This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Good Game: Are You Thrilled?. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
excellent article as allways andrew. was wondering, if you do but the blue in, would you be against just going ahead and making it domain zoo (adding a black source)?
excellent article as allways andrew. was wondering, if you do but the blue in, would you be against just going ahead and making it domain zoo (adding a black source)?
Yes I would, and here's why: You can only really expect to see about three lands with this deck (of course, you do see more many times), which means that if you try to stretch out the base to all five colors, you're going to have the problems of not being able to play more than one to two spells a turn. It sucks when playing your Goyf ties up your red source, too, or playing a Helix/Path means no green for you. As for the Blue source, it would most likely be the third land you'd fetch up, so that you'd have 2 sources of red, 2 sources of green or white, 1 source of the other, and 1 blue source. Of course, the contents of your opening hand could change this.
Running even that 4th color, even if it's just one land, can stretch the manabase a little, and so I would certainly not advocate stretching it to a fifth (not in this build, at least).
Love the deck. It is very very cool, really aggressive and plays my two favourite hateful bears. I did have a few questions / things you may want to consider.
- Kird Ape vs Goblin Guide
If you are playing an extremely aggressive list like yours, then the Guide simply does more damage faster. The difference between 2 and 3 toughness is virtually negligible in the format - I think the only cards which care are Punishing Fire and opposing Kird Apes. Really, it's the Thrills that make me want to run Guide over Ape as they work really hard to overcome the low toughness.
- 4 Thrill
I don't love playing 4 copies of a pretty reactive card which doesn't really win you the game. I would suggest that 3 is plenty as while very rarely totally dead the card kind of sucks against non-red decks like Scapeshift, Depths and especially Tezzeret. It's a two-mana Shock that can be countered by removal which is not exactly Zoo material. While I do think that its power in good matchups and the fact it at least does something in bad matchups make it maindeck worthy, I wouldn't play four. Also, the double-Thrill hand must suck (and triple does not bear thinking about).
- Burst Lightning vs Tribal Flames
It's worth thinking about - 1R is so much less than 4R, and it lets you play your Island main and get another sideboard slot. Your earlier arguments about awkward mana are reasonable, but if you need 5 lands in play to kick the Burst then you could probably Tribal for 4. A Swamp would be cool but Tribal for 4 is I think still better than Burst Lightning.
- Spell Pierce vs Negate
Most of the time the former is better - it's way less obvious and lets you play more guys and still hold up counters. The only time it's worse is against cheap spot removal I guess, but you have Thrill for that if it's red so it's only really worse against Path in Tezzeret (you would play neither against Zoo). It still counters sweepers and Scapeshifts, and what more do you want? Either way, I'm pretty sure I like Mana Leak more than Negate as it can randomly just be better and is rarely worse.
Interesting arguments. As for the Guide vs. Ape, I like the Ape because he can't be punishing fired. Your argument that the Thrill saves him has some merit, but I don't always have a Thrill. And to make that matchup, which is probably going to be one of the hardest, the best, I think I need to take away as much advantage from Rubin as I can.
Plus, if I were to go to three Thrills, the Guide would be getting a lot worse.
As for the Tribal Flames vs. Burst Lightning, that's interesting. I suppose I never really thought about, and the only thing that Burst Lightning would then have over the Flames is that it can be a 1 CMC burn at instant speed...which does not necessarily make it better than the Flames. Of course, Flames will pump goyf...but then, I could also run a Black source...err...I will think on that.
As for Spell Pierce, it's just not a hard counter. It'll never actually counter Scapeshift (they play that card when they have 7 or more land in play...), and it'll never actually counter an engineered explosives--it'll just delay the activation for one turn. At least the Negate will always cost my opponent a card, even if it's just a counter to counter the Negate.
PS Thrill actually wrecks Scapeshift because they run Firespout for defense and Teeg hate.
I agree with Stevo, in regards to 4 Thrill being a bad call. I could almost understand them if you were playing Doran in your zoo deck (black splash instead of blue).
Also at Stevo: You'll never counter a Scapeshift with Spell Pierce. Obviously it's not getting cast unless the player has 7 or more lands, which means they'll have at least 3 mana available with Scapeshift on the stack. Mana Leak probably won't work either, so I ageree with the author on Negate. Other spells that Spell Pierce probably won't counter: Engineered Explosives, Thopter Foundry, Umezawa's Jitte.
