Here is my version on BG with a zombie/aggro twist I've been working on, it follows Golgari principles quite closely, obviously subject to change. For those of you that read this, I apologize for the wall of text, but I tend to explain my reasons fully. It also opens up alot of discussion points
As I said this is all subject to change, I think a card that’s being very undervalued is Dreg Mangler. This card is extremely powerful especially following a turn 1 Arbor Elf. Regardless of his high Scavenge cost, a 3/3 with haste on turn 2 is nothing to joke about, and that's only 1 option in the deck that can put some great pressure on most decks (excluding Loxodon Smiter).
The primary focus I was trying to build around is the ability to sack creatures with Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord like Slitherhead and Gravecrawler, potentially a game winning Loleth Troll by sacrificing creatures from your hand pre-Jarad's ability.
Another mention about this deck is Jarad's Orders, it is unfortunately a card that requires some specific things in the deck to have full potential. Such as, scavenge abilities and Gravecrawler. Even a double Slitherhead can be a game ending blow when paired with an on the board Loleth Troll, thats 4 mana to give your already pumped creature a permanent +3/+3 while this may not be as good as trditional pump cards are, Jarad's Orders can also serve as a tutor to speed up your combo. In magical Christmasland we are talking about a turn 3 5/4 trample creature that you HAVE the mana to regen, not to mention however many other sacs you gave Loleth Troll.
Farseek is an interesting play and I'm still not sold on it, being an old school elves player I always tend to put too much ramp into my decks. For mana fixing though, you couldn't ask for a better card. While Chromatic Lantern could serve this purpose and more, it is an artifact. With all the hate such as Abrupt Decay, Rakados Charm, and Ancient Grudge, I feel that using Farseek is a better option. I have also been testing Lair Delve as a pseudo Sign in Blood for CA issues, With so few spells in general in this deck its an almost guarantee I'm drawing 2 cards. Sure, it costs 1 more to play, but it is also only G as opposed to BB.
Which brings me to board wipes, this deck gets around the common problem with Aggro when my opponent decides to miracle a bonfire for X amount in the fact that I don’t really care if my creatures die. Loleth Troll can regen OR I have the option to sac creatures out of my hand to save him, Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord can be brought back (if he even dies since he can get pretty big with the creatures in gy). The only real loss I’m taking on a damage related board wipe is Blood Artist, which is a secondary theme for this particular build.
The sideboard for this deck is albeit rough. It leans into creating a more controlling aspect twist on the deck. Abrupt Decay is amazing, and may deserve a place in the main deck but I feel its uses are more sideboard-ish, unless Delver of Secrets rises from the grave or some other ridiculous thing of course. Tragic Slip is a given, with so many creatures dying on my side, and their side (hopefully) it allows me to take out the big threats early, and late game.
This leads up to Killing Wave. In this style of play this card shines beyond its drawbacks. Consider this, I Killing Wave for 4 (very reasonable number) Pay 4 life to keep Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord in play, every other creature I sent to the GY with this card makes him bigger, and against high creature count decks (someone WILL be doing something ridiculous with tokens, remember Entreat the Angels is still a thing.) they can’t afford to keep as many in play in the interest of not just killing themselves. All of a sudden I have a (insert <stupid> P/T) creature and they have 2 MAYBE 3 blockers out.
Vraska the Unseen, I’m not sold on this card but her -3 ability cannot be denied, its good. Her ultimate on the surface is an OMFG I WIN NOW, but upon further inspection those measly 1/1’s will never get through against a player that is worth a damn, especially since we are looking at a Turn 6 threat at BEST. Possibly combined with other removal/controlling cards it can work, but I see her as spot removal and a late game counter to a board stall, hence the sideboard position.
Another card I really wanted to fit in here was Desecration Demon. Before you all jump in my **** about how terrible this card is, the way my deck runs makes it slightly better and even playable using the vastly overlooked upside, to the very negative downside. I’ll put it into a very achievable scenario. Turn 3, I drop Desecration Demon, he sacs to tap it on his turn in order to remove the potential block, I now have a 7/7 Desecration Demon. Turn 4, I play Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, if he doesn’t sac to stop my 7/7, well he takes 7. If he does, I have an 8/8 Desecration Demon. From here Desecration Demon becomes a real threat, instead of something much less. If he chooses to let it beat him down, sweet I have a 7/7, 8/8 flyer. If he chooses to tap it until he can deal with it, he runs the risk of it getting sacrificed by Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, for A LOT of damage. Now the “choice” he has to make (lesser of the 2 evils if you will) is suddenly an almost impossible one. Imagine swinging on turn 5 for 7 damage with the Desecration Demon, THEN sacrificing him to deal 7 more damage. What are the chances that I haven’t already dealt at least 6 damage to my opponent by turn 5? Very small with consideration to how this deck plays.
Cards left out, Mutilate, it’s good, but not great in this deck. I can hit it for decent numbers running 11 “Swamps” but in this build it pales in comparison to Killing Wave. Liliana of the Veil, still unsure about her, she’s worth looking at and worth play testing in this build, her +1 ability will actually conflict with the theory that I want to sac creatures to Loleth Troll, not discard them with Liliana of the Veil. On the other hand her -2 is like a cheap Vraska the Unseen, except the opponent gets to choose and its limited to creatures. Potentially she serves a purpose in the sideboard instead of Vraska the Unseen, but I’m a little hesitant about that. Only time and other data will tell whether or not she should be run in here. Garruk Relentless, a hard card to pass up seeing as the theme is to have stuff in gy and keep bouncing it back, while having a fair amount of creatures. In the end I decided against this card due to the curve, With Jarad’s Orders, Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, and Desecration Demon in the sideboard I felt like there were too many options at 4 to safely play him. Obviously he is still an option but I feel like it would be stepping away from the Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord Theme and moving to a Zombie Beatdown Theme. This is not the purpose of the deck. Thragtusk, he’s amazing, I can sac him safely and still have a 3/3 and deal 5 to my opponents face. The end result is, he’s expensive, at 5 CMC he’s a midrange threat at best, he has been coming in and out of my deck for a while now and if I were to play him, he would take a sideboard spot against Izzet and other hybrid control decks. Just my feel for the play of course, always a chance I’m terrible at this game. I’m sure there are tons of cards out there that I missed or overlooked, please feel free to inform me on awesome stuff.
This is obviously a dream scenario and is by no means foolproof, but it is a very good example of how the Golgari cards in this set can work together very well. I am also obviously awaiting the rest of the spoilers, things im looking forward to include: Golgari Charm (please be incredible), Potential Signets (can eliminate Farseek possibly), Another B/G hybrid card (not sure if probable), and anything else that suits my fancy.
Lastly, Jund play should be mentioned. Splashing red in this deck can definitely make it a much more aggressive deck with potentially a few more answers for certain things (the ability to cast my OWN Bonfire of the Damned comes to mind), but I feel it would take away from the purpose of this deck, which is semi-built around Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord. If I played Jund I feel that it would evolve into a Jund beatdown deck and lose some of its purpose which is a mixture of resilient creatures and the ability to play off of each other. That being said its obviously not impossible to make a deck built around Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord in the Jund format, things like Dreadbore and Slaughter Games come to mind as well as a few nifty targets for Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord like Thundermaw Hellkite or Olivia Voldaren. Yet I feel that it would also weaken the deck overall to play 3 colors primarily because Stomping Ground is yet to be reprinted. We shall see what the future spoilers bring us.
