Many people post about how Sol Ring isn't a big deal. It sometimes gets cast turn one, maybe has an effect, but it hardly ever happens. Those people usually only post once or twice, then are done with the thread and on with their lives. Another camp is aware of just how strong a card Sol Ring is. They advocate for the brokenness, and insist that if I can't handle it, it's because my deck sucks, I'm a bad player, and I should go cry to my mommy.
This is what I was talking about in my previous post. In a casual playgroup, overpowered cards aren't a big deal because the decks aren't streamlined. I would argue that the banned list isn't aimed at them. If little Timmy got a mox for his birthday, his buddies are probably going to let him play with it, and it will be exciting. They've probably never seen one before!
The banned list is aimed at players with a little bit too much Spike in them. Like billythefridge, who likes to brag about his $200+black bordered foreign altered signed Sol Ring and point out that my decks suck. (Ok, you can beat my casual deck; it's at the appropriate power level to be fun in my casual playgroup.)
In fact, banned lists in any format are by nature aimed at Spikes. They're the ones who are in it to win. Spike is the guy who streamlines the decks to the point where Sol Ring is a problem. I'm not saying Spikes are bad people, or even that they shouldn't play Commander. I'm saying that it's pretty clear that the banned list exists as an effort to get them to play nice, and to that end Sol Ring belongs on it.
I've been reading this thread since it started and I am amazed at how divided players are. It's pretty obvious that no one is willing to budge from their opinion. For the record, I love Sol Ring and think it absolutely has a place within EDH.
I've never had an issue with Sol Ring during my entire life of playing Magic. If one comes out while we are playing EDH (or our own Legacy/Vintage hybrid), no one complains because it's part of the game. It's not a card that's unfun to play against, even though it gives your opponent an advantage.
Within EDH there are far more sinister things that one could argue to be banned. For example, playing against a Zur, the Enchanter deck is the most unfun thing I have done (and the versions I've played against don't even run Sol Ring) or other decks that contain infinite combos, such as ones that kill every creature on the board and prevent any others to be played. Take a poll of players and I bet you would find more people have a problem with situations like this than when someone plays a first turn Sol Ring.
On a side note...
Like billythefridge, who likes to brag about his $200+ black bordered foreign altered signed Sol Ring...
Many people post about how Sol Ring isn't a big deal. It sometimes gets cast turn one, maybe has an effect, but it hardly ever happens. Those people usually only post once or twice, then are done with the thread and on with their lives. Another camp is aware of just how strong a card Sol Ring is. They advocate for the brokenness, and insist that if I can't handle it, it's because my deck sucks, I'm a bad player, and I should go cry to my mommy.
Sol Ring is a powerful card. No one is disputing that. However, you are basing your judgments and arguments off of drawing not only Sol Ring in your opening hand or your top deck, but also any combo pieces needed at the same time.
Sol Ring is limited in Vintage. That means in a 60-card minimum deck, you have one. Many of the pieces that it helps combo can be found as four-ofs in most decks running them. Assuming your opening hand, you have 92 other cards that can be drawn (1 General, 6 cards, 1 Sol Ring makes 8. 100 - 8 = 92). On top of that, you need the cards, as I have said, that combos off of it. The chance of drawing everything needed in the first 8 cards is very, very rare.
Once again, you're grasping at straws. It may be banned in the French Ban List, but that is not the official Commander banlist. Commander is not a 1v1 format. It is designed to be a multiplayer format, and in many cases if Sol Ring is such a big threat, you drop it and you can almost certainly guarantee that you'll be ganged up on.
This is what I was talking about in my previous post. In a casual playgroup, overpowered cards aren't a big deal because the decks aren't streamlined. I would argue that the banned list isn't aimed at them. If little Timmy got a mox for his birthday, his buddies are probably going to let him play with it, and it will be exciting. They've probably never seen one before!
Commander is a casual, non-sanctioned format. I don't think you get this.
The banned list is aimed at players with a little bit too much Spike in them. Like billythefridge, who likes to brag about his $200+black bordered foreign altered signed Sol Ring and point out that my decks suck. (Ok, you can beat my casual deck; it's at the appropriate power level to be fun in my casual playgroup.)
If Sol Ring becomes that much of an issue, then it will most certainly be banned. However, as has been pointed out, there is one in a 99 card deck. That makes the odds of drawing it much lower than in a 60 card deck.
In fact, banned lists in any format are by nature aimed at Spikes. They're the ones who are in it to win. Spike is the guy who streamlines the decks to the point where Sol Ring is a problem. I'm not saying Spikes are bad people, or even that they shouldn't play Commander. I'm saying that it's pretty clear that the banned list exists as an effort to get them to play nice, and to that end Sol Ring belongs on it.
By that logic, any General capable of making the format "unfair" or "not fun deserves to be banned.
Karador should be banned, because he makes things come back.
Wort should be banned, because she makes things come back.
Glissa should be banned, because she instantly kills things in combat.
I can make this list go on and on. But I won't. Sol Ring is not to the point of a Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Caw-Blade. It never will be. until such time as they make a turn 2 win condition that is easily obtainable and is consistent, it won't be banned, nor should it be.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
Wy is it that, rather than resopnd to points, you attempt to make an analogy where the person is just upset about losing to sol ring?
The major criteria for banning a card is if it warps games. Sol ring does that. It warps games so hard that, unless the table focuses on the person immediately, they stand little to no chance. This is, of course, that the person playing the sol ring actually built a good deck. Just because you can have a non-degerate use for a card, doen't mean the card is not degenerate.
I find it so, so hard to believe that your reading skills are that poor. It has been hammered over and over in this thread that this is just not true.
Here are the three criteria for banning a card in EDH (again, for those of you who apparently didn't see it the first time):
Those of us who work to keep EDH coherent and playable work by consensus, but we have a few guidelines that we use when it comes to banning cards. Someone pointed out that the three criteria against which cards have come to be judged for banning aren't clearly published anywhere, so I'll post and sticky this for reference. This is primarily my opinion, but reflects a reasonable description of the commonly applied thought process.
For a card to be considered for banning (or kept banned), it should be causing problems in EDH games due to one of three things:
Its power level in multiplayer EDH is signficantly higher than both what's expected for its mana cost AND it's power level in other formats (due to different rules or game sizes). [Examples include Panoptic Mirror and Biorythm]
it's dollar cost is prohibitive for most players and the card usually detracts from the playing experience of everyone in the game [The Power 8].
it belogs to a class of cards which can't be consistantly interpreted by all players [Silver bordered cards, dexterity cards]
The first criteria is the most commonly applied and as such a little more complex than the others. The purpose is to ban cards which are made "excessively more powerful" by the format-specific rules of EDH. While some cards are naturally undercosted in every format (Lightning Bolt, Time Spiral), they aren't made _worse_ by EDH. [Lightning bolt is unlikely to actually cause problems anyway, so it wouldn't even make it that far] (emphasis added)
An additional principal which is commonly referenced is the ease with which a card can be answered. This is somewhat related to criteria #1, in that the size and singleton nature of the format makes answers harder to come by consistently. Keeping answers onhand, lest the game end suddenly, detracts from the interplay and variety of the format so it's considered a strike against the power level of a card if it's "answer this or lose now". Creatures are something of an exception here, as creature removal is far more prevalent, common, and flexible. The fact that answers exist to be tutored up is not a mitigating factor though... the question is whether those answers are commonly applicable or must be "forced" into an anotherwise healthy metagame.
