As I pointed out in the spoiler thread, this card just smacks of the old pump-knights from Fallen Empires and Ice Age. I don't care whether it ends up being good in limited or standard, the resemblance to some of my favorite creatures from my early days of Magic is getting me all nostalgic. What do you guys think?
IMO, this is standard playable. A good mana sink is welcome in a deck that doesn't want to over-extend if possible (Stonewright). Combined with Boros Charm, this will allow for the deck to be more flexible. I like it, and will be happy to test it.
Idk we still have Elite Inquisitor in standard and it sees no play even with relevant protection and free first strike.
Fair point, but the pump ability is extremely relevant late game. In fact, it can be outright game winning. As far as first strike is concerned, the threat of activating it should be enough under most circumstances to save that extra 2 mana for one more pump.
This card is absolutely standard playable. effects like pumpable first strike are close to having actual first strike, assuming you play in a manner that makes your opponent respect that it's there.
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Fair point, but the pump ability is extremely relevant late game. In fact, it can be outright game winning.
True, but isn't that role better fulfilled by Stonewright with its all in all in cheaper cost and pseudo-haste? This card can be a limited bomb but I'm not sure if its enough to break into standard.
True, but isn't that role better fulfilled by Stonewright with its all in all in cheaper cost and pseudo-haste? This card can be a limited bomb but I'm not sure if its enough to break into standard.
I suppose that's debatable. Are there cards that do things better than the Paladin? Certainly. But the Paladin does a lot all on his own, and that's where the value lies.
I think a bi-color Knight of Stromgald can still be relevant in today's game. I guess we'll see.
This guy is mental mid-late game, he can topdeck out of nowhere and absolutely destroy your opponent, and requires no liabilities like the gruul guy does with your lands. Early on he's a bear that can stop ground forces from getting much done at all and still attack. It's NUTS at all points of the game, and will be a prime removal target. Expect to see this guy in standard en masse.
What I like about this card is late game as a lot of people are saying he has a lot more value as a mana sink...To be devils advocate against the stonewright is that stonewright yes most likely could do it more efficiently...but a strategy with him is also much weaker in that he's easy to kill where Truefire Paladin has it all built in him! I also much rather have the paladin as a top deck late game then stonewright in that to get value out of the stonewright I would need another creature....Whether it's standard playable depends on the meta and the decks that would compliment him the most but suffice to say he's definitely a solid card for Boros....
True, but isn't that role better fulfilled by Stonewright with its all in all in cheaper cost and pseudo-haste? This card can be a limited bomb but I'm not sure if its enough to break into standard.
Optimally, you really don't want to be running Stonewright outside of Mono R, even with Sacred Foundry available to us. I've run Stonewright with 16 R sources in the past but optimally I believe you want around 20. Of course, hes also more vulnerable.
You can point to how Elite Inquisitor and Precinct Captain don't see play, but that has more to do with their tribe than the cards themselves. There's currently no reason to run human aggro since the deck lacks any type of resiliency/haste (even if some is pseudo). Once we get Boros Charm and some shocks, it's a whole new ball game.
Well, anyone worth their salt can tell you this is gonna be excellent in Limited.
I don't want to seem like a negative nancy or anything, but this is the type of card that would have gotten one more keyword and dumped in a rare slot in RTR... I feel like there were so many "here's an uncommon effect you know and love... Oh right, we out it at rare because we beefed it up a just a little." I know, that isn't an entirely true or fair assessment.
Anyway, I will be windmill slamming this little bugger sometime in the next three to four months.
It doesn't "smack" the Fallen Empires knights at all, it's probably way worse. I'm guessing this would most of the time function as an unblockable bear, which in itself is ok. It has bad synergy with haste dudes, though, and that is probably very relevant in this meta (Hellrider).
I think the vigilance on this guy is being overlooked, especially since he has the potential for first strike as well. I'm thinking he's definitely taking the spots Gore-House Chainwalker has set aside in my Boros Humans deck currently.
Being a mana sink late game is quite valuable, and this guy does it very well. It's made even better by the fact that holding back mana for one of his activations means you might also be holding up Boros Charm. Very heady stuff here.
It doesn't "smack" the Fallen Empires knights at all, it's probably way worse. I'm guessing this would most of the time function as an unblockable bear, which in itself is ok. It has bad synergy with haste dudes, though, and that is probably very relevant in this meta (Hellrider).
The Fallen Empires knights were powerful largely due to their protection and the metas they were in. The black one was nigh unkillable in a meta where removal either was black with the "destroy target nonblack creature"-clause or Swords to Plowshares. The white knight IIRC was mainly used as a foil to the mono-black Necropotence decks that was running rampant.
On one hand this card does something that many people overlook, which is makes itself useful at nearly any stage. It should rarely be a dead card, and that is great. If as aggro you somehow manage to make it later into the game it acts as a mana-sink, and a potentially potent one that can easily represent 6+ damage if left unchecked. The vigilance is nice too because it allows you to attack with it while representing mana to pump it and save it if you want to if you plan on also blocking or using some kind of instant.
