Combo died a long, long time ago for standard. Control is about to meet its dear old rival in the afterlife.
Agro, especially red agro, is the dominant strategy right now in standard. It just is.
There is approximately 1 'control' deck that has a chance at winning, and it is WUR 'control' with 13 creatures in the main, none of which are true finishers. For the sake of accuracy, I'm going to go ahead and call that a tempo deck.
So there are no control decks. That's a good start. You know what we need when there are no control decks in the meta? Obviously more control hosers.
There are 2 wrath effects that may actually save you from dying if your opponent isn't holding a wrath dodger, Terminus, which if played with any strategy is a 6 drop, and Supreme Verdict, which is a harder to cast Day of Judgement, which has an anti-control effect stuck to it, which we all know does so much against Naya or RDW, you know how those all-in-agro decks like to hold those counterspells. So Supreme Verdict being more difficult to cast and not adding much of anything really is worse for control than having a 2WW wrath effect.
But lets really be honest about what Supreme Verdict does, which is absolutely nothing.
In a deck in which you need to have creatures on the board to win the game, and your objective is to win the game with damage, you may as well play the best burn spell for 2 mana ever printed, which also doubles as a finisher by giving a creature double strike. Boros Charm
Oh yeah, it also makes all of your dudes indestructible, so even though you already have 4 in the main deck of any WR agro deck, since 4 damage for 2 mana is an unprecedentedly efficient option for, you know, damage dealing decks, if someone happens to try to kill all your dudes with a wrath, even someone who started playing magic that day would know to play boros charm, win the game next turn. It's honestly too easy.
Don't want to play red in your agro deck. I don't see why not, since they have silly good cards right now, but lets say you don't. Rootbound Defenses will help you out. I know, I know, it's a 3 drop, god. It only counters an entire archetype, of which the least expensive of an effect that has to be played to be able to have a chance is 4, but yeah, I see what you mean, it's a little too expensive.
Well, in DGM we have Ready//Willing.
Realize that before RTR 1GW would have been a crazy low cost for all your dudes being indestructible until end of turn, but also it untaps your guys. With ready you can swing in, and if they block, untap your dudes, you lose nothing and still get damage in having blockers next turn. If they don't block and they swing in, just untap them and take their best dudes and lose nothing. You don't even have to play this in WBG, you can just throw it into naya and win the mirror match with this absurd trick. But what's that you say? This also HARD COUNTERS Supreme Verdict? Oh wow control is completely viable. apparently they needed to print 3 wrath dodgers for less the cost of a wrath in the same block.
But hold on guys, remember that 6 drop that you've probably lost the game before you have a chance to catch. It gets around indestructibility. OMFG guys we have a chance to play not just agro. Our plan, you got this, listen carefully, is sit there, doing nothing for 6 turns, and then casting Terminus.
Apparently, this plan scared WoTC so, so much, that they needed to print a wrath dodger that even got around Terminus. Yes, I'm talking about Legion's Initiative, and if you haven't read this card yet, go ahead and do that. I'll wait.
Read it yet?
Okay, this card, is malicious. I'm not even joking. Control had approximately zero things it can do against this.
Let me explain, it's an anthem effect. Right? For 2. Okay? That also dodges ANY wrath effect. Any being that is, could be, or has ever been printed.
Why is that significant?
This card offers no counter play. There's just nothing you can do about this. Well, I mean, I'm glad we have a 2 mana counterspell that you wouldn't lose the game for playing against agro in the meta. Oh wait Negate can't hit creatures? Awkward...
So on turn two, Agro Mc doesn't-need-to-think-about-a-single-thing-to-win-the-game drops this thing, and if he went first then if you're playing control it JUST HITS THE BOARD. you don't have any options at all. If you went first you have the laughable option of Negateing this thing, but I'd also like to remind you that if he drops a creature and you're holding negate, you're going to have a bad day. Then you have the option of playing a disenchant effect and maybe drawing it early enough to matter. If you do play it in the deck and draw it, they have the option of holding it until you are about to die. On the last turn they drop it post combat main phase, you try to blow it up, they activate it, and they tell you 'it's okay if you have a wrath effect I win either way now.'
By the way this 2 drop enchantment pumps their dudes.
Thanks for killing combo, evicting all of your combo players, of which some settled down to play control. Thanks for killing control and leaving only one option.
What flavor of agro would you like sir? As you can see this is a very interesting game with complex interactions such as playing creatures and winning the game, because you played burn spells and anthems that happened to dodge wrath effects.
Oh you wanted to play control? LOL Larry get a load of this guy, he doesn't want to only play agro.
I will reply to this in a manner that is appropriate. You put a lot of time and effort into your post--and for that, I commend you.
Agro, especially red agro, is the dominant strategy right now in standard. It just is.
Red aggro is indeed very popular, but it is also being played by a LOT of the metagame. The deck is easy to play, cheap the build, and if being used for quite a few players as a result. If a deck is used a lot, it is going to win many events.