Note that "very irritating" or "ubiquitous" aren't expressly listed there... they can act as red flags or tipping points, but alone aren't sufficient for a card to be voted down. (emphasis added)
Let's see here, does Sol Ring meet these criteria?
Its power level in multiplayer EDH is signficantly higher than both what's expected for its mana cost AND it's power level in other formats (due to different rules or game sizes). [Examples include Panoptic Mirror and Biorythm]
Well, it's stronger than a one-drop typically is, but it isn't made stronger by making the jump to EDH, and is actually weaker than it is in Vintage due to the bigger deck size and overall higher casting cost of most cards. So nope, no match there.
it's dollar cost is prohibitive for most players and the card usually detracts from the playing experience of everyone in the game [The Power 8].
Sol Ring from the Commander set is around $5, and around $10 for Revised, so nope.
it belogs to a class of cards which can't be consistantly interpreted by all players [Silver bordered cards, dexterity cards]
It makes mana. You'd be pretty hard-pressed to find someone dumb enough not to understand what a Sol Ring does.
I'm going to assume you people know how to read, so any further argument that things are banned in EDH for being "broken" (whatever that means in the context of the format) shall be regarded as admission that you are illiterate.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
If you have read the entire thread, you would know that this has already been addressed.
Moxes are banned because they are too expensive and should go in every deck, creating an unfair barrier to entry for most players, not because they are too overpowered. If they had continued to be printed past Unlimited and were readily available, you can bet they would be legal in EDH.
Basically, if moxes were legal, the mental process of the new player would go like this, "****! I need moxes to play this format!"
Whereas without them, they go, "Cool! I get to play Sol Ring in this format!"
Don't all the "politics" arguments in defense of Sol Ring's impact on the game apply several times over with regard to Moxes? The person playing those would be painting a target on themselves far beyond that which a Sol Ring does (even though their impact on the game state is similar) purely based on their dollar value. In EDH, it's not the power of the individual cards but the way the overall deck. If we're working from the principle that shunning players with degenerate decks is an acceptable and effective practice, then there's no point to a Banned list at all.
Overall enjoyment of EDH, including not being shunned, is a balancing act between the amount of acceleration being played, what is able to be played (earlier) thanks to that acceleration, playing a deck which interacts with others, and creates enjoyable scenarios. Nothing intrinsically wrong with the Moxes, it merely requires you to cut down on the power level of your threats and making your deck that much more interesting to compensate.
Don't all the "politics" arguments in defense of Sol Ring's impact on the game apply several times over with regard to Moxes? The person playing those would be painting a target on themselves far beyond that which a Sol Ring does (even though their impact on the game state is similar) purely based on their dollar value. In EDH, it's not the power of the individual cards but the way the overall deck. If we're working from the principle that shunning players with degenerate decks is an acceptable and effective practice, then there's no point to a Banned list at all.
Overall enjoyment of EDH, including not being shunned, is a balancing act between the amount of acceleration being played, what is able to be played (earlier) thanks to that acceleration, playing a deck which interacts with others, and creates enjoyable scenarios. Nothing intrinsically wrong with the Moxes, it merely requires you to cut down on the power level of your threats and making your deck that much more interesting to compensate.
That's fine and dandy in a playgroup of your friends. If you know the people, by all means let them play their moxes. But in a group of strangers, it is disparaging to see a guy play a 5c goodstuff deck worth thousands of dollars with the full mox suite while everyone else can only afford Sol Ring.
There is a stark difference between political tension caused by someone getting ahead in the game very early with a card that is readily available to everyone and tension caused when someone plays a card that most people will never be able to afford.
Yes, they are on a similar power level, but in streamlined decks, it gives an extremely unfair advantage to the people that can afford moxes, and in non-streamlined decks it still creates negative tension due to jealousy. And that's the problem. It doesn't matter what else is in your deck, because just the sight of a Mox causes a negative reaction. With Sol Ring, the psychological impact is minimal. Most people will think, "What a lucky draw," and deal with it. But with Moxes, most people wil go, "That's not fair. I can never afford cards like that." That is overall an unhealthy thing for the format, so it's better just to ban them due to the negative stigma attached.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
I'm going to assume you people know how to read, so any further argument that things are banned in EDH for being "broken" (whatever that means in the context of the format) shall be regarded as admission that you are illiterate.
Let's just end this all here and now. Audiox has summed it all up. If balanced edh is actually of interest to people... Play EDH with cards from the Modern format and use its banlist, just start playing it like a format and if anyone actually likes it then it will catch on. It won't, because that is not what EDH is about.
OP has stated the banlist is to keep spikes in line and in some ways it is, but it is to take away the crowning jewels not their power tools. The game is healthy that way and everyone gets to use those power tools we love so much.
Don't all the "politics" arguments in defense of Sol Ring's impact on the game apply several times over with regard to Moxes?
Actually I think it does. If you know person A is playing bad-ass Mox deck (or after one turn you'll find out pretty fast). If they are 2-3 turns ahead of you on mana, it's still going to be hard playing 3 on 1. I'd like some people to try it actually... play a 3 on 1 commander but put yourself up 3 mana and down 3 cards (that represent the mana ramp) to start the game.
Like someone pointed out already, I think the point of banning those cards is so that people don't feel like you have to have those cards to be competitive.
The person playing those would be painting a target on themselves far beyond that which a Sol Ring does (even though their impact on the game state is similar) purely based on their dollar value. In EDH, it's not the power of the individual cards but the way the overall deck. If we're working from the principle that shunning players with degenerate decks is an acceptable and effective practice, then there's no point to a Banned list at all.
Politics doesn't solve everything. Cards that are part of degenerate combos that can kill multiple players in a single turn. Those are things that need to be banned. I don't have the banned list in front of me, but I imagine a lot of the cards that are banned are powerful tutors like Gift's Ungiven that allow for consistent game states or stuff like Necro that just provides powerful card advantage even if they have an answer to it.
You listed a lot of points but, staggeringly in my opinion, you completely overlooked the most important one:
...What other format, precisely, can one PLAY Sol Rings in?
Vintage: restricted. does anyone even play this format any more? My mental picture of Vintage is a couple guys sitting around with binders and wondering why there's no one else who can afford to play with them. That, and the sound of crickets.
Legacy, Modern, Extended, Standard, Pauper, Peasant, basically you name it other than EDH: Banned.
So really you're just saying you want to turn a mostly-useless piece of cardboard into an entirely-useless piece of cardboard. Just because some people get whiney about someone going t1 sol ring, signet, go.
That happens occasionally in my playgroup. Know what the response is? It's called politics. If one person jumps out to too fast a lead, you gang up on him and beat him down until he either starts to play less provocatively, or loses enough permanents that he's no longer the front-runner. This is why EDH pods of 4-5 are best, as they allow coalitions of all opponents to be so strong when combined that if you get really douchey, you can generally be reined in. There's no call to ban a format staple over this. Especially when it's the only format where we can put the damned thing to any use.
You are right about it being banned in every "sanctioned" format. However, remember, Commander has a large number of cards that you can't play in any other format. They are Commander only cards such as some of the dragons, the vow cards, Minds Aglow and the other cards that let each player tap mana for a nice effect, etc. So, this argument you have made is rather not really that relevant. Commander is a non sanctioned format that uses a slightly different set of rules and has a banned list.
