Q: How much would a spell with the text, "Draw 100 cards" cost?
--Dan A: From Noah Weil, Magic R&D:
.
But seriously Dan, what you've got is unprintable. Logistically, it would be quite time-consuming and obnoxious to count out 100 cards. While I appreciate that the number makes it niche (as opposed to draw 20, which could go anywhere), the power level still implies broken and/or extremely unfun.
To explain, let's go with a common R&D puzzle. What's the mana cost of this card?
gg ?
Sorcery
You win the game.
The answer here is there is no correct casting cost for this card. No matter what you put in the upper right corner, this card should never be made. For one reason, as worded this card is intrinsically overpowered. It could cost ; we still make plenty of cards that let you cheat on mana. Dream Halls, Sins of the Past, Fist of the Suns, etc. all have their fans. A card like this not only looks savage next to those gems, it curtails future design. Sure, you could have some hacky clause like "If you didn't pay to play this card, it's countered." The editing and development teams could probably make a card that wouldn't break Standard or the Eternal formats wide open (although a mistake would be very unfortunate). Phage does say "you win the game" on it, and Legacy is as healthy as it ever was. Power-level arguments are just an aspect of this card's real issue, a concern Phage neatly avoids.
"gg" is about the least interactive card in the history of the game. Combos are ok in small amounts, but a one-piece combo is anathema to everything Magic tries to do. Imagine this exchange:
Friend A: "I got out my second Mana Echoes at just four life. He had a Trained Armodon, and you know I was scared of Giant Growth or Berserk..."
Friend B: "Or even Feral Instinct!"
Friend A: "Right, but he didn't have any of that. I got to start my turn at 1 life. I had all these lands in play from his New Frontiers, so I tapped 12 Mountains and played Firecat Blitz for 10. That was worth a lot of mana, so I tapped two more Mountains and played another Firecat Blitz for 200."
Friend B: "You attacked for 200!? That's pretty awesome!"
Friend A: "I couldn't, he had Barbed Foliage out! Instead I tapped my last Mountain and sacrificed everything to flashback one of the Blitzes."
Friend B: "How much mana did you have then???"
Friend A: "Good question! At the end I had 225 cat tokens, 9,922,500 colorless mana, and a single red. So I hit him with a Blaze for nine million."
Friend B: "Nine million?"
Friend A: "It was a little excessive since he was at 63, but why not, right?"
Friend B: "So... awesome..." Indeed it is, Friend B. R&D loves cards that can create a story, which "healthy" combo cards do. How many games is it worth playing to get a story like the above? The more implausible the situation, the more thrilling when you pull it off. Contrast with the "gg" card above.
Friend A: "I was on the ropes, but I got enough mana to cast gg. So I did."
Friend B: "::yawn:: Well played."
It's not engaging, it's not exciting, and it's certainly not clever. Back to the original card, "draw 100 cards" is about half a step away from "win the game". You're not playing this to refuel, you're playing it solely to draw every combo piece with quad Force of Will backup. While we appreciate the thought experiment, these kinds of cards do not promote good game play. As worded, no mana cost would be appropriate. Thanks for the excellent question, Dan!
It seems they've done a bit of a 180 turn on this.
I think "Draw 100 cards" is way different from "Draw cards equal to the number of cards in your library". Imagine if you're playing a 300 card deck and you cast the "Draw 100 cards" card. Now you have to sit and count out 100 cards. Casting Enter the Infinite is so much quicker. I could be wrong, but I would think that in most circumstances you can just shortcut it by simply picking up your entire deck and adding it to your hand?
I only see problems arising in the rare situations where you have more life than cards in your library and an opponent has something like Underworld Dreams or Cerebral Vortex that would require you to actually count exactly how many cards you draw, or if you have a Lorescale Coatl/Jace's Erasure out or something.
Also, despite what everyone claims, drawing every card in your deck doesn't guarantee that you win the game. You still need other cards to pull it off. Enter the Infinite gives you 1-2 turns to win before you lose from deck out. What if your opponent's board presence is just too good for you to deal with? What if they have too much life? What if you don't have the mana to pull off a win? You still need a good combo so EtI is just like any other bomby card that gets insane with other cards. I mean, in my Animar EDH, Primal Surge is like an Enter the Infinite that plays every card in my deck about 90% of the time.
I think "Draw 100 cards" is way different from "Draw cards equal to the number of cards in your library".
From the Q&A:
"draw 100 cards" is about half a step away from "win the game". You're not playing this to refuel, you're playing it solely to draw every combo piece with quad Force of Will backup. While we appreciate the thought experiment, these kinds of cards do not promote good game play. As worded, no mana cost would be appropriate.
By this reasoning, EtI is actually less printable than "draw 100".
Things change both in Magic and in R&D, things that were unthinkable before are business as usual now. Counterspells are not as strong as they were before, and older formats have better surefire combos to play. I'd also say that "Draw 100 cards" is much less risky than "Draw your library", since you most probably won't deck yourself or get killed by Inspiration if you cast the former.