There is approximately 1 'control' deck that has a chance at winning, and it is WUR 'control' with 13 creatures in the main, none of which are true finishers. For the sake of accuracy, I'm going to go ahead and call that a tempo deck.
I will link you to a site to show that you are actually incorrect. The most dominant deck on MTGO right now, despite it being expensive to build. is Junk Reanimator, more of a midrange style deck.
Actually, wow, mono-red aggro overtook it, which surprises me because Junk was solidly at the top for over a month...hate must have caught up to it, as it is an easy deck to neuter.
But there are also plenty of other options. Bant midrange/control is a very successful deck used by many professional players, and I personally use it with awesome success. Dega midrange is explosive and unforgiving in Tier 2. Naya midrange is a balanced barrage of threats. And Jund, while it has fallen, was still able to half the aggro train for quite a bit of time.
There are 2 wrath effects that may actually save you from dying if your opponent isn't holding a wrath dodger, Terminus, which if played with any strategy is a 6 drop, and Supreme Verdict, which is a harder to cast Day of Judgement, which has an anti-control effect stuck to it, which we all know does so much against Naya or RDW, you know how those all-in-agro decks like to hold those counterspells. So Supreme Verdict being more difficult to cast and not adding much of anything really is worse for control than having a 2WW wrath effect.
But lets really be honest about what Supreme Verdict does, which is absolutely nothing.
You are forgetting about 3 options, one trivial, one pretty significant, and one that is just insane to leave out.
Trivial--Merciless Eviction is seen on occasion, and does what it is supposed to do with built-in flexibility to not be dead against control.
Significant--Overloaded Mizzium Mortars and Bonfire of the Damned are both excellent wipers against aggro. Mortars even doubles as spot removal early on.
Whoa--Thragtusk, in my opinion, is the second-best anti-aggro card in the format next to Supreme Verdict. Many decks cannot make up for the time this thing bides, giving you 5 life and 2 creature trades, maybe more. I have had people rage-quit against me simply by dropping one of these, and Thrag lite (Centaur Healer) is great support out of the sideboard.
In a deck in which you need to have creatures on the board to win the game, and your objective is to win the game with damage, you may as well play the best burn spell for 2 mana ever printed, which also doubles as a finisher by giving a creature double strike. Boros Charm
Oh yeah, it also makes all of your dudes indestructible, so even though you already have 4 in the main deck of any WR agro deck, since 4 damage for 2 mana is an unprecedentedly efficient option for, you know, damage dealing decks, if someone happens to try to kill all your dudes with a wrath, even someone who started playing magic that day would know to play boros charm, win the game next turn. It's honestly too easy.
Don't want to play red in your agro deck. I don't see why not, since they have silly good cards right now, but lets say you don't. Rootbound Defenses will help you out. I know, I know, it's a 3 drop, god. It only counters an entire archetype, of which the least expensive of an effect that has to be played to be able to have a chance is 4, but yeah, I see what you mean, it's a little too expensive.
Well, in DGM we have Ready//Willing.
Many aggro decks that are competitive do not even maindeck Boros Charm, instead opting for Searing Spear's ability to remove a blocker. Ready//Willing and Rootbound Defenses are similar, but both are usually too narrow to worry about unless you are facing very specific decks, usually Junk tokens, a deck that has a hard time killing the control player quickly.
But hold on guys, remember that 6 drop that you've probably lost the game before you have a chance to catch. It gets around indestructibility. OMFG guys we have a chance to play not just agro. Our plan, you got this, listen carefully, is sit there, doing nothing for 6 turns, and then casting Terminus.
Apparently, this plan scared WoTC so, so much, that they needed to print a wrath dodger that even got around Terminus. Yes, I'm talking about Legion's Initiative, and if you haven't read this card yet, go ahead and do that. I'll wait.
Read it yet?
Okay, this card, is malicious. I'm not even joking. Control had approximately zero things it can do against this.
Let me explain, it's an anthem effect. Right? For 2. Okay? That also dodges ANY wrath effect. Any being that is, could be, or has ever been printed.
Legion's Initiative is OK. It's anthem effect if not really an anthem effect if it applies only to red creatures. It has a Wrath-dodger, but it is not one that is any surprise to an opponent. Seal of Ghostway is like blinking without the surprise...which was where its main value was. If I know you have the effect on the table, I will try to work around it. Doing so should not be difficult given that you will need to slow down considerably to factor it into your plans.
Conclusion: I hope that you are actually right and people start flocking to aggro as the preferred deck choice. It is a deck type that requires less skill to play, but has consistent results and ability to beat decks that are far more expensive. However, someone skilled playing a midrange/control deck will have the ability to make more decisions in a match, ones that usually result in wins, and ones that aggro players rarely have the advantage of making. This is not a case of affinity completely swarming a metagame, in which case the deck design outclasses any skill factor a control player could contribute.