The Tribal Flames idea is really hot, and I want to test your list with Flames, and maybe maindeck -2 Thrill, +2 Lightning Helix, with the Steam Vent and maybe one B/X dual. Probably Blood Crypt. Bonus for going domain: Tribal Flames now kills Bane$layer Angel. Now THAT's hot.
I'm pretty sure Rubin Zoo (which isn't even actual zoo imo) is not really good against true zoo decks since regular zoo decks run more aggressive creatures, have a lower curve and run more and in domain zoo's case better burn spells. I don't think Thrill of the Hunt is necessarily needed though it is a good combat trick.
Nice article, props to using thrill, I've been trying to shoehorn vines of vastwood into zoo, but it never seems to do enough, I reckon thrill might be work a look.
On your deck however, how is 20 land treating you? Seems a little low...
@ everyone: dur dur dur of course Spell Pierce never hits a Scapeshift, my bad. Yeah play Negate, I've just gotten used to playing Spell Pierce in Affinity where Explosives is pretty terrible against you and you need to counter Wrath of God, and Scapeshift is far too slow and you need to counter Fracturing Gust.
@ Andrew: I certainly understand that for you, dying to Punishing Fire is a big strike against Guide. I just really like him because haste is a really big deal against sweepers (except Explosives for 1) and on turn 1, and I think it is worth noting that while PTQ grinders may not catch up with the latest tech, most pros/writers have lately preferred their Big Zoo decks to have Bant Charms rather than Punishing Grove and if they do this I would say Guide is better. Anyway, I'm not certain and it's your call
@ Yagami: You are correct that Rubin Zoo is not actually Zoo; it simply runs a number of cards in common. However, it certainly beats up on real Zoo. The old adage that you beat a mirror by going a little bit bigger or a lot faster shows its worth - Rubin Zoo is not that much slower than real Zoo that it gets stomped by it before it plays any spells, and going into the long game it has Baneslayers and either the machinegun of Punishing Grove or more Paths in the form of Bant Charms. In Zoo mirrors, it is certainly true that the last fatty wins and having more fatties and ways to kill them helps Rubin Zoo vastly (note that Andrew hopes to achieve the same thing with Thrills). Further, Rubin Zoo plays few cards that are bad in the mirror like Kird Ape, which almost always comes out as every single card in both decks trumps it.
Excellent article. Very well thought out. I would probably run this deck myself, but alas, I've been away from the game, so I lack playsets of everything past Tenth. I guess my PTQ aspirations must go on hold until next season. *sigh*
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Just to point out the Bloodchief Ascension issue: it doesn't actually sit there for 3 turns, more for 1.5 turns, since it triggers during both player's end steps.
Just to point out the Bloodchief Ascension issue: it doesn't actually sit there for 3 turns, more for 1.5 turns, since it triggers during both player's end steps.
It will only every be 1.5 turns if you have the mana to do damage or get an attack. If you cast it turn 1, it does nothing until your second turn, and then only if you have some way to cause damage. If you forced into defence mode, it will do nothing again for another turn. At best Bloodchief Ascension is only good from turn three, by then it could be too late in a fast environment.
Umezawa's Jitte does literally everything that Thrill of the Hunt does, but much better. I understand that obv one costs two and one costs one and is an instant, but honestly think about how much better a live Jitte is as opposed to, uhm, having a Thrill in the 'yard. I mean, I'd honestly rather lose a guy or two to a Lightning Bolt or what have you if it means that I get to keep a Jitte on the table. And if they decide to blow it up with Qasali Pridemage, then they lose a dude and I gain some life at the worst.
I think you should definitely consider playing 2-3 of that card long before playing Thrill of the Hunt. Thrill was VERY good in TSP Block because it made Tarmogoyf wars end much faster, but it never could compete with Umezawa's Jitte or even Gaea's Might in the actual Zoo deck.
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Umezawa's Jitte does literally everything that Thrill of the Hunt does, but much better. I understand that obv one costs two and one costs one and is an instant, but honestly think about how much better a live Jitte is as opposed to, uhm, having a Thrill in the 'yard. I mean, I'd honestly rather lose a guy or two to a Lightning Bolt or what have you if it means that I get to keep a Jitte on the table. And if they decide to blow it up with Qasali Pridemage, then they lose a dude and I gain some life at the worst.
I think you should definitely consider playing 2-3 of that card long before playing Thrill of the Hunt. Thrill was VERY good in TSP Block because it made Tarmogoyf wars end much faster, but it never could compete with Umezawa's Jitte or even Gaea's Might in the actual Zoo deck.
