I dont understand why so many people on this tread equate fast win = unfun. Sol ring does make for a faster game (though often on multiple sides) but why would that be any less fun. I love seeing games where someone takes a huge lead only to get squished from over extending.
I would stand by the argument that mana crypt is actually more in line with banning criteria than sol ring is.
Both accelerate, but crypt can do so on the turn its drawn while sol ring needs a mana cost investment.
Mana crypt is far more difficult to obtain, costly, and not printed nearly enough to be readily included in any given players deck.
It does arguably have a method of play that is based on dexterity (flipping a coin.)
The last argument is just because, but the first 2 are true. To skip past this card only to go to sol ring shows that the author seems to have his sights on sol ring for reasons not specifically thought out.
How you address a hypothetical super-Sol Ring is actually very telling. It divides those who are interested in any balancing of the format from those who are not.
Perhaps Commander can survive as an unbalanced format; being casual in nature will certainly help with that. But unbalanced games typically do not survive. Look at Pokemon or Yu-gi-oh. Heck, look at the popularity of Vintage (which may be impossible to balance, but Wizards is trying) compared to Modern or Standard. Look at old Extended. Or Prismatic Stairwell. When games aren't balanced, or can't be balanced, players lose interest.
It's a fact that Sol Ring is ludicrously powerful. Super-Sol Ring is of course more so, but ordinary Sol Ring is outrageous. Two points are sufficient to show this: (1) Sol Ring goes in every deck. This fact has been written off but not contested. (2) Anyone who casts a first turn Sol Ring is suddenly a threat worth ganging up on. This has been said dozens of times through this thread. That's how it warps the format.
Anyone who believes that Super-Sol Ring should be banned based on power level believes that bannings for power level are admissable. And if anything should be banned for raw power it's Sol Ring.
The claim that I haven't presented any argument that Sol Ring be banned is laughable. The argument is obvious, and it comes from your repeated admissions that Sol Ring is a broken card. Arguments to the contrary are bogus, which was the focus of my article.
Vocal contributors to this thread are certainly very concerned with being inflammatory, but quite uninterested in conversation. It's true that an intelligent conversation about Sol Ring in Commander could be had, but evidently not here. I won't be reading or posting any further. EDIT: Never mind...
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
Perhaps Commander can survive as an unbalanced format; being casual in nature will certainly help with that. But unbalanced games typically do not survive. Look at Pokemon or Yu-gi-oh. Heck, look at the popularity of Vintage (which may be impossible to balance, but Wizards is trying) compared to Modern or Standard. Look at old Extended. Or Prismatic Stairwell. When games aren't balanced, or can't be balanced, players lose interest.
I still fail to see how Sol Ring makes the format unbalanced. If everyone is supposedly running it like you claim, then everyone has a FAIR chance of using it. That seems balanced.
The claim that I haven't presented any argument that Sol Ring be banned is laughable. The argument is obvious, and it comes from your repeated admissions that Sol Ring is a broken card. Arguments to the contrary are bogus, which was the focus of my article.
Sure Sol Ring is broken, the point is that there are other cards that broken which you are not advocating for their ban. Yes, you have presented an arguement but it lacked any empirical evidence to support your claim.
Vocal contributors to this thread are certainly very concerned with being inflammatory, but quite uninterested in conversation. It's true that an intelligent conversation about Sol Ring in Commander could be had, but evidently not here. I won't be reading or posting any further.
I'll have a conversation but you need to do a better job of proving your point, and maybe conceding that your arguement is maybe misguided. I thought I was being restrained in my remarks, by no means did i resort to my regular level of inflammatory remarks.
Also: to bail on your own thread and article is truely a cop out. If you are going to advocate for something you damn well better stand up for yourself to the bitter end.
Vocal contributors to this thread are certainly very concerned with being inflammatory, but quite uninterested in conversation. It's true that an intelligent conversation about Sol Ring in Commander could be had, but evidently not here. I won't be reading or posting any further.
Wow... I guess that is one way to avoid a conversation... I feel that there are some valid points on both sides, and I actually agree with some of what you said. The fact that you are willing to torpedo your entire article with this statement is proof that you either do not want to try and intelligently back up your arguement(which is childish), you already feel that you have 100% without a doubt have proven your article(which is foolish), or you have a family or a job which takes up more time than reading this encyclopedia of responses(which I can understand).
How you address a hypothetical super-Sol Ring is actually very telling. It divides those who are interested in any balancing of the format from those who are not.
Perhaps Commander can survive as an unbalanced format; being casual in nature will certainly help with that. But unbalanced games typically do not survive. Look at Pokemon or Yu-gi-oh. Heck, look at the popularity of Vintage (which may be impossible to balance, but Wizards is trying) compared to Modern or Standard. Look at old Extended. Or Prismatic Stairwell. When games aren't balanced, or can't be balanced, players lose interest.