Red aggro, gruul aggro, boros aggro, and zombies are all beatable, but when these decks dominate the composition of decks played, one must expect them to show up in the results, as well.
Esper control loses to the decks that would play this card, without some serious changes to the MB, in a heavy aggro meta Terminus isn't even playable. You have to use Barter in Blood to supplement Verdict. I know this because in our local meta 82% of decks are some variant of Gruul or Naya and run 4 Burning Tree Emissaries. I counted the copies of that card last week at FNM, out of 22 players we had 72 copies of the card. I have a lot of experience playing Esper control in a heavy aggro meta.
For that matter the OP got it wrong how this card is played. If they go first, they play it on turn 4, that way they still get their two drop down and do damage with it. Pumping ~3 creatures with +1/+0 and then sending a Boros Charm at their face gets you 7 damage that turn, the same as a Hellrider would. And you still get to have your two drop swinging on turn 3 that way.
If they don't go first they can drop it on turn 3.
Get over yourself. Pro tour Gatecrash had 2 (different) bona fide control decks in the top8, plus 2 UWR lists (including one that ran 4 maindeck sweepers). Esper control is still a viable deck right now, and the deck's biggest problem isn't aggro, it's reanimator.
The problem with effects that dodge wraths is that you need to keep mana up to use them, and when you do you're losing precious time you could be using playing dudes. We already have effects that dodge wraths (boros charm, Golgari Charm), and they're sorta played, but not anywhere else then the sideboard.
There's this card called naturalize. I think it destroys enchantments or something.
I did specifically mention that. And naturalize, wait a turn since they blink their gus, counter thier boros charmand cast Supreme Verdict is a pretty terrible 5th and 6th turn strategy against an agro deck.
And aggro is not the largest archetype in standard anyway. the 6 biggest decks are:
naya blitz - aggro
uwr tempo - midrange/control
jund midrange - midrange
junk midrange - midrange/combo
aristocrats - aggro/midrange
esper control - control
Sorry I consider early game agro and midrange agro both kinds of agro, Junk looks like midgame with removal to me, wouldn't call that control, and I mentioned how I think esper control won't be viable post DGM
Get over yourself. Pro tour Gatecrash had 2 (different) bona fide control decks in the top8, plus 2 UWR lists (including one that ran 4 maindeck sweepers). Esper control is still a viable deck right now, and the deck's biggest problem isn't aggro, it's reanimator.
There's an Esper list with an extremely good matchup against Reanimator. Look at Cuneo's list. The tradeoff is that list also goes about 33% against aggro. To have a good aggro matchup you lose to Reanimator, to have a good Reanimator matchup you lose to aggro.
Control isn't dead. Esper control is the bee's knees. It literally is an amazing deck that can crush aggro and midrange decks. We have Sphinx's revelations, 3 different types of wraths, Azorious charm, a ton of edict effects, a plethora of walkers, dissipate, and don't forget about drownyard? what more could you ask for? Legions intiative doesn't scare me, If someone is putting that into their deck that means less pressure on the board and more time to sphinx's revelation.
Mono red isn't the best deck in the format. There are two types of UWR decks and the control version and the aggro version. They aren't dedicated tempo decks.
combo isn't dead in standard, there's burn at the stake, a combo deck that uses mana rituals to pump out tokens and kill them on turn 4 or 5.
what you should do is build a deck with intiative and play against a seasoned esper control player. Come back to me once you remove the glare of card hype from your eyes.
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:cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2:
1. Good Decks Play With Good Cards
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o
~Metamorph
if control is dead, why is sphinx's rev one of the best cards in standard??
Because tempo can still benefit from card advantage. tempo is a type of agro/control that is not pure control and wouldn't play wrath dodgers so in not relevant to the conversation.
Get over yourself. Pro tour Gatecrash had 2 (different) bona fide control decks in the top8, plus 2 UWR lists (including one that ran 4 maindeck sweepers). Esper control is still a viable deck right now, and the deck's biggest problem isn't aggro, it's reanimator.
The problem with effects that dodge wraths is that you need to keep mana up to use them, and when you do you're losing precious time you could be using playing dudes. We already have effects that dodge wraths (boros charm, Golgari Charm), and they're sorta played, but not anywhere else then the sideboard.
Thank you for bringing reason into this argument,
Reanimator is a strategy in which you get big dudes on the board, some for abilities, some to just beat face and win the game. It is in effect a deck that relies on creatures, otherwise it wouldn't be reanimating anything, to win the game. Reanimator historically has problems against control because of its 'play one spell win the game' nature, but the lack of actually worth-while counterspells and the presence of wrath dodging effects, which reanimator itself can use, is not an argument for control being alive.
If you're referring to the WUR or bant list or the esper list, I think WUR and bant are tempo, as they rely on playing dudes, using lifegain and removal to slow the opponent down, and then winning the game with dudes.
mmmh. i don't know how comment this. oh wait that's the right word: ahahahahaha!!!
i have to hear control players saying all the time that counterspell are fine and fun because you need to play around them. so... try to learn to play around legion's iniziative like aggro players learnt to play around counterspell, ok?