With the speed that extended is getting, Jitte is too slow, and there is always Ancient Grudge too worry about. Also I don't get why some people here are saying to use less than 4 of Thrill in the deck. If you less than 4 you will have less chance of drawing it, thereby defeating the purpose of having it in your deck. You want Thrill to be in your hand, else you might as well remove all 4 and use something else. Thrill ups your spell count and thus allowing you do more with what you have.
With the speed that extended is getting, Jitte is too slow, and there is always Ancient Grudge too worry about. Also I don't get why some people here are saying to use less than 4 of Thrill in the deck. If you less than 4 you will have less chance of drawing it, thereby defeating the purpose of having it in your deck. You want Thrill to be in your hand, else you might as well remove all 4 and use something else. Thrill ups your spell count and thus allowing you do more with what you have.
Ancient Grudge when the only artifact in the deck is Umezawa's Jitte? Further, how is Jitte too slow when the Zoo decks are playing five-mana creatures? How much of this format have you played?
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Shin: The problem with the Jitte is getting it online. To get the equipment online, you actually have to pay 4 mana (though not all at once), which is quite a bit, and then get your creature to connect. Playing and equipping a Jitte is a slow affair, and the whole point of the Thrills is to have something that saves your creatures in the early game (turns 2-4). I mean, dropping Nacatl turn one, then Jitte turn two, then trying to equip it turn three (do I even have a creature still?) is really slow. Especially against Rubin, if they just took the 3 from the Nacatl on turn two, and are holding burn to take him out when I try to equip, I'm screwed.
Again, the point of the thrill is to let me keep pressure on Rubin in the early game, when my deck is better than theirs. Jitte doesn't do that. It keeps pressure up in the late game, when it turns every creature I topdeck into a house (as long as it has counters on it). Jitte is good, but it's for a different strategy than what my Zoo deck was going for.
I have been trying to run Jitte in my Domain Zoo and have come to the conclusion that it is, in fact, too slow for the format. Basically what waterboy said about needing total four mana... it's only a good draw when i've got four lands and most of the time is still not particularly amazing then. And I agree that Zoo decks running Baneslayer aren't really Zoo, at least in extended. 5cmc is just too slow.
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Yes I would, and here's why: You can only really expect to see about three lands with this deck (of course, you do see more many times), which means that if you try to stretch out the base to all five colors, you're going to have the problems of not being able to play more than one to two spells a turn. It sucks when playing your Goyf ties up your red source, too, or playing a Helix/Path means no green for you. As for the Blue source, it would most likely be the third land you'd fetch up, so that you'd have 2 sources of red, 2 sources of green or white, 1 source of the other, and 1 blue source. Of course, the contents of your opening hand could change this.
Running even that 4th color, even if it's just one land, can stretch the manabase a little, and so I would certainly not advocate stretching it to a fifth (not in this build, at least).
- Kird Ape vs Goblin Guide
If you are playing an extremely aggressive list like yours, then the Guide simply does more damage faster. The difference between 2 and 3 toughness is virtually negligible in the format - I think the only cards which care are Punishing Fire and opposing Kird Apes. Really, it's the Thrills that make me want to run Guide over Ape as they work really hard to overcome the low toughness.
- 4 Thrill
I don't love playing 4 copies of a pretty reactive card which doesn't really win you the game. I would suggest that 3 is plenty as while very rarely totally dead the card kind of sucks against non-red decks like Scapeshift, Depths and especially Tezzeret. It's a two-mana Shock that can be countered by removal which is not exactly Zoo material. While I do think that its power in good matchups and the fact it at least does something in bad matchups make it maindeck worthy, I wouldn't play four. Also, the double-Thrill hand must suck (and triple does not bear thinking about).
- Burst Lightning vs Tribal Flames
It's worth thinking about - 1R is so much less than 4R, and it lets you play your Island main and get another sideboard slot. Your earlier arguments about awkward mana are reasonable, but if you need 5 lands in play to kick the Burst then you could probably Tribal for 4. A Swamp would be cool but Tribal for 4 is I think still better than Burst Lightning.
- Spell Pierce vs Negate
Most of the time the former is better - it's way less obvious and lets you play more guys and still hold up counters. The only time it's worse is against cheap spot removal I guess, but you have Thrill for that if it's red so it's only really worse against Path in Tezzeret (you would play neither against Zoo). It still counters sweepers and Scapeshifts, and what more do you want? Either way, I'm pretty sure I like Mana Leak more than Negate as it can randomly just be better and is rarely worse.