I’m MORE than open to constructive criticism and I will never pretend to be the best Magic player, I’m a casual FNM type player, but my head will always be stuck in deck building and theorycrafting. Please, please, please comment and challenge me so not only can I make myself better, but potentially we can learn new awesome combos to salivate over. If this type of play suits your fancy stay tuned! I will be updating this list as new cards are released that I feel have a home here.
TL;DRComments about the deck are welcome even if you're not a reader
Also a great mechanic I didn't mention, great catch! It makes those 2 in particular almost immune to Red hate (Dreadbore excluded) and with so many creatures being run in the deck you will almost always have something to sac and save them.
edit - Other cards to consider for building off of that mechanic is Grisly Savage and Lair Delve. It would allow you to go through the deck and get the creatures you need to sac, while also putting some into your GY.
Yep all viable additions if I took it a Jund route. The jury is still out for me on Sign in Blood or Lair Delve, In the current build I think Lair Delve is better because of so few spells. Rancor is one that I've thought of, and will most likely try and find a place for it, it can also buff the damage off of Jarad's ability.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Veni, Vidi, Vici" - Gaius Julius Caesar
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
Blood Artist is horrible in this build in my opinion. Your only sac outlet is Jarad, who will bring your game to a grinding halt with his activation cost if you attempt to go the Blood Artist route. Now, the synergy between Jarad, Gravecrawler, Loltroll, scavenge and so forth, that's something I can get behind, especially if you're packing rancor. Also, Grisly Salvage dearly needs to be in this kind of build.
I see your point about Blood Artist and tend to agree, I've been play testing this deck with slight changes in my spare time and seem to feel that Blood Artist, while good, is more fluffy than game changing. Rancor is an addition that as I play through I'm liking more and more, the biggest downside to Jarad is that no matter how big he gets, he can be chumped. Rancor eliminates that and makes him kind of a counter-Loleth Troll if you will. Sac creatures to Troll to pump him, creatures stay in GY to pump Jarad.
Exciting thing about this current setup is I did squeeze out a turn 4 win against a fairly decent Selesnya token deck I've been working on, so it can be fast.
I see you mentioned Corpsejack Menace in your list, this card is very good with Scavenge and other counter producing abilities, but I also noticed you dont HAVE and scavenge cards in that list, aside from the optional Deadbridge Goliath. I feel like one of the best scavenge cards in the set so far is Slitherhead purely because its cheap, expendable, a perfect chump, and actually GAINS value in the GY as oppose to other scavenge cards that have a relevant cost associated with them.
Also, I'd like some more opinions on Grisly Salvage, I almost feel like it RELIES on me dumping scavenge cards into the GY. Which on T2-T4 dont do me much good since the costs seem to all be beyond those turns. In addition to the fact that I have things I could actually be playing the turns for scavenge as well.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Veni, Vidi, Vici" - Gaius Julius Caesar
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
Could Garruk, Primal Hunter fit in a shell that carries more removal (Tragic Slips and Abrupt Decays +
)? It seems like you could draw a lot of cards with him thanks to Lotleth Troll and Jarad. Possibly enough to then push for the final blow with the removal you'd draw.
As a former Golgari player, a PURE Golgari deck like the one you are implying would only consist of cards with ONLY the guild symbol. I used to have one with the original Ravnica set, yes a true 100% guild deck if it didn't have the symbol it wasn't in the deck.
Splinterfright is good as well, the only problem i see is he kind of comes to be a more late game option, since he purely relies on creatures in the GY. granted he is a cheap trampler. Garruk, Primal Hunter is also a good card no doubt, the worry to me is the GGG cost. This deck is primarily black and having Geralf's Messenger in as well, testing would prove whether ir not they would be playable in the same deck. Geralf's Messenger is where im leaning though, the fact that its 5 easy damage when sacrificing it to Jarad is pretty good.
Underworld Connections has been a debate of mine, it does allow the card draw. Possibly running it with a Vampire Nighthawk making the life loss negligible. I think I'll bump an updated list in a little bit and see what we can make of that.
Lastly, pure Golgari style may have been misleading but remember, Scavenge is a Golgari only trait. So even if those cards dont have the symbol, they technically are still Golgari. As far as the other aspects go the play well fluff wise in Golgari (Undying comes to mind).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Veni, Vidi, Vici" - Gaius Julius Caesar
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
Golgari Keyrune, the signet for the clan is. Good? 2/2 with Deathtouch on instant speed is incredible for sure, can double as a removal spell essentially. For mana fixing purposes it is good, not as good as Chromatic Lantern is, but with the creature ability as well, could be an up side. I think I'm going to try and find a home for it in my 75.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Veni, Vidi, Vici" - Gaius Julius Caesar
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
yep it absolutely is, for the Jarad/Lotleth Troll combo. I was more comparing the Sign in Blood vs Lair Delve. Still working on a Updated list, its looking hopeful.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Veni, Vidi, Vici" - Gaius Julius Caesar
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
Run Mulch and Grisly Salvage. The new Golgari Charm is AWESOME! And, I'm considering dipping into white to go into an alternate reanimation style of play if required
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
the sharpest steel is tempered in fire!!! though the plane of mirrodin is lost, the fire of mirrans still burn!!!!!
Junk reanimator seems fun. With Loltroll and the rat in now, unlike with frites, if they hate out your GY you can always fall on a legitimate back up plan and beat their faces with an army of rodents or a big troll
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
well, i for one definitely want jarad to work. I´m 100% golgari therefore i´ll try almost anything to make it work.
Upon first inspection, the card is an aggro card. It might kind of work as a recurring threat in a midrange deck, but it´s not that likely. With the 274 cards finally spoiled, the cards that work best with him are deathrite shaman, lotleth troll and maybe grisly salvage. Other cards, not out of RTR are liliiana of the veilgravecrawler etc.
I for one was hoping there would be some way of returning the sacrificed lands to your hand once you had gotten jarad back, i wasn´t asking for anotherlife from the loam, but at least something (shaman i guess is enough :()
Now, if i were to play golgari at the moment, i´d probably play an aggro deck (sigh). I hate aggro decks and i sold my gravecrawlers... i´d have to buy everything over and that gets me even more pissed -_-
it´d look something liiiiiike:
there could also be room for corpsejack menace and alot more "scavengey-esque" cards like the 5/5 for 4 or even the scorpion. geralf´s messengers should probably have been considered too. Don´t really like the 1/1 for 1 scavenge 0 that much, it seems like a waste of space, although it might be cool to put a 1/1 counter on Treacherous Pit-Dweller, and sac him with jarad, or even if you happen to have 6 mana untapped, sac him once, trigger on the stack, sac him again to deal 7 not bad.
Another take is the "mill" subtheme adding splinterfright and grisly salvage as possible 4 of´s and maybe a ghoultree or 2 to deal with your opponent. Planeswalkers become a bit less relevant here i guess
Finally, a third take (a fourth would probably be a jund variant) would be a more "controlish" type deck, a more grindy G/B comboish something like:
Other than the fact that the deck looks like garbage, that it needs more removal, that the one of´s look stupid, that "what´s farseek for if you don´t have three drops",that the shamans are bad/wierd in this deck and every other problem this deck seems to have, it´s just a rough idea of some of the interactions there might be, like how korozda guildmage and tree of redemption get ALOT of tokens into play, how jarad and the guildmage are SOMEWHAT of an engine or that when you´re discarding something to a liliana, you can use it with the shaman (the shaman should probably not be here, but i´ll be sticking him in everywhere i can because of his awesomeness) and discarding jarad isn´t too shabby either. Farseek is not doing anything but getting some more lands so that you can get a turn 3 garruk or bigger bombs faster. Vorapede is obviously the biggest dude around unfortunately falling in a bad spot against what might probably be the "big dude removal" of the season, that´s of course, selesnya charm, but if not the case, making your opponent lose 11 life with him and jarad in play, as well as attacking with both doesn´t seem too bad.