It's a fact that Sol Ring is ludicrously powerful. Super-Sol Ring is of course more so, but ordinary Sol Ring is outrageous. Two points are sufficient to show this: (1) Sol Ring goes in every deck. This fact has been written off but not contested. (2) Anyone who casts a first turn Sol Ring is suddenly a threat worth ganging up on. This has been said dozens of times through this thread. That's how it warps the format.
Anyone who believes that Super-Sol Ring should be banned based on power level believes that bannings for power level are admissable. And if anything should be banned for raw power it's Sol Ring.
The claim that I haven't presented any argument that Sol Ring be banned is laughable. The argument is obvious, and it comes from your repeated admissions that Sol Ring is a broken card. Arguments to the contrary are bogus, which was the focus of my article.
Vocal contributors to this thread are certainly very concerned with being inflammatory, but quite uninterested in conversation. It's true that an intelligent conversation about Sol Ring in Commander could be had, but evidently not here. I won't be reading or posting any further.
All arguments you have provided regarding the nature of Sol Ring in Commander is based off of anecdotal evidence. Yes, every Commander deck should run Sol Ring. Every Commander deck that runs white should run StP. Should we ban StP? Most commander decks run Sensei's Divining Top. Should we ban the top? probably not.
A turn 2 planeswalker isn't going to occur frequently enough to be a real problem. Forming an argument over such a specific instance is just rather silly on your point.
Your attitude towards everyone else in this thread is appalling. There has been intelligent conversation on this thread. It's just simply been arguing against your point. Right now you sound like Eric Cartman saying 'Screw you guys, I'm going home.'
I totally disagree with all arguments to ban it.
1.- Don't like it? Don't play it or ban it in your play group.
2.- It's one of 99 cards. The odds of drawing it at first hand is 1:93
3.- It can be tutored? Everything is tutor-able
4.- Moxes are banned? They give colored mana!!! (also cost an eye + kidney). Sol ring doesn't.
5.- Every deck should play it.
6.- Both or all players use it? It's just luck to draw/tutor it first than anyone (see pts 2&3). Group Bannings are optional.
7.- Why ban it for everyone? It's a fun card!!!
The first is quite possibly the best land for EDH ever printed when considered in the average of all known decks. The seconds is a superb mana accelerator. The third gives your general staying power and an early hit.
All three warp the format by your definition. I want all three in almost any opening hand and are auto includes. All three are above the curve significantly. Why is it only Sol Ring needs to go? Shouldn't all three go if we truly want to be rid of EDH auto includes across all colors?
I think the people who want Sol Ring banned are the people who crunch the numbers, and fine turn their 100 card, casual deck with a fine tooth comb to make it as efficient as possible. These are the people who shouldn't be playing EDH anyway, so let's just ban these players, as it's against the spirit of the format.
Seriously though, the first reply to this thread sums up multi-player EDH so well, and is a great example of how EDH is so good at keeping itself in check that its single sentence invalidates the articles entire set of arguments.
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This conversation has devolved into a similar example of gun control arguments. Sure, we can ban guns cause guns kill people. This doesn't negate the fact we should hold the person holding the gun responsible.
If people want to abuse Sol Ring or any other card for the matter, they can. If people were using it to cast second turn Blastoderms, we wouldn't be having this argument. Not everyone plays superpowerful decks. Not everyone plays the most powerful cards ever printed.
Banning Sol Ring would be similar to banning guns or anything else harmful in society. Let's ban fatty foods while we are at it.
2.- It's one of 99 cards. The odds of drawing it at first hand is 1:93
If I'm thinking correctly, odds are closer to 1- (chances you will not draw it) ->
1 - (98/99*97/98*96/97*95/96*94/95*93/94*92/93) ~ 7.1% for a 7 card hand, but still pretty small.
It's a fact that Sol Ring is ludicrously powerful.
No, it's not. You've assumed this entire time that everyone simply accepts Sol Ring as overpowered, but power-level is directly proportional to what a card is capable of in the format it's being discussed in - not the other formats it is or has been legal in. Case and point: Ponder is limited to 1 in Vintage because looking at the top three, possibly shipping all of them, then drawing one for 1 U is borderline absurd in the format. You wouldn't consider banning Ponder in Standard on that point alone.
"It doesn't belong in every deck... my deck doesn't want it."
. This is true. I don't run it in all my decks since color-fixing is more important with 3-5 colors.
And I'd like to throw in my own argument for why I would not want to put Sol Ring into my Riku deck, which is hands down my most competitive deck of what I've got:
Objective: power out ramp until you have enough to draw a huge amount from an X-Draw spell (eg Blue Sun's Zenith), then play, entwine, and copy a Tooth and Nail to hit massive creatures (ie Avenger of Zendikar + Primevial Titan), copy them, and swing for alpha strike at the first possible chance.
