I guess the ideas is you get a few Evolve creatures out, then pull the counters off them, make a guy, and the guy puts the counters back on them.
Doesn't mean I particularly like it, being 4 CMC + an activation cost, but I can see what they're trying to do, along with the obvious Undying interaction.
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Thrull parasite + this for undying? I hope Boros gets a cheap "remove dude from game card". Is there anyone main boarding anti-enchant spells beside Abrupt Decay? This and Blind obidience will see some FNM play.
This seems like quite the sweet Undying/Evolve tech. Remove counters and get them right back, or reset your undying guy. I look forward to brewing with this in casual and EDH; there are a lot of fun combos with stuff like Death's Presence (reduce, reuse, recycle!) and Cathar's Cruscade (as mentioned in the article, insta-slime factory).
It also just happens to be a bomb if you're drafting Simic. At a certain point, removal just stops working. The only thing that would prevent this from seeing constructed play is weakness to wrath.
Like the first post said we might see Undying decks with this card as the engine.
So I'll pick some Undying creatures, add removals, maybe some regeneration as well, and what I have is a very resilient deck. I'll just hope that my opponent doesn't have any RIPs.
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It's a neat card, and I'll think about it in my Ghave tokens deck, but a 4 mana enchantment that needs fair amount of hoops to get any effect won't see competitive play. Any good undying creature is very aggro, while this card is very not.
Pack Rat just needed a handful of cards. This requires a pretty specific build to work. Don't get me wrong, I like it a lot, but Pack Rat it is not.
Pack Rat was a one-card combo that could defeat almost any deck if played turn 2. There were very few cards in the format that could deal with it that early, and most of them were rare.
This card comes out turn 4 and requires other cards to do anything. And the other cards that it requires? They require other cards too.
Pack Rat was a one-card combo that could defeat almost any deck if played turn 2. There were very few cards in the format that could deal with it that early, and most of them were rare.
This card comes out turn 4 and requires other cards to do anything. And the other cards that it requires? They require other cards too.
We're arguing the same point. Pack Rat just needs cards in hand. This requires careful construction, or else it's useless. In Limited, unless you have a real good thing going, it's never gonna see the light of day.
We're arguing the same point. Pack Rat just needs cards in hand. This requires careful construction, or else it's useless. In Limited, unless you have a real good thing going, it's never gonna see the light of day.
True. I'm even struggling to find a situation where this is useful ever except with undying shenanigans.
so... are people trying to say pack rat is a good card? lol
this card isn't crazy or bonkers but there could be some fun with it. I seriously doubt it will see big tournament play other than a couple rogue builders at fnm.
True. I'm even struggling to find a situation where this is useful ever except with undying shenanigans.
It poses an interesting interaction with evolve...build a big enough field with creatures, and you can just pare off a +1/+1 counter from each and they just replace. And even without a large field, pull off enough tokens from each and you still retrigger evolve anyways...good things with Fathom Mage. Likewise with Cathar's Crusade, it'll retrigger counters coming down. Finally, these tokens are likely really good Populate targets in constructed, particularly if you have Death's Presence. I don't see this jumping into tournament decks everywhere, but it's a fun Casual card at least.
so... are people trying to say pack rat is a good card? lol
It is very good...in limited. That is the forum I'm taking the comment as and the framework of my statement. In limited, Pack Rat can take over with just a mitt-full of cards, whereas this will likely suffer in a limited environment.
It poses an interesting interaction with evolve...build a big enough field with creatures, and you can just pare off a +1/+1 counter from each and they just replace. And even without a large field, pull off enough tokens from each and you still retrigger evolve anyways...good things with Fathom Mage. Likewise with Cathar's Crusade, it'll retrigger counters coming down. I don't see this jumping into tournament decks everywhere, but it's a fun Casual card at least.
Yes, I get how it was intended to be used. But that makes so many assumptions. It assumes that you have a very large number of +1/+1 counters AND that it would be beneficial to actually make your creatures smaller. This is certainly true in some cases like Fathom Mage, but is it worth spending a card and a decent chunk of mana to do it?
Edit: The whole thing with Pack Rat was just because the guy called this the "new" pack rats, which is a statement so absurd that I couldn't help myself.
Eh, for me, this is a build around card, and such a thing always, always appeals to me anyways. This is as much of a quirky enabler for Evolve as Assemble the Legion is for Battalion. It does it in kind of a sideways way.
