This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, The Whole Nine Cards: Lorwyn in Vintage. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
Massacre is the common answer for many decks to Fish; it cleans out Meddling Mages and True Believers for free.
Great job on this Jank Golem... I think the real test of this set is going to be if it provides a solid answer for Gush which is pretty much dominating this format. (Seven of the top 8 decks at the last SCG power 9 were running 4 Gush, and the Vintage Worlds finals was a GAT mirror.)
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Excellent article but I would question the inclusion of Sower of Temptation and Stutterspell Sprite. Both paragraphs extolled relative virtues only to finish with: This won't see play.
I don't see anything wrong with the way he approached Sower/Sprite. He acknowledged the possibility of both cards, and then explained why you shouldn't play them. This seems much better than just ignoring them entirely.
I don't follow Vintage much, but I thoroughly enjoyed this article. It was thoughtful and well-presented, making it easy to follow along with. Plus, the explanation inherent with each card made it easy to keep up with the article, even if you're not a Vintage player. One of the best articles I have read on here, for sure.
I don't play Vintage really but I read this article anyway. As far as my limited knowledge goes, seems like a great job. Good to read too. Good job. (Also loved the name)
Half, or more, of these cards will never see play in Vintage.
Thoughtseize (of course) will. Thorn of Amethyst might in Fish.dec.
One comment that I wanted to make is that there haven't been any good options since Mirrodin for anything except Fish. Does this reek of poor design to anyone else? There are niches in Vintage (ask Smmenen) that can be explored that won't jank other Constructed formats. But, Wizards, instead, simply ignores them and keeps shoving creatures down our throats for set after set...
Thanks, guys. We all love the lowest common denominator.
Harkius
Dude, where have you been?
Look at the list of cards only from Ravnica, Coldsnap and Time Spiral that saw play in Vintage/Legacy:
Tarmogoyf
Leyline of the Void
Jotun Grunt
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Dark Confidant
Golgari Gravetroll & Stinkweed Imp
Protean Hulk
Virulent Sliver
Flamekin Zealot
Dread Return
That's only the list off the top of my head (I have class). I'll try and finish it off sometime, but I only know from watching people play, so
Excellent article but I would question the inclusion of Sower of Temptation and Stutterspell Sprite. Both paragraphs extolled relative virtues only to finish with: This won't see play.
There are two reasons I chose to include Sower and Sprite. On their face both cards seem borderline playable, so they deserve some sort of explanation. Secondly both cards have been discussed online and added to tentative decklists; so they have some relevancy.
Poor Portent. It really wants to be considered as one of the top cantrips, but alas, it doesn't even get a mention over Opt.
Portent is something to consider, but I cannot see it being played because it is a slow trip. The only deck that plays non Brainstorm cantrips is GAT which does not need to screw over the opponents topdecks. GAT does want their card right here, right now, not a turn later after missing a crucial land drop or spell.
Half, or more, of these cards will never see play in Vintage.
Thoughtseize (of course) will. Thorn of Amethyst might in Fish.dec.
One comment that I wanted to make is that there haven't been any good options since Mirrodin for anything except Fish. Does this reek of poor design to anyone else? There are niches in Vintage (ask Smmenen) that can be explored that won't jank other Constructed formats. But, Wizards, instead, simply ignores them and keeps shoving creatures down our throats for set after set...
Thanks, guys. We all love the lowest common denominator.
Harkius
Thorn will not see play in every Fish deck, but decks abusing mana denial and the other nine available sphere effects will want it. Wizards gives a few gems to Vintage every set, enough to prevent Vintage from becoming stagnant but still preserving it's integrity.
This is a well written article.
And the cards chosen do make sense.
There were cards on the list that I did indeed overlook. That being said:
I just have to ask, why was Forced Fruition not in the top 9? I primarily play Type 1 all the time as well as my friends. We've been playing since Dark came out and when a new set comes out, we look through the set for Type 1 power cards. This is the only card that just jumped out at us besides the Planeswalkers.
This is a well written article.
And the cards chosen do make sense.
There were cards on the list that I did indeed overlook. That being said:
I just have to ask, why was Forced Fruition not in the top 9? I primarily play Type 1 all the time as well as my friends. We've been playing since Dark came out and when a new set comes out, we look through the set for Type 1 power cards. This is the only card that just jumped out at us besides the Planeswalkers.
Have a nice day.
I can think of a couple of reasons:
1) It actually helps decks like manaless Ichorid, which aren't going to play enough spells to deck themselves, but can use the free draws they'll get from playing Dread Return to dredge into a win.
2) It's doesn't immediately win you the game, which any CMC 6 spell in the format that you have to hard cast should do. (Compare to Mind's Desire and Yawgmoth's Bargain, which effectively guarantee you win the turn you resolve them.)
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-gaddock teeg is underwhelming. marginaly disrupting, and legendary is substantial drawback, making him guaranteed vulnerable to chain of vapor and spot removal.
-spellstutter sprite is a fine fish card. the most broken cards are broken specifically bc they cost 0 or 1. the tempo advantage of just throwing this guy down to snipe off a brainstorm is worth it.