On the other hand it will never be the "ideal" drop on curve. Pretty much any other 2 drop represents a bigger threat when it comes down. Those threats will likely become less relevant later in the game than this, but should definitely be better on T2.
In a way it is like a "safe" aggressive card. In a hypothetical matchup against a control deck it is possible that you play this card and fail to kill your opponent when a more aggressive 2 drop would have let you get under. And it is also possible that you play this card and it lets you steal a game with its mana sink that a more aggressive card could not have. Is that going to be good enough? Meh, I dunno. At least it is a human as well if that has any bearing on anything.
I agree with the discussion so far as to his value in limited, but at the moment he doesn't have a fit in my Boros Humans deck. Post rotation though may be different.
On one hand this card does something that many people overlook, which is makes itself useful at nearly any stage. It should rarely be a dead card, and that is great. If as aggro you somehow manage to make it later into the game it acts as a mana-sink, and a potentially potent one that can easily represent 6+ damage if left unchecked. The vigilance is nice too because it allows you to attack with it while representing mana to pump it and save it if you want to if you plan on also blocking or using some kind of instant.
On the other hand it will never be the "ideal" drop on curve. Pretty much any other 2 drop represents a bigger threat when it comes down. Those threats will likely become less relevant later in the game than this, but should definitely be better on T2.
In a way it is like a "safe" aggressive card. In a hypothetical matchup against a control deck it is possible that you play this card and fail to kill your opponent when a more aggressive 2 drop would have let you get under. And it is also possible that you play this card and it lets you steal a game with its mana sink that a more aggressive card could not have. Is that going to be good enough? Meh, I dunno. At least it is a human as well if that has any bearing on anything.
This is false. There are plenty of 2-drops that this is on par with from a damage output perspective. In fact, in a vacuum, no other commonly played 2-drop can represent 4 damage by T3 (of course, this is a tempo loss) aside from Ash Zealot due to haste. There's no arguing that Ash Zealot is the go-to 2-drop, but this is easily the 2nd/3rd best (battling with Thalia) after Zealot.
Against control for example..
If you can go T1 CotP -> T2 Truefire Paladin -> T3 Silverblade Paladin while leaving mana up on T4, you are in a very good position.
Firstly, you are now applying a lot of quick pressure without even remotely over-extending. If Truefire Paladin is paired with Silverblade, it's now representing a possible 12 damage by itself. In the same vein, you are also now possibly representing Boros Charm. If your opponent is aware of Hypergeometric Distribution, he knows that there's about a 50% chance that you do in fact have a Boros Charm in hand and that it's a real threat.
The flexibility this provides to this type of deck is absolutely invaluable and easily sets it a tier above Precinct Captain, Elite Inquisitor, Knight of Glory Lightning Mauler and Gore-House Chainwalker in my eyes.
I think this is at least on par with the aforementioned cards early game and is clearly a superior draw/top deck mid-late game. Essentially it helps shore up weaknesses instead of just redundantly adding to an already rather narrow-minded strategy.
Sort of. You are making some assumptions here. Yes, that works well with Silverblade Paladin... and that is a fair discussion, but that is also another card and I was looking at it in a turn 2 vacuum so to speak.
You are also adding in the mana abilities as a given when using them prevents you from dropping things on the subsequent turns, which the other cards do not require. You are also discounting other things that make those cards good such as Inquisitor's protections and Precinct Captain's token making capability.
(ON THEIR OWN) some of those other cards will represent a more aggressive threat than this card.
If you had Precinct Captain, Inquisitor, Lightning Mauler, Thalia, and this card all in your hand you cannot say that this is going to automatically be the ideal aggro drop over those cards. You probably could make cases for all of them, actually, and a lot depends on your matchup.
Now I'm not trying to hate on this card either, in fact I quite like it, and I illustrated a lot of the reasons why. But I don't think you can say in a general sense that it is a better on curve drop than all of those cards.
The vigilance aspect of the card does make it a much more potent threat with silverblade paladin though I'll say, and that is something I didn't originally consider.
Most creatures are good with Silverblade Paladin, I don't think that's really a very weighty argument for Truefire Paladin.
I still think the activation costs on this are too expensive. It's also relevant that if you drop this turn 2, you cannot threaten pump and first strike on turn 3. In fact, any X/3 or larger will probably often be thrown in front of this, because if you waste your turn pumping this your opponent is probably ok with that.
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Fair point, but the pump ability is extremely relevant late game. In fact, it can be outright game winning. As far as first strike is concerned, the threat of activating it should be enough under most circumstances to save that extra 2 mana for one more pump.
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Bident Layers
B Devotion
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Modern:
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UW Control
Combo Pod
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RUG Delver
BUG Control
True, but isn't that role better fulfilled by Stonewright with its all in all in cheaper cost and pseudo-haste? This card can be a limited bomb but I'm not sure if its enough to break into standard.
