And cards like these. All of these effects were very exciting when printed without being broken; and some are still relevant. There are others, too, which were powerful in the day and no longer are as impactful. (Watchwolf; Giant Solifuge; Glare of Subdual; etc.)
Or think back to Invasion block- very classic spells like:
Now, you might say "it's impossible to keep doing that". But it really isn't, at least in the context of Ravnica's two-color guilds; not yet. How do we know? RTR did it, to a good extent.
(both very classic X-spells which were new and very good without being broken)
Even Epic Experiment is good in its own way; it's an effect that is already somewhat playable, has a lot of potential and could easily become great in the right environment.
Detention Sphere (great riff on O-ring)
Supreme Verdict
Abrupt Decay (great riff on Maelstrom Pulse)
Deathrite Shaman (overpowered as hell, but he will be the 'classic' BG mana dork for years to come, like Noble Hierarch for WUG).
Admittedly Selesnya and Izzet got a little shafted in the "classic spells" department, and I'm not happy about that, but there's still Armada Wurm and the already mentioned Epic Experiment, which are something.
Only part of this is due to the uncounterable & one-drop hybrid cycles; the X-spells and D Sphere aren't in this category, and it's not exactly impossible to make great classic two-color cards without using that cycle.
Gatecrash seems to be highly lacking in this. For example, before Gatecrash was released, I was very interested to see what the BW take on removal would be (on par with D Sphere, Abrupt Decay, Verdict, etc. - and it doesn't have to be uncounterable to be good). Given that, you know, BW is THE colors of removal, especially for creatures (see for example Unmake). It's also THE colors of wrath effects, and you would think that Wizards would put a real effort into an Orzhov Wrath, given that the only one we have, from previous Ravnica block, was underwhelming and quite awful.
Apart from limited-only filler like Executioner's Swing, which feels kinda dumb anyway because it comes so soon after Avenging Arrow, the closest we get is Merciless Eviction. Cue "underwhelming and quite bad Wrath #2 for BW"? Imagine if Vindicate had cost 5 mana, we wouldn't be talking about how classic it was. (as an example, see again: Unmake). Another example: Purge the Profane. This would have been marginally decent at 1WB. In fact, it's kind of insane that it's not 1WB, given that Mind Rot is already very weak at 2B, and gold color costs are supposed to upgrade the spell, not make them complete trash. Also see Blightning, a card that is both very good and quite fair without cascade (cascade is the unfair part, pretty obviously). This really feels like Development having a nervous breakdown and wetting the bed.
It's not just Orzhov, either, though it's the one I'm personally most interested in. Simic has nothing equivalent to a Voidslime or a Trygon Predator, though it does have one of the better 'iconic' spells in the set with Urban Evolution. Gruul basically gets completely screwed in this department, and Boros gets the complicated and inelegant Aurelia's Fury, which is a decent fireball/fog effect, but nothing particularly classic, and it's a very slow card that's clearly not going anywhere outside of Standard. Dimir, well... even if Whispering Madness ends up being great, Cipher still doesn't feel particularly iconic or even particularly representative of UB. And there's not much else.
Keep in mind- I don't mind the powering down at all, but mid-block was the wrong time to do it, especially in the middle of a block that's divided into 2 sets of 5 color-pair guilds. Did they think people wouldn't notice the assymetry? Really? Also keep in mind this isn't purely a power level discussion; it's also about design. When I want to buy a gold set, I look for clean, reasonably powerful gold cards which beautifully reflect the color pair at work. Most of the clean stuff feels like it was randomly overcosted for no reason, like Purge the Profane and Spark Trooper, and the few things I think are reasonably powerful aren't the kind of iconic spell or effect that draws me in (Boros Charm, Dimir Charm...)
I'm confused. Did you want cards to be "classic" or cost less mana? There are plenty of cards in Gatecrash that feel very "classic" to me but aren't terribly powerful in a vacuum. Frenzied Tilling, Martial Glory, and Ground Assault feel very "classic" to me (literally so in the case of Frenzied Tilling).