This idea lacks removal, it´s true, but it can easily be added. Creeping Reneissance is just something to get your dudes back if you discard them to liliana, get them killed, sacrificed etc. Also brings back lands if you used grisly salvage or keep getting jarad killed (just pay 5 mana and then sac the lands to get jarad and the lands back)
goulraiser could potentially make jared´s orders a tutor for 2 creatures, although it might be abit too cute.
Another card that sort of comes right back into existence, is skirsdag high priest. It would need some work, and probably a totally different shell, but the amount of creature sacrificing might make it possible.
The only thing that is bothering me is that jarad works best in an aggro deck, a deck in which you can just go EOT pay 3, sac gravecrawler you lose 2 my turn +1 liliana, discard veilborn ghoul attack with 4/4 jarad, 2nd main play swamp, return ghoul and cast crawler pay 6 mana sac both deal 6. Something like that. I´d much rather play a controlish style deck than an aggro. I´ll try to make him work regardless.
I like Bloodflow Connoisseur as a sac engine. You can sac as many critters as you like and they pump her up at the same time. Very good when you have a few Gravecrawlers and Blood Artists out. Attack with the gravecrawlers then sac em then recast them. Your Bloodflow is pumped and your Blood Artist is doing his thing. Pretty standard tech, I know, but effective. To sac creatures with Jarad you have to use a bunch of mana. And you want to sac them before combat so you can use the pump on Jarad.
And everytime I see "Jarad" I get the image of the fat guy from Subway. So I'm going to call him "Jared, Good Golly Lettuce Lord" from now on.
So after A LOT of play testing vs many many different theory decks, this seems to come out on top. Instead of my former strategy of sacrificing creatures with Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and getting the benefit of Blood Artist I chose to go with a faster more aggro-y style of play. Also in the previous list I ran A LOT of creatures and very few spells. This current build is quite balanced in terms of removal and card advantage spells working together with my creatures. The largest weakness of this deck is GY hate, as it should be, but the method which I applied to the Sideboard will make those game 2 and 3 much less painful if our opp decides to sweep our GY.
The main focus combo of this deck lies with Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and Lotleth Troll. After using the suggestions in this thread, I saw that this combo is much cleaner than relying on Creatures for Jarad to sack. Also a great advantage to this combo is, you can start ramping it up BEFORE having both parts on the field. So saving your troll with a couple of sac's from your hand means you wont lose that synergy for Jarad.
Another addition to the deck is Deathrite Shaman. This card was yet to be released at the time of my first list, and I think its obvious that it makes the deck SO much better. I see it in this deck as a upgraded Blood Artist, with mana capabilities. Also the fact that I can target opp GY is worth alot, especially the fact that this card is very maindeck-able in this list. Flashback? No thanks I'll pay B to shut you down. Mirror Match? No thanks, I'll pay G to kill Zombies all day long.
The rest of the creature package is very much the same as the former build, with the exception of Geralf's Messenger being excluded. The decision to exclude him in this list was 2 part. Part 1:Casting cost. While BBB isnt that hard to achieve in this list, the largest advantage to having him in the former list was the synergy with Blood Artist after Jarad sac's him. Now, its still a reasonable play and if I find out that I'm losing because of lack of reach in the late game, then he may come in for Slitherhead. The reason Slitherhead is in the deck is for efficiency. If he gets thrown into the GY by Grisly Salvage? Great I can throw a free counter onto Lotleth Troll or Jarad (mainly because it permanent on Jarad this way. If he is exiled by another effect then Jarad doesn't lose -1/-1). If I drop a Geralf's Messenger into the GY? Well hes gone for good, and Jarad gets no added benefit.
Spell package. Grisly Salvage is self evident. Dump cards into GY and get something I need. Sign in Blood, more card advantage for me, wanted to run Lair Delve but running more spells than before dropping a spell onto the bottom of my Library hurts. Golgari Charm, running this over a few different removal spells for a couple of reasons. 1: Almost every proposed deck running R has maindeck Bonfire of the Damned. I cannot WAIT for the tears they will shed when the miracle a bonfire for 5 and I Golgari Charm it, guess what? you just lost a turn. 2: All of my threats are safe from -1/-1. Meaning I can get the upper hand in a fight, or break board stalls with it, or sweep tokens. Good enough for main deck imo. Mutilate, self explanatory, why would I not use the best sweeping card we have. Great part is, most of the time Lotleth Troll and Jarad are safe from it.
Sideboard. Abrupt Decay, before I get 1000 people telling me this is main deckable, its not. There are a few targets for this card that are primo, sure, but almost every single one of those targets is a sideboard card for other decks. The only few that I can think of that may see main deck play, are easily countered by other removal (Golgari Charm/Mutilate). The only exception that comes to mind is Loxodon Smiter, but he's a beast. The only thing that can really be main decked and not countered by my current package are low CC artifacts, basically as it stands, mana rampers. So they fit really well in the side board. Tragic Slip, targeted removal for fatties, pretty simple concept here.
Now like I said the biggest threat to this deck is the GY hate. Here is a couple cards that fix that problem. Duress, somewhat self explanatory, I can get it early, and before it becomes a problem. Also doubles as a good card vs control. Garruk Relentless, this card is my secondary win condition against GY hate, swarm them with wolves while being able to tutor for the creatures I need to win. Desecration Demon, I stated this argument before in my original post, it still stands. Good card vs control of after a board sweep that can close it down. Only other thing I can say about him is this, "At the beginning of each combat..." not "When this creature attacks or blocks" This is very very important. Yes, it may be shady, but this means they cant "In response to...". Meaning before Attacks are even DECLARED, your opp has to choose to tap him or not.
All in all a much cleaner list than last time, but I'm sure improvements can still be made. Feel free to comment or question anything and I'll try my best to explain my reasoning (understand sometimes my mind works in mysterious ways though).
TL;DR - Comment if you want to, but your question may have already been answered in the text. My advice? Take a min and read it ;).
With how many zombies you're running, have you considered cavern of souls? That would make geralf easier to cast if needed. You're also lacking a whole lot of rancor in an aggro deck.
I like your list a lot (although I still think Geralf's Messenger is worthy of an inclusion). My one question is if you think that you need 24 Lands with 4x Grisly Salvage and 4x Deathrite Shaman. With the curve of this deck as low as it is, I feel like 23 would be a better number, but if your testing has proven otherwise...
I like your list a lot (although I still think Geralf's Messenger is worthy of an inclusion). My one question is if you think that you need 24 Lands with 4x Grisly Salvage and 4x Deathrite Shaman. With the curve of this deck as low as it is, I feel like 23 would be a better number, but if your testing has proven otherwise...