Yes, I get how it was intended to be used. But that makes so many assumptions. It assumes that you have a very large number of +1/+1 counters AND that it would be beneficial to actually make your creatures smaller. This is certainly true in some cases like Fathom Mage, but is it worth spending a card and a decent chunk of mana to do it?
Edit: The whole thing with Pack Rat was just because the guy called this the "new" pack rats, which is a statement so absurd that I couldn't help myself.
It isn't always a net loss on the evolve creatures. If they don't already have tons of counters you can just pump out 2/2 ooze tokens and keep them your evolvers at 1 or 2 counters.
Eh, for me, this is a build around card, and such a thing always, always appeals to me anyways. This is as much of a quirky enabler for Evolve as Assemble the Legion is for Battalion. It does it in kind of a sideways way.
I'd argue that Assemble the Legion isn't even really meant to be a Battalion card. It certainly isn't remotely aggressive. And it is actually good even with no other permanents on the board just because the inevitability of it.
The ooze certainly seems to be a build around card. Or a situational card in a deck that is filled with nothing but evolve creatures.
Thrull parasite + this for undying? I hope Boros gets a cheap "remove dude from game card". Is there anyone main boarding anti-enchant spells beside Abrupt Decay? This and Blind obidience will see some FNM play.
I use golgari charm as enchant hate, its surper useful in all 3 modes i think
so... are people trying to say pack rat is a good card? lol.
On limited it is VERY good. In fact one of the most broken limited cards. Where packs of removals and sweepers aren't that common, so you can get huge dudes for the cost of a card.
I like this enchantment. With some simple setups you can get a strong token generation engine. With is good with the evolve dudes and helps getting board presence without spending cards and over extending.
You don't need a lot of creatures and such.
A singe 0/x evolve creature with a counter can become a 1G: put a token 1/1 in play.
playng 1G per token on green?
It also can work with 2 2/x or x/2 evolve creatures and become 1G: put a 2/2 token in play.
And if simic got some other creatures with effects upon placing counters on them like fanthom mage, it might become stronger.
Not to mention it's utility for undying.
I don't know if it will see play, but there's plenty of interactions available.
This helps with evolves weakness of late game drops by re-evolving your board.
1,2,3 drop evolvers, this, then 1 drop evolver, and create 2 3/3 tokens while evolving your 1 drop up +2/2 and re-evolving your 1,2,3 drops to where they were to start with.
At 6 mana this can have immediate impact by making a token, then next turn create 3 more tokens.
Can help recover from a sweeper or build a board without committing more cards, keep the engine going with card draw on the fathom mage and guild mage.
There has to be some sort of ramp/undying/evolve/populate/draw engine deck for simic that would be competitive. Run some counter spells to stop disruption. Add black for corsejack and golgari charm maybe. Trostani for lols.
How the hell I thought that's CMC 2 and matches Blind Obedience... gahhh. Still, making evolvers thinner, then popping Ooze to boost them again, repeat, is not that bad; I still would prefer it cheaper, though.
The good part here really is that it generates board value without having to spent cards for it (thus being awesome for limited). The costs to do that aren't really good imo (turn 4 enchantment to create a x/x for 2 where x is the number of your evolvers) but yeah ... no cards used. Maybe this will work in block constructed for a selesnya/simic deck. Populate ooze while evolving. Your guys get more and become stronger at the same time.
Technically you have to count the enchantment itself as a card. So in order to just get value for itself you'd need to probably create at least 3-4 power worth of creatures. It is actually feasible that to get 4 power worth of tokens on the board you may have to spend this card and 8+ mana. And hopefully you didn't need the counters on your other creatures or were able to replenish them.
Don't get me wrong, if you somehow have a ton of evolve creatures on the board and you and your opponent are in a serious deadlock this thing can do some serious work. But if you're losing, this card is horrible. If you are winning it is probably too slow to put any more real pressure on your opponent.
Compare this to Growing Ranks, which I find to be better than this in almost every scenario.
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Discuss!
Another means for Undying to be abused, awsome. WHY WIZARDS, WHY!
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Doesn't mean I particularly like it, being 4 CMC + an activation cost, but I can see what they're trying to do, along with the obvious Undying interaction.
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Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
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It also just happens to be a bomb if you're drafting Simic. At a certain point, removal just stops working. The only thing that would prevent this from seeing constructed play is weakness to wrath.