Just because you don't like Merciless Eviction doesn't mean that the set sucks. Merciless Eviction is one of the most powerful and flexible sweepers ever printed. It's not Wizards' fault that you think it would be more "special" at 4 or 5 mana.
Keep in mind that the game is 20 years old now. It's a little harder to come up with a definitive staple card without taking some risks.
I agree that it's a bummer we don't see any Supreme Virdict or Abrupt Decay style staples in GTC... but we can't always do the same ole same. It gives us less to look forward to next time. Who knows what we'll see in Dragon's Maze...
There are plenty of cards in Gatecrash that feel very "classic" to me but aren't terribly powerful in a vacuum. Frenzied Tilling, Martial Glory, and Ground Assault feel very "classic" to me (literally so in the case of Frenzied Tilling).
Tilling's a reprint, so it's not a reason to like the set. The other two are fine, but not particularly interesting outside of limited. I would appreciate them a lot more if the set also offered the central "pillar" gold cards (or gold enablers) which I expect from a gold set. I remember when Alara Reborn was released, cards like Qasali Pridemage, Putrid Leech, Zealous Persecution, Behemoth Sledge, etc. anchored the whole set for me. (not BBE and bad cascade designs). That way, the cleaner (but non-powerful) designs also get appreciated more.
Just because you don't like Merciless Eviction doesn't mean that the set sucks. Merciless Eviction is one of the most powerful and flexible sweepers ever printed.
One of the most powerful? Don't agree. Flexible, yes, though Austere Command is much more flexible without even costing two separate colors, and also quite fair.
"Why they didn't reprint spells from the old ravnica?"
Because this is Return to Ranvina, not "From the Vaults: Ravnica"
"Why they didn't reprint [insert the name of a very powerful spell that would break standard here]"
Spells such as Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, Gerrard's Verdict won't get reprited on standard legal sets, it's time for people stop trying to bringing them EVERY SINGLE SET.
And why would you want Fires of Yavimaya when Fervor is on M13 and barely see play.
Yeah, GTC don't have any instant staple like RTR did, this is a bit sad, but the set isn't weak.
Tilling's a reprint, so it's not a reason to like the set. The other two are fine, but not particularly interesting outside of limited. I would appreciate them a lot more if the set also offered the central "pillar" gold cards (or gold enablers) which I expect from a gold set. I remember when Alara Reborn was released, cards like Qasali Pridemage, Putrid Leech, Zealous Persecution, Behemoth Sledge, etc. anchored the whole set for me. (not BBE and bad cascade designs). That way, the cleaner (but non-powerful) designs also get appreciated more.
This reads like a complaint about power level, and I wish it was just couched as such instead of throwing in words like "classic," "pillar" and "enablers." Putrid Leech is not a "gold enabler," it's just a high-power card. There's no difference between Zealous Persecution and Merciless Eviction in terms of anything but power--they're both flexible cards that apply global effects in ways that convey a strong feel of both white and black mechanics. There are reasons to like Zealous Persecution better, but that's almost entirely because it's more immediately pushed for Constructed formats.
One of the most powerful? Don't agree. Flexible, yes, though Austere Command is much more flexible without even costing two separate colors, and also quite fair.
It's Final Judgment with three additional modes for the same converted mana cost. Austere Command doesn't exile anything and can't hit planeswalkers. If Austere Command is the only effect you can compare it to unfavorably, then "one of the most powerful" is something you're actually agreeing with.
I don't want a reprint of Fires or any reprints at all. Just new cards that are on that level of good design and utility.
It's Final Judgment with three additional modes for the same converted mana cost. Austere Command doesn't exile anything and can't hit planeswalkers. If Austere Command is the only effect you can compare it to unfavorably, then "one of the most powerful" is something you're actually agreeing with.
Why? Austere Command is an EDH staple but not much more than that. Merciless Eviction is decent in EDH but much less of a staple because it's BW and the EDH rules about color make it 90% less splashable.
Comparing it to Final Judgment doesn't yield any huge favors considering that - (1) it's gold and (2) Final Judgment has never been anything worthwhile.