-mirror entity is not cheap. jotun grunt and t-goyf are good bc you put 2 mana into them and they beat face for 4+ etc. m entity is a mana sink, and thus unplayable.
-ponder is solid for gat.
-rings of brithearth is kiddy stuff. if your playing metalworker you have 2 card win already w staff of domination. theres no way the interaction w fetch/wastes etc is worth continualy paying 2mana.
-sower of temptation is imo strictly worse than control magic. enchantments are by far the most durable permanents. if you stole a darksteel, for example, you want to be as confident as possible it will stay on your side.
-eyes of wisent is probably scary for blue decks, but the problem is if your playing green based fish, theres not that much you are doing that a good control player will feel the need to counter. this is easily played around.
I would add moonglove extract to the list. Ive heard talk of this as sb material for workshop decks that dont want barbarian ring for some reason. weldable shock. free activation might make it playable where pyrite spellbomb was not.
I would be surprised to see anything other than thoughtseize, thorn, ponder, and spellstutter appearing in tier decks.
Mirror Entity is decent...but sadly probably too mana intensive, like vroman said. However, it arguably does speed up your beatdown clock and is probably great in the mirror...*shrugs* Time will tell whether it's good or not.
I remember there was a time when people said Skullclamp wasn't broken. Those people have since "moved" on to playing Pokemon cards. Go figure.
Since I rip on almost every article that goes up on this site, I guess its only right that I give props when they do something right. This was a very good article, and showed some fair knowledge of the format. As rare as that is for this site, its good to see. Hope you do one for morningtide and beyond.
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"I'm a great guy if you don't mind the swearing"
"If I meant everything I said, I'd be a total *******"
Humour:
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I think that that undefined would be the perfect power for the flying spaghetti monster.
Player A: "I hit you for an undefined amount of damage."
Player B: "I shock FSM."
Player A: "Does it do undefined damage?"
Player B: "No."
Player A: "Then it doesn't die. Take your damage *****!"
Player B: "How?"
As I stated in the article I agree that Thoughtseize and Thorn are the only cards virtually guaranteed to make an impact in Vintage. It is still however important to review and consider the other seven cards.
I thought about including Moonglove Extract in the list but I cannot see it being played over more versatile choices like Barbarain Ring, Powder Keg or Pyrite Spellbomb.
On Mirror Entity it is important to remember that it is only mana intensive the turn you cast it. Once Mirror is on the board you can use your mana to cast disruption pieces until you are able to alpha strike the opponent. Even if you are waiting for the alpha strike Miror Entity can get the job done faster than Grunt or Goyf. The initial mana cost is a drawback and to support it and other high costed disruption pieces Fish may revert to running off color artifact mana. In my personal opinion Mirror Entity will be played in some Fish decks to speed up their clock.
It seems to be a rule that if you have "credibility" you restrict your activities to sarcastic or condescending posts tearing down everyone else's ideas and/or questioning their intellect.
I liked the article, but there was one misconception about the Time Vault/Rings combo. If you know you're going to be casting Rings, you can just untap the vault during your untap phase, drop the rings, then tap the vault and combo out. The initial turn ganed from the vault is counterbalanced by the one you spent to untap it, and you get an extra one from the rings.
This means that if ou can pay the 4 mana to drop and activate the rings with the vault already in play, then it doesn't take an extra turn over the Transreliquat combo. Also, if the rings get countered, you can always just tap the vault to cancel out the missing turn, so nothing extra is lost. I don't think this really affects the viability of the combo, but its worth noting.
It seems to be a rule that if you have "credibility" you restrict your activities to sarcastic or condescending posts tearing down everyone else's ideas and/or questioning their intellect.
Well, my comment was more directed at Harkius than the expert.
My point is that it's all well and good to be a credible expert but that next time, maybe that credible expert will spend his time and effort to produce an article. (or Harkius might give it a whirl, rather than just (by implication) tearing down the author's efforts at doing so)
Arkain: massacre, you mean? Looks like a card from Nemesis.
This is a Shivan Ampersand
Great job on this Jank Golem... I think the real test of this set is going to be if it provides a solid answer for Gush which is pretty much dominating this format. (Seven of the top 8 decks at the last SCG power 9 were running 4 Gush, and the Vintage Worlds finals was a GAT mirror.)
Nice article. Hope we'll see one this well done for Legacy.
Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
I really enjoyed the rest.
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I don't follow Vintage much, but I thoroughly enjoyed this article. It was thoughtful and well-presented, making it easy to follow along with. Plus, the explanation inherent with each card made it easy to keep up with the article, even if you're not a Vintage player. One of the best articles I have read on here, for sure.
Mono Black Aggro
:symb::symg: ElfRack:symg::symb:
:symu::symb: Colenfor's Fae :symb::symu:
:symb::symu::symw: Momentary Mannequin :symw::symu::symb:
Thou hath been owned
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Saying there hasn't been good options for anything but fish since Mirrodin shows your complete and utter lack of knowledge about the format.
While we welcome comment and criticism on our articles, direct personal insults like this will not be tolerated. Flame warning issued. --Binary
Curious... I wonder if their precognizance of this card explains how they knew it would be ok to unrestrict Gush...?