That's just the thing, whenever control is playable for half a season WoTC freaks out and prints uncounterable dudes that regenerate and have shroud, or angels that make you unable to sacrifice permanents. WoTC coddles agro players because agro players don't want to have to learn counterplay, and to the control players who have been looking at every card in every set having to come up with a way to stop if someone uses it against you, this time they gave no options and just said 'lol this will kill you, you know it will, you know there are no options, and we do not care'
BTW...i want to point this out...People like this Alexander guy always "predict" the downfall of something because of one card that is coming out.....but....
When Jace, The Mindsculptor was spoiled here....90% of the people here said he wasnt very good because he was just a 4 mana Brainstorm. i still laugh about that to this day...just sayin lol
Tempo is an aggressive control deck. Saying it is not a control deck is just silly. It is hardly dead.
While there are dedicated control decks, they may not exist in standard right now, but it is hardly something they will be phasing out. People like to play slower games. The difference between Control and Combo is that Combo does not really ever interact with the other player. Control has player to player interaction much more. Why would they support MTG Solitaire?
Get use to tempo, it is a perfect medium for what WoTC wants out of the game, creatures turning sideways, and what control players look for; a means to control game state.
Legion's Initiative is a gnarly tempo card as well, so I have no idea why you just flat out assume that it is a control hoser.
Play Boros Reckoners alongside your sweepers. It is not like they are going to flash in this enchantment and pop it in response to your sweep.
Adapt for **** sakes.
EDIT: lol I thought Jace was pretty bad when he came out as well. I even agreed to trade them for Abyssal Persecutors at one point.
That's just the thing, whenever control is playable for half a season WoTC freaks out and prints uncounterable dudes that regenerate and have shroud, or angels that make you unable to sacrifice permanents. WoTC coddles agro players because agro players don't want to have to learn counterplay, and to the control players who have been looking at every card in every set having to come up with a way to stop if someone uses it against you, this time they game no options and just said 'lol this will kill you, you know it will, you know there are no options, and we do not care'
Deal with it.
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Traditional control is just that....traditional. Draw-Go-Counter. Tempo is a type of control deck, as is midrange. But the standard days of "draw, play land, pass" havent been a round in a while.
mmmh. i don't know how comment this. oh wait that's the right word: ahahahahaha!!!
i have to hear control players saying all the time that counterspell are fine and fun because you need to play around them. so... try to learn to play around legion's iniziative like aggro players learnt to play around counterspell, ok?
You play around counterspells by baiting them, or waiting for a tap out. Aggro vs Control when counterspells exist in a functional form is a slow race. Control reacts to things. The only reaction to this card is enchantment destruction. Enchantment destruction is totally dead against everything else.
The good options here are Catch from Catch // Release which is solid if you're in red. You can steal it and blink an Augur and Renounce the Guilds looks like the next best option. Renounce the Guilds can easily miss though so it's not all that solid of a play. There's always the Detention Sphere/Oblivion Ring standby but using your third turn on that, you'll still be hit for a ton on turn 4 (and likely die unless you went first). High Priest of Pennance is possible too but it's unfortunately a creature which makes your Augurs and Snapcasters worse. Everything else is too narrow for a game 1 answer.
there ya go, put it together and what do you get? "CONTROL IS NOT EXCLUSIVELY BLUE".
Control is a TYPE of deck played, which can be played with ANY color's of the pie.
That being said...i agree with you to an extent. TRADITIONAL control is dead in standard right now.
I understand this, I used to play a BGW rogue control deck in the times of time spiral with 4 wrath main, 1 damnation and 3 more in the side. I'm not saying Blue control is dead, I'm saying, pure, draw-go control is dead.
Tempo is an aggressive control deck. Saying it is not a control deck is just silly. It is hardly dead.
While there are dedicated control decks, they may not exist in standard right now, but it is hardly something they will be phasing out. People like to play slower games. The difference between Control and Combo is that Combo does not really ever interact with the other player. Control has player to player interaction much more. Why would they support MTG Solitaire?
Get use to tempo, it is a perfect medium for what WoTC wants out of the game, creatures turning sideways, and what control players look for; a means to control game state.
Legion's Initiative is a gnarly tempo card as well, so I have no idea why you just flat out assume that it is a control hoser.
Play Boros Reckoners alongside your sweepers. It is not like they are going to flash in this enchantment and pop it in response to your sweep.
Adapt for **** sakes.
EDIT: lol I thought Jace was pretty bad when he came out as well. I even agreed to trade them for Abyssal Persecutors at one point.
Legions initiative doesn't slow your opponent down even a little. you can use it as a combat trick to block and then blink your guys, but if you do this you lose your anthem and don't gain a lot since you can't stack damage or anything like that. I'm just calling it what it is, a mass removal hoser. a hoser of of any kind of mass removal. Tempo is a deck archetype that is part agro and part control. I do see draw-go control going away completely, since it is a paradigm WoTC has been slowly working towards for a long time now.