Geralf's Messenger certainly fits the curve well, like I said I'm still unsure about him vs Slitherhead. I just like the fact of cards in my GY not being wasted. I decided on 24 lands because of the fact that some will be getting dumped into the GY (in my play testing I cant even say how many times 3+ lands were dumped with Grisly Salvage even at 22/23 lands). Potentially running 1 less wouldn't affect it as much as I think it will. Also remember that Deathrite Shaman can ONLY produce mana if some fall into the GY, making the probability of more than 1 (with Grisly Salvage) dropping in there very likely with 24 in the deck. In turn making your acceleration that much better. Ideally I'm looking at 6-8 available mana late game. This allows me to sac with Jarad at instant speed and maintain Card drops. Also remember, while I have Grisly Salvage and Sign in Blood, neither of those cards actually accelerates my mana, just makes sure I have it on time.
The comment about Cavern of Souls is a good one, to be honest I don't own any and is probably why I overlooked it. Consider at least a 2-of added for perfection purposes. Rancor has a place, its primarily excluded because Lotleth Troll has trample already, and is the more durable of the 2 between him and Jarad. Using it on Jarad would certainly be a good play and its possible to squeeze some in the list for some other spells, but this list is using removal to get Jarad through most of the time. Possibly putting it in the place of Golgari Charm and removing Duress from the board to keep Golgari Charm an option? I think I'll test this for a bit, see how it does.
Ok, so seeing as how im at work with nothing better to do atm than think of ways to improve this deck... I've been debating the Geralf's Messenger vs Slitherhead in my head. I think I'm going with Geralf's Messenger. It's midgame implications are far greater than Slitherhead, who is more of a fluff/early game card, which I dont need more of with Gravecrawler, Deathrite Shaman, and Lotleth Troll being very very strong early game.
Also with the addition of Rancor (suggested by Mcpatches) I find myself a little strapped for removal. Sure creatures can get me there, but against Selesnya, or even Rakdos decks, I feel like 3 Mutilate is not going to cut it game 1. Jund is another concern that I see, their fatty creatures at the top of their curve are generally much larger than mine. So I've been debating the best way to fit some targeted removal into the deck and I believe I've found a happy medium.
Ive gone back to Duress in the side board since Tragic Slip made its way into the main deck. Im still not sure on the Tragic Slip vs Golgari Charm, but its possible the ability to tear up a fatty is greater than the chance to survive a sweep or destroy an enchantment. Also back down to 23 Lands, I dont believe it will hurt me too much. As soon as I'm home I'll be putting this to the test, really enjoying the final touches and comments from people. I miss alot of stuff trying to theorycraft on my own.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Veni, Vidi, Vici" - Gaius Julius Caesar
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
So I actually kind of don't want to post this because when the rotation happens, I, like always, will end up playing control because it's what I love to do. That said, I have been testing constantly on MWS since the spoilers started and one of the decks I tested with a bunch was both BG zombies and Jund Zombies (mainly because the best cards spoiled first were Golgari). And I have one insight for you from all my testing.
Abandon slitherhead. Put him in a shoebox to be bulked off with other commons and uncommons 5 years from now. He is really really bad but people just haven't figured that out yet. The problem with slitherhead is this: a 1/1 for 1 is not even worth half a card. Putting a +1/+1 counter on a creature EVEN FOR FREE is NOT worth half a card. Together they don't even come close to adding up to being worth a full card. Having played against many zombie lists since switching to control, I can tell you this. Zombies is an incredibly strong deck and every time I end up facing somebody playing Slitherhead I breathe a huge sigh of relief because I know they have pre-mulliganed to 6 and my job to stabilize will be that much quicker and easier.
Yes, I understand there is synergy with the LOLteth troll. But not really. Sure, you pump him by 1 when you discard slitherhead. But unlike when you discard gravecrawler, this is pure card disadvantage because the benefit of ditching an additional +1/+1 counter - like I said earlier - is nowhere close to worth an entire card.
Like I said, I kind of wanted to keep this to myself so that people keep playing Slitherhead and it makes the zombie deck easier to beat. But I also felt like being helpful today. Thankfully for me, there will be people who just don't get the concept I presented and will tell me I am stupid or wrong and I will luckily still get my free wins off those people. But Manki, since you seem like a truly respectable player, hopefully you will get more wins because of this post.
So I actually kind of don't want to post this because when the rotation happens, I, like always, will end up playing control because it's what I love to do. That said, I have been testing constantly on MWS since the spoilers started and one of the decks I tested with a bunch was both BG zombies and Jund Zombies (mainly because the best cards spoiled first were Golgari). And I have one insight for you from all my testing.
Abandon slitherhead. Put him in a shoebox to be bulked off with other commons and uncommons 5 years from now. He is really really bad but people just haven't figured that out yet. The problem with slitherhead is this: a 1/1 for 1 is not even worth half a card. Putting a +1/+1 counter on a creature EVEN FOR FREE is NOT worth half a card. Together they don't even come close to adding up to being worth a full card. Having played against many zombie lists since switching to control, I can tell you this. Zombies is an incredibly strong deck and every time I end up facing somebody playing Slitherhead I breathe a huge sigh of relief because I know they have pre-mulliganed to 6 and my job to stabilize will be that much quicker and easier.
Yes, I understand there is synergy with the LOLteth troll. But not really. Sure, you pump him by 1 when you discard slitherhead. But unlike when you discard gravecrawler, this is pure card disadvantage because the benefit of ditching an additional +1/+1 counter - like I said earlier - is nowhere close to worth an entire card.
Like I said, I kind of wanted to keep this to myself so that people keep playing Slitherhead and it makes the zombie deck easier to beat. But I also felt like being helpful today. Thankfully for me, there will be people who just don't get the concept I presented and will tell me I am stupid or wrong and I will luckily still get my free wins off those people. But Manki, since you seem like a truly respectable player, hopefully you will get more wins because of this post.
I tend to agree with you and it looks like Manki does as well, since his latest build pulled the Slitherheads for some Geralf's Messengers. When our slithery friend was first spoiled, I was super stoked on him, but with Deathrite Shaman around, I really don't know if there's use for another one-drop that has so little board impact. I'm gonna be testing both cards in that slot, but I have no doubt at this point, the Shaman will prove preferable.
So I actually kind of don't want to post this because when the rotation happens, I, like always, will end up playing control because it's what I love to do. That said, I have been testing constantly on MWS since the spoilers started and one of the decks I tested with a bunch was both BG zombies and Jund Zombies (mainly because the best cards spoiled first were Golgari). And I have one insight for you from all my testing.
Abandon slitherhead. Put him in a shoebox to be bulked off with other commons and uncommons 5 years from now. He is really really bad but people just haven't figured that out yet. The problem with slitherhead is this: a 1/1 for 1 is not even worth half a card. Putting a +1/+1 counter on a creature EVEN FOR FREE is NOT worth half a card. Together they don't even come close to adding up to being worth a full card. Having played against many zombie lists since switching to control, I can tell you this. Zombies is an incredibly strong deck and every time I end up facing somebody playing Slitherhead I breathe a huge sigh of relief because I know they have pre-mulliganed to 6 and my job to stabilize will be that much quicker and easier.
Yes, I understand there is synergy with the LOLteth troll. But not really. Sure, you pump him by 1 when you discard slitherhead. But unlike when you discard gravecrawler, this is pure card disadvantage because the benefit of ditching an additional +1/+1 counter - like I said earlier - is nowhere close to worth an entire card.