Secondly, the article fails to mention the SEVERAL other cards OTHER than mental misstep that can be used by a player on their turn one. For instance, there is Crush, Oxidize, Ingot Chewer, Crumble, Shattering Spree, and that's just the one mana ways of getting rid of it.
I have played Commander for a few months now, have seen Sol Rings in almost every deck. I still don't think it needs to be banned. Why? Because you don't win just from playing Sol Ring. One might respond by saying, but it gives you a big mana advantage, so why not ban it? Well, I think there are better cards out there to ban. Apparently, the author has never played against degenerate Riku decks. The very fact that almost every single Riku deck I see is a degenerate infinite turn deck using Mana Reflection, Primeval Titan, Vorinclex, and Boseiju(to make sure the kill card cannot be countered) tells me that it is a bigger issue than Sol Ring right about now.
Seriously I can't understand the argument for banning sol ring, in what is supposedly a casual/multiplayer format. If somebody is abusing any card then the other players just need to tell them to stop, thats what usually happens in my casual groups.
I don't want to see EDH/Commander become ANOTHER competitive format and these Banning articles/posts just seem to push the format in that direction.
Anyone doing the maths for EDH games is playing the wrong format imho
In my opinion, the article was horribly constructed. Many players have made far better points as to why it should be banned, and many players have also made far better reasons as to why it shouldn't be banned than what was presented in the article. Essentially, the author used the arguments against his claims that he could refute with semi-logical counterarguments, but left out a lot of others as to why it shouldn't be banned.
And I disagree with the math portion. When you deal with someone like this, you need to come at them with facts, and that includes math. Sometimes you even need to make pretty graphs and charts so they shut up for a few seconds.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
I think the author overestimates the importance of balance. Balance is a strange thing in games. At one hand, you need a certain amount of it, but if a game becomes too balanced, it's getting boring and predictable.
Sol Ring is there so you can live the dream one in ten games. And you draw attention for doing so. It helps to randomly shift the balance around once in a while. Magic has some random elements, because a little randomness adds to the fun. This is especially true for a singleton format like EDH.
Cards aren't all made equal. This isn't a design flaw or a problem. This is what makes the game exciting.
Arkham, the 1920's. Investigators battle horrors from beyond time and space, risking life and sanity while conspiracies of cultists and malign servitors seek gateways for their outer gods to return...
Soon, the stars will be right! Great Cthulhu shall rise!
Many people post about how Sol Ring isn't a big deal. It sometimes gets cast turn one, maybe has an effect, but it hardly ever happens. Those people usually only post once or twice, then are done with the thread and on with their lives. Another camp is aware of just how strong a card Sol Ring is.
You're leaving out some of us minor posters who are aware of how powerful it is, but think the events you call bad for the game are actually good for the game. You haven't shown Sol Ring is bad for EDH, you've just shown that you don't like what it does.
Early fattie? Good game event.
Early game warping effect? Good game event.
Randomly skewed politics? Good game event.
Early game ending combo? Good game event. (Occasionally, I wouldn't want to see it every game. See the Kokusho bit below.)
From my EDH experience through multiple cities with playgroups of friends and/or strangers alike, Sol Ring is actually doing the opposite of causing problems; it is creating fun and memorable game states.
Sol Ring is neutral in and of itself. It is a tool that lets us play out Verdant Force early, or put a little extra juice into Brightflame. The EDH ban list should not stop us from doing those things, instead it should allow us access to tools like Sol Ring to facilitate those big plays. The cards we ban should be the powerful effects which consistently win via minimal interaction. What did every early Kokusho deck do? Recursive combo. Every Kokusho deck aimed to do a really cool (but not particularly fun) thing every single game. Every game. All night. It went against the spirit of the format, it purposely circumvented interaction in the same way, every game. That's cool in a Legacy deck. But not so in a deck meant to embrace powerful, sweeping, brutal, exciting effects, and swing those into a wave of like effects from your opponents. EDH should have decks capable of randomly comboing out, the problem lies in the player if the deck is designed to do so every game.
I've only ever said that we should CONSIDER the banning of the card. Its become a staple card. Even if the deckchange is OUT: 1 random land IN: Sol Ring, you're making a generic improvement on most decks (unless your deck is oddly focused. Then land away my friend).
I'll put to bed this argument against banning it: "If you draw it late game, its useless"
- "Big mana" effects aren't banned because they ruin games on turn 15. They're banned because they have the ability to end a game well before other players have the ability to get online.
Aside from that, I think I've seen enough "outcry" that I'm really done arguing the point. It was worth a consideration - and there has been a lot of evidence pointing that Sol Ring shouldn't be banned.
So what should be? - Since, you know, everyone who has scoffed at the idea has said "There are X other cards that should be banned WAAAY before Sol Ring gets banned..." I want to hear them, because now I'm curious.
Also: Might I point out that "banning" someone's decklist is likely NOT the best route to take. My playgroup (who make ALL of our focus on having FUN with the format, not cracking its spine like Bane on Batman...) has adopted the following rule:
1. If you "go infinite" or combo out and defeat all the players or develop a "hard lock" that no one can get out of. Congratulations: You win. You may collect your deck and head home. The rest of us will continue playing as though you had just left the game.
and
2. We do NOT play "grief" cards - Erayo // Arcane Lab combo, Mind Twist, or other fine things.
3. If the aforementioned combo is RIDICULOUS and takes more than 4 cards to put together, or is comprised of a stolen card or is otherwise unintentionally interacting with another card on the field not under your control - you actually win.
I'll put to bed this argument against banning it: "If you draw it late game, its useless"
- "Big mana" effects aren't banned because they ruin games on turn 15. They're banned because they have the ability to end a game well before other players have the ability to get online.
The argument that it's useless lategame is really the argument that because the card is restricted and only really valuable if you draw it in your opening hand... it's only powerful less than a 10th of the time.
There are decks in standard formats (maybe not the CURRENT standard format, but in the past) that can win the game on turn 3 or 4, so the potential for a "fast start" has NEVER been a reason to ban a card. The reason they've never banned cards that can do this is because usually there's like a 10% chance or less for someone to get the "God Hand" and basically auto-win. Sure, 1 out of every 10 games you get off to a ridiculous start and you win the game... but that's going to happen.
Also... just because a card is good doesn't warrant a banning. JTMS and Stoneforge Mystic weren't banned because they were too good as individual cards. They were banned because the format became warped to the point where one type of deck was all that was played.
Yes, they are on a similar power level, but in streamlined decks, it gives an extremely unfair advantage to the people that can afford moxes, and in non-streamlined decks it still creates negative tension due to jealousy. And that's the problem. It doesn't matter what else is in your deck, because just the sight of a Mox causes a negative reaction. With Sol Ring, the psychological impact is minimal. Most people will think, "What a lucky draw," and deal with it. But with Moxes, most people wil go, "That's not fair. I can never afford cards like that." That is overall an unhealthy thing for the format, so it's better just to ban them due to the negative stigma attached.
I got a good chuckly out of seeing this point made right above your tagline:
If the people you play against lack the maturity to handle losses, then they should probably pick up another game to play, like Candyland.
Don't get me wrong, I don't see the two as outright contradictory. However, there's definitely quite a bit of contrast between the two which put a smile on my face when I noticed it.
But in a group of strangers, it is disparaging to see a guy play a 5c goodstuff deck worth thousands of dollars with the full mox suite while everyone else can only afford Sol Ring.
