This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Cranial Insertion: In All Likelihood. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
Q: In a Two-Headed Giant game, and I played Thoughtseize on one of my opponents. He said I was the only one who could look at his hand, but I thought my teammate should be able to look too. What's the ruling?
A: Playing strictly by the rules, he's right. The spell lets you look at his hand, but nobody else.
As a practical matter, though, it's kind of pointless to stick to the strict ruling here. Teammates in a 2HG game are permitted to talk to one another freely, and there's nothing to stop you from telling your teammate exactly what's in your opponent's hand. If I were the judge in this situation, I'd allow your teammate to look.
Really? Even though Thoughtseize says "reveals" and not "look at?"
Reveal: To reveal an object is to show that object to all players. If a one-shot effect reveals a card, the card is returned to its former state after all players have seen it. If the cost to play a spell or ability includes revealing a card, the card remains revealed from the time the spell or ability is announced until it leaves the stack.
The article would be correct if we replace Thoughtseize with something like Peek, which does say 'Look at target player's hand'
Q: If my opponent activates Sensei's Divining Top, does he have to tell me whether or not he's rearranging the cards before he puts them back?
A: No. The order in which your opponent puts cards back on top of his library is private information. If you ask him for that information, he's not obligated to answer, and if he does, the answer doesn't have to be truthful.
Is this the same for Scry? Say I play Foresee... do I need to tell my opponent (if asked) how many cards I put on the bottom?
Really? Even though Thoughtseize says "reveals" and not "look at?"
No; the original question had an esoteric older card, and someone switched it out along the way for a card we all know and love - one with unfortunately different Oracle text.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
A: The Sword will attach to your creature just fine, because there's nothing to prevent that from happening. Once it's attached, though, we check state-based effects and see a black permanent equipping a creature with protection from black, so it gets unattached.
Except that the creature doesn't have protection until after the equipment is attached. Therefore it is perfectly legal to target the creature with the Sword. It will just fall once it gains protection.
If an effect requires a player to choose a source of damage, he or she may choose a permanent, a spell on the stack (including one that creates a permanent), or any object referred to by an object on the stack (including a creature that assigned combat damage on the stack, even if the creature is no longer in play or is no longer a creature). A source doesn't need to be capable of dealing damage to be a legal choice. See rule 419.8, "Sources of Damage."
A: No player receives priority between when creatures get eaten and when the Hellion comes into play, so all of the associated triggers go on the stack in the order of your choice. Depending on what you want to do, you could have your creature pop into a freshly incinerated battlefield or just let him die again.
Somehow I must be wrong, but this seems incorrect to me. I need to know why.
Unless Im mistaken, the devour trigger uses the stack. So before Hellion isn't even in play, it's trigger goes on the stack. Then, DURING RESOLUTION you choose all the creatures you will eat. They are eaten. They go to the graveyard. Lo and behold, a creature has persist and persist triggers. But since the game is still resolving an ability, that effect cannot be added to the stack and waits patiently until the devouring is over to THEN be put on the stack. So the Hellion's devour would finish resolving. Then the persist trigger does go on the stack, the creature comes back and is put in play. But it is too late to chomp on it again Id think, since devour is done. (Just making sure I understand this correctly.)
That seems to be what you said in the first sentence, but then the second one doesnt make sense to me. I dont see how it could "die again" (unless you mean something other than devoured / dealt damage by the Helion when you say die again?). So what is this whole dying thing?
Confused.
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"The almighty tells me he can get me out of this mess ... but he's pretty sure, your f*****!"
Somehow I must be wrong, but this seems incorrect to me. I need to know why.
Unless Im mistaken, the devour trigger uses the stack.
You are mistaken.
So before Hellion isn't even in play, it's trigger goes on the stack.
Devour is a static ability that creates a replacement effect. There is no trigger (no "when," "whenever," or "at.") It replaces the event of coming into play with a modified event. You choose what to "eat" as it comes into play.
502.82. Devour
502.82a Devour is a static ability. "Devour N" means "As this object comes into play, you may sacrifice any number of creatures. This permanent comes into play with N +1/+1 counters on it for each creature sacrificed this way."
502.82b Some objects have abilities that refer to the number of creatures the permanent devoured. "It devoured" means "sacrificed as a result of its devour ability as it came into play."
502.82a Devour is a static ability. "Devour N" means "As this object comes into play, you may sacrifice any number of creatures. This permanent comes into play with N +1/+1 counters on it for each creature sacrificed this way."
Hmmkay. My bad about the stack I guess.
So does this mean that if during the devouring other abilities are triggered (or even cast) they resolve and devour keeps on going (it can sacrifice other creatures)?
Or do you still have to choose all creatures to sacrifice at one single moment in time? I dont have the comp. rules on this computer to search further in 502.
Might be my interpretation of the text but the original wording of the answer still doesn't clear this up for me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The almighty tells me he can get me out of this mess ... but he's pretty sure, your f*****!"
So does this mean that if during the devouring other abilities are triggered (or even cast) they resolve and devour keeps on going (it can sacrifice other creatures)?
Devour is one action. Although abilities might trigger during the process of devouring, they will not go on the stack until just before either player would receive priority, after all the creatures have been devoured and after the creature has come into play.
You cannot play spells or abilities while devouring because you do not get priority.