Like I said, I kind of wanted to keep this to myself so that people keep playing Slitherhead and it makes the zombie deck easier to beat. But I also felt like being helpful today. Thankfully for me, there will be people who just don't get the concept I presented and will tell me I am stupid or wrong and I will luckily still get my free wins off those people. But Manki, since you seem like a truly respectable player, hopefully you will get more wins because of this post.
Yep, I think that I was blinded by the awesome 0 that we see on so few cards. Working with Geralf's Messenger in the build is proving to be much smoother and harder hitting. There is nothing like swinging in and then sacrificing a Geralf's Messenger for the killing blow. Or even for that matter discarding a bunch of creatures to Lotleth Troll, turning him sideways, and then sac. This is approaching the "scary" deck status and I Love it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Veni, Vidi, Vici" - Gaius Julius Caesar
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
I'm "zombie player" since DKA, testing Mono black, UB, BR, BG, BG pod zombies... and you are missing one thing:
How are you gonna play geralf's messenger in turn 3 with... 6-7 forests?
A creature with triple black in his cost is able to play it in turn 5, or turn 4, not at turn 3.
The same with mutilate. You only have 11 swamps, so you cannot mutilate a lot of things.
If you need a cost 3, try splinterfright. It does ALL you need. Fills your GY, and is a trampler body.
I'll consider putting 1-2 copy of Garruk Relentless in the deck. He works good with the graveyard, and helps you to find your gravecrawler to drop with lothlet troll, or just another creature. Cutting 1 Jarad will be ok too, because you only need 1 of them in play, and you can recover from your GY when you drop with splinterfright or grisly savage.
Rancor seems to me a good inclusion. Now with the 8 green sources, is a good deal to give +2/+0 trample a gravecrawler.
And if your mana base is mixted (same swamps-forest), i would try strangleroot geist. Turn 1 deathrite shaman, turn 2 strangleroot, turn 3 dreg mangler is a good start for every match.
I agree with most of your assessments here, and I'm glad to have an experienced Zombie player comment on this. The biggest thing with Geralf's Messenger, is his synergy with Jarad is pretty amazing. With 3 in the deck his turn 3 probability drops as well, and on turn 3 I'm looking to drop a Dreg Mangler or better yet Jarad with a Deathrite Shaman.
Mutilate I still really like in the deck. I'm not looking to take out any fatties with it. My creatures can get big enough and i have enough combat tricks to take care of the larger creatures. So Mutilate for 4 or less is quite reasonable. Also with all the card draw The chances of getting 4 "Swamps" is very likely by at least turn 5.
I like Splinterfright alot, and may do some testing with him. I also like the idea of dropping 1 Jarad in the deck, but i think only if i decide to play Splinterfright. I want to be certain hes on the board LATEST turn 5.
Lastly, I feel like Strangleroot Geist can have the same argument as Geralf's Messenger. Obviously GG is easier than BBB but a turn earlier is also asking a demand of my mana pool.
Overall very good suggestions thank you. I will think about what you say.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Veni, Vidi, Vici" - Gaius Julius Caesar
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
One problem with this build is mass removal that can kill giest of saint taft, armada worms, and the green/white hexproof angel that I can't remember. IDEA. What about Deadly Allure from dark ascention. For one black, target creature gets death touch and a taipped piece of paper on its back that says "kick me". A pefect target is geralf's messenger. You can play it again for a single green! Its gets around hexproof, flying, fatties, unblockable, and prevent sacrifice affects the green/white angel has.
4 Blood Artist
4 Gravecrawler
3 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
4 Loleth Troll
4 Slitherhead
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Arbor Elf
4 Dreg Mangler
3 Jarad's Orders
3 Farseek
Lands 23
7 Swamp
6 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetary
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Tragic Slip
2 Vraska the Unseen
3 Killing Wave
3 Desecration Demon
As I said this is all subject to change, I think a card that’s being very undervalued is Dreg Mangler. This card is extremely powerful especially following a turn 1 Arbor Elf. Regardless of his high Scavenge cost, a 3/3 with haste on turn 2 is nothing to joke about, and that's only 1 option in the deck that can put some great pressure on most decks (excluding Loxodon Smiter).
The primary focus I was trying to build around is the ability to sack creatures with Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord like Slitherhead and Gravecrawler, potentially a game winning Loleth Troll by sacrificing creatures from your hand pre-Jarad's ability.
Another mention about this deck is Jarad's Orders, it is unfortunately a card that requires some specific things in the deck to have full potential. Such as, scavenge abilities and Gravecrawler. Even a double Slitherhead can be a game ending blow when paired with an on the board Loleth Troll, thats 4 mana to give your already pumped creature a permanent +3/+3 while this may not be as good as trditional pump cards are, Jarad's Orders can also serve as a tutor to speed up your combo. In magical Christmasland we are talking about a turn 3 5/4 trample creature that you HAVE the mana to regen, not to mention however many other sacs you gave Loleth Troll.
Farseek is an interesting play and I'm still not sold on it, being an old school elves player I always tend to put too much ramp into my decks. For mana fixing though, you couldn't ask for a better card. While Chromatic Lantern could serve this purpose and more, it is an artifact. With all the hate such as Abrupt Decay, Rakados Charm, and Ancient Grudge, I feel that using Farseek is a better option. I have also been testing Lair Delve as a pseudo Sign in Blood for CA issues, With so few spells in general in this deck its an almost guarantee I'm drawing 2 cards. Sure, it costs 1 more to play, but it is also only G as opposed to BB.
Which brings me to board wipes, this deck gets around the common problem with Aggro when my opponent decides to miracle a bonfire for X amount in the fact that I don’t really care if my creatures die. Loleth Troll can regen OR I have the option to sac creatures out of my hand to save him, Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord can be brought back (if he even dies since he can get pretty big with the creatures in gy). The only real loss I’m taking on a damage related board wipe is Blood Artist, which is a secondary theme for this particular build.
The sideboard for this deck is albeit rough. It leans into creating a more controlling aspect twist on the deck. Abrupt Decay is amazing, and may deserve a place in the main deck but I feel its uses are more sideboard-ish, unless Delver of Secrets rises from the grave or some other ridiculous thing of course. Tragic Slip is a given, with so many creatures dying on my side, and their side (hopefully) it allows me to take out the big threats early, and late game.
This leads up to Killing Wave. In this style of play this card shines beyond its drawbacks. Consider this, I Killing Wave for 4 (very reasonable number) Pay 4 life to keep Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord in play, every other creature I sent to the GY with this card makes him bigger, and against high creature count decks (someone WILL be doing something ridiculous with tokens, remember Entreat the Angels is still a thing.) they can’t afford to keep as many in play in the interest of not just killing themselves. All of a sudden I have a (insert <stupid> P/T) creature and they have 2 MAYBE 3 blockers out.
Vraska the Unseen, I’m not sold on this card but her -3 ability cannot be denied, its good. Her ultimate on the surface is an OMFG I WIN NOW, but upon further inspection those measly 1/1’s will never get through against a player that is worth a damn, especially since we are looking at a Turn 6 threat at BEST. Possibly combined with other removal/controlling cards it can work, but I see her as spot removal and a late game counter to a board stall, hence the sideboard position.