Um, most of us play normal Constructed MTG (or even Limited). "Draw 100 cards" would kill us. Heck, it probably kills the EDH player, too (hand size wasn't 0).
Um, most of us play normal Constructed MTG (or even Limited). "Draw 100 cards" would kill us. Heck, it probably kills the EDH player, too (hand size wasn't 0).
If you put the card in your deck, it won't kill you, since you simply must build the deck accordingly.
It's part of the recent pandering towards newer/Timmy-er players. They want to see huge 8+ mana effects even in colors that don't want or need them, so we get things like Omniscience and this crap.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
It's part of the recent pandering towards newer/Timmy-er players. They want to see huge 8+ mana effects even in colors that don't want or need them, so we get things like Omniscience and this crap.
It's like Magic hasn't been filled with huge swingy effects since the dawn of times.
It cost 12 ****ing mana... the only way this card is going to see play is Show and Tell > Omniscience > Burning Wish.
That may be an understatement, but if you want to be practical then everything in the OP is just absurd. There is a fine line as well as many different motions ones has to go through for something that says "Draw 100 cards" and "Draw cards equal to the number of cards in your library"
WotC has deal with a rapidly expanding user base and trying to stay ahead of the trends: things that were considered unfathomable yonder now are not.
It's a game a cards like these are a ton of fun even if, by certain standars, they could be considered uncompetitive if someone finds a way to break them.
You know what happens if this comes to pass and gets out of hand? They ban in it in formats that are overrun by cards like these.
Considering WotC has stated that they don't care about Legacy or Vintage, it doesn't surprise me that they would disregard any previous statements regarding a mass draw spell like this.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
M:tG. Where you can write "You win" and it's still not considered powerful.
Interestingly, Door to Nothingness has the clunkiness that they said would be required. Cheating activation costs is much more difficult than cheating mana costs.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Just a question but why not a blue white control deck sideboarding nevermore work? Counterlash plays ente r the infinite on turn 6-7 and laboratory maniac with thought scour and a couple dispels is all you need to win!. I am playtesting this right now with proxys for ETI. And the only style of deck that gives it total fits is a mirror. Even then it's just a waiting game. Counterlash is a very useful card for these purposes. Supreme verdict, sphinx's revelation, dramatic rescue, unsummon, think twice, all serve to get it done. Why has no one thought of this before. As soon as they spoiled ETI I was WOOT! FINALLY A REASON TO COUNTERLASH. In a total control shell it works. Oh and if the decks done run sorcery very much have 3index and counterlash yourself. Pay 7 play ETI. wait draw the land you placed play it you now have 8 mana. Lab maniac for 3 thought scour for 1 and 4 left for negates and dispels. GG
I think the idea was, "We would never print that at a mana cost where it would be even somewhat competitive". Seeing as 12 mana is sort of expensive, I think it is quite plausible that Enter the Infinite doesn't see any play.
There are lots of cards designed mostly for casual players that break the rule of thumb design rules. Mill is a good example, they are still printing mill even though mill isn't really good, interactive design, and the Eldrazi nailed the coffin shut on its competitive viability. They print it anyway because there are casual players buying packs and if they enjoy mill, fine.
I think the deal about a "gg card" is that if played, you've techically won.
Door to Nothingness does nothing like that.
It doesn't say :5mana:: Win the game.
Neither does it say :symg::symg::symr::symr::symb::symb::symu::symu::symw::symw:: Win the game
Enter the infinite does say :8mana::symu::symu::symu::symu:: Win the game, simply because you cannot loose if you resolve it.
You can get some FoW, couple of lotus petals and spirit guides, 2-3 Show and Tells, Omniscience and from here on it shouldn't be too hard finding some cards to win the game with
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
I think the deal about a "gg card" is that if played, you've techically won.
Door to Nothingness does nothing like that.
It doesn't say :5mana:: Win the game.
Neither does it say :symg::symg::symr::symr::symb::symb::symu::symu::symw::symw:: Win the game
Enter the infinite does say :8mana::symu::symu::symu::symu:: Win the game, simply because you cannot loose if you resolve it.
You can get some FoW, couple of lotus petals and spirit guides, 2-3 Show and Tells, Omniscience and from here on it shouldn't be too hard finding some cards to win the game with
You need some form of combo and you need it quick, as you must win right after it, which is in no way true for the most decks.
Sure, if you play it, its in your best intrest to play any form of combo that instantly wins, but doing that can be way way cheaper.
Also it an randomly kill you if your opponent manages to hit you with "draw 2" you are gone.
If it becomes a crazy card, even some red "traps" can insta kill you if you resolve it for some reason.
As it stands, a cute card, but in no way a major player.
Im hoping the same way they forgot their own desing rules, they "forget" about the reserve list.
EtI is making S&T even more bannable than before.