Also why would I play an ability dude and a sweeper, when they're just going to dodge my sweeper anyway? Way to 0-for-2 myself.
The point isn't that they'll flash it in, the point is that they get it on the board before you can counter it, then if you specifically set out to kill it, you are playing a disenchant effect against agro so tell me how that goes for you. Even after that they may be holding boros charm and you would still lose.
Traditional control is just that....traditional. Draw-Go-Counter. Tempo is a type of control deck, as is midrange. But the standard days of "draw, play land, pass" havent been a round in a while.
Draw-go is a fairly narrow definition of control. While it is true that draw-go isn't around, to say that "traditional control has been dead for a while" carries the implication that control is both old and dead, and that the only control decks that exist are only half-control.
There is nothing inherently interesting around draw-go, anyways, and its death doesn't carry a whole lot of meaning.
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I updated my post on Page 1 with my response...but to add:
Draw-go was just as mindless as most aggro, only it was far more powerful and able to deal with threats much more easily. To not hold it back would result in an entire playstyle going extinct, and contrary to your viewpoint, control is not going extinct.
Draw-go is a fairly narrow definition of control. While it is true that draw-go isn't around, to say that "traditional control has been dead for a while" carries the implication that control is both old and dead, and that the only control decks that exist are only half-control.
There is nothing inherently interesting around draw-go, anyways, and its death doesn't carry a whole lot of meaning.
uhmmmmm....Draw-Go is one of the original forms of Control. and yes, Control IS old....lol. And YES it IS dead here in standard. and YES the decks that exist in standard are only HALF-CONTROL.
Agro, especially red agro, is the dominant strategy right now in standard. It just is.
There is approximately 1 'control' deck that has a chance at winning, and it is WUR 'control' with 13 creatures in the main, none of which are true finishers. For the sake of accuracy, I'm going to go ahead and call that a tempo deck.
Without sifting through all inaccuracies, filtering the incredibly negative tone, and biased arguments I'll take the first section to dissemble your entire rhetoric.
You dont give a definition to your understanding what 'control' entails.
1. Draw-go, with creatureless finisher?
2. Tap out control?
3. Draw-go with big finisher?
4. Board lock control?
5. Card advantage control?
Now comes decks that have finished in relevant top 8's.
1. Esper
2. Jund (yes, current jund versions are very much like tap out control)
4. Turbofog
5. WUR
Now personally I see RUG as a future contender fitting in section 3.
So we have 4-5 different control archetypes in standard, I dare you to point out any other standard format that had this much versatility.
Edit:
The one thing I can say though, is that this standard is the first one in a very long succession of not completely being dominated by control decks / tempo.
loxodon smiter can be a control card. it's a great blocker and it stops geist of st traft (a midrange/aggro card). Smiter is a bant control anti-aggro card.
Loxodon Smiter is a 3 drop beating stick with 2 counter-control abilities that can block, as I will remind you 99% of all creatures can do, man got me on that one.
Alexander... you are terrible at magic. I am just going to say it now. This is by far one of the most ridiculous threads I have seen here, and trust me I have been blown away by many threads.
I am sorry that you are having a hard time sitting down with that sore ass of yours, I really am, but it is clear you are one of those players that doesn't really know how to adjust to a game that is constantly in flux and because of that, you probably will never better yourself as a magic player.
The kitchen table is a rough place for magic bro, good luck.
Agro, especially red agro, is the dominant strategy right now in standard. It just is.
There is approximately 1 'control' deck that has a chance at winning, and it is WUR 'control' with 13 creatures in the main, none of which are true finishers. For the sake of accuracy, I'm going to go ahead and call that a tempo deck.
So there are no control decks. That's a good start. You know what we need when there are no control decks in the meta? Obviously more control hosers.
There are 2 wrath effects that may actually save you from dying if your opponent isn't holding a wrath dodger, Terminus, which if played with any strategy is a 6 drop, and Supreme Verdict, which is a harder to cast Day of Judgement, which has an anti-control effect stuck to it, which we all know does so much against Naya or RDW, you know how those all-in-agro decks like to hold those counterspells. So Supreme Verdict being more difficult to cast and not adding much of anything really is worse for control than having a 2WW wrath effect.
But lets really be honest about what Supreme Verdict does, which is absolutely nothing.
In a deck in which you need to have creatures on the board to win the game, and your objective is to win the game with damage, you may as well play the best burn spell for 2 mana ever printed, which also doubles as a finisher by giving a creature double strike. Boros Charm
Oh yeah, it also makes all of your dudes indestructible, so even though you already have 4 in the main deck of any WR agro deck, since 4 damage for 2 mana is an unprecedentedly efficient option for, you know, damage dealing decks, if someone happens to try to kill all your dudes with a wrath, even someone who started playing magic that day would know to play boros charm, win the game next turn. It's honestly too easy.