Another card I really wanted to fit in here was Desecration Demon. Before you all jump in my **** about how terrible this card is, the way my deck runs makes it slightly better and even playable using the vastly overlooked upside, to the very negative downside. I’ll put it into a very achievable scenario. Turn 3, I drop Desecration Demon, he sacs to tap it on his turn in order to remove the potential block, I now have a 7/7 Desecration Demon. Turn 4, I play Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, if he doesn’t sac to stop my 7/7, well he takes 7. If he does, I have an 8/8 Desecration Demon. From here Desecration Demon becomes a real threat, instead of something much less. If he chooses to let it beat him down, sweet I have a 7/7, 8/8 flyer. If he chooses to tap it until he can deal with it, he runs the risk of it getting sacrificed by Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, for A LOT of damage. Now the “choice” he has to make (lesser of the 2 evils if you will) is suddenly an almost impossible one. Imagine swinging on turn 5 for 7 damage with the Desecration Demon, THEN sacrificing him to deal 7 more damage. What are the chances that I haven’t already dealt at least 6 damage to my opponent by turn 5? Very small with consideration to how this deck plays.
Cards left out, Mutilate, it’s good, but not great in this deck. I can hit it for decent numbers running 11 “Swamps” but in this build it pales in comparison to Killing Wave. Liliana of the Veil, still unsure about her, she’s worth looking at and worth play testing in this build, her +1 ability will actually conflict with the theory that I want to sac creatures to Loleth Troll, not discard them with Liliana of the Veil. On the other hand her -2 is like a cheap Vraska the Unseen, except the opponent gets to choose and its limited to creatures. Potentially she serves a purpose in the sideboard instead of Vraska the Unseen, but I’m a little hesitant about that. Only time and other data will tell whether or not she should be run in here. Garruk Relentless, a hard card to pass up seeing as the theme is to have stuff in gy and keep bouncing it back, while having a fair amount of creatures. In the end I decided against this card due to the curve, With Jarad’s Orders, Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, and Desecration Demon in the sideboard I felt like there were too many options at 4 to safely play him. Obviously he is still an option but I feel like it would be stepping away from the Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord Theme and moving to a Zombie Beatdown Theme. This is not the purpose of the deck. Thragtusk, he’s amazing, I can sac him safely and still have a 3/3 and deal 5 to my opponents face. The end result is, he’s expensive, at 5 CMC he’s a midrange threat at best, he has been coming in and out of my deck for a while now and if I were to play him, he would take a sideboard spot against Izzet and other hybrid control decks. Just my feel for the play of course, always a chance I’m terrible at this game. I’m sure there are tons of cards out there that I missed or overlooked, please feel free to inform me on awesome stuff.
This is obviously a dream scenario and is by no means foolproof, but it is a very good example of how the Golgari cards in this set can work together very well. I am also obviously awaiting the rest of the spoilers, things im looking forward to include: Golgari Charm (please be incredible), Potential Signets (can eliminate Farseek possibly), Another B/G hybrid card (not sure if probable), and anything else that suits my fancy.
Lastly, Jund play should be mentioned. Splashing red in this deck can definitely make it a much more aggressive deck with potentially a few more answers for certain things (the ability to cast my OWN Bonfire of the Damned comes to mind), but I feel it would take away from the purpose of this deck, which is semi-built around Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord. If I played Jund I feel that it would evolve into a Jund beatdown deck and lose some of its purpose which is a mixture of resilient creatures and the ability to play off of each other. That being said its obviously not impossible to make a deck built around Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord in the Jund format, things like Dreadbore and Slaughter Games come to mind as well as a few nifty targets for Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord like Thundermaw Hellkite or Olivia Voldaren. Yet I feel that it would also weaken the deck overall to play 3 colors primarily because Stomping Ground is yet to be reprinted. We shall see what the future spoilers bring us.
I’m MORE than open to constructive criticism and I will never pretend to be the best Magic player, I’m a casual FNM type player, but my head will always be stuck in deck building and theorycrafting. Please, please, please comment and challenge me so not only can I make myself better, but potentially we can learn new awesome combos to salivate over. If this type of play suits your fancy stay tuned! I will be updating this list as new cards are released that I feel have a home here.
TL;DR Comments about the deck are welcome even if you're not a reader
Removed inappropriate language. -TK
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
Also a great mechanic I didn't mention, great catch! It makes those 2 in particular almost immune to Red hate (Dreadbore excluded) and with so many creatures being run in the deck you will almost always have something to sac and save them.
edit - Other cards to consider for building off of that mechanic is Grisly Savage and Lair Delve. It would allow you to go through the deck and get the creatures you need to sac, while also putting some into your GY.
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
Trades
Yep all viable additions if I took it a Jund route. The jury is still out for me on Sign in Blood or Lair Delve, In the current build I think Lair Delve is better because of so few spells. Rancor is one that I've thought of, and will most likely try and find a place for it, it can also buff the damage off of Jarad's ability.
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
I see your point about Blood Artist and tend to agree, I've been play testing this deck with slight changes in my spare time and seem to feel that Blood Artist, while good, is more fluffy than game changing. Rancor is an addition that as I play through I'm liking more and more, the biggest downside to Jarad is that no matter how big he gets, he can be chumped. Rancor eliminates that and makes him kind of a counter-Loleth Troll if you will. Sac creatures to Troll to pump him, creatures stay in GY to pump Jarad.
Exciting thing about this current setup is I did squeeze out a turn 4 win against a fairly decent Selesnya token deck I've been working on, so it can be fast.
I see you mentioned Corpsejack Menace in your list, this card is very good with Scavenge and other counter producing abilities, but I also noticed you dont HAVE and scavenge cards in that list, aside from the optional Deadbridge Goliath. I feel like one of the best scavenge cards in the set so far is Slitherhead purely because its cheap, expendable, a perfect chump, and actually GAINS value in the GY as oppose to other scavenge cards that have a relevant cost associated with them.
Also, I'd like some more opinions on Grisly Salvage, I almost feel like it RELIES on me dumping scavenge cards into the GY. Which on T2-T4 dont do me much good since the costs seem to all be beyond those turns. In addition to the fact that I have things I could actually be playing the turns for scavenge as well.
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
)? It seems like you could draw a lot of cards with him thanks to Lotleth Troll and Jarad. Possibly enough to then push for the final blow with the removal you'd draw.
Underworld Connections has been a debate of mine, it does allow the card draw. Possibly running it with a Vampire Nighthawk making the life loss negligible. I think I'll bump an updated list in a little bit and see what we can make of that.
Lastly, pure Golgari style may have been misleading but remember, Scavenge is a Golgari only trait. So even if those cards dont have the symbol, they technically are still Golgari. As far as the other aspects go the play well fluff wise in Golgari (Undying comes to mind).
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
Isn't Grisly Salvage just a way better Lair Delve?
Woah that's pretty awesome, I wonder if its too slow...
I'd love input and advice!
yep it absolutely is, for the Jarad/Lotleth Troll combo. I was more comparing the Sign in Blood vs Lair Delve. Still working on a Updated list, its looking hopeful.
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Upon first inspection, the card is an aggro card. It might kind of work as a recurring threat in a midrange deck, but it´s not that likely. With the 274 cards finally spoiled, the cards that work best with him are deathrite shaman, lotleth troll and maybe grisly salvage. Other cards, not out of RTR are liliiana of the veil gravecrawler etc.