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So I'll pick some Undying creatures, add removals, maybe some regeneration as well, and what I have is a very resilient deck. I'll just hope that my opponent doesn't have any RIPs.
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Surely, you're not even close to serious? Nah...you can't be.
Pack Rat just needed a handful of cards. This requires a pretty specific build to work. Don't get me wrong, I like it a lot, but Pack Rat it is not.
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Pack Rat was a one-card combo that could defeat almost any deck if played turn 2. There were very few cards in the format that could deal with it that early, and most of them were rare.
This card comes out turn 4 and requires other cards to do anything. And the other cards that it requires? They require other cards too.
We're arguing the same point. Pack Rat just needs cards in hand. This requires careful construction, or else it's useless. In Limited, unless you have a real good thing going, it's never gonna see the light of day.
The creator of Maro's Magic 8-Ball!
True. I'm even struggling to find a situation where this is useful ever except with undying shenanigans.
this card isn't crazy or bonkers but there could be some fun with it. I seriously doubt it will see big tournament play other than a couple rogue builders at fnm.
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
It poses an interesting interaction with evolve...build a big enough field with creatures, and you can just pare off a +1/+1 counter from each and they just replace. And even without a large field, pull off enough tokens from each and you still retrigger evolve anyways...good things with Fathom Mage. Likewise with Cathar's Crusade, it'll retrigger counters coming down. Finally, these tokens are likely really good Populate targets in constructed, particularly if you have Death's Presence. I don't see this jumping into tournament decks everywhere, but it's a fun Casual card at least.
It is very good...in limited. That is the forum I'm taking the comment as and the framework of my statement. In limited, Pack Rat can take over with just a mitt-full of cards, whereas this will likely suffer in a limited environment.
The creator of Maro's Magic 8-Ball!
Yes, I get how it was intended to be used. But that makes so many assumptions. It assumes that you have a very large number of +1/+1 counters AND that it would be beneficial to actually make your creatures smaller. This is certainly true in some cases like Fathom Mage, but is it worth spending a card and a decent chunk of mana to do it?
Edit: The whole thing with Pack Rat was just because the guy called this the "new" pack rats, which is a statement so absurd that I couldn't help myself.
The creator of Maro's Magic 8-Ball!
I'd argue that Assemble the Legion isn't even really meant to be a Battalion card. It certainly isn't remotely aggressive. And it is actually good even with no other permanents on the board just because the inevitability of it.
The ooze certainly seems to be a build around card. Or a situational card in a deck that is filled with nothing but evolve creatures.
I use golgari charm as enchant hate, its surper useful in all 3 modes i think
I like this enchantment. With some simple setups you can get a strong token generation engine. With is good with the evolve dudes and helps getting board presence without spending cards and over extending.
You don't need a lot of creatures and such.
A singe 0/x evolve creature with a counter can become a 1G: put a token 1/1 in play.
playng 1G per token on green?
It also can work with 2 2/x or x/2 evolve creatures and become
1G: put a 2/2 token in play.
And if simic got some other creatures with effects upon placing counters on them like fanthom mage, it might become stronger.
Not to mention it's utility for undying.
I don't know if it will see play, but there's plenty of interactions available.
1,2,3 drop evolvers, this, then 1 drop evolver, and create 2 3/3 tokens while evolving your 1 drop up +2/2 and re-evolving your 1,2,3 drops to where they were to start with.
At 6 mana this can have immediate impact by making a token, then next turn create 3 more tokens.
Can help recover from a sweeper or build a board without committing more cards, keep the engine going with card draw on the fathom mage and guild mage.
There has to be some sort of ramp/undying/evolve/populate/draw engine deck for simic that would be competitive. Run some counter spells to stop disruption. Add black for corsejack and golgari charm maybe. Trostani for lols.
Technically you have to count the enchantment itself as a card. So in order to just get value for itself you'd need to probably create at least 3-4 power worth of creatures. It is actually feasible that to get 4 power worth of tokens on the board you may have to spend this card and 8+ mana. And hopefully you didn't need the counters on your other creatures or were able to replenish them.
Don't get me wrong, if you somehow have a ton of evolve creatures on the board and you and your opponent are in a serious deadlock this thing can do some serious work. But if you're losing, this card is horrible. If you are winning it is probably too slow to put any more real pressure on your opponent.
Compare this to Growing Ranks, which I find to be better than this in almost every scenario.