I don't know about you,
but after drawing my entire deck, I'd probably want to spend the extra G for Eureka,
so I can put most of my library into play, rather than the one best card
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I don't know about you,
but after drawing my entire deck, I'd probably want to spend the extra G for Eureka,
so I can put most of my library into play, rather than the one best card
He's talking about playing S&T to put Omniscience into play, then playing EtI for free, along with the rest of your deck.
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It seems they've done a bit of a 180 turn on this.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I only see problems arising in the rare situations where you have more life than cards in your library and an opponent has something like Underworld Dreams or Cerebral Vortex that would require you to actually count exactly how many cards you draw, or if you have a Lorescale Coatl/Jace's Erasure out or something.
Also, despite what everyone claims, drawing every card in your deck doesn't guarantee that you win the game. You still need other cards to pull it off. Enter the Infinite gives you 1-2 turns to win before you lose from deck out. What if your opponent's board presence is just too good for you to deal with? What if they have too much life? What if you don't have the mana to pull off a win? You still need a good combo so EtI is just like any other bomby card that gets insane with other cards. I mean, in my Animar EDH, Primal Surge is like an Enter the Infinite that plays every card in my deck about 90% of the time.
Trades
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(Signature courtesy of Argetlam of Hakai Studios
From the Q&A:
By this reasoning, EtI is actually less printable than "draw 100".
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Lazy Golbin R
Creature - Goblin
Lazy Goblin can't block.
2/1
Things change both in Magic and in R&D, things that were unthinkable before are business as usual now. Counterspells are not as strong as they were before, and older formats have better surefire combos to play. I'd also say that "Draw 100 cards" is much less risky than "Draw your library", since you most probably won't deck yourself or get killed by Inspiration if you cast the former.
If you put the card in your deck, it won't kill you, since you simply must build the deck accordingly.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Well I heard some people like playing Battle of Wits and even manage to win with it. Haven't tried it myself, but I guess it's doable.
It's like Magic hasn't been filled with huge swingy effects since the dawn of times.
That may be an understatement, but if you want to be practical then everything in the OP is just absurd. There is a fine line as well as many different motions ones has to go through for something that says "Draw 100 cards" and "Draw cards equal to the number of cards in your library"
Huh... you miss that part?
It's a game a cards like these are a ton of fun even if, by certain standars, they could be considered uncompetitive if someone finds a way to break them.
You know what happens if this comes to pass and gets out of hand? They ban in it in formats that are overrun by cards like these.
I am not sure what the problem is.
Legacy Burn
NO Combo Elves
Reanimator
Trades
Burn Primer
:symg:Free Gaea's Cradle:symg:
They broke it even earlier with Coalition Victory.
They definitely like to break their own rules...
I guess it moves more product.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Interestingly, Door to Nothingness has the clunkiness that they said would be required. Cheating activation costs is much more difficult than cheating mana costs.
No, you're thinking of Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
There are lots of cards designed mostly for casual players that break the rule of thumb design rules. Mill is a good example, they are still printing mill even though mill isn't really good, interactive design, and the Eldrazi nailed the coffin shut on its competitive viability. They print it anyway because there are casual players buying packs and if they enjoy mill, fine.
Door to Nothingness does nothing like that.
It doesn't say :5mana:: Win the game.
Neither does it say :symg::symg::symr::symr::symb::symb::symu::symu::symw::symw:: Win the game
Enter the infinite does say :8mana::symu::symu::symu::symu:: Win the game, simply because you cannot loose if you resolve it.
You can get some FoW, couple of lotus petals and spirit guides, 2-3 Show and Tells, Omniscience and from here on it shouldn't be too hard finding some cards to win the game with
Friend B: ":: Well played."
Lol. Reminded me of Primeval Titan... and Jace, the Mind Sculptor... and Bonfire of the Damned (but only in block constructed). I wonder how many more times they'll make this mistake.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
EtI is making S&T even more bannable than before.
GBW NO Elves / Aggro Elves
GBWU Combo Elves
EDH Decks:
Duel Commander:
GG Thrun, the last Trolololol GG
GW The Captain WG
GWB Karadores BWG
GWU Jenara UWG
UWB Oloro-DD BWU
Regular EDH:
GBW Ghave the Enchanter WBG
You need some form of combo and you need it quick, as you must win right after it, which is in no way true for the most decks.
Sure, if you play it, its in your best intrest to play any form of combo that instantly wins, but doing that can be way way cheaper.
Also it an randomly kill you if your opponent manages to hit you with "draw 2" you are gone.
If it becomes a crazy card, even some red "traps" can insta kill you if you resolve it for some reason.
As it stands, a cute card, but in no way a major player.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
I don't know about you,
but after drawing my entire deck, I'd probably want to spend the extra G for Eureka,
so I can put most of my library into play, rather than the one best card
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
He's talking about playing S&T to put Omniscience into play, then playing EtI for free, along with the rest of your deck.