I for one was hoping there would be some way of returning the sacrificed lands to your hand once you had gotten jarad back, i wasn´t asking for anotherlife from the loam, but at least something (shaman i guess is enough :()
Now, if i were to play golgari at the moment, i´d probably play an aggro deck (sigh). I hate aggro decks and i sold my gravecrawlers... i´d have to buy everything over and that gets me even more pissed -_-
it´d look something liiiiiike:
4 overgrown tomb
9 swamp
7 forest
4 gravecrawler
4 lotleth troll
4 strangleroot geist
3 dreg mangler
2 jarad, golgari lich lord
2 thragtusk
2 wolfir silverheart
3 tragic slip
2 other removal
4 sign in blood
2 liliana of the veil
2 garruk relentless
there could also be room for corpsejack menace and alot more "scavengey-esque" cards like the 5/5 for 4 or even the scorpion. geralf´s messengers should probably have been considered too. Don´t really like the 1/1 for 1 scavenge 0 that much, it seems like a waste of space, although it might be cool to put a 1/1 counter on Treacherous Pit-Dweller, and sac him with jarad, or even if you happen to have 6 mana untapped, sac him once, trigger on the stack, sac him again to deal 7 not bad.
Another take is the "mill" subtheme adding splinterfright and grisly salvage as possible 4 of´s and maybe a ghoultree or 2 to deal with your opponent. Planeswalkers become a bit less relevant here i guess
Finally, a third take (a fourth would probably be a jund variant) would be a more "controlish" type deck, a more grindy G/B comboish something like:
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Grim Backwoods
6 Swamp
9 Forest
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Korozda Guildmage
1 Tree of Redemption
2 Jarad, golgari lich lord
2 Thragtusk
2 Vorapede
4 Farseek
2 Jarad´s Orders
3 Barter in Blood
3 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Sign in Blood
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 garruk relentless
Other than the fact that the deck looks like garbage, that it needs more removal, that the one of´s look stupid, that "what´s farseek for if you don´t have three drops",that the shamans are bad/wierd in this deck and every other problem this deck seems to have, it´s just a rough idea of some of the interactions there might be, like how korozda guildmage and tree of redemption get ALOT of tokens into play, how jarad and the guildmage are SOMEWHAT of an engine or that when you´re discarding something to a liliana, you can use it with the shaman (the shaman should probably not be here, but i´ll be sticking him in everywhere i can because of his awesomeness) and discarding jarad isn´t too shabby either. Farseek is not doing anything but getting some more lands so that you can get a turn 3 garruk or bigger bombs faster. Vorapede is obviously the biggest dude around unfortunately falling in a bad spot against what might probably be the "big dude removal" of the season, that´s of course, selesnya charm, but if not the case, making your opponent lose 11 life with him and jarad in play, as well as attacking with both doesn´t seem too bad.
This idea lacks removal, it´s true, but it can easily be added. Creeping Reneissance is just something to get your dudes back if you discard them to liliana, get them killed, sacrificed etc. Also brings back lands if you used grisly salvage or keep getting jarad killed (just pay 5 mana and then sac the lands to get jarad and the lands back)
goulraiser could potentially make jared´s orders a tutor for 2 creatures, although it might be abit too cute.
Another card that sort of comes right back into existence, is skirsdag high priest. It would need some work, and probably a totally different shell, but the amount of creature sacrificing might make it possible.
The only thing that is bothering me is that jarad works best in an aggro deck, a deck in which you can just go EOT pay 3, sac gravecrawler you lose 2 my turn +1 liliana, discard veilborn ghoul attack with 4/4 jarad, 2nd main play swamp, return ghoul and cast crawler pay 6 mana sac both deal 6. Something like that. I´d much rather play a controlish style deck than an aggro. I´ll try to make him work regardless.
A huge thanks to Argetlam and the guys at Hakai studios for this awesome banner
And everytime I see "Jarad" I get the image of the fat guy from Subway. So I'm going to call him "Jared, Good Golly Lettuce Lord" from now on.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Slitherhead
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Dreg Mangler
3 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Spells 13
4 Grisly Salvage
3 Sign in Blood
3 Golgari Charm
3 Mutilate
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
7 Forest
9 Swamp
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Duress
3 Tragic Slip
3 Garruk Relentless
3 Desecration Demon
So after A LOT of play testing vs many many different theory decks, this seems to come out on top. Instead of my former strategy of sacrificing creatures with Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and getting the benefit of Blood Artist I chose to go with a faster more aggro-y style of play. Also in the previous list I ran A LOT of creatures and very few spells. This current build is quite balanced in terms of removal and card advantage spells working together with my creatures. The largest weakness of this deck is GY hate, as it should be, but the method which I applied to the Sideboard will make those game 2 and 3 much less painful if our opp decides to sweep our GY.
The main focus combo of this deck lies with Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and Lotleth Troll. After using the suggestions in this thread, I saw that this combo is much cleaner than relying on Creatures for Jarad to sack. Also a great advantage to this combo is, you can start ramping it up BEFORE having both parts on the field. So saving your troll with a couple of sac's from your hand means you wont lose that synergy for Jarad.
Another addition to the deck is Deathrite Shaman. This card was yet to be released at the time of my first list, and I think its obvious that it makes the deck SO much better. I see it in this deck as a upgraded Blood Artist, with mana capabilities. Also the fact that I can target opp GY is worth alot, especially the fact that this card is very maindeck-able in this list. Flashback? No thanks I'll pay B to shut you down. Mirror Match? No thanks, I'll pay G to kill Zombies all day long.
The rest of the creature package is very much the same as the former build, with the exception of Geralf's Messenger being excluded. The decision to exclude him in this list was 2 part. Part 1:Casting cost. While BBB isnt that hard to achieve in this list, the largest advantage to having him in the former list was the synergy with Blood Artist after Jarad sac's him. Now, its still a reasonable play and if I find out that I'm losing because of lack of reach in the late game, then he may come in for Slitherhead. The reason Slitherhead is in the deck is for efficiency. If he gets thrown into the GY by Grisly Salvage? Great I can throw a free counter onto Lotleth Troll or Jarad (mainly because it permanent on Jarad this way. If he is exiled by another effect then Jarad doesn't lose -1/-1). If I drop a Geralf's Messenger into the GY? Well hes gone for good, and Jarad gets no added benefit.
Spell package. Grisly Salvage is self evident. Dump cards into GY and get something I need. Sign in Blood, more card advantage for me, wanted to run Lair Delve but running more spells than before dropping a spell onto the bottom of my Library hurts. Golgari Charm, running this over a few different removal spells for a couple of reasons. 1: Almost every proposed deck running R has maindeck Bonfire of the Damned. I cannot WAIT for the tears they will shed when the miracle a bonfire for 5 and I Golgari Charm it, guess what? you just lost a turn. 2: All of my threats are safe from -1/-1. Meaning I can get the upper hand in a fight, or break board stalls with it, or sweep tokens. Good enough for main deck imo. Mutilate, self explanatory, why would I not use the best sweeping card we have. Great part is, most of the time Lotleth Troll and Jarad are safe from it.
Sideboard. Abrupt Decay, before I get 1000 people telling me this is main deckable, its not. There are a few targets for this card that are primo, sure, but almost every single one of those targets is a sideboard card for other decks. The only few that I can think of that may see main deck play, are easily countered by other removal (Golgari Charm/Mutilate). The only exception that comes to mind is Loxodon Smiter, but he's a beast. The only thing that can really be main decked and not countered by my current package are low CC artifacts, basically as it stands, mana rampers. So they fit really well in the side board. Tragic Slip, targeted removal for fatties, pretty simple concept here.