All of these remain constructed staples or were big staples in 60 card formats. Sweepers that cost more than 4 are quite weak in constructed and always have been, except the one that has Miracle W. The usefulness of the primary mode (exile all creatures) begins dropping drastically by turn 8-9 when you have a 60% or so chance of casting this (land drop curve) since the board should have already been swept by then and stabilized, and turning off Geralf's Messenger on turn 9 is far from anything special. Turning your 6 mana spell into Dreadbore for a PW isn't the kind of utility that adds a ton of value either.
Not all flexible cards are good. For example of the Command cycle, only 1 was ridiculous (Cryptic, surprise), 1 was constructed staple (Profane), 1 was constructed fringe card (Primal), and 2 didn't see much play (Austere & Incindiery).
Similarly, most charms have been pretty awful in Magic's history, and at most they have been "OK" in Standard (Alara for example). The extra price paid for flexibility is only sometimes worth it.
i would like you to revisit this thread after gatecrash has been out for a few weeks/months. how do you know what is 'classic' before it's been played? give it a chance before you start bashing it saying there is nothing good from the set. i guarantee there will be at least on card that people wrote off as 'just ok' or less that will become a staple in the format. guarantee it.
I suspect the guild card slots in Dragon's Maze will be the great utility guild cards we've been looking for and probably some nice guild reprints. It's the perfect place for them.
The flexibility it offers is huge and it means it can be used to deal with almost anything. We won't know for a while if it's going to be as good as it is useful but safe to say it's a key spell in keeping decks that want to spam something other than creatures in check
I think what the OP meant by classic was cards that have very simple effect, this effect is very representative of that color / color pair and it's constructed playable. Example of classic spells in M13: Oblivion Ring, Negate, Clone, Searing Spear, Far Seek.
I believe the reason is the charms. They are the pushed gold uncommon of this set, have no doubt about that. Still, they don't feel really classic, due the complicated effects and huge text wall.
Orzhov Charm is just a worse Vendetta which is already a marginal card. Outside of a Standard environment that has next to 0 good removal, it's unplayable, and the other two modes are both awful for various reasons I've gone into elsewhere.
I can't call it a "classic" by any stretch of the imagination; it's not a card you talk about two years later. Same is true for a lot of these. I love Obzedat and Aurelia as guild leaders, but like the original Ravnica guild leaders, they're meant primarily for EDH and casual legendary collections (tons of people still have a binder page for the original Ravnica guild leaders). While both are fun legendary Commander designs, neither is a staple effect of its color pair.
Even two years after Ravnica was out, you still looked at a card like Watchwolf as a very cool and reasonably powerful GW card. Felt very GW, too. It wasn't because I was new or because gold was new, because neither is true; I'd seen Invasion block already many years before that, with its own solid gold designs. I'm looking for more Watchwolves. RTR gave them to us. Dreadbore is a "watchwolf". Rakdos's Return, Sphinx's Revelation, Detention Sphere, Judge's Familiar, even Izzet Staticaster are all good examples of these. Mana cost is part of the appeal and feel of these cards. Watchwolf would not be a watchwolf if it cost 1GW.
Purge the Profane is a great example of a card that was bashed over the head in a completely unnecessary way. At 1WB, the card feels like a perfect counterpart to Blightning, a powerful card that wasn't broken. (it wasn't even played that much until Bloodbraid Elf, the broken part). At 2WB, the card is still elegant, but you feel like a complete chump for trying to use it.
I think what the OP meant by classic was cards that have very simple effect, this effect is very representative of that color / color pair and it's constructed playable. Example of classic spells in M13: Oblivion Ring, Negate, Clone, Searing Spear, Far Seek.
Well said. But what I think saves RTR here is the hybrid uncommon cycle, they all feel pretty good in their colors. (Slitherhead, Blistercoil Weird, Judge's Familiar, Dryad Militant, Rakdos Cackler). First two don't quite pull their weight, but they get by.