Don't want to play red in your agro deck. I don't see why not, since they have silly good cards right now, but lets say you don't. Rootbound Defenses will help you out. I know, I know, it's a 3 drop, god. It only counters an entire archetype, of which the least expensive of an effect that has to be played to be able to have a chance is 4, but yeah, I see what you mean, it's a little too expensive.
Well, in DGM we have Ready//Willing.
Realize that before RTR 1GW would have been a crazy low cost for all your dudes being indestructible until end of turn, but also it untaps your guys. With ready you can swing in, and if they block, untap your dudes, you lose nothing and still get damage in having blockers next turn. If they don't block and they swing in, just untap them and take their best dudes and lose nothing. You don't even have to play this in WBG, you can just throw it into naya and win the mirror match with this absurd trick. But what's that you say? This also HARD COUNTERS Supreme Verdict? Oh wow control is completely viable. apparently they needed to print 3 wrath dodgers for less the cost of a wrath in the same block.
But hold on guys, remember that 6 drop that you've probably lost the game before you have a chance to catch. It gets around indestructibility. OMFG guys we have a chance to play not just agro. Our plan, you got this, listen carefully, is sit there, doing nothing for 6 turns, and then casting Terminus.
Apparently, this plan scared WoTC so, so much, that they needed to print a wrath dodger that even got around Terminus. Yes, I'm talking about Legion's Initiative, and if you haven't read this card yet, go ahead and do that. I'll wait.
Read it yet?
Okay, this card, is malicious. I'm not even joking. Control had approximately zero things it can do against this.
Let me explain, it's an anthem effect. Right? For 2. Okay? That also dodges ANY wrath effect. Any being that is, could be, or has ever been printed.
Why is that significant?
This card offers no counter play. There's just nothing you can do about this. Well, I mean, I'm glad we have a 2 mana counterspell that you wouldn't lose the game for playing against agro in the meta. Oh wait Negate can't hit creatures? Awkward...
So on turn two, Agro Mc doesn't-need-to-think-about-a-single-thing-to-win-the-game drops this thing, and if he went first then if you're playing control it JUST HITS THE BOARD. you don't have any options at all. If you went first you have the laughable option of Negateing this thing, but I'd also like to remind you that if he drops a creature and you're holding negate, you're going to have a bad day. Then you have the option of playing a disenchant effect and maybe drawing it early enough to matter. If you do play it in the deck and draw it, they have the option of holding it until you are about to die. On the last turn they drop it post combat main phase, you try to blow it up, they activate it, and they tell you 'it's okay if you have a wrath effect I win either way now.'
By the way this 2 drop enchantment pumps their dudes.
Thanks for killing combo, evicting all of your combo players, of which some settled down to play control. Thanks for killing control and leaving only one option.
What flavor of agro would you like sir? As you can see this is a very interesting game with complex interactions such as playing creatures and winning the game, because you played burn spells and anthems that happened to dodge wrath effects.
Oh you wanted to play control? LOL Larry get a load of this guy, he doesn't want to only play agro.
Red aggro is indeed very popular, but it is also being played by a LOT of the metagame. The deck is easy to play, cheap the build, and if being used for quite a few players as a result. If a deck is used a lot, it is going to win many events.
I will link you to a site to show that you are actually incorrect. The most dominant deck on MTGO right now, despite it being expensive to build. is Junk Reanimator, more of a midrange style deck.
http://www.mtgo-stats.com/
Actually, wow, mono-red aggro overtook it, which surprises me because Junk was solidly at the top for over a month...hate must have caught up to it, as it is an easy deck to neuter.
But there are also plenty of other options. Bant midrange/control is a very successful deck used by many professional players, and I personally use it with awesome success. Dega midrange is explosive and unforgiving in Tier 2. Naya midrange is a balanced barrage of threats. And Jund, while it has fallen, was still able to half the aggro train for quite a bit of time.
You are forgetting about 3 options, one trivial, one pretty significant, and one that is just insane to leave out.
Trivial--Merciless Eviction is seen on occasion, and does what it is supposed to do with built-in flexibility to not be dead against control.
Significant--Overloaded Mizzium Mortars and Bonfire of the Damned are both excellent wipers against aggro. Mortars even doubles as spot removal early on.
Whoa--Thragtusk, in my opinion, is the second-best anti-aggro card in the format next to Supreme Verdict. Many decks cannot make up for the time this thing bides, giving you 5 life and 2 creature trades, maybe more. I have had people rage-quit against me simply by dropping one of these, and Thrag lite (Centaur Healer) is great support out of the sideboard.
Many aggro decks that are competitive do not even maindeck Boros Charm, instead opting for Searing Spear's ability to remove a blocker. Ready//Willing and Rootbound Defenses are similar, but both are usually too narrow to worry about unless you are facing very specific decks, usually Junk tokens, a deck that has a hard time killing the control player quickly.