Yes, but that's exactly my point. I may get to play that "goodstuff" deck ONCE with a particular group of players but then I'd be told I can never play it again. Heck, I might be told that if I try anything like it again that I'm no longer welcome to play in their games anymore. Also, I'd get the same reaction with from any other groups of players that I might encounter if I tried to use that deck against them.
On the other hand, if I'm just playing them because I own them (started playing in '93, never gave up on the game) and am doing so because I think it's funny to surprise people by mixing the potentially "broken" cards (the accelerants, card draw, tutors, and cards banned due their combo potential), with Great Wall, Chimney Imp, et al, using Atogatog or somesuch as the General, what's the big deal?
I am aware of the "check with your playgroup" rule. However, letting people know what I've thrown together before we start to play would ruin the hilarity of busting out things like a 1st-turn Horizon Seed with the mana generated by cards worth several hundred dollars apiece. Yes, this is the type of nonsense I would do if they weren't banned but my fun - and that which I'd hope they'd experience - won't exist if I have to clear it with the playgroup first. There'd be no "what the heck?" moment.
If the point of the format is to provide a casual, fun game, very few of the cards on the Banned List do that by their nature, though even these are somewhat subjective. I'd say the only ones that fit that description are:
Balance
Biorhythm
Coalition Victory*
Karakas
Limited Resources
Sway of the Stars
Upheaval
* Personally, I question the use of any cards with an effect that ends the game. They seem contrary to the secondary meaning to the "Highlander" concept - that you're victorious by being the last person standing after everyone else has been killed. Just my opinion though, based on my guess on what most people would think of as "fun".
To paraphrase: it's not the cards that need to be banned. It's the decks which players choose to build that violate Rule 0: the Gentleman's Agreement to play games of multiplayer Magic that are interactive and fun.
To paraphrase: it's not the cards that need to be banned. It's the decks which players choose to build that violate Rule 0: the Gentleman's Agreement to play games of multiplayer Magic that are interactive and fun.
Yes, exactly. Which is why the banlist is A. optional and B. focused on removing items that tend to turn any deck into a non-interactive one.
The qualifiers for banning are very clear on the commander website. They have been reiterated over and over on this thread.
Banning decks is impossible:
Explain how one bans a deck in a non-convoluted manner please. Do you ban executing specific combos? Do you think any such rule can be enforceable? The banlist is about setting an indication of what you shouldn't try to do and since a combo piece is banned, can't do.
Balancing edh is a contradiction in terms:
The attraction is the opportunity to play big bombs that you could never run in competitive magic and a wide variety of spells that singleton brings. Balance is something you do to a competitive sport, not theater. If you play EDH with your only goal being to win as fast and hard as possible every game... you are missing the MAGIC of it. You don't buy a Lamborghini because it's the most precision drive and best acceleration, you buy it because it's bombastic and flashy and fun. You shouldn't turn a Lambo into a McClaren, they can both exist separately. Not every car needs to be a McClaren.
Moxes scare new comers due to price:
They could certainly have a home, if they were accessible. Every EDH deck could use a few. As they aren't accessible, it becomes a matter of haves and have nots. All the sudden I realize you have a Lambo and I have to use a go cart. Sure some EDH decks are spendy, but we're talking mana bases here, most EDH decks have fairly affordable ones. Can the format survive moxes now, balance wise, probably as their real impact on games is not going to be insane usually, but psychologically I doubt it could keep drawing people in as well. It takes a lot of the friendliness away.
Sol Ring is readily available and has a limited impact on game outcomes as it is only mana acceleration and while it is certainly superb, it is no channel.
That's fine and dandy in a playgroup of your friends. If you know the people, by all means let them play their moxes. But in a group of strangers, it is disparaging to see a guy play a 5c goodstuff deck worth thousands of dollars with the full mox suite while everyone else can only afford Sol Ring.
There is a stark difference between political tension caused by someone getting ahead in the game very early with a card that is readily available to everyone and tension caused when someone plays a card that most people will never be able to afford.
Yes, they are on a similar power level, but in streamlined decks, it gives an extremely unfair advantage to the people that can afford moxes, and in non-streamlined decks it still creates negative tension due to jealousy. And that's the problem. It doesn't matter what else is in your deck, because just the sight of a Mox causes a negative reaction. With Sol Ring, the psychological impact is minimal. Most people will think, "What a lucky draw," and deal with it. But with Moxes, most people wil go, "That's not fair. I can never afford cards like that." That is overall an unhealthy thing for the format, so it's better just to ban them due to the negative stigma attached.
I will agree that in 1-1, mox have a larger impact and thus the financial mismatch can create a competitive mismatch. But to say this doesn't already exist with $1,000.00+ decks is misleading. We're talking about a format with 100 cards and all of them potentially expensive. Decks can grow to be quite pricey with or without Moxes. Anyone watching their opponent play several dual lands, fetches and shocks can feel the jealousy of seeing 3 or 4 color generals smoothly played, consistently with minimal drawbacks. Add in any of the dozens of $100+ cards, and that's already a problem, so P9 is not alone in that category, it's just among the top of a few hundred other cards on the restricted list (as I mentioned in my original post).
My point is that if we truly believe politics can take care of multiplayer Sol Ring early-turn swings, the same should be true for the Mox. For a specific example that addresses your financial concern - even with my playgroup where some folks have mox and others don't, players are much happier to see an opponent play a first turn Mox than a Sol Ring. We've actually been close to banning the Sol Ring without the Mox initially, as it's been shown to create enemies faster, which inevitably ends up either A) taking a player out too soon because everyone hates the Sol Ring or B) if a player actually manages to win early everyone blames the Sol Ring. In both cases it's a chaotic element that seems to cause more tension that fun - and that's in a group that allows the entire P9. But we're pushing through because it seems odd to ban a card that comes in every pre-built...
From where I sit.....Sol ring is not an issue. Sure I will admit.....there are games that it drops and you run away with the game. But the same can be said about like a hundred other cards. What kinda makes me laugh is how the op talks about games where people are mulling to find thier ring or listing stuff to answer it turn one. I have never felt that I needed to mulligan for my ring or that I needed to answer a turn one ring or id lose.
Heres the deal....are you gonna lose a game or two now and again because someone drops an early ring and runs away with the game? Yes probably. But are you going to win just as many games cause you do? Yes. And are just as many games NOT going to be decided cause someone drops a turn one ring and then it gets blown up by one of a hundred removal spells that are universally run a turn or two later? yes as well....
Sol ring is amazing but ive never felt mad cause someone used it. Wanna know what makes me mad? Someone time stretch and twin casting......or someone tooth and nail for terrastodon and sundering titan and wiping out everyones manabase. Or.......black Myojin.....those cards are unfun. Sol ring is not unfun. Bottom line.
Personally as someone who has been playing this format for a very long time.....the ban list ( which I do follow ) is all wrong. There are alot of things which I totally agree with.....namely...
Tinker
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Karakas
Channel
Balance
Upheaval
Staff of domination
And there are some I totally disagree with...