You also have Izzet Staticaster and Treasured Find among clean uncommons that are also fairly playable.
Even rares/mythics of this type would be fine, but you don't have many of those in Gatecrash either.
Orzhov Charm is just a worse Vendetta which is already a marginal card. Outside of a Standard environment that has next to 0 good removal, it's unplayable, and the other two modes are both awful for various reasons I've gone into elsewhere.
It's funny because at last two decks from modern are welcoming it... The fact you don't like a card or that it don't fit the strategies you consider viable, don't make a card bad.
I think what the OP meant by classic was cards that have very simple effect, this effect is very representative of that color / color pair and it's constructed playable. Example of classic spells in M13: Oblivion Ring, Negate, Clone, Searing Spear,Far Seek.
In gold sets we expect things like Terminate, Watchwolf and Electrolyze. Both RTR and GTC doesn't have those kind of cards, except for the charm cycle. RTR has some classic rares (Dreadbore, Rakdos's Return and Sphinx's Revelation) though.
GTC have varius "classic" effects. The fact is that people consider them unplayable due to other factors, not about them being "classic" or not.
The main issue with GTC is that WotC was so conservative with most spell costs to make them playable.
There's a lot of cards with "classic feel" at CMC 4 or 5, that could cost 3, be playable, and don't be broken.
So this rant isn't all about "classic" but just another rant about card playability.
A good 3 drop in white (Frontline Medic) with a decent ability that can also counter target spell with X in it's cost sounds like it could go the distance
I think you're totally jumping the gun by making 'retrospective' style card eval thread before the set has ran its course, much less even had a chance to prove itself in a freaking prerelease.
I can't help but agree about watering down what could've been good cards. A good example is Rakdos Ringleader. A 3/1 first strike regenerator with hypnotic specter ability would be some awesome... at 3 mana, but still not might make the cut in constructed. At 4 mana it would've at least been a cool card for casual but wizards had to make it not 5... but 6 mana??? What a waste of a cool card.
That's not really fair. Not everyone plays every format. If someone only gets a chance to play Standard and they see a sweet card from Gatecrash that, because it costs a couple more mana, can't really get played in that format, then they'll never get a chance to cast it. It can be really disheartening to see a card that's really interesting but you know you'll never get a chance to play with it because it isn't quite tailored to the format you get to play. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to look at the set and see that this one happens not to have as many cards for their kind of Magic and be disappointed.
The reason why Standard is relevant to a lot of benchmarking is because most (but not all) cards from expansions that don't get played there won't get played in Modern, Legacy or Vintage either (since the power level of Standard is much lower.)
But this is literally true of every set. Only a handful of cards are Constructed playable. I'm really not sure why GTC is getting singled out here--there are tons of cards that are fantastic from other sets that just aren't really playable in any format. Search the City is an awesome card that will never see play anywhere.
The OP is prejudging GTC based on its lack of super-aggressively costed gold cards. I think he'll be eating his words in a few months--Eeyoring about the new set is an MTGS tradition.
I can't help but agree about watering down what could've been good cards. A good example is Rakdos Ringleader. A 3/1 first strike regenerator with hypnotic specter ability would be some awesome... at 3 mana, but still not might make the cut in constructed. At 4 mana it would've at least been a cool card for casual but wizards had to make it not 5... but 6 mana???
That's is how i feel about most orzhov cards.
There is plenty of "exiting effects" if you ignore most of the CMC. Differently from what the OP claim.
That's not really fair. Not everyone plays every format. If someone only gets a chance to play Standard and they see a sweet card from Gatecrash that, because it costs a couple more mana, can't really get played in that format, then they'll never get a chance to cast it. It can be really disheartening to see a card that's really interesting but you know you'll never get a chance to play with it because it isn't quite tailored to the format you get to play. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to look at the set and see that this one happens not to have as many cards for their kind of Magic and be disappointed.
It has nothing to do with formats, the OP complained that there isn't "exiting effects" and "cards with classic feel", but these cards exist, they're just too overcosted to be played.
