own discard ability multiple times, so you can literally discard you hand with one copy of him.
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True enough, that is usually all you need to do though. It is pretty rare that you ever have the one or two cards in your hand and you can't find a way to get it in the yard. Eventually the dredgers going back to your hand will get it into the yard one way or another.
Angel of Despair is a great option that I simply forgot to mention. Some people play terastodon in place of her because he can hit multiple permanents, but she is a fine option as well.
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You probably forgot that this series' name is Squandered Resources.
It's about affordable decks...
and Lion's Eye Diamond at 45€+ is probably not the right way to keep the cost around 200...
Cockatrice is still going strong over at http://www.woogerworks.com[/B]
Ghostly Battlefield
The Winner is Judge [2]
Chasay, Caller of Fire
Skaab Corpse Looter
[B]This Winner is also Judge [0]
I mean, there is that too. The deck also doesn't need it though.
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I was gonna build 4-land dredge but never found my way out of it.
Also opponent's targeted discard also is problematic for this version.
I'm far more interested in the Oops, all spells. Which resemble the boo berry combos of earlier articles
Just putting my pennies away hehe.
Leyline is an issue, but no one plays the card. Look at the top 16 of the last SCG open. Not a single leyline of the void. Manaless dredge is a deck that you take to a meta that is not expecting it. You blow everyone out and then wait a few weeks for the heat to cool off. After people stop bringing graveyard hate you bring back manaless. rinse repeat.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
I am assuming this is done using Flayer of the Hatebound to some degree. Could you explain the steps you are doing to go for the kill at that point?
Beat me to it! Lol, yes this is all correct. If you add the 4 damage from flayer to the (3x4 = 12) of the ichorids and the 4 of the shadows (given by flayer) you get exactly 20 as well. So the upkeep kill is actually pretty solid as well.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
Thanks. landless Belcher would have required LED I think, so that's a bit of a stretch.
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Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
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Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
"let me look at your deck...(10 mins later) wait what? no lands? how do you play this deck?"
proceed to winning/doing something awesome
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
I've been gold fishing this for a little now and want to try it on a real player soon. I didn't even think of the upkeep kill, that's just brilliant.
BTW, what do you consider the four flex slots to be? You mention Chancellor of the Annex which is three of them, but it's not clear what the other one is. You mention Sickening Shoal but it's not in the main deck list. I was thinking one Phantasmagorian could be a flex or maybe one of the Nether Shadows.
| U Merfolk | UR Delver Burn| B Reanimator| B Landless Dredge |
the 4 flex slots in my list are taken up by the 3 Chancellor of the Annex and an extra Balustrade Spy. Most people play 3 of him, but I figure he wins you the game on the spot, may as well maximize our chances of finding him.
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Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
This looks to be good in some other format than standard, however. I dont really have enough old cards to play extended or EDH or anything like that. Could the general scheme of these decks be reproduced in the next set or is this just for extended formats?
Oh this is strictly for Legacy and possibly Vintage. Any other format probably does not contain near enough cards to attempt something like this.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
Ok, thanks for the prompt answer. Legacy sounds fun based on what a few people I play with say, but it also sounds like a format you won't do well in without a ton of disposable income.
I'll keep this deck in mind, though.
The "disposable income" idea is where my article series came from. Everything I write about has a good amount of power behind it despite its price tag. Less money for more power is what this series is all about.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
That being said, I feel like Phantasmagorian does the trick a lot better in terms of discarding from your hand. Your article seems thorough but you don't really address what happens when you draw combo pieces in this deck. If you just so happen to draw, say, an Angel of Glory's Rise, Laboratory Maniac and/or Azami, Lady of Scrolls, you would have to scoop if you had no out to discard them.
To make room for this, since the slots are very precious, I would recommend dropping a Chrome Mox. Just as Chrome Mox screams free mana, it also costs you a card in hand which is very necessary. I don't run any in my current build and I don't really miss it. At best it can provide you with another green mana off of Chancellor of the Tangle (which I'm surprised to not see in your list) or Chancellor of the Annex (which is more of a SB option to me).
Ultimately, what this deck needs for fuel is to be increasing the mana count, as most combo decks desire. You want to get more out of something than you're putting in. I tend to run Tinder Wall over Chrome Mox because G becomes RR, and Chancellor of the Tangle often demands you win that very turn to take advantage of the mana he provides. But a Tinder Wall and/or Wild Cantor can hold his mana till your next turn if you kept an iffy start and wanted to wait another turn. This can be fairly crucial. In this case, instead of exiling a card from your hand to produce an off color (again, I say off color because most of your other exiling targets are key cards and rituals, so you won't be pitching them for 1 mana of their color), now you can have an extra mana and a card in hand, which can later feed Phantasmagorian.
These concessions to your list are not expensive (in fact, you save the money on those four Chome Moxen for Tinder Walls and a Phantasmagorian and turn your Chancellor of the Annex, moving it to the SB, for a Chancellor of the Tangle). I also feel they help grease the deck more positively. They encourage a faster turn one kill as well as give you a fallback found in Phantasmagorian if you happen to unluckily draw a combo piece.
B Infect
BW Death & Taxes
UBR Affinity
R Burn
UBR Sac Land Tendrils
UBRG Oops, All Spells
WUG Phelddagrif
GGG Omnath, Locus of Mana
BBB Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
RRR Ashling, the Pilgrim
BBW Teysa, Scion of Orzhov
UUU Talrand, Sky Summoner
UUB Vela the Night-Clad
GGB Vhati il-Dal
RUW Ruhan of the Fomori
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Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
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Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.