It almost makes sense now.
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What about any of the following cards that have been printed since Mirrodin and regularly see Vintage play in non-Fish decks?
Gifts Ungiven (recently restricted)
Empty the Warrens
Forbidden Orchard
Multiple cards in manaless Ichorid like Bridge from Below and the dredgers
Leyline of the Void
And that's just off the top of my head.
Dude, where have you been?
Look at the list of cards only from Ravnica, Coldsnap and Time Spiral that saw play in Vintage/Legacy:
Tarmogoyf
Leyline of the Void
Jotun Grunt
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Dark Confidant
Golgari Gravetroll & Stinkweed Imp
Protean Hulk
Virulent Sliver
Flamekin Zealot
Dread Return
That's only the list off the top of my head (I have class). I'll try and finish it off sometime, but I only know from watching people play, so
Damnit Binary...you beat me again. You must make it your life's work to make mine's miserable. Curses!
There are two reasons I chose to include Sower and Sprite. On their face both cards seem borderline playable, so they deserve some sort of explanation. Secondly both cards have been discussed online and added to tentative decklists; so they have some relevancy.
Portent is something to consider, but I cannot see it being played because it is a slow trip. The only deck that plays non Brainstorm cantrips is GAT which does not need to screw over the opponents topdecks. GAT does want their card right here, right now, not a turn later after missing a crucial land drop or spell.
Thorn will not see play in every Fish deck, but decks abusing mana denial and the other nine available sphere effects will want it. Wizards gives a few gems to Vintage every set, enough to prevent Vintage from becoming stagnant but still preserving it's integrity.
And the cards chosen do make sense.
There were cards on the list that I did indeed overlook. That being said:
I just have to ask, why was Forced Fruition not in the top 9? I primarily play Type 1 all the time as well as my friends. We've been playing since Dark came out and when a new set comes out, we look through the set for Type 1 power cards. This is the only card that just jumped out at us besides the Planeswalkers.
Have a nice day.
I can think of a couple of reasons:
1) It actually helps decks like manaless Ichorid, which aren't going to play enough spells to deck themselves, but can use the free draws they'll get from playing Dread Return to dredge into a win.
2) It's doesn't immediately win you the game, which any CMC 6 spell in the format that you have to hard cast should do. (Compare to Mind's Desire and Yawgmoth's Bargain, which effectively guarantee you win the turn you resolve them.)
Anyways great article Jank Golem.
-spellstutter sprite is a fine fish card. the most broken cards are broken specifically bc they cost 0 or 1. the tempo advantage of just throwing this guy down to snipe off a brainstorm is worth it.
-mirror entity is not cheap. jotun grunt and t-goyf are good bc you put 2 mana into them and they beat face for 4+ etc. m entity is a mana sink, and thus unplayable.
-ponder is solid for gat.
-rings of brithearth is kiddy stuff. if your playing metalworker you have 2 card win already w staff of domination. theres no way the interaction w fetch/wastes etc is worth continualy paying 2mana.
-sower of temptation is imo strictly worse than control magic. enchantments are by far the most durable permanents. if you stole a darksteel, for example, you want to be as confident as possible it will stay on your side.
-eyes of wisent is probably scary for blue decks, but the problem is if your playing green based fish, theres not that much you are doing that a good control player will feel the need to counter. this is easily played around.
I would add moonglove extract to the list. Ive heard talk of this as sb material for workshop decks that dont want barbarian ring for some reason. weldable shock. free activation might make it playable where pyrite spellbomb was not.
I would be surprised to see anything other than thoughtseize, thorn, ponder, and spellstutter appearing in tier decks.
unpopular ideas club
I remember there was a time when people said Skullclamp wasn't broken. Those people have since "moved" on to playing Pokemon cards. Go figure.
Humour:
I thought about including Moonglove Extract in the list but I cannot see it being played over more versatile choices like Barbarain Ring, Powder Keg or Pyrite Spellbomb.
On Mirror Entity it is important to remember that it is only mana intensive the turn you cast it. Once Mirror is on the board you can use your mana to cast disruption pieces until you are able to alpha strike the opponent. Even if you are waiting for the alpha strike Miror Entity can get the job done faster than Grunt or Goyf. The initial mana cost is a drawback and to support it and other high costed disruption pieces Fish may revert to running off color artifact mana. In my personal opinion Mirror Entity will be played in some Fish decks to speed up their clock.
That's great. Perhaps he'd like to write an article for us..?
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This means that if ou can pay the 4 mana to drop and activate the rings with the vault already in play, then it doesn't take an extra turn over the Transreliquat combo. Also, if the rings get countered, you can always just tap the vault to cancel out the missing turn, so nothing extra is lost. I don't think this really affects the viability of the combo, but its worth noting.
Well, my comment was more directed at Harkius than the expert.
My point is that it's all well and good to be a credible expert but that next time, maybe that credible expert will spend his time and effort to produce an article. (or Harkius might give it a whirl, rather than just (by implication) tearing down the author's efforts at doing so)
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!