Now like I said the biggest threat to this deck is the GY hate. Here is a couple cards that fix that problem. Duress, somewhat self explanatory, I can get it early, and before it becomes a problem. Also doubles as a good card vs control. Garruk Relentless, this card is my secondary win condition against GY hate, swarm them with wolves while being able to tutor for the creatures I need to win. Desecration Demon, I stated this argument before in my original post, it still stands. Good card vs control of after a board sweep that can close it down. Only other thing I can say about him is this, "At the beginning of each combat..." not "When this creature attacks or blocks" This is very very important. Yes, it may be shady, but this means they cant "In response to...". Meaning before Attacks are even DECLARED, your opp has to choose to tap him or not.
All in all a much cleaner list than last time, but I'm sure improvements can still be made. Feel free to comment or question anything and I'll try my best to explain my reasoning (understand sometimes my mind works in mysterious ways though).
TL;DR - Comment if you want to, but your question may have already been answered in the text. My advice? Take a min and read it ;).
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
I like your list a lot (although I still think Geralf's Messenger is worthy of an inclusion). My one question is if you think that you need 24 Lands with 4x Grisly Salvage and 4x Deathrite Shaman. With the curve of this deck as low as it is, I feel like 23 would be a better number, but if your testing has proven otherwise...
Geralf's Messenger certainly fits the curve well, like I said I'm still unsure about him vs Slitherhead. I just like the fact of cards in my GY not being wasted. I decided on 24 lands because of the fact that some will be getting dumped into the GY (in my play testing I cant even say how many times 3+ lands were dumped with Grisly Salvage even at 22/23 lands). Potentially running 1 less wouldn't affect it as much as I think it will. Also remember that Deathrite Shaman can ONLY produce mana if some fall into the GY, making the probability of more than 1 (with Grisly Salvage) dropping in there very likely with 24 in the deck. In turn making your acceleration that much better. Ideally I'm looking at 6-8 available mana late game. This allows me to sac with Jarad at instant speed and maintain Card drops. Also remember, while I have Grisly Salvage and Sign in Blood, neither of those cards actually accelerates my mana, just makes sure I have it on time.
The comment about Cavern of Souls is a good one, to be honest I don't own any and is probably why I overlooked it. Consider at least a 2-of added for perfection purposes. Rancor has a place, its primarily excluded because Lotleth Troll has trample already, and is the more durable of the 2 between him and Jarad. Using it on Jarad would certainly be a good play and its possible to squeeze some in the list for some other spells, but this list is using removal to get Jarad through most of the time. Possibly putting it in the place of Golgari Charm and removing Duress from the board to keep Golgari Charm an option? I think I'll test this for a bit, see how it does.
Looking something like:
4 Gravecrawler
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Slitherhead
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Dreg Mangler
3 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Spells 13
4 Grisly Salvage
3 Sign in Blood
3 Rancor
3 Mutilate
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
6 Forest
8 Swamp
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Golgari Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Garruk Relentless
3 Desecration Demon
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
Also with the addition of Rancor (suggested by Mcpatches) I find myself a little strapped for removal. Sure creatures can get me there, but against Selesnya, or even Rakdos decks, I feel like 3 Mutilate is not going to cut it game 1. Jund is another concern that I see, their fatty creatures at the top of their curve are generally much larger than mine. So I've been debating the best way to fit some targeted removal into the deck and I believe I've found a happy medium.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Geralf's Messenger
4 Dreg Mangler
3 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Spells 15
4 Grisly Salvage
2 Sign in Blood
3 Rancor
3 Mutilate
3 Tragic Slip
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
6 Forest
7 Swamp
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Golgari Charm
3 Duress
3 Garruk Relentless
3 Desecration Demon
Ive gone back to Duress in the side board since Tragic Slip made its way into the main deck. Im still not sure on the Tragic Slip vs Golgari Charm, but its possible the ability to tear up a fatty is greater than the chance to survive a sweep or destroy an enchantment. Also back down to 23 Lands, I dont believe it will hurt me too much. As soon as I'm home I'll be putting this to the test, really enjoying the final touches and comments from people. I miss alot of stuff trying to theorycraft on my own.
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
Abandon slitherhead. Put him in a shoebox to be bulked off with other commons and uncommons 5 years from now. He is really really bad but people just haven't figured that out yet. The problem with slitherhead is this: a 1/1 for 1 is not even worth half a card. Putting a +1/+1 counter on a creature EVEN FOR FREE is NOT worth half a card. Together they don't even come close to adding up to being worth a full card. Having played against many zombie lists since switching to control, I can tell you this. Zombies is an incredibly strong deck and every time I end up facing somebody playing Slitherhead I breathe a huge sigh of relief because I know they have pre-mulliganed to 6 and my job to stabilize will be that much quicker and easier.
Yes, I understand there is synergy with the LOLteth troll. But not really. Sure, you pump him by 1 when you discard slitherhead. But unlike when you discard gravecrawler, this is pure card disadvantage because the benefit of ditching an additional +1/+1 counter - like I said earlier - is nowhere close to worth an entire card.
Like I said, I kind of wanted to keep this to myself so that people keep playing Slitherhead and it makes the zombie deck easier to beat. But I also felt like being helpful today. Thankfully for me, there will be people who just don't get the concept I presented and will tell me I am stupid or wrong and I will luckily still get my free wins off those people. But Manki, since you seem like a truly respectable player, hopefully you will get more wins because of this post.
I tend to agree with you and it looks like Manki does as well, since his latest build pulled the Slitherheads for some Geralf's Messengers. When our slithery friend was first spoiled, I was super stoked on him, but with Deathrite Shaman around, I really don't know if there's use for another one-drop that has so little board impact. I'm gonna be testing both cards in that slot, but I have no doubt at this point, the Shaman will prove preferable.
Yep, I think that I was blinded by the awesome 0 that we see on so few cards. Working with Geralf's Messenger in the build is proving to be much smoother and harder hitting. There is nothing like swinging in and then sacrificing a Geralf's Messenger for the killing blow. Or even for that matter discarding a bunch of creatures to Lotleth Troll, turning him sideways, and then sac. This is approaching the "scary" deck status and I Love it.
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
I agree with most of your assessments here, and I'm glad to have an experienced Zombie player comment on this. The biggest thing with Geralf's Messenger, is his synergy with Jarad is pretty amazing. With 3 in the deck his turn 3 probability drops as well, and on turn 3 I'm looking to drop a Dreg Mangler or better yet Jarad with a Deathrite Shaman.
Mutilate I still really like in the deck. I'm not looking to take out any fatties with it. My creatures can get big enough and i have enough combat tricks to take care of the larger creatures. So Mutilate for 4 or less is quite reasonable. Also with all the card draw The chances of getting 4 "Swamps" is very likely by at least turn 5.
I like Splinterfright alot, and may do some testing with him. I also like the idea of dropping 1 Jarad in the deck, but i think only if i decide to play Splinterfright. I want to be certain hes on the board LATEST turn 5.
Lastly, I feel like Strangleroot Geist can have the same argument as Geralf's Messenger. Obviously GG is easier than BBB but a turn earlier is also asking a demand of my mana pool.
Overall very good suggestions thank you. I will think about what you say.
"No color is OP, you just have to not suck at yours." - Manki
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!