Tolarian Academy......I could accept this were if urborg was banned. Yes it does create explosive starts BUT you have to be running ALOT of artifact ramp in which case it is more or less a win more card. I have run a Memnarch deck before that was INCREDIBLY broken. Would Academy have helped it? yes.....but its broken regardless. If anything Palinchron needs to be banned to curb blue decks explosiveness. Hell.....any time ive ever run Palinchron in a deck I seem to win games solely on it as opposed to anything else in the deck. And as for Urborg/coffers. It adds about the same amount of mana as Academy albeit a few turns later but heres the difference......what do u need to support academy?.......a decent artifact base.....what do u need to support urborg/coffers?.....a black general. Believe me....play it a bit.....the coffers/urborg combo is ALOT more broken.....plus it doesnt become useless after an oblivion stone/akroma's vengeance/ austere command/ disk/planar cleansing resolves.
Time Stretch......TIme stretch should be banned.....bottom line......you dont think it should? well try playing against ANY blue green deck that has the means to ramp into it, search for it, and copy it and you will very quickly see how dumb it is. 2 turns not enough? well I just played witness or regrowth or recollect. Then next turn I played restock getting the regrowth and the stretch back. Then I praetors council all of em back and do it again. Then this time around I drop and mirari and double it. Then I draw a call to mind and go infinite......Play a UG deck and u will quickly see how easy this truly is.
And the point im making is all of these things ARE legal and are alot less fun then a sol ring. So if were gonna ban ring there are some other things we gotta look at first.......just my two cents
Anyone watching their opponent play several dual lands, fetches and shocks can feel the jealousy of seeing 3 or 4 color generals smoothly played, consistently with minimal drawbacks.
Did I miss the introduction of 4 color generals? I think those would be sweet. While it would be nice if all decks had access to Dual Lands and the fetches, it's not the end of the world. You could probably put one or two into your deck every paycheck even. Taking out the Vivid lands or the basics you were forced to deal with. Spending $40 is a lot different then spending $400. My first EDH deck was Doran, the Siege Tower and I put a good month or two of pimping into that stack. I got all of the dual lands after a while. It was fun collecting piece by piece, adding what I could when I could. I loved that deck. I loved it before I ever got all of the pieces and well afterwards. I ended up offing most of the money stuff for party cash. That was fun too. Now, my pile is a Sol'kanar the Swamp King stack with an absolutely janky mana base... but it gets there. It's not so tough to build a solid mana base using the fixers that Ravnica and Shards afforded us at common/uncommon.
My point is that if we truly believe politics can take care of multiplayer Sol Ring early-turn swings, the same should be true for the Mox.
It is true for the mox. Even if they have all 5 of them in their deck, politics should be able to balance the game. The money difference is a big deal tho. It's a power balance that is not accessible to most people. That's an unbalance that has nothing to do with the game play, it's simply a fact that most gamers won't ever own Power. Those that do, they have Vintage. A format that still sees some competitive play. EDH has survived this long with Sol Ring because it is a very even unbalance. The opportunity for anybody playing it is equally regular. It's the skill level and deck building that changes that. Those that seem to think Sol Ring is 'warping the format' are likely placing the blame in the wrong hands.
If Sol Ring was banned tomorrow, I would be bummed. I would get over it tho. My suggestion to those bummed about Sol Ring... get over it. It's not going anywhere, anytime soon, and I have YET to see an argument in this entire thread that supports the contrary.
To chizarlicious, the only reason I questioned your deck builds, is because I am truly curious as to your qualifications of writing this article. You want to go against the criteria set forth by the rules committee and ban a card that has been widely embraced by the EDH community. To do so, in a public forum, you need a very compelling argument. You lacked that. I think you should spend more time defining your local playgroup than a global movement. Become a community organizer and maybe if your playgroup dedicates some time to your cause, you can start the MTG Tea Party and get the change you believe you need.
And the point im making is all of these things ARE legal and are alot less fun then a sol ring. So if were gonna ban ring there are some other things we gotta look at first.......just my two cents
This is the real point behind it. Sol ring is just a tool to get there. It never actually gets you there. All of those degenerate combos that syphon out the interactive nature of MTG are the turds that ruin my EDH experience.
Banning Sol Ring is about as rational as banning mana screw. If I don't draw 3 lands by turn 5, I should be able to tutor out a full five lands... amirite?
Many people post about how Sol Ring isn't a big deal. It sometimes gets cast turn one, maybe has an effect, but it hardly ever happens. Those people usually only post once or twice, then are done with the thread and on with their lives. Another camp is aware of just how strong a card Sol Ring is. They advocate for the brokenness, and insist that if I can't handle it, it's because my deck sucks, I'm a bad player, and I should go cry to my mommy.
This is what I was talking about in my previous post. In a casual playgroup, overpowered cards aren't a big deal because the decks aren't streamlined. I would argue that the banned list isn't aimed at them. If little Timmy got a mox for his birthday, his buddies are probably going to let him play with it, and it will be exciting. They've probably never seen one before!
The banned list is aimed at players with a little bit too much Spike in them. Like billythefridge, who likes to brag about his $200+black bordered foreign altered signed Sol Ring and point out that my decks suck. (Ok, you can beat my casual deck; it's at the appropriate power level to be fun in my casual playgroup.)
In fact, banned lists in any format are by nature aimed at Spikes. They're the ones who are in it to win. Spike is the guy who streamlines the decks to the point where Sol Ring is a problem. I'm not saying Spikes are bad people, or even that they shouldn't play Commander. I'm saying that it's pretty clear that the banned list exists as an effort to get them to play nice, and to that end Sol Ring belongs on it.
Your trolling. For real. I have posted multiple times in this thread and you have ignored good arguments. No, people are not posting here anymore because they made their point and you attempted to counter them and they went "No you didn't" and you just shrugged your shoulders.
How dare you be that smug. How dare you say that it is clear. It is not clear. It is not true. So just stop please.
Your trolling. For real. I have posted multiple times in this thread and you have ignored good arguments. No, people are not posting here anymore because they made their point and you attempted to counter them and they went "No you didn't" and you just shrugged your shoulders.
How dare you be that smug. How dare you say that it is clear. It is not clear. It is not true. So just stop please.
I agree with this guy. A lot of people will only post once or twice simply because they are only attempting to make their opinion known. Regardless of what other people say, it is there opinion. They may post again if someone makes a counterargument that they believe to not even be relevant to the issue at hand.
EDIT: Oh and on the level of power. Yes, Sol Ring may be "on the level with the power" but let's not forget, it is much easier for even me to pick up a Sol Ring today than any power cards. It is also much cheaper.
This is what I was talking about in my previous post. In a casual playgroup, overpowered cards aren't a big deal because the decks aren't streamlined. I would argue that the banned list isn't aimed at them. If little Timmy got a mox for his birthday, his buddies are probably going to let him play with it, and it will be exciting. They've probably never seen one before!
The banned list is aimed at players with a little bit too much Spike in them. Like billythefridge, who likes to brag about his $200+ black bordered foreign altered signed Sol Ring and point out that my decks suck. (Ok, you can beat my casual deck; it's at the appropriate power level to be fun in my casual playgroup.)
In fact, banned lists in any format are by nature aimed at Spikes. They're the ones who are in it to win. Spike is the guy who streamlines the decks to the point where Sol Ring is a problem. I'm not saying Spikes are bad people, or even that they shouldn't play Commander. I'm saying that it's pretty clear that the banned list exists as an effort to get them to play nice, and to that end Sol Ring belongs on it.
I've never had an issue with Sol Ring during my entire life of playing Magic. If one comes out while we are playing EDH (or our own Legacy/Vintage hybrid), no one complains because it's part of the game. It's not a card that's unfun to play against, even though it gives your opponent an advantage.