It has nothing to do with formats, the OP complained that there isn't "exiting effects" and "cards with classic feel", but these cards exist, they're just too overcosted to be played.
A card to be "classic" need to be constructed playable. What's memorable about limited junk ? The casting cost is a integral part of the card, you can't consider something classic, nice or cool without considering the casting cost.
As mentioned before, Watchwolf is a classic. It would certainly not be if it costed 1GW. Another example: Blightning is a classic, Skull Rend isn't.
The cards don't need to be bonkers, thats not the matter here. I just think every guild should get at least one good common. Some got it (Centaur Healer, Goblin Electromancer) but most didn't.
A card to be "classic" need to be constructed playable.
Where this rule was writtend dow? Many "classic" cards aren't that playable.
Or are you going to say that there is something more "classic" than a Serra Angel?
A card to be "classic" need to be constructed playable. What's memorable about limited junk?
I'd wager a lot, to limited players. Then you start looking at cards like Windrider Eel, Chrome Steed, Rally the Forces, Alpha Tyrranax, Spider Spawning and Thatcher Revolt and realize you don't have a monopoly on what people consider "classic."
Where this rule was writtend dow? Many "classic" cards aren't that playable.
Or are you going to say that there is something more "classic" than a Serra Angel?
I believe the idea is that, at one point, Serra Angel was one of if not the best of creatures, which is why all these years later you think of it as a classic card.
Constructed-unplayable cards cannot be "classic" because cards that are not played will not be remembered by a wide array of people. You remember cards that you had fun playing with a lot, not just in passing every now and again in drafts or sealed. You talk about them with your friends years later: "Hey, do you guys remember X? That card really enabled Y to become a tier one deck in when Z was in Standard. Man, I loved that deck."
Can your circle of friends have fond memories of janky cards you used to play with before you learned better? Perhaps, but that's not really a "classic" card, at least not how I interpret the OP defining it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
#define ALWAYS SOMETIMES
#define NEVER RARELY
#define ALL MANY
-=GIVE US SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN=-
I'm nerd enough to link my WoW Armory Though I'll put it in a small font.
I believe the idea is that, at one point, Serra Angel was one of if not the best of creatures, which is why all these years later you think of it as a classic card.
Constructed-unplayable cards cannot be "classic" because cards that are not played will not be remembered by a wide array of people. You remember cards that you had fun playing with a lot, not just in passing every now and again in drafts or sealed. You talk about them with your friends years later: "Hey, do you guys remember X? That card really enabled Y to become a tier one deck in when Z was in Standard. Man, I loved that deck."
Can your circle of friends have fond memories of janky cards you used to play with before you learned better? Perhaps, but that's not really a "classic" card, at least not how I interpret the OP defining it.
Except that Standard Constructed isn't exactly the only format.
Except that Standard Constructed isn't exactly the only format.
Don't be dense, if you replace the word standard in that comment (which was using standard as an example and he specifically said constructed before to avoid this exact misunderstanding) with the name of any other constructed format, the point remains.
And cards like these. All of these effects were very exciting when printed without being broken; and some are still relevant. There are others, too, which were powerful in the day and no longer are as impactful. (Watchwolf; Giant Solifuge; Glare of Subdual; etc.)
Or think back to Invasion block- very classic spells like:
Now, you might say "it's impossible to keep doing that". But it really isn't, at least in the context of Ravnica's two-color guilds; not yet. How do we know? RTR did it, to a good extent.
See:
- Rakdos's Return
- Sphinx's Revelation
(both very classic X-spells which were new and very good without being broken)Even Epic Experiment is good in its own way; it's an effect that is already somewhat playable, has a lot of potential and could easily become great in the right environment.
Detention Sphere (great riff on O-ring)
Supreme Verdict
Abrupt Decay (great riff on Maelstrom Pulse)
Deathrite Shaman (overpowered as hell, but he will be the 'classic' BG mana dork for years to come, like Noble Hierarch for WUG).
Admittedly Selesnya and Izzet got a little shafted in the "classic spells" department, and I'm not happy about that, but there's still Armada Wurm and the already mentioned Epic Experiment, which are something.