Legion's Initiative is OK. It's anthem effect if not really an anthem effect if it applies only to red creatures. It has a Wrath-dodger, but it is not one that is any surprise to an opponent. Seal of Ghostway is like blinking without the surprise...which was where its main value was. If I know you have the effect on the table, I will try to work around it. Doing so should not be difficult given that you will need to slow down considerably to factor it into your plans.
Conclusion: I hope that you are actually right and people start flocking to aggro as the preferred deck choice. It is a deck type that requires less skill to play, but has consistent results and ability to beat decks that are far more expensive. However, someone skilled playing a midrange/control deck will have the ability to make more decisions in a match, ones that usually result in wins, and ones that aggro players rarely have the advantage of making. This is not a case of affinity completely swarming a metagame, in which case the deck design outclasses any skill factor a control player could contribute.
Red aggro, gruul aggro, boros aggro, and zombies are all beatable, but when these decks dominate the composition of decks played, one must expect them to show up in the results, as well.
Esper control loses to the decks that would play this card, without some serious changes to the MB, in a heavy aggro meta Terminus isn't even playable. You have to use Barter in Blood to supplement Verdict. I know this because in our local meta 82% of decks are some variant of Gruul or Naya and run 4 Burning Tree Emissaries. I counted the copies of that card last week at FNM, out of 22 players we had 72 copies of the card. I have a lot of experience playing Esper control in a heavy aggro meta.
For that matter the OP got it wrong how this card is played. If they go first, they play it on turn 4, that way they still get their two drop down and do damage with it. Pumping ~3 creatures with +1/+0 and then sending a Boros Charm at their face gets you 7 damage that turn, the same as a Hellrider would. And you still get to have your two drop swinging on turn 3 that way.
If they don't go first they can drop it on turn 3.
The problem with effects that dodge wraths is that you need to keep mana up to use them, and when you do you're losing precious time you could be using playing dudes. We already have effects that dodge wraths (boros charm, Golgari Charm), and they're sorta played, but not anywhere else then the sideboard.
Excuse me for wanting to play control and voicing my opinion on it. Isn't this spam?
I'm saying this won't be a good deck after DGM comes out. New card discussion and all of that.
Hmm... more spam...
I did specifically mention that. And naturalize, wait a turn since they blink their gus, counter thier boros charmand cast Supreme Verdict is a pretty terrible 5th and 6th turn strategy against an agro deck.
Sorry I consider early game agro and midrange agro both kinds of agro, Junk looks like midgame with removal to me, wouldn't call that control, and I mentioned how I think esper control won't be viable post DGM
There's an Esper list with an extremely good matchup against Reanimator. Look at Cuneo's list. The tradeoff is that list also goes about 33% against aggro. To have a good aggro matchup you lose to Reanimator, to have a good Reanimator matchup you lose to aggro.
Can't have everything.
Mono red isn't the best deck in the format. There are two types of UWR decks and the control version and the aggro version. They aren't dedicated tempo decks.
combo isn't dead in standard, there's burn at the stake, a combo deck that uses mana rituals to pump out tokens and kill them on turn 4 or 5.
what you should do is build a deck with intiative and play against a seasoned esper control player. Come back to me once you remove the glare of card hype from your eyes.
:cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2:
1. Good Decks Play With Good Cards
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o
~Metamorph
Cōnservātum album delenda est.
Because tempo can still benefit from card advantage. tempo is a type of agro/control that is not pure control and wouldn't play wrath dodgers so in not relevant to the conversation.
Thank you for bringing reason into this argument,
Reanimator is a strategy in which you get big dudes on the board, some for abilities, some to just beat face and win the game. It is in effect a deck that relies on creatures, otherwise it wouldn't be reanimating anything, to win the game. Reanimator historically has problems against control because of its 'play one spell win the game' nature, but the lack of actually worth-while counterspells and the presence of wrath dodging effects, which reanimator itself can use, is not an argument for control being alive.
If you're referring to the WUR or bant list or the esper list, I think WUR and bant are tempo, as they rely on playing dudes, using lifegain and removal to slow the opponent down, and then winning the game with dudes.
C-O-N-T-R-O-L-I-S-N-O-T-E-X-C-L-U-S-I-V-E-L-Y-B-L-U-E
there ya go, put it together and what do you get? "CONTROL IS NOT EXCLUSIVELY BLUE".
Control is a TYPE of deck played, which can be played with ANY color's of the pie.
That being said...i agree with you to an extent. TRADITIONAL control is dead in standard right now.