Within EDH there are far more sinister things that one could argue to be banned. For example, playing against a Zur, the Enchanter deck is the most unfun thing I have done (and the versions I've played against don't even run Sol Ring) or other decks that contain infinite combos, such as ones that kill every creature on the board and prevent any others to be played. Take a poll of players and I bet you would find more people have a problem with situations like this than when someone plays a first turn Sol Ring.
On a side note...
It's more like $20.
Sol Ring is a powerful card. No one is disputing that. However, you are basing your judgments and arguments off of drawing not only Sol Ring in your opening hand or your top deck, but also any combo pieces needed at the same time.
Sol Ring is limited in Vintage. That means in a 60-card minimum deck, you have one. Many of the pieces that it helps combo can be found as four-ofs in most decks running them. Assuming your opening hand, you have 92 other cards that can be drawn (1 General, 6 cards, 1 Sol Ring makes 8. 100 - 8 = 92). On top of that, you need the cards, as I have said, that combos off of it. The chance of drawing everything needed in the first 8 cards is very, very rare.
Once again, you're grasping at straws. It may be banned in the French Ban List, but that is not the official Commander banlist. Commander is not a 1v1 format. It is designed to be a multiplayer format, and in many cases if Sol Ring is such a big threat, you drop it and you can almost certainly guarantee that you'll be ganged up on.
Commander is a casual, non-sanctioned format. I don't think you get this.
If Sol Ring becomes that much of an issue, then it will most certainly be banned. However, as has been pointed out, there is one in a 99 card deck. That makes the odds of drawing it much lower than in a 60 card deck.
By that logic, any General capable of making the format "unfair" or "not fun deserves to be banned.
Karador should be banned, because he makes things come back.
Wort should be banned, because she makes things come back.
Glissa should be banned, because she instantly kills things in combat.
I can make this list go on and on. But I won't. Sol Ring is not to the point of a Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Caw-Blade. It never will be. until such time as they make a turn 2 win condition that is easily obtainable and is consistent, it won't be banned, nor should it be.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
I find it so, so hard to believe that your reading skills are that poor. It has been hammered over and over in this thread that this is just not true.
Here are the three criteria for banning a card in EDH (again, for those of you who apparently didn't see it the first time):
Let's see here, does Sol Ring meet these criteria?
Well, it's stronger than a one-drop typically is, but it isn't made stronger by making the jump to EDH, and is actually weaker than it is in Vintage due to the bigger deck size and overall higher casting cost of most cards. So nope, no match there.
Sol Ring from the Commander set is around $5, and around $10 for Revised, so nope.
It makes mana. You'd be pretty hard-pressed to find someone dumb enough not to understand what a Sol Ring does.
I'm going to assume you people know how to read, so any further argument that things are banned in EDH for being "broken" (whatever that means in the context of the format) shall be regarded as admission that you are illiterate.
Don't all the "politics" arguments in defense of Sol Ring's impact on the game apply several times over with regard to Moxes? The person playing those would be painting a target on themselves far beyond that which a Sol Ring does (even though their impact on the game state is similar) purely based on their dollar value. In EDH, it's not the power of the individual cards but the way the overall deck. If we're working from the principle that shunning players with degenerate decks is an acceptable and effective practice, then there's no point to a Banned list at all.
Overall enjoyment of EDH, including not being shunned, is a balancing act between the amount of acceleration being played, what is able to be played (earlier) thanks to that acceleration, playing a deck which interacts with others, and creates enjoyable scenarios. Nothing intrinsically wrong with the Moxes, it merely requires you to cut down on the power level of your threats and making your deck that much more interesting to compensate.
That's fine and dandy in a playgroup of your friends. If you know the people, by all means let them play their moxes. But in a group of strangers, it is disparaging to see a guy play a 5c goodstuff deck worth thousands of dollars with the full mox suite while everyone else can only afford Sol Ring.
There is a stark difference between political tension caused by someone getting ahead in the game very early with a card that is readily available to everyone and tension caused when someone plays a card that most people will never be able to afford.
Yes, they are on a similar power level, but in streamlined decks, it gives an extremely unfair advantage to the people that can afford moxes, and in non-streamlined decks it still creates negative tension due to jealousy. And that's the problem. It doesn't matter what else is in your deck, because just the sight of a Mox causes a negative reaction. With Sol Ring, the psychological impact is minimal. Most people will think, "What a lucky draw," and deal with it. But with Moxes, most people wil go, "That's not fair. I can never afford cards like that." That is overall an unhealthy thing for the format, so it's better just to ban them due to the negative stigma attached.
Let's just end this all here and now. Audiox has summed it all up. If balanced edh is actually of interest to people... Play EDH with cards from the Modern format and use its banlist, just start playing it like a format and if anyone actually likes it then it will catch on. It won't, because that is not what EDH is about.
OP has stated the banlist is to keep spikes in line and in some ways it is, but it is to take away the crowning jewels not their power tools. The game is healthy that way and everyone gets to use those power tools we love so much.
Actually I think it does. If you know person A is playing bad-ass Mox deck (or after one turn you'll find out pretty fast). If they are 2-3 turns ahead of you on mana, it's still going to be hard playing 3 on 1. I'd like some people to try it actually... play a 3 on 1 commander but put yourself up 3 mana and down 3 cards (that represent the mana ramp) to start the game.
Like someone pointed out already, I think the point of banning those cards is so that people don't feel like you have to have those cards to be competitive.
Politics doesn't solve everything. Cards that are part of degenerate combos that can kill multiple players in a single turn. Those are things that need to be banned. I don't have the banned list in front of me, but I imagine a lot of the cards that are banned are powerful tutors like Gift's Ungiven that allow for consistent game states or stuff like Necro that just provides powerful card advantage even if they have an answer to it.
You are right about it being banned in every "sanctioned" format. However, remember, Commander has a large number of cards that you can't play in any other format. They are Commander only cards such as some of the dragons, the vow cards, Minds Aglow and the other cards that let each player tap mana for a nice effect, etc. So, this argument you have made is rather not really that relevant. Commander is a non sanctioned format that uses a slightly different set of rules and has a banned list.
Secondly, the article fails to mention the SEVERAL other cards OTHER than mental misstep that can be used by a player on their turn one. For instance, there is Crush, Oxidize, Ingot Chewer, Crumble, Shattering Spree, and that's just the one mana ways of getting rid of it.
I have played Commander for a few months now, have seen Sol Rings in almost every deck. I still don't think it needs to be banned. Why? Because you don't win just from playing Sol Ring. One might respond by saying, but it gives you a big mana advantage, so why not ban it? Well, I think there are better cards out there to ban. Apparently, the author has never played against degenerate Riku decks. The very fact that almost every single Riku deck I see is a degenerate infinite turn deck using Mana Reflection, Primeval Titan, Vorinclex, and Boseiju(to make sure the kill card cannot be countered) tells me that it is a bigger issue than Sol Ring right about now.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
Exactly. Its a casual format, if you are crunching numbers and doing pie charts, this aint the format for you.
Not Gruul? Then Die!
In my opinion, the article was horribly constructed. Many players have made far better points as to why it should be banned, and many players have also made far better reasons as to why it shouldn't be banned than what was presented in the article. Essentially, the author used the arguments against his claims that he could refute with semi-logical counterarguments, but left out a lot of others as to why it shouldn't be banned.