Only part of this is due to the uncounterable & one-drop hybrid cycles; the X-spells and D Sphere aren't in this category, and it's not exactly impossible to make great classic two-color cards without using that cycle.
Gatecrash seems to be highly lacking in this. For example, before Gatecrash was released, I was very interested to see what the BW take on removal would be (on par with D Sphere, Abrupt Decay, Verdict, etc. - and it doesn't have to be uncounterable to be good). Given that, you know, BW is THE colors of removal, especially for creatures (see for example Unmake). It's also THE colors of wrath effects, and you would think that Wizards would put a real effort into an Orzhov Wrath, given that the only one we have, from previous Ravnica block, was underwhelming and quite awful.
Apart from limited-only filler like Executioner's Swing, which feels kinda dumb anyway because it comes so soon after Avenging Arrow, the closest we get is Merciless Eviction. Cue "underwhelming and quite bad Wrath #2 for BW"? Imagine if Vindicate had cost 5 mana, we wouldn't be talking about how classic it was. (as an example, see again: Unmake). Another example: Purge the Profane. This would have been marginally decent at 1WB. In fact, it's kind of insane that it's not 1WB, given that Mind Rot is already very weak at 2B, and gold color costs are supposed to upgrade the spell, not make them complete trash. Also see Blightning, a card that is both very good and quite fair without cascade (cascade is the unfair part, pretty obviously). This really feels like Development having a nervous breakdown and wetting the bed.
It's not just Orzhov, either, though it's the one I'm personally most interested in. Simic has nothing equivalent to a Voidslime or a Trygon Predator, though it does have one of the better 'iconic' spells in the set with Urban Evolution. Gruul basically gets completely screwed in this department, and Boros gets the complicated and inelegant Aurelia's Fury, which is a decent fireball/fog effect, but nothing particularly classic, and it's a very slow card that's clearly not going anywhere outside of Standard. Dimir, well... even if Whispering Madness ends up being great, Cipher still doesn't feel particularly iconic or even particularly representative of UB. And there's not much else.
Keep in mind- I don't mind the powering down at all, but mid-block was the wrong time to do it, especially in the middle of a block that's divided into 2 sets of 5 color-pair guilds. Did they think people wouldn't notice the assymetry? Really? Also keep in mind this isn't purely a power level discussion; it's also about design. When I want to buy a gold set, I look for clean, reasonably powerful gold cards which beautifully reflect the color pair at work. Most of the clean stuff feels like it was randomly overcosted for no reason, like Purge the Profane and Spark Trooper, and the few things I think are reasonably powerful aren't the kind of iconic spell or effect that draws me in (Boros Charm, Dimir Charm...)
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Just because you don't like Merciless Eviction doesn't mean that the set sucks. Merciless Eviction is one of the most powerful and flexible sweepers ever printed. It's not Wizards' fault that you think it would be more "special" at 4 or 5 mana.
Standard: W/R Aggro
I agree that it's a bummer we don't see any Supreme Virdict or Abrupt Decay style staples in GTC... but we can't always do the same ole same. It gives us less to look forward to next time. Who knows what we'll see in Dragon's Maze...
The intersection of both, really. Not on all the cards, but at least some of the cards.
Tilling's a reprint, so it's not a reason to like the set. The other two are fine, but not particularly interesting outside of limited. I would appreciate them a lot more if the set also offered the central "pillar" gold cards (or gold enablers) which I expect from a gold set. I remember when Alara Reborn was released, cards like Qasali Pridemage, Putrid Leech, Zealous Persecution, Behemoth Sledge, etc. anchored the whole set for me. (not BBE and bad cascade designs). That way, the cleaner (but non-powerful) designs also get appreciated more.
One of the most powerful? Don't agree. Flexible, yes, though Austere Command is much more flexible without even costing two separate colors, and also quite fair.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Because this is Return to Ranvina, not "From the Vaults: Ravnica"
"Why they didn't reprint [insert the name of a very powerful spell that would break standard here]"
Spells such as Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, Gerrard's Verdict won't get reprited on standard legal sets, it's time for people stop trying to bringing them EVERY SINGLE SET.