Tools needed for the job: -Ramp, Draw, and Time Walk effects for consistency (alt win con is infinite turns with doubling regrowths/recollects/etc)
Looking specifically at ramp:
--Copyable:
-Cultivate, Kodama's Reach
-Explosive Vegetation
-Rampant Growth
-Harrow
-Life from the Loam
-Reap and Sow
-Solemn Simulacrum
-Oracle of Mul Daya
-...A few others, omitted for brevity
--Not Copyable:
-Sol Ring
-Gilded Lotus
-Darksteel Ingot
-Temple of the False Gods
-...Again, a few others
When filtering through these, several must be excluded (or, perhaps I should say only the best can be chosen for inclusion). Sol Ring is quickly dropped from the list because the colorless mana is difficult to use when I'm attempting to cast several spells, all requiring at the very least UG or UR, and probably and additional U, G, or R, if not more.
Additionally, Sol Ring effectively only ramps me 1 within the turn, two on the next turn. All of the green ramp spells can either match this behavior, with color included, or even do better if I double it with Riku.
Granted, these are not all playable turn 1. However, there is no reason I'd want the advantage from Sol Ring when I could cast Exploration or Burgeoning on turn 1 instead, effectively ramping me at least one colored source before my next turn. These would easily take Sol Ring's slot in my deck, and I'd likely feel better having drawn them than drawing Sol Ring in any game.
So, are you satisfied? There are, in fact, quite legitimate reasons why Sol Ring is simply not an auto-include in decks.
(2) Anyone who casts a first turn Sol Ring is suddenly a threat worth ganging up on. This has been said dozens of times through this thread. That's how it warps the format.
That isn't a format warping card, it's a game warping event. It's exactly the same as when someone casts a turn two Luminarch Ascension - of course you're going to get beaten down, but it doesn't make Luminarch Ascension ban-worthy.
Anyone who believes that Super-Sol Ring should be banned based on power level believes that bannings for power level are admissable.
This is actually a reasonable point, I'll grant you. However, it still shouldn't be a gutteral, "oh wow that card looks stupid" decision. There should still be real, hard analysis on why Super-Sol Ring is ban-worthy before doing it.
The argument that has been made over and over in this thread is that you've been contending for hard, non-anectdotal evidence why Sol Ring oughtn't be banned, yet you fail to provide anything but hypothetical situations and hand-wavy statistics to prove your own point. Why should we listen to you about Sol Ring being ban worthy when you fail to meet your own criteria for evidence?
I totally disagree with all arguments to ban it.
1.- Don't like it? Don't play it or ban it in your play group.
2.- It's one of 99 cards. The odds of drawing it at first hand is 1:93
1. There have been more than enough points made that an universal banned list is desirable. I would love to play by one. But since I think it is rather flawed, we chose to play with our own. This doesnt change that I would like an official banned list to play by.
2. Besides your math being wrong, the odds of not drawing the card cannot be a reasonable argument against the card. Of course Sol Ring is not broken if no one draws it, duh. It is completely useless to argue about the times where no one draws sol ring, because it is like no one is playing sol ring...the chances of SOMEONE having a turn 1 sol ring on a multiplayer table is definitely high enough to care about.
3.- It can be tutored? Everything is tutor-able
4.- Moxes are banned? They give colored mana!!! (also cost an eye + kidney). Sol ring doesn't.
3. No one complains about it being tutorable specifically...
4. If you are trying to argue that Sol Ring is worse than a mox, you have just shown that you have not comprehended its power level at all.
5.- Every deck should play it.
6.- Both or all players use it? It's just luck to draw/tutor it first than anyone (see pts 2&3). Group Bannings are optional.
7.- Why ban it for everyone? It's a fun card!!!
5. indeed. Thats rather troublesome for a card for such an explosive card.
6. it is likely thatsomeone will have it and everyone else wont. Skewing the game in some random direction every time is not desirable.
7. How is a plow under on everyone else fun? I fail to see that...
And I'd like to throw in my own argument for why I would not want to put Sol Ring into my Riku deck, which is hands down my most competitive deck of what I've got:
Try with any colorless land in your deck. You'll find that Sol Ring is incredibly better. If youre not playing with colorless lands, just look at the worst card in your deck. Its not too hard to find about 95 cards in every deck that could be replaced by sol ring.
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Sometimes those with the most sin cast the first stones.
And if anything should be banned for raw power it's Sol Ring.
In your opinion. Which, has as been demonstrated, in neither shared by the majority nor the people actually in charge of bannings in EDH.
And is SO not shared by the actual creators of Magic: The Gathering - and it seems nearly everyone in R&D plays EDH regularly - that they actually put a sol ring in every single official Commander product.
People who actually know how to play EDH love sol ring.
People who actually know how to debate love not implying someone's opinion that goes against the majority can only be due to lack of skill.
- RMS Oceanic
P.S. Sol Ring is not nearly as good as Thawing Glaciers.