And I disagree with the math portion. When you deal with someone like this, you need to come at them with facts, and that includes math. Sometimes you even need to make pretty graphs and charts so they shut up for a few seconds.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
Sol Ring is there so you can live the dream one in ten games. And you draw attention for doing so. It helps to randomly shift the balance around once in a while. Magic has some random elements, because a little randomness adds to the fun. This is especially true for a singleton format like EDH.
Cards aren't all made equal. This isn't a design flaw or a problem. This is what makes the game exciting.
• Call of Cthulhu CCG Servitor for the Netherlands!
Arkham, the 1920's. Investigators battle horrors from beyond time and space, risking life and sanity while conspiracies of cultists and malign servitors seek gateways for their outer gods to return...
Soon, the stars will be right! Great Cthulhu shall rise!
Early fattie? Good game event.
Early game warping effect? Good game event.
Randomly skewed politics? Good game event.
Early game ending combo? Good game event. (Occasionally, I wouldn't want to see it every game. See the Kokusho bit below.)
From my EDH experience through multiple cities with playgroups of friends and/or strangers alike, Sol Ring is actually doing the opposite of causing problems; it is creating fun and memorable game states.
Sol Ring is neutral in and of itself. It is a tool that lets us play out Verdant Force early, or put a little extra juice into Brightflame. The EDH ban list should not stop us from doing those things, instead it should allow us access to tools like Sol Ring to facilitate those big plays. The cards we ban should be the powerful effects which consistently win via minimal interaction. What did every early Kokusho deck do? Recursive combo. Every Kokusho deck aimed to do a really cool (but not particularly fun) thing every single game. Every game. All night. It went against the spirit of the format, it purposely circumvented interaction in the same way, every game. That's cool in a Legacy deck. But not so in a deck meant to embrace powerful, sweeping, brutal, exciting effects, and swing those into a wave of like effects from your opponents. EDH should have decks capable of randomly comboing out, the problem lies in the player if the deck is designed to do so every game.
Moderator Help Desk
Sales Thread
I've only ever said that we should CONSIDER the banning of the card. Its become a staple card. Even if the deckchange is OUT: 1 random land IN: Sol Ring, you're making a generic improvement on most decks (unless your deck is oddly focused. Then land away my friend).
I'll put to bed this argument against banning it: "If you draw it late game, its useless"
- "Big mana" effects aren't banned because they ruin games on turn 15. They're banned because they have the ability to end a game well before other players have the ability to get online.
Aside from that, I think I've seen enough "outcry" that I'm really done arguing the point. It was worth a consideration - and there has been a lot of evidence pointing that Sol Ring shouldn't be banned.
So what should be? - Since, you know, everyone who has scoffed at the idea has said "There are X other cards that should be banned WAAAY before Sol Ring gets banned..."
I want to hear them, because now I'm curious.
Also: Might I point out that "banning" someone's decklist is likely NOT the best route to take. My playgroup (who make ALL of our focus on having FUN with the format, not cracking its spine like Bane on Batman...) has adopted the following rule:
1. If you "go infinite" or combo out and defeat all the players or develop a "hard lock" that no one can get out of. Congratulations: You win. You may collect your deck and head home. The rest of us will continue playing as though you had just left the game.
and
2. We do NOT play "grief" cards - Erayo // Arcane Lab combo, Mind Twist, or other fine things.
3. If the aforementioned combo is RIDICULOUS and takes more than 4 cards to put together, or is comprised of a stolen card or is otherwise unintentionally interacting with another card on the field not under your control - you actually win.
Thoughts?
The argument that it's useless lategame is really the argument that because the card is restricted and only really valuable if you draw it in your opening hand... it's only powerful less than a 10th of the time.
There are decks in standard formats (maybe not the CURRENT standard format, but in the past) that can win the game on turn 3 or 4, so the potential for a "fast start" has NEVER been a reason to ban a card. The reason they've never banned cards that can do this is because usually there's like a 10% chance or less for someone to get the "God Hand" and basically auto-win. Sure, 1 out of every 10 games you get off to a ridiculous start and you win the game... but that's going to happen.
Also... just because a card is good doesn't warrant a banning. JTMS and Stoneforge Mystic weren't banned because they were too good as individual cards. They were banned because the format became warped to the point where one type of deck was all that was played.
I got a good chuckly out of seeing this point made right above your tagline:
Don't get me wrong, I don't see the two as outright contradictory. However, there's definitely quite a bit of contrast between the two which put a smile on my face when I noticed it.
Yes, but that's exactly my point. I may get to play that "goodstuff" deck ONCE with a particular group of players but then I'd be told I can never play it again. Heck, I might be told that if I try anything like it again that I'm no longer welcome to play in their games anymore. Also, I'd get the same reaction with from any other groups of players that I might encounter if I tried to use that deck against them.
On the other hand, if I'm just playing them because I own them (started playing in '93, never gave up on the game) and am doing so because I think it's funny to surprise people by mixing the potentially "broken" cards (the accelerants, card draw, tutors, and cards banned due their combo potential), with Great Wall, Chimney Imp, et al, using Atogatog or somesuch as the General, what's the big deal?
I am aware of the "check with your playgroup" rule. However, letting people know what I've thrown together before we start to play would ruin the hilarity of busting out things like a 1st-turn Horizon Seed with the mana generated by cards worth several hundred dollars apiece. Yes, this is the type of nonsense I would do if they weren't banned but my fun - and that which I'd hope they'd experience - won't exist if I have to clear it with the playgroup first. There'd be no "what the heck?" moment.
If the point of the format is to provide a casual, fun game, very few of the cards on the Banned List do that by their nature, though even these are somewhat subjective. I'd say the only ones that fit that description are:
Balance
Biorhythm
Coalition Victory*
Karakas
Limited Resources
Sway of the Stars
Upheaval
* Personally, I question the use of any cards with an effect that ends the game. They seem contrary to the secondary meaning to the "Highlander" concept - that you're victorious by being the last person standing after everyone else has been killed. Just my opinion though, based on my guess on what most people would think of as "fun".
To paraphrase: it's not the cards that need to be banned. It's the decks which players choose to build that violate Rule 0: the Gentleman's Agreement to play games of multiplayer Magic that are interactive and fun.
Sol Ring has positive associations for most players, therefore it is fine.
[[b]B]DCI Level 2 Judge[/B][/b]Yes, exactly. Which is why the banlist is A. optional and B. focused on removing items that tend to turn any deck into a non-interactive one.
The qualifiers for banning are very clear on the commander website. They have been reiterated over and over on this thread.
Banning decks is impossible:
Explain how one bans a deck in a non-convoluted manner please. Do you ban executing specific combos? Do you think any such rule can be enforceable? The banlist is about setting an indication of what you shouldn't try to do and since a combo piece is banned, can't do.
Balancing edh is a contradiction in terms:
The attraction is the opportunity to play big bombs that you could never run in competitive magic and a wide variety of spells that singleton brings. Balance is something you do to a competitive sport, not theater. If you play EDH with your only goal being to win as fast and hard as possible every game... you are missing the MAGIC of it. You don't buy a Lamborghini because it's the most precision drive and best acceleration, you buy it because it's bombastic and flashy and fun. You shouldn't turn a Lambo into a McClaren, they can both exist separately. Not every car needs to be a McClaren.