Interesting arguments. As for the Guide vs. Ape, I like the Ape because he can't be punishing fired. Your argument that the Thrill saves him has some merit, but I don't always have a Thrill. And to make that matchup, which is probably going to be one of the hardest, the best, I think I need to take away as much advantage from Rubin as I can.
Plus, if I were to go to three Thrills, the Guide would be getting a lot worse.
As for the Tribal Flames vs. Burst Lightning, that's interesting. I suppose I never really thought about, and the only thing that Burst Lightning would then have over the Flames is that it can be a 1 CMC burn at instant speed...which does not necessarily make it better than the Flames. Of course, Flames will pump goyf...but then, I could also run a Black source...err...I will think on that.
As for Spell Pierce, it's just not a hard counter. It'll never actually counter Scapeshift (they play that card when they have 7 or more land in play...), and it'll never actually counter an engineered explosives--it'll just delay the activation for one turn. At least the Negate will always cost my opponent a card, even if it's just a counter to counter the Negate.
PS Thrill actually wrecks Scapeshift because they run Firespout for defense and Teeg hate.
I agree with Stevo, in regards to 4 Thrill being a bad call. I could almost understand them if you were playing Doran in your zoo deck (black splash instead of blue).
Also at Stevo: You'll never counter a Scapeshift with Spell Pierce. Obviously it's not getting cast unless the player has 7 or more lands, which means they'll have at least 3 mana available with Scapeshift on the stack. Mana Leak probably won't work either, so I ageree with the author on Negate. Other spells that Spell Pierce probably won't counter: Engineered Explosives, Thopter Foundry, Umezawa's Jitte.
The Tribal Flames idea is really hot, and I want to test your list with Flames, and maybe maindeck -2 Thrill, +2 Lightning Helix, with the Steam Vent and maybe one B/X dual. Probably Blood Crypt. Bonus for going domain: Tribal Flames now kills Bane$layer Angel. Now THAT's hot.
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On your deck however, how is 20 land treating you? Seems a little low...
@ Andrew: I certainly understand that for you, dying to Punishing Fire is a big strike against Guide. I just really like him because haste is a really big deal against sweepers (except Explosives for 1) and on turn 1, and I think it is worth noting that while PTQ grinders may not catch up with the latest tech, most pros/writers have lately preferred their Big Zoo decks to have Bant Charms rather than Punishing Grove and if they do this I would say Guide is better. Anyway, I'm not certain and it's your call
@ Yagami: You are correct that Rubin Zoo is not actually Zoo; it simply runs a number of cards in common. However, it certainly beats up on real Zoo. The old adage that you beat a mirror by going a little bit bigger or a lot faster shows its worth - Rubin Zoo is not that much slower than real Zoo that it gets stomped by it before it plays any spells, and going into the long game it has Baneslayers and either the machinegun of Punishing Grove or more Paths in the form of Bant Charms. In Zoo mirrors, it is certainly true that the last fatty wins and having more fatties and ways to kill them helps Rubin Zoo vastly (note that Andrew hopes to achieve the same thing with Thrills). Further, Rubin Zoo plays few cards that are bad in the mirror like Kird Ape, which almost always comes out as every single card in both decks trumps it.
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It will only every be 1.5 turns if you have the mana to do damage or get an attack. If you cast it turn 1, it does nothing until your second turn, and then only if you have some way to cause damage. If you forced into defence mode, it will do nothing again for another turn. At best Bloodchief Ascension is only good from turn three, by then it could be too late in a fast environment.
I think you should definitely consider playing 2-3 of that card long before playing Thrill of the Hunt. Thrill was VERY good in TSP Block because it made Tarmogoyf wars end much faster, but it never could compete with Umezawa's Jitte or even Gaea's Might in the actual Zoo deck.
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With the speed that extended is getting, Jitte is too slow, and there is always Ancient Grudge too worry about. Also I don't get why some people here are saying to use less than 4 of Thrill in the deck. If you less than 4 you will have less chance of drawing it, thereby defeating the purpose of having it in your deck. You want Thrill to be in your hand, else you might as well remove all 4 and use something else. Thrill ups your spell count and thus allowing you do more with what you have.
Ancient Grudge when the only artifact in the deck is Umezawa's Jitte? Further, how is Jitte too slow when the Zoo decks are playing five-mana creatures? How much of this format have you played?
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Again, the point of the thrill is to let me keep pressure on Rubin in the early game, when my deck is better than theirs. Jitte doesn't do that. It keeps pressure up in the late game, when it turns every creature I topdeck into a house (as long as it has counters on it). Jitte is good, but it's for a different strategy than what my Zoo deck was going for.