1. There have been more than enough points made that an universal banned list is desirable. I would love to play by one. But since I think it is rather flawed, we chose to play with our own. This doesnt change that I would like an official banned list to play by.
There is one! It's good! If you don't like it, don't follow it, but don't expect the official ban list that applies to everyone to cater to your own goddamn taste.
I think you mean Demolition Man? Different Stallone movie.
Ha... don't write in haste. Yes, I meant Demolition Man. Stallone will always be Judge Dredd to me though. Though... the tone of the comments for this article do almost make me think Judge Dredd might not be so innappropriate.
There is one! It's good! If you don't like it, don't follow it, but don't expect the official ban list that applies to everyone to cater to your own goddamn taste.
I feel like it would help if people in favor of this banning wouldnt be disregarded as insane maniacs; it looks to me like a majority is in favor of sol ring not being banned; I am not claiming anything else; still, it is not a small amount of people who want it to be banned; and I would appreciate it if that minority was at least somewhat listened to, and not completely being flamed and disrespected like you do...
Thanks.
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Sometimes those with the most sin cast the first stones.
Perhaps Commander can survive as an unbalanced format; being casual in nature will certainly help with that. But unbalanced games typically do not survive. Look at Pokemon or Yu-gi-oh. Heck, look at the popularity of Vintage (which may be impossible to balance, but Wizards is trying) compared to Modern or Standard. Look at old Extended. Or Prismatic Stairwell. When games aren't balanced, or can't be balanced, players lose interest.
Not necessarily. People like to compare competitive magic to competitive games like chess or starcraft. I think those comparisons are valid. But I would never compare EDH to those games. The nature of adding players to the game changes it, especially since there aren't teams. Politics are suddenly a giant factor. Have you ever played risk? People do silly stuff in multiplayer games. How many commander games have you seen someone be a kingmaker and choose who will win since they cannot?
In this context it would be more fair to compare EDH/Commander to Monopoly. Now the two dont overlap in many ways but consider whether Boardwalk is too good in Monopoly. Everyone has a chance to own it, but luck will determine who gets it. Some games it will be a big deal, if you can get to it early AND someone lands on it, whereas other games it won't be a very big issue. It is one of the best property to own since you can reap the largest rewards from it. Would Monopoly be more fun without Boardwalk? I mean next you'd start looking at Park Place.
You can make many of your arguments about Sol Ring in the same manner. What about Signets? They fix mana AND accelerate! You can also play up to 10 of them! How broken is that?? If you played 2 signets early you'd be 2 turns ahead of everyone in mana production and could probably cast even the most difficult cards in your deck!
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
As was said, Commander is nota sanctioned format. As such, if your store or playgroup wishes to ban it and there's consensus, then do so! Wizards won't ban it, because in their eyes, it does not war the format.
Stoneforge Mystic was printed in an Event Deck because they fully intended a SFM/Batterskull-themed deck. By their own admission, they didn't intend for Caw-Blade or the prevalence of SFM and swords to begin with. It was an error on their part, but they also only had the span of six months to watch it. EDH has been an "unofficial" format for the better part of...what, five years? Six? More? They've had time to watch what breaks the format and what doesn't. It's why you have the current banlist.
Finally, Commander is not intended to be a 1v1 format. They have plenty of those if you want to play it, and while yes, you can have 1v1 matches if you want, the truth is that you aren't required to play it. It's a multiplayer format, and like it or not that's what they will look at.
EDIT: Looking over both the EDH and Commander banlists, I don't see Sol Ring on there at all, for either format (duel or multiplayer), so your article just lost any and all credibility when you started making stuff up and putting words in Wizards' collective mouths.
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About what if Sol Ring tapped for 3. Guess what ... Mana Vault does that and opens crazy 5-drops on turn 2. Are we going to start banning the monoliths and anything that taps for more mana than their cost?
I love how there were several comments basically saying " You got to run hate against sol ring and thats stupid " .......Ummm this is EDH? Why in the world would you not run artifact removal? I can say that every deck someone plays, there is atleast 1 artifact in the deck. If your not packing the removal for artifacts then I think there's just an issue in the deck. It doesn't even have to be alot, just simple spells.
I'll admit that I have very limited familiarity with the format - only played a couple of games with borrowed decks. However, one of the basic principles of multiplayer Magic is that if I use one card to counter or destroy one of yours then the net result is that everyone else in the game has just gained +1 card advantage against us. While such plays earn "political favour" from the other players, I'd rather being one of those "other players" than down a card. I far prefer to keep my "available resources" as something tangible.
There have been multiple responses to the tone of "you're stupid." That's a childish waste of text. Others have claimed that I don't make any arguments or say anything, which is similarly untrue. In my article I provided counterarguments to several dubious claims that are commonly used when it's suggested that Sol Ring be banned.