Moxes scare new comers due to price:
They could certainly have a home, if they were accessible. Every EDH deck could use a few. As they aren't accessible, it becomes a matter of haves and have nots. All the sudden I realize you have a Lambo and I have to use a go cart. Sure some EDH decks are spendy, but we're talking mana bases here, most EDH decks have fairly affordable ones. Can the format survive moxes now, balance wise, probably as their real impact on games is not going to be insane usually, but psychologically I doubt it could keep drawing people in as well. It takes a lot of the friendliness away.
Sol Ring is readily available and has a limited impact on game outcomes as it is only mana acceleration and while it is certainly superb, it is no channel.
I will agree that in 1-1, mox have a larger impact and thus the financial mismatch can create a competitive mismatch. But to say this doesn't already exist with $1,000.00+ decks is misleading. We're talking about a format with 100 cards and all of them potentially expensive. Decks can grow to be quite pricey with or without Moxes. Anyone watching their opponent play several dual lands, fetches and shocks can feel the jealousy of seeing 3 or 4 color generals smoothly played, consistently with minimal drawbacks. Add in any of the dozens of $100+ cards, and that's already a problem, so P9 is not alone in that category, it's just among the top of a few hundred other cards on the restricted list (as I mentioned in my original post).
My point is that if we truly believe politics can take care of multiplayer Sol Ring early-turn swings, the same should be true for the Mox. For a specific example that addresses your financial concern - even with my playgroup where some folks have mox and others don't, players are much happier to see an opponent play a first turn Mox than a Sol Ring. We've actually been close to banning the Sol Ring without the Mox initially, as it's been shown to create enemies faster, which inevitably ends up either A) taking a player out too soon because everyone hates the Sol Ring or B) if a player actually manages to win early everyone blames the Sol Ring. In both cases it's a chaotic element that seems to cause more tension that fun - and that's in a group that allows the entire P9. But we're pushing through because it seems odd to ban a card that comes in every pre-built...
Heres the deal....are you gonna lose a game or two now and again because someone drops an early ring and runs away with the game? Yes probably. But are you going to win just as many games cause you do? Yes. And are just as many games NOT going to be decided cause someone drops a turn one ring and then it gets blown up by one of a hundred removal spells that are universally run a turn or two later? yes as well....
Sol ring is amazing but ive never felt mad cause someone used it. Wanna know what makes me mad? Someone time stretch and twin casting......or someone tooth and nail for terrastodon and sundering titan and wiping out everyones manabase. Or.......black Myojin.....those cards are unfun. Sol ring is not unfun. Bottom line.
Personally as someone who has been playing this format for a very long time.....the ban list ( which I do follow ) is all wrong. There are alot of things which I totally agree with.....namely...
Tinker
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Karakas
Channel
Balance
Upheaval
Staff of domination
And there are some I totally disagree with...
Tolarian Academy......I could accept this were if urborg was banned. Yes it does create explosive starts BUT you have to be running ALOT of artifact ramp in which case it is more or less a win more card. I have run a Memnarch deck before that was INCREDIBLY broken. Would Academy have helped it? yes.....but its broken regardless. If anything Palinchron needs to be banned to curb blue decks explosiveness. Hell.....any time ive ever run Palinchron in a deck I seem to win games solely on it as opposed to anything else in the deck. And as for Urborg/coffers. It adds about the same amount of mana as Academy albeit a few turns later but heres the difference......what do u need to support academy?.......a decent artifact base.....what do u need to support urborg/coffers?.....a black general. Believe me....play it a bit.....the coffers/urborg combo is ALOT more broken.....plus it doesnt become useless after an oblivion stone/akroma's vengeance/ austere command/ disk/planar cleansing resolves.
Time Stretch......TIme stretch should be banned.....bottom line......you dont think it should? well try playing against ANY blue green deck that has the means to ramp into it, search for it, and copy it and you will very quickly see how dumb it is. 2 turns not enough? well I just played witness or regrowth or recollect. Then next turn I played restock getting the regrowth and the stretch back. Then I praetors council all of em back and do it again. Then this time around I drop and mirari and double it. Then I draw a call to mind and go infinite......Play a UG deck and u will quickly see how easy this truly is.
And the point im making is all of these things ARE legal and are alot less fun then a sol ring. So if were gonna ban ring there are some other things we gotta look at first.......just my two cents
Did I miss the introduction of 4 color generals? I think those would be sweet. While it would be nice if all decks had access to Dual Lands and the fetches, it's not the end of the world. You could probably put one or two into your deck every paycheck even. Taking out the Vivid lands or the basics you were forced to deal with. Spending $40 is a lot different then spending $400. My first EDH deck was Doran, the Siege Tower and I put a good month or two of pimping into that stack. I got all of the dual lands after a while. It was fun collecting piece by piece, adding what I could when I could. I loved that deck. I loved it before I ever got all of the pieces and well afterwards. I ended up offing most of the money stuff for party cash. That was fun too. Now, my pile is a Sol'kanar the Swamp King stack with an absolutely janky mana base... but it gets there. It's not so tough to build a solid mana base using the fixers that Ravnica and Shards afforded us at common/uncommon.
It is true for the mox. Even if they have all 5 of them in their deck, politics should be able to balance the game. The money difference is a big deal tho. It's a power balance that is not accessible to most people. That's an unbalance that has nothing to do with the game play, it's simply a fact that most gamers won't ever own Power. Those that do, they have Vintage. A format that still sees some competitive play. EDH has survived this long with Sol Ring because it is a very even unbalance. The opportunity for anybody playing it is equally regular. It's the skill level and deck building that changes that. Those that seem to think Sol Ring is 'warping the format' are likely placing the blame in the wrong hands.
If Sol Ring was banned tomorrow, I would be bummed. I would get over it tho. My suggestion to those bummed about Sol Ring... get over it. It's not going anywhere, anytime soon, and I have YET to see an argument in this entire thread that supports the contrary.
To chizarlicious, the only reason I questioned your deck builds, is because I am truly curious as to your qualifications of writing this article. You want to go against the criteria set forth by the rules committee and ban a card that has been widely embraced by the EDH community. To do so, in a public forum, you need a very compelling argument. You lacked that. I think you should spend more time defining your local playgroup than a global movement. Become a community organizer and maybe if your playgroup dedicates some time to your cause, you can start the MTG Tea Party and get the change you believe you need.
LISTEN TO MAH SONGZ!
@BillyTheFridge
This is the real point behind it. Sol ring is just a tool to get there. It never actually gets you there. All of those degenerate combos that syphon out the interactive nature of MTG are the turds that ruin my EDH experience.
Banning Sol Ring is about as rational as banning mana screw. If I don't draw 3 lands by turn 5, I should be able to tutor out a full five lands... amirite?
LISTEN TO MAH SONGZ!
@BillyTheFridge
Your trolling. For real. I have posted multiple times in this thread and you have ignored good arguments. No, people are not posting here anymore because they made their point and you attempted to counter them and they went "No you didn't" and you just shrugged your shoulders.
How dare you be that smug. How dare you say that it is clear. It is not clear. It is not true. So just stop please.
I agree with this guy. A lot of people will only post once or twice simply because they are only attempting to make their opinion known. Regardless of what other people say, it is there opinion. They may post again if someone makes a counterargument that they believe to not even be relevant to the issue at hand.
EDIT: Oh and on the level of power. Yes, Sol Ring may be "on the level with the power" but let's not forget, it is much easier for even me to pick up a Sol Ring today than any power cards. It is also much cheaper.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.