I was really excited that we actually got an unconditional counterspell with Madness...until I saw the Madness cost on Broken Concentration. I just cannot fathom when you would ever actually want to cast it for that instead of its mana cost. Unless you are just struggling to hit UU or something, but at that point it feels more like something is wrong with your deck or mana base or something. If say..the Madness cost was just UU, that would be great, I could see looting with Jace, discarding this and then casting Counterspell as a very viable play. I don't think I'd ever want to tap Jace to discard this and cast it as is. And if you're being forced to discard it, what the hell are you countering with it at that point?
Think of it this way, if you do play it in a Jace-based discard deck, there will be situations where you won't be doing anything else with your mana anyway. So say it's turn 4, you have Jace, and you have Broken Concentration on hand along with a few other cards. Your opponent casts something you want to counter...tap Jace, Madness Broken Concentration. Not only do you get to counter here, you also get to draw a card, turning it effectively into a Dismiss. It's an added piece of flexibility to go with a standard 3 mana hardcounter. There are a few other cards in SOI that allow for discarding that Ux control decks may want (Mostly in Black), so there's another way to trigger it.
The most important part is simple. You get to pitch it to a positive effect and thus you don't need to pitch something else AND you get to counter something. Have your cake and eat it. 2-for-1 is still a thing.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I guess I can see that, pretty good way of putting it. I mostly look at things outside of Standard applications (I run Vryn's prodigy in EDH so using him as an example mostly comes from my experience with him there I guess) where there's just better options so trying to evaluate the thing in a more neutral way was proving frustrating haha.
When you have just one source of blue (3U, instead of 1UU), or when you are going to discard anyway and don't need perfect mana efficiency. I'd rather discard this for Madness than discard a generic Cancel for example, as it effectively nets you a card over the alternative.
Yeah EDH doesn't really have many discard outlets that are instant speed, low cost and consistently good. In UG for example I can see a case for Greater Good - Sac a fatty, have this as one of the three - but there you also have access to many better counters. Madness in general seems very Standard/Modern-focussed in it's design, given that it's mostly on low CMC cards. Which is fine, not every mechanic is for EDH.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Discarding is a downside. Discarding a card with Madness is less bad than discarding a card without Madness even if the Madness cost is higher.
That said, a counterspell is the card type least capable of taking advantage of a Madness cost. A counterspell is an instant-speed response to an action from a hidden zone (i.e. your opponent's hand), which makes it hard to set up the discard to happen at exactly the right time to enable the Madness-enabled counterspell. You can't play a creature or sorcery with a discard as an additional cost, for example, and symmetrical discard effects (like Liliana, Defiant Necromancer are only safe to print at sorcery speed.
I'm surprised at how many people haven't caught on to the fact that Madness is both a cost reduction and a card advantage mechanic. The point of Madness is that you're putting cards in your deck that have discarding as a cost, and presumably you're getting a card's worth of value out of that; and Madness lets you negate the discard part of the cost, because you still get to cast the card you discarded. So for instance if you discard a card to Waterfront Bouncer, you spent a card and U to get an Unsummon. But if you discard a card with Madness, you just spent U; you don't pay a card because you got to cast the card you discarded. After a fashion, it's like you cast your spell and drew an Unsummon for free.
However, Madness requires support from the rest of your deck (you need ways to discard cards for value) which means that Madness cards won't naturally find a home in singleton formats like EDH unless there is a dedicated Madness deck. There are definitely enough spellshapers, looters, and other useful discard outlets in EDH to make that possible, though I don't believe there is an on-theme commander that has enough colours in their colour identity to include a lot of good madness cards.
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On average, Magic players are worse at new card evaluation than almost every other skill, except perhaps sideboarding.
In generel what´s the point of madness cost with the same cost as the card? We have a few of those in the sets and it just seems so bad.
Madness isn't only about getting casting cost reductions. It's also important to find high impact outlets for your madness cards because then you get significant bonus value from madnessing stuff even if the madness cost = normal casting cost. For example using Jace as madness outlet effectively adds "draw a card" text to every madness card you play, which is really good even if the madness cost is the same as normal casting cost of the card.
That makes sense. Thanks for the tip
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UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
The most important part is simple. You get to pitch it to a positive effect and thus you don't need to pitch something else AND you get to counter something. Have your cake and eat it. 2-for-1 is still a thing.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Bonded Fetch was made for Madness because of Flavor Text.
That said, a counterspell is the card type least capable of taking advantage of a Madness cost. A counterspell is an instant-speed response to an action from a hidden zone (i.e. your opponent's hand), which makes it hard to set up the discard to happen at exactly the right time to enable the Madness-enabled counterspell. You can't play a creature or sorcery with a discard as an additional cost, for example, and symmetrical discard effects (like Liliana, Defiant Necromancer are only safe to print at sorcery speed.
Am I missing a line of text somewhere? You most certainly can counter it, whether you cast it for 1UU or 3U.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
However, Madness requires support from the rest of your deck (you need ways to discard cards for value) which means that Madness cards won't naturally find a home in singleton formats like EDH unless there is a dedicated Madness deck. There are definitely enough spellshapers, looters, and other useful discard outlets in EDH to make that possible, though I don't believe there is an on-theme commander that has enough colours in their colour identity to include a lot of good madness cards.
Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya
That makes sense. Thanks for the tip