Several arguments have been brought up that don't really fall within the scope of my article: political repercussions of casting an early Sol Ring and the disinterest in having a balanced format. It's not really possible to comment rigorously on either, but I would contend that when a ubiquitous card invites backlash for being cast on curve, there is a problem.
A balanced format is a healthy format, and is indicative of good game design. It's not to say that the format is boring, or that only a narrow range of powers are allowed. For example, when Wizards banned Jace, the justification was basically "decks containing Jace made up the majority of the metagame and had a favorable matchup against any deck that didn't play Jace." In other words, Jace was powerful enough to remove competing deckbuilding options from viability.
Since this is a singleton format the effect is less pronounced, but it's plain to see that most decks contain Sol Ring. Decks that contain Sol Ring are better than those that don't. And, regardless of politics, a better deck will in general win more often.
This same argument could be applied to several other cards, most notably Lightning Greaves, Sensei's Divining Top, and Mana Crypt. The effect with Mana Crypt is less pronounced; its scarcity keeps the majority of the field from playing it (maybe that's is all the more reason to ban it, but that's not what we're discussing). Lightning Greaves is certainly very powerful - it's probably the reason that Wizards is now so careful with free equip costs - but doesn't do anything until creatures of consequence start hitting the board. Top is probably the closest comparison; it is ubiquitous, comes down early, and grants a significant advantage to any deck that includes it.
I elected to talk about Sol Ring for several reasons. Most obviously, it's much more powerful than Top. It doesn't reward skill as much as Top. And it's just easier to talk about; for Top you must consider not only the power of the card but also the practicality - on the French (1v1) list it's banned because it slows down games so much. The argument becomes complicated fast.
There was also some argument that other colors need Sol Ring to compete with the tempo that green has access to. This isn't a good argument for several reasons. First, by symmetry, Sol Ring doesn't favor nongreen colors. It's just as likely to give an extra boost to green as it is to help you catch up. In this respect it's pretty similar to the argument, "it helps players catch up when they fall behind." Additionally, green's ability to ramp is key to its color identity. It's supposed to be that way, just like blue is the best at drawing cards and black is the best at killing guys. It may be that green's strengths are most in line with the Commander format, making it seem unfairly advantaged, but that's just the nature of the color pie (incidentally, I think blue is generally considered to be the strongest color in Commander).
It's amazing how you've managed to type so much without actually saying anything. It's like seven paragraphs of "lalalalala I can't hear you!"
Also, I can't believe you just based your argument for banning a mana rock in a casual, singleton multiplayer format with over 10,000 unique cards in the available cardpool on a season of competitive Standard where a card was banned for being a 4-of inclusion that was a key strategic component of every deck containing that card's colors.
The bottom line is, it doesn't fit within the guidelines for banning. Ever. Period. Get over it.
But, whatever. You obviously know better than the people who keep up the format. Since you're so enlightened as to what is best and obviously know that the real intention of the RC is to bring balance to EDH, I suggest you publish a newsletter so that those at the top may subscribe to your line of thought.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
EDIT: Looking over both the EDH and Commander banlists, I don't see Sol Ring on there at all, for either format (duel or multiplayer), so your article just lost any and all credibility when you started making stuff up and putting words in Wizards' collective mouths.
The 1vs1 ban list is also commonly refered to as the french ban list. Seen here. Where the card is indeed banned.
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I would stand by the argument that mana crypt is actually more in line with banning criteria than sol ring is.
The last argument is just because, but the first 2 are true. To skip past this card only to go to sol ring shows that the author seems to have his sights on sol ring for reasons not specifically thought out.
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How you address a hypothetical super-Sol Ring is actually very telling. It divides those who are interested in any balancing of the format from those who are not.
Perhaps Commander can survive as an unbalanced format; being casual in nature will certainly help with that. But unbalanced games typically do not survive. Look at Pokemon or Yu-gi-oh. Heck, look at the popularity of Vintage (which may be impossible to balance, but Wizards is trying) compared to Modern or Standard. Look at old Extended. Or Prismatic Stairwell. When games aren't balanced, or can't be balanced, players lose interest.
It's a fact that Sol Ring is ludicrously powerful. Super-Sol Ring is of course more so, but ordinary Sol Ring is outrageous. Two points are sufficient to show this: (1) Sol Ring goes in every deck. This fact has been written off but not contested. (2) Anyone who casts a first turn Sol Ring is suddenly a threat worth ganging up on. This has been said dozens of times through this thread. That's how it warps the format.
Anyone who believes that Super-Sol Ring should be banned based on power level believes that bannings for power level are admissable. And if anything should be banned for raw power it's Sol Ring.
The claim that I haven't presented any argument that Sol Ring be banned is laughable. The argument is obvious, and it comes from your repeated admissions that Sol Ring is a broken card. Arguments to the contrary are bogus, which was the focus of my article.
Vocal contributors to this thread are certainly very concerned with being inflammatory, but quite uninterested in conversation. It's true that an intelligent conversation about Sol Ring in Commander could be had, but evidently not here. I won't be reading or posting any further. EDIT: Never mind...