Might be my interpretation of the text but the original wording of the answer still doesn't clear this up for me.
How are you interpreting the text to cause you to think this way? When devour tells you to "sacrifice any number of creatures" you do precisely that, do not pass go, do not collect $200, and do not do other things "in between."
Ill try to clarify what I mean. In the article, the answer says
Depending on what you want to do, you could have your creature pop into a freshly incinerated battlefield or just let him die again.
I just dont see how you have a choice about your persist creatures coming back. They are devoured, and after devour finishes they come back from the graveyard. Period.
That's what I thought at first myself but because the texts says they can come back "into a freshly incinerated field" OR "just to die again", I was trying to figure out how you could eat them twice or do some kind of shenanigans with the trigger in order to make it possible to CHOOSE between both options.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The almighty tells me he can get me out of this mess ... but he's pretty sure, your f*****!"
Ill try to clarify what I mean. In the article, the answer says
I just dont see how you have a choice about your persist creatures coming back. They are devoured, and after devour finishes they come back from the graveyard. Period.
That's what I thought at first myself but because the texts says they can come back "into a freshly incinerated field" OR "just to die again", I was trying to figure out how you could eat them twice or do some kind of shenanigans with the trigger in order to make it possible to CHOOSE between both options.
The question is regards to Caldera Hellion, which has a citp trigger to deal 3 damage to all creatures, hence the "incinerated battlefield" reference. You can stack the Hellion trigger and any persist triggers from creatures it devoured in whatever order you prefer so that they persist back into play before or after the Hellion deals 3 damage.
If the cost to play a spell or ability includes revealing a card, the card remains revealed from the time the spell or ability is announced until it leaves the stack.
Really? Even though Thoughtseize says "reveals" and not "look at?"
Reveal: To reveal an object is to show that object to all players. If a one-shot effect reveals a card, the card is returned to its former state after all players have seen it. If the cost to play a spell or ability includes revealing a card, the card remains revealed from the time the spell or ability is announced until it leaves the stack.
The article would be correct if we replace Thoughtseize with something like Peek, which does say 'Look at target player's hand'
Is this the same for Scry? Say I play Foresee... do I need to tell my opponent (if asked) how many cards I put on the bottom?
*Mayreturn*
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No; the original question had an esoteric older card, and someone switched it out along the way for a card we all know and love - one with unfortunately different Oracle text.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Except that the creature doesn't have protection until after the equipment is attached. Therefore it is perfectly legal to target the creature with the Sword. It will just fall once it gains protection.
If an effect requires a player to choose a source of damage, he or she may choose a permanent, a spell on the stack (including one that creates a permanent), or any object referred to by an object on the stack (including a creature that assigned combat damage on the stack, even if the creature is no longer in play or is no longer a creature). A source doesn't need to be capable of dealing damage to be a legal choice. See rule 419.8, "Sources of Damage."
Unless Im mistaken, the devour trigger uses the stack. So before Hellion isn't even in play, it's trigger goes on the stack. Then, DURING RESOLUTION you choose all the creatures you will eat. They are eaten. They go to the graveyard. Lo and behold, a creature has persist and persist triggers. But since the game is still resolving an ability, that effect cannot be added to the stack and waits patiently until the devouring is over to THEN be put on the stack. So the Hellion's devour would finish resolving. Then the persist trigger does go on the stack, the creature comes back and is put in play. But it is too late to chomp on it again Id think, since devour is done. (Just making sure I understand this correctly.)
That seems to be what you said in the first sentence, but then the second one doesnt make sense to me. I dont see how it could "die again" (unless you mean something other than devoured / dealt damage by the Helion when you say die again?). So what is this whole dying thing?
Confused.
You are mistaken.
Devour is a static ability that creates a replacement effect. There is no trigger (no "when," "whenever," or "at.") It replaces the event of coming into play with a modified event. You choose what to "eat" as it comes into play.
502.82. Devour
Hmmkay. My bad about the stack I guess.
So does this mean that if during the devouring other abilities are triggered (or even cast) they resolve and devour keeps on going (it can sacrifice other creatures)?
Or do you still have to choose all creatures to sacrifice at one single moment in time? I dont have the comp. rules on this computer to search further in 502.
Might be my interpretation of the text but the original wording of the answer still doesn't clear this up for me.
Devour is one action. Although abilities might trigger during the process of devouring, they will not go on the stack until just before either player would receive priority, after all the creatures have been devoured and after the creature has come into play.
You cannot play spells or abilities while devouring because you do not get priority.
How are you interpreting the text to cause you to think this way? When devour tells you to "sacrifice any number of creatures" you do precisely that, do not pass go, do not collect $200, and do not do other things "in between."
I just dont see how you have a choice about your persist creatures coming back. They are devoured, and after devour finishes they come back from the graveyard. Period.
That's what I thought at first myself but because the texts says they can come back "into a freshly incinerated field" OR "just to die again", I was trying to figure out how you could eat them twice or do some kind of shenanigans with the trigger in order to make it possible to CHOOSE between both options.
The question is regards to Caldera Hellion, which has a citp trigger to deal 3 damage to all creatures, hence the "incinerated battlefield" reference. You can stack the Hellion trigger and any persist triggers from creatures it devoured in whatever order you prefer so that they persist back into play before or after the Hellion deals 3 damage.
Got it. Tks.
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