I suppose that's debatable. Are there cards that do things better than the Paladin? Certainly. But the Paladin does a lot all on his own, and that's where the value lies.
I think a bi-color Knight of Stromgald can still be relevant in today's game. I guess we'll see.
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Optimally, you really don't want to be running Stonewright outside of Mono R, even with Sacred Foundry available to us. I've run Stonewright with 16 R sources in the past but optimally I believe you want around 20. Of course, hes also more vulnerable.
You can point to how Elite Inquisitor and Precinct Captain don't see play, but that has more to do with their tribe than the cards themselves. There's currently no reason to run human aggro since the deck lacks any type of resiliency/haste (even if some is pseudo). Once we get Boros Charm and some shocks, it's a whole new ball game.
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I don't want to seem like a negative nancy or anything, but this is the type of card that would have gotten one more keyword and dumped in a rare slot in RTR... I feel like there were so many "here's an uncommon effect you know and love... Oh right, we out it at rare because we beefed it up a just a little." I know, that isn't an entirely true or fair assessment.
Anyway, I will be windmill slamming this little bugger sometime in the next three to four months.
Absolutely loving the art but don't know how many copies I'd play when he becomes available.
Being a mana sink late game is quite valuable, and this guy does it very well. It's made even better by the fact that holding back mana for one of his activations means you might also be holding up Boros Charm. Very heady stuff here.
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How do you figure, on either account?
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The Fallen Empires knights were powerful largely due to their protection and the metas they were in. The black one was nigh unkillable in a meta where removal either was black with the "destroy target nonblack creature"-clause or Swords to Plowshares. The white knight IIRC was mainly used as a foil to the mono-black Necropotence decks that was running rampant.
On the other hand it will never be the "ideal" drop on curve. Pretty much any other 2 drop represents a bigger threat when it comes down. Those threats will likely become less relevant later in the game than this, but should definitely be better on T2.
In a way it is like a "safe" aggressive card. In a hypothetical matchup against a control deck it is possible that you play this card and fail to kill your opponent when a more aggressive 2 drop would have let you get under. And it is also possible that you play this card and it lets you steal a game with its mana sink that a more aggressive card could not have. Is that going to be good enough? Meh, I dunno. At least it is a human as well if that has any bearing on anything.
That said this set should really mix things up with the shock lands alone opening up color options more effectively like Naya and Esper, so who knows.
This is false. There are plenty of 2-drops that this is on par with from a damage output perspective. In fact, in a vacuum, no other commonly played 2-drop can represent 4 damage by T3 (of course, this is a tempo loss) aside from Ash Zealot due to haste. There's no arguing that Ash Zealot is the go-to 2-drop, but this is easily the 2nd/3rd best (battling with Thalia) after Zealot.
Against control for example..
If you can go T1 CotP -> T2 Truefire Paladin -> T3 Silverblade Paladin while leaving mana up on T4, you are in a very good position.
Firstly, you are now applying a lot of quick pressure without even remotely over-extending. If Truefire Paladin is paired with Silverblade, it's now representing a possible 12 damage by itself. In the same vein, you are also now possibly representing Boros Charm. If your opponent is aware of Hypergeometric Distribution, he knows that there's about a 50% chance that you do in fact have a Boros Charm in hand and that it's a real threat.
The flexibility this provides to this type of deck is absolutely invaluable and easily sets it a tier above Precinct Captain, Elite Inquisitor, Knight of Glory Lightning Mauler and Gore-House Chainwalker in my eyes.
I think this is at least on par with the aforementioned cards early game and is clearly a superior draw/top deck mid-late game. Essentially it helps shore up weaknesses instead of just redundantly adding to an already rather narrow-minded strategy.
You are also adding in the mana abilities as a given when using them prevents you from dropping things on the subsequent turns, which the other cards do not require. You are also discounting other things that make those cards good such as Inquisitor's protections and Precinct Captain's token making capability.
(ON THEIR OWN) some of those other cards will represent a more aggressive threat than this card.
If you had Precinct Captain, Inquisitor, Lightning Mauler, Thalia, and this card all in your hand you cannot say that this is going to automatically be the ideal aggro drop over those cards. You probably could make cases for all of them, actually, and a lot depends on your matchup.
Now I'm not trying to hate on this card either, in fact I quite like it, and I illustrated a lot of the reasons why. But I don't think you can say in a general sense that it is a better on curve drop than all of those cards.
The vigilance aspect of the card does make it a much more potent threat with silverblade paladin though I'll say, and that is something I didn't originally consider.
I still think the activation costs on this are too expensive. It's also relevant that if you drop this turn 2, you cannot threaten pump and first strike on turn 3. In fact, any X/3 or larger will probably often be thrown in front of this, because if you waste your turn pumping this your opponent is probably ok with that.