And why would you want Fires of Yavimaya when Fervor is on M13 and barely see play.
Yeah, GTC don't have any instant staple like RTR did, this is a bit sad, but the set isn't weak.
This reads like a complaint about power level, and I wish it was just couched as such instead of throwing in words like "classic," "pillar" and "enablers." Putrid Leech is not a "gold enabler," it's just a high-power card. There's no difference between Zealous Persecution and Merciless Eviction in terms of anything but power--they're both flexible cards that apply global effects in ways that convey a strong feel of both white and black mechanics. There are reasons to like Zealous Persecution better, but that's almost entirely because it's more immediately pushed for Constructed formats.
It's Final Judgment with three additional modes for the same converted mana cost. Austere Command doesn't exile anything and can't hit planeswalkers. If Austere Command is the only effect you can compare it to unfavorably, then "one of the most powerful" is something you're actually agreeing with.
Standard: W/R Aggro
Not asking for reprints.
I don't want a reprint of Fires or any reprints at all. Just new cards that are on that level of good design and utility.
Why? Austere Command is an EDH staple but not much more than that. Merciless Eviction is decent in EDH but much less of a staple because it's BW and the EDH rules about color make it 90% less splashable.
Comparing it to Final Judgment doesn't yield any huge favors considering that - (1) it's gold and (2) Final Judgment has never been anything worthwhile.
Top sweepers for constructed play?
All of these remain constructed staples or were big staples in 60 card formats. Sweepers that cost more than 4 are quite weak in constructed and always have been, except the one that has Miracle W. The usefulness of the primary mode (exile all creatures) begins dropping drastically by turn 8-9 when you have a 60% or so chance of casting this (land drop curve) since the board should have already been swept by then and stabilized, and turning off Geralf's Messenger on turn 9 is far from anything special. Turning your 6 mana spell into Dreadbore for a PW isn't the kind of utility that adds a ton of value either.
Not all flexible cards are good. For example of the Command cycle, only 1 was ridiculous (Cryptic, surprise), 1 was constructed staple (Profane), 1 was constructed fringe card (Primal), and 2 didn't see much play (Austere & Incindiery).
Similarly, most charms have been pretty awful in Magic's history, and at most they have been "OK" in Standard (Alara for example). The extra price paid for flexibility is only sometimes worth it.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
[Clan Flamingo]
The flexibility it offers is huge and it means it can be used to deal with almost anything. We won't know for a while if it's going to be as good as it is useful but safe to say it's a key spell in keeping decks that want to spam something other than creatures in check
In gold sets we expect things like Terminate, Watchwolf and Electrolyze. Both RTR and GTC doesn't have those kind of cards, except for the charm cycle. RTR has some classic rares (Dreadbore, Rakdos's Return and Sphinx's Revelation) though.
I believe the reason is the charms. They are the pushed gold uncommon of this set, have no doubt about that. Still, they don't feel really classic, due the complicated effects and huge text wall.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
I can't call it a "classic" by any stretch of the imagination; it's not a card you talk about two years later. Same is true for a lot of these. I love Obzedat and Aurelia as guild leaders, but like the original Ravnica guild leaders, they're meant primarily for EDH and casual legendary collections (tons of people still have a binder page for the original Ravnica guild leaders). While both are fun legendary Commander designs, neither is a staple effect of its color pair.
Even two years after Ravnica was out, you still looked at a card like Watchwolf as a very cool and reasonably powerful GW card. Felt very GW, too. It wasn't because I was new or because gold was new, because neither is true; I'd seen Invasion block already many years before that, with its own solid gold designs. I'm looking for more Watchwolves. RTR gave them to us. Dreadbore is a "watchwolf". Rakdos's Return, Sphinx's Revelation, Detention Sphere, Judge's Familiar, even Izzet Staticaster are all good examples of these. Mana cost is part of the appeal and feel of these cards. Watchwolf would not be a watchwolf if it cost 1GW.