That's just the thing, whenever control is playable for half a season WoTC freaks out and prints uncounterable dudes that regenerate and have shroud, or angels that make you unable to sacrifice permanents. WoTC coddles agro players because agro players don't want to have to learn counterplay, and to the control players who have been looking at every card in every set having to come up with a way to stop if someone uses it against you, this time they gave no options and just said 'lol this will kill you, you know it will, you know there are no options, and we do not care'
When Jace, The Mindsculptor was spoiled here....90% of the people here said he wasnt very good because he was just a 4 mana Brainstorm. i still laugh about that to this day...just sayin lol
While there are dedicated control decks, they may not exist in standard right now, but it is hardly something they will be phasing out. People like to play slower games. The difference between Control and Combo is that Combo does not really ever interact with the other player. Control has player to player interaction much more. Why would they support MTG Solitaire?
Get use to tempo, it is a perfect medium for what WoTC wants out of the game, creatures turning sideways, and what control players look for; a means to control game state.
Legion's Initiative is a gnarly tempo card as well, so I have no idea why you just flat out assume that it is a control hoser.
Play Boros Reckoners alongside your sweepers. It is not like they are going to flash in this enchantment and pop it in response to your sweep.
Adapt for **** sakes.
EDIT: lol I thought Jace was pretty bad when he came out as well. I even agreed to trade them for Abyssal Persecutors at one point.
Define traditional control.
Deal with it.
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Traditional control is just that....traditional. Draw-Go-Counter. Tempo is a type of control deck, as is midrange. But the standard days of "draw, play land, pass" havent been a round in a while.
You play around counterspells by baiting them, or waiting for a tap out. Aggro vs Control when counterspells exist in a functional form is a slow race. Control reacts to things. The only reaction to this card is enchantment destruction. Enchantment destruction is totally dead against everything else.
The good options here are Catch from Catch // Release which is solid if you're in red. You can steal it and blink an Augur and Renounce the Guilds looks like the next best option. Renounce the Guilds can easily miss though so it's not all that solid of a play. There's always the Detention Sphere/Oblivion Ring standby but using your third turn on that, you'll still be hit for a ton on turn 4 (and likely die unless you went first). High Priest of Pennance is possible too but it's unfortunately a creature which makes your Augurs and Snapcasters worse. Everything else is too narrow for a game 1 answer.
I understand this, I used to play a BGW rogue control deck in the times of time spiral with 4 wrath main, 1 damnation and 3 more in the side. I'm not saying Blue control is dead, I'm saying, pure, draw-go control is dead.
Legions initiative doesn't slow your opponent down even a little. you can use it as a combat trick to block and then blink your guys, but if you do this you lose your anthem and don't gain a lot since you can't stack damage or anything like that. I'm just calling it what it is, a mass removal hoser. a hoser of of any kind of mass removal. Tempo is a deck archetype that is part agro and part control. I do see draw-go control going away completely, since it is a paradigm WoTC has been slowly working towards for a long time now.
Also why would I play an ability dude and a sweeper, when they're just going to dodge my sweeper anyway? Way to 0-for-2 myself.
The point isn't that they'll flash it in, the point is that they get it on the board before you can counter it, then if you specifically set out to kill it, you are playing a disenchant effect against agro so tell me how that goes for you. Even after that they may be holding boros charm and you would still lose.
Draw-go is a fairly narrow definition of control. While it is true that draw-go isn't around, to say that "traditional control has been dead for a while" carries the implication that control is both old and dead, and that the only control decks that exist are only half-control.
There is nothing inherently interesting around draw-go, anyways, and its death doesn't carry a whole lot of meaning.
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Draw-go was just as mindless as most aggro, only it was far more powerful and able to deal with threats much more easily. To not hold it back would result in an entire playstyle going extinct, and contrary to your viewpoint, control is not going extinct.
uhmmmmm....Draw-Go is one of the original forms of Control. and yes, Control IS old....lol. And YES it IS dead here in standard. and YES the decks that exist in standard are only HALF-CONTROL.
wow....
Without sifting through all inaccuracies, filtering the incredibly negative tone, and biased arguments I'll take the first section to dissemble your entire rhetoric.
You dont give a definition to your understanding what 'control' entails.
1. Draw-go, with creatureless finisher?
2. Tap out control?
3. Draw-go with big finisher?
4. Board lock control?
5. Card advantage control?
Now comes decks that have finished in relevant top 8's.
1. Esper
2. Jund (yes, current jund versions are very much like tap out control)
4. Turbofog
5. WUR
Now personally I see RUG as a future contender fitting in section 3.
So we have 4-5 different control archetypes in standard, I dare you to point out any other standard format that had this much versatility.
Edit:
The one thing I can say though, is that this standard is the first one in a very long succession of not completely being dominated by control decks / tempo.
Give irony and sarcasm, when ignorance and stupidity is found.
The whip is kept for special occasions
Loxodon Smiter is a 3 drop beating stick with 2 counter-control abilities that can block, as I will remind you 99% of all creatures can do, man got me on that one.
I am sorry that you are having a hard time sitting down with that sore ass of yours, I really am, but it is clear you are one of those players that doesn't really know how to adjust to a game that is constantly in flux and because of that, you probably will never better yourself as a magic player.
The kitchen table is a rough place for magic bro, good luck.
Please don't flame and troll others. -TK