I still fail to see how Sol Ring makes the format unbalanced. If everyone is supposedly running it like you claim, then everyone has a FAIR chance of using it. That seems balanced.
Sure Sol Ring is broken, the point is that there are other cards that broken which you are not advocating for their ban. Yes, you have presented an arguement but it lacked any empirical evidence to support your claim.
I'll have a conversation but you need to do a better job of proving your point, and maybe conceding that your arguement is maybe misguided. I thought I was being restrained in my remarks, by no means did i resort to my regular level of inflammatory remarks.
Also: to bail on your own thread and article is truely a cop out. If you are going to advocate for something you damn well better stand up for yourself to the bitter end.
Wow... I guess that is one way to avoid a conversation... I feel that there are some valid points on both sides, and I actually agree with some of what you said. The fact that you are willing to torpedo your entire article with this statement is proof that you either do not want to try and intelligently back up your arguement(which is childish), you already feel that you have 100% without a doubt have proven your article(which is foolish), or you have a family or a job which takes up more time than reading this encyclopedia of responses(which I can understand).
All arguments you have provided regarding the nature of Sol Ring in Commander is based off of anecdotal evidence. Yes, every Commander deck should run Sol Ring. Every Commander deck that runs white should run StP. Should we ban StP? Most commander decks run Sensei's Divining Top. Should we ban the top? probably not.
A turn 2 planeswalker isn't going to occur frequently enough to be a real problem. Forming an argument over such a specific instance is just rather silly on your point.
Your attitude towards everyone else in this thread is appalling. There has been intelligent conversation on this thread. It's just simply been arguing against your point. Right now you sound like Eric Cartman saying 'Screw you guys, I'm going home.'
1.- Don't like it? Don't play it or ban it in your play group.
2.- It's one of 99 cards. The odds of drawing it at first hand is 1:93
3.- It can be tutored? Everything is tutor-able
4.- Moxes are banned? They give colored mana!!! (also cost an eye + kidney). Sol ring doesn't.
5.- Every deck should play it.
6.- Both or all players use it? It's just luck to draw/tutor it first than anyone (see pts 2&3). Group Bannings are optional.
7.- Why ban it for everyone? It's a fun card!!!
Commander, as indicated by the WOTC products released this year indicate that 3 cards are pretty much auto includes in every deck.
Command Tower
Sol Ring
Lightning Greaves
The first is quite possibly the best land for EDH ever printed when considered in the average of all known decks. The seconds is a superb mana accelerator. The third gives your general staying power and an early hit.
All three warp the format by your definition. I want all three in almost any opening hand and are auto includes. All three are above the curve significantly. Why is it only Sol Ring needs to go? Shouldn't all three go if we truly want to be rid of EDH auto includes across all colors?
Seriously though, the first reply to this thread sums up multi-player EDH so well, and is a great example of how EDH is so good at keeping itself in check that its single sentence invalidates the articles entire set of arguments.
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GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
This conversation has devolved into a similar example of gun control arguments. Sure, we can ban guns cause guns kill people. This doesn't negate the fact we should hold the person holding the gun responsible.
If people want to abuse Sol Ring or any other card for the matter, they can. If people were using it to cast second turn Blastoderms, we wouldn't be having this argument. Not everyone plays superpowerful decks. Not everyone plays the most powerful cards ever printed.
Banning Sol Ring would be similar to banning guns or anything else harmful in society. Let's ban fatty foods while we are at it.
Long Live Judge Dredd.
If I'm thinking correctly, odds are closer to 1- (chances you will not draw it) ->
1 - (98/99*97/98*96/97*95/96*94/95*93/94*92/93) ~ 7.1% for a 7 card hand, but still pretty small.
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
No, it's not. You've assumed this entire time that everyone simply accepts Sol Ring as overpowered, but power-level is directly proportional to what a card is capable of in the format it's being discussed in - not the other formats it is or has been legal in. Case and point: Ponder is limited to 1 in Vintage because looking at the top three, possibly shipping all of them, then drawing one for 1 U is borderline absurd in the format. You wouldn't consider banning Ponder in Standard on that point alone.
Not exhaustive, but the point has been made:
And I'd like to throw in my own argument for why I would not want to put Sol Ring into my Riku deck, which is hands down my most competitive deck of what I've got:
Tools needed for the job: -Ramp, Draw, and Time Walk effects for consistency (alt win con is infinite turns with doubling regrowths/recollects/etc)
Looking specifically at ramp:
--Copyable:
-Cultivate, Kodama's Reach
-Explosive Vegetation
-Rampant Growth
-Harrow
-Life from the Loam
-Reap and Sow
-Solemn Simulacrum
-Oracle of Mul Daya
-...A few others, omitted for brevity
--Not Copyable:
-Sol Ring
-Gilded Lotus
-Darksteel Ingot
-Temple of the False Gods
-...Again, a few others
When filtering through these, several must be excluded (or, perhaps I should say only the best can be chosen for inclusion). Sol Ring is quickly dropped from the list because the colorless mana is difficult to use when I'm attempting to cast several spells, all requiring at the very least UG or UR, and probably and additional U, G, or R, if not more.