Purge the Profane is a great example of a card that was bashed over the head in a completely unnecessary way. At 1WB, the card feels like a perfect counterpart to Blightning, a powerful card that wasn't broken. (it wasn't even played that much until Bloodbraid Elf, the broken part). At 2WB, the card is still elegant, but you feel like a complete chump for trying to use it.
Well said. But what I think saves RTR here is the hybrid uncommon cycle, they all feel pretty good in their colors. (Slitherhead, Blistercoil Weird, Judge's Familiar, Dryad Militant, Rakdos Cackler). First two don't quite pull their weight, but they get by.
You also have Izzet Staticaster and Treasured Find among clean uncommons that are also fairly playable.
Even rares/mythics of this type would be fine, but you don't have many of those in Gatecrash either.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
GTC have varius "classic" effects. The fact is that people consider them unplayable due to other factors, not about them being "classic" or not.
The main issue with GTC is that WotC was so conservative with most spell costs to make them playable.
There's a lot of cards with "classic feel" at CMC 4 or 5, that could cost 3, be playable, and don't be broken.
So this rant isn't all about "classic" but just another rant about card playability.
Why do you think this board needs another one?
But this is literally true of every set. Only a handful of cards are Constructed playable. I'm really not sure why GTC is getting singled out here--there are tons of cards that are fantastic from other sets that just aren't really playable in any format. Search the City is an awesome card that will never see play anywhere.
The OP is prejudging GTC based on its lack of super-aggressively costed gold cards. I think he'll be eating his words in a few months--Eeyoring about the new set is an MTGS tradition.
Standard: W/R Aggro
There is plenty of "exiting effects" if you ignore most of the CMC. Differently from what the OP claim.
It has nothing to do with formats, the OP complained that there isn't "exiting effects" and "cards with classic feel", but these cards exist, they're just too overcosted to be played.
IMO this thread is just another rant about not reprinting overpower cards like Lightning Helix, Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, Gerrard's Verdict that pops every single spoiler season.
A card to be "classic" need to be constructed playable. What's memorable about limited junk ? The casting cost is a integral part of the card, you can't consider something classic, nice or cool without considering the casting cost.
As mentioned before, Watchwolf is a classic. It would certainly not be if it costed 1GW. Another example: Blightning is a classic, Skull Rend isn't.
The cards don't need to be bonkers, thats not the matter here. I just think every guild should get at least one good common. Some got it (Centaur Healer, Goblin Electromancer) but most didn't.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Where this rule was writtend dow? Many "classic" cards aren't that playable.
Or are you going to say that there is something more "classic" than a Serra Angel?
Don't take me wrong... but this point is ridiculous.
Playability have nothing to do with the "classic" feel of the cards.
Seriously, so you add a 1 on a card and it is no longer "classic"
I'd wager a lot, to limited players. Then you start looking at cards like Windrider Eel, Chrome Steed, Rally the Forces, Alpha Tyrranax, Spider Spawning and Thatcher Revolt and realize you don't have a monopoly on what people consider "classic."
Standard: W/R Aggro
Constructed-unplayable cards cannot be "classic" because cards that are not played will not be remembered by a wide array of people. You remember cards that you had fun playing with a lot, not just in passing every now and again in drafts or sealed. You talk about them with your friends years later: "Hey, do you guys remember X? That card really enabled Y to become a tier one deck in when Z was in Standard. Man, I loved that deck."
Can your circle of friends have fond memories of janky cards you used to play with before you learned better? Perhaps, but that's not really a "classic" card, at least not how I interpret the OP defining it.
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
Except that Standard Constructed isn't exactly the only format.
Standard: W/R Aggro
Playability has no direct relationship to that.
Some cards become "classic" because of how bad they are!
Don't be dense, if you replace the word standard in that comment (which was using standard as an example and he specifically said constructed before to avoid this exact misunderstanding) with the name of any other constructed format, the point remains.
Draft it on Cubetutor!