Additionally, Sol Ring effectively only ramps me 1 within the turn, two on the next turn. All of the green ramp spells can either match this behavior, with color included, or even do better if I double it with Riku.
Granted, these are not all playable turn 1. However, there is no reason I'd want the advantage from Sol Ring when I could cast Exploration or Burgeoning on turn 1 instead, effectively ramping me at least one colored source before my next turn. These would easily take Sol Ring's slot in my deck, and I'd likely feel better having drawn them than drawing Sol Ring in any game.
So, are you satisfied? There are, in fact, quite legitimate reasons why Sol Ring is simply not an auto-include in decks.
That isn't a format warping card, it's a game warping event. It's exactly the same as when someone casts a turn two Luminarch Ascension - of course you're going to get beaten down, but it doesn't make Luminarch Ascension ban-worthy.
This is actually a reasonable point, I'll grant you. However, it still shouldn't be a gutteral, "oh wow that card looks stupid" decision. There should still be real, hard analysis on why Super-Sol Ring is ban-worthy before doing it.
The argument that has been made over and over in this thread is that you've been contending for hard, non-anectdotal evidence why Sol Ring oughtn't be banned, yet you fail to provide anything but hypothetical situations and hand-wavy statistics to prove your own point. Why should we listen to you about Sol Ring being ban worthy when you fail to meet your own criteria for evidence?
1. There have been more than enough points made that an universal banned list is desirable. I would love to play by one. But since I think it is rather flawed, we chose to play with our own. This doesnt change that I would like an official banned list to play by.
2. Besides your math being wrong, the odds of not drawing the card cannot be a reasonable argument against the card. Of course Sol Ring is not broken if no one draws it, duh. It is completely useless to argue about the times where no one draws sol ring, because it is like no one is playing sol ring...the chances of SOMEONE having a turn 1 sol ring on a multiplayer table is definitely high enough to care about.
3. No one complains about it being tutorable specifically...
4. If you are trying to argue that Sol Ring is worse than a mox, you have just shown that you have not comprehended its power level at all.
5. indeed. Thats rather troublesome for a card for such an explosive card.
6. it is likely thatsomeone will have it and everyone else wont. Skewing the game in some random direction every time is not desirable.
7. How is a plow under on everyone else fun? I fail to see that...
Try with any colorless land in your deck. You'll find that Sol Ring is incredibly better. If youre not playing with colorless lands, just look at the worst card in your deck. Its not too hard to find about 95 cards in every deck that could be replaced by sol ring.
In your opinion. Which, has as been demonstrated, in neither shared by the majority nor the people actually in charge of bannings in EDH.
And is SO not shared by the actual creators of Magic: The Gathering - and it seems nearly everyone in R&D plays EDH regularly - that they actually put a sol ring in every single official Commander product.
People who actually know how to play EDH love sol ring.
People who actually know how to debate love not implying someone's opinion that goes against the majority can only be due to lack of skill.
- RMS Oceanic
P.S. Sol Ring is not nearly as good as Thawing Glaciers.
There is one! It's good! If you don't like it, don't follow it, but don't expect the official ban list that applies to everyone to cater to your own goddamn taste.
I think you mean Demolition Man? Different Stallone movie.
Ha... don't write in haste. Yes, I meant Demolition Man. Stallone will always be Judge Dredd to me though. Though... the tone of the comments for this article do almost make me think Judge Dredd might not be so innappropriate.
I'm right. You are wrong. Execution commencing.
I feel like it would help if people in favor of this banning wouldnt be disregarded as insane maniacs; it looks to me like a majority is in favor of sol ring not being banned; I am not claiming anything else; still, it is not a small amount of people who want it to be banned; and I would appreciate it if that minority was at least somewhat listened to, and not completely being flamed and disrespected like you do...
Thanks.
Not necessarily. People like to compare competitive magic to competitive games like chess or starcraft. I think those comparisons are valid. But I would never compare EDH to those games. The nature of adding players to the game changes it, especially since there aren't teams. Politics are suddenly a giant factor. Have you ever played risk? People do silly stuff in multiplayer games. How many commander games have you seen someone be a kingmaker and choose who will win since they cannot?
In this context it would be more fair to compare EDH/Commander to Monopoly. Now the two dont overlap in many ways but consider whether Boardwalk is too good in Monopoly. Everyone has a chance to own it, but luck will determine who gets it. Some games it will be a big deal, if you can get to it early AND someone lands on it, whereas other games it won't be a very big issue. It is one of the best property to own since you can reap the largest rewards from it. Would Monopoly be more fun without Boardwalk? I mean next you'd start looking at Park Place.
You can make many of your arguments about Sol Ring in the same manner. What about Signets? They fix mana AND accelerate! You can also play up to 10 of them! How broken is that?? If you played 2 signets early you'd be 2 turns ahead of everyone in mana production and could probably cast even the most difficult cards in your deck!
Do you see where this is going? Sol Ring is fine.
Please don't act like an elitist snob. Just because someone has a different opinion on the card doesn't mean they don't know how to play.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
Actually, in a way it does. Card evaluation is a necessary skill if you want to play this game well.
Stoneforge Mystic was printed in an Event Deck because they fully intended a SFM/Batterskull-themed deck. By their own admission, they didn't intend for Caw-Blade or the prevalence of SFM and swords to begin with. It was an error on their part, but they also only had the span of six months to watch it. EDH has been an "unofficial" format for the better part of...what, five years? Six? More? They've had time to watch what breaks the format and what doesn't. It's why you have the current banlist.
Finally, Commander is not intended to be a 1v1 format. They have plenty of those if you want to play it, and while yes, you can have 1v1 matches if you want, the truth is that you aren't required to play it. It's a multiplayer format, and like it or not that's what they will look at.
EDIT: Looking over both the EDH and Commander banlists, I don't see Sol Ring on there at all, for either format (duel or multiplayer), so your article just lost any and all credibility when you started making stuff up and putting words in Wizards' collective mouths.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
I'll admit that I have very limited familiarity with the format - only played a couple of games with borrowed decks. However, one of the basic principles of multiplayer Magic is that if I use one card to counter or destroy one of yours then the net result is that everyone else in the game has just gained +1 card advantage against us. While such plays earn "political favour" from the other players, I'd rather being one of those "other players" than down a card. I far prefer to keep my "available resources" as something tangible.
Several arguments have been brought up that don't really fall within the scope of my article: political repercussions of casting an early Sol Ring and the disinterest in having a balanced format. It's not really possible to comment rigorously on either, but I would contend that when a ubiquitous card invites backlash for being cast on curve, there is a problem.
A balanced format is a healthy format, and is indicative of good game design. It's not to say that the format is boring, or that only a narrow range of powers are allowed. For example, when Wizards banned Jace, the justification was basically "decks containing Jace made up the majority of the metagame and had a favorable matchup against any deck that didn't play Jace." In other words, Jace was powerful enough to remove competing deckbuilding options from viability.
Since this is a singleton format the effect is less pronounced, but it's plain to see that most decks contain Sol Ring. Decks that contain Sol Ring are better than those that don't. And, regardless of politics, a better deck will in general win more often.
This same argument could be applied to several other cards, most notably Lightning Greaves, Sensei's Divining Top, and Mana Crypt. The effect with Mana Crypt is less pronounced; its scarcity keeps the majority of the field from playing it (maybe that's is all the more reason to ban it, but that's not what we're discussing). Lightning Greaves is certainly very powerful - it's probably the reason that Wizards is now so careful with free equip costs - but doesn't do anything until creatures of consequence start hitting the board. Top is probably the closest comparison; it is ubiquitous, comes down early, and grants a significant advantage to any deck that includes it.
I elected to talk about Sol Ring for several reasons. Most obviously, it's much more powerful than Top. It doesn't reward skill as much as Top. And it's just easier to talk about; for Top you must consider not only the power of the card but also the practicality - on the French (1v1) list it's banned because it slows down games so much. The argument becomes complicated fast.
There was also some argument that other colors need Sol Ring to compete with the tempo that green has access to. This isn't a good argument for several reasons. First, by symmetry, Sol Ring doesn't favor nongreen colors. It's just as likely to give an extra boost to green as it is to help you catch up. In this respect it's pretty similar to the argument, "it helps players catch up when they fall behind." Additionally, green's ability to ramp is key to its color identity. It's supposed to be that way, just like blue is the best at drawing cards and black is the best at killing guys. It may be that green's strengths are most in line with the Commander format, making it seem unfairly advantaged, but that's just the nature of the color pie (incidentally, I think blue is generally considered to be the strongest color in Commander).
Also, I can't believe you just based your argument for banning a mana rock in a casual, singleton multiplayer format with over 10,000 unique cards in the available cardpool on a season of competitive Standard where a card was banned for being a 4-of inclusion that was a key strategic component of every deck containing that card's colors.
The bottom line is, it doesn't fit within the guidelines for banning. Ever. Period. Get over it.
But, whatever. You obviously know better than the people who keep up the format. Since you're so enlightened as to what is best and obviously know that the real intention of the RC is to bring balance to EDH, I suggest you publish a newsletter so that those at the top may subscribe to your line of thought.
The 1vs1 ban list is also commonly refered to as the french ban list. Seen here. Where the card is indeed banned.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor