Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
And Terminus only helps if your opponent is being a bad magic player and over extending on tokens. Otherwise, they'll just flashback after your board wipe and keep killing you.
the point being torpor orb makes all those spells single use instead of double use. And makes snappy just a 2/1 with flash.
That being said... torpor orb doesn't help against the rest of the deck or anything but bant pod (is that even still a thing?)
It also seems pretty good against Wolf Run decks that commonly use Huntmaster, Solemn Simulacrum, Inferno Titan, Primeval Titan, Acidic Slime, Phyrexian Metamorph, etc.
It also seems pretty good against Wolf Run decks that commonly use Huntmaster, Solemn Simulacrum, Inferno Titan, Primeval Titan, Acidic Slime, Phyrexian Metamorph, etc.
but that deck also has a board of 4 ancient grudges... torpor orb is just going to be a bump on the road. And it can still win without that EtB triggers (attack with titans or flip huntmaster) Clone effects are not effected by torpor orb. So the only thing on that list that's really hurt is Acidic slime. So, I think you should board in other answers for a deck like that...
I'm no expert on Standard (Legacy player, mostly), but I've seen a match or two, and I've seen what B/W tokens can do. If you have to wait until turn 6 to wipe the board (only to have LS flashed back), you're probably already dead. And having to hardcast it probably means you're going to be off-tempo trying to recover.
I think you'd much rather see Day of Judgment in your hand against a token horde than Terminus, but Ratchet Bomb is still better (and with U/W Delver still dominating, it's relevant there too).
Terminus is maybe better than Day of Judgment against undying creatures. As for tokens, as others have said already, you're only catching those opponents who over-extend. If they're dropping a lot of tokens on the board, you probably also have creatures on the board, so you stand to lose as much as they do, if not more.
The only way to make it reasonable is if you only spent W for it, and can immediately start to recover (and in this dept. Devestating Tide might be better: their tokens disappear, and your stuff goes to your hand).
if you remember Hallowed Burial, you know why Terminus is ridiculous. Yeah its 1 more mana to hardcast, but topdecking it for 1 early game puts you so far ahead, since zombies used to be able to get control and ramp players to like 10 or lower before t4. Now it's going to be near impossible for zombies to even be in the format. Red got a big boost in power and got its ace in the hole for zombies.
Terminus wipes Human boards as well as Tokens as well as anything else, and the Evacuation miracle hits everything including PWs, thats nuts.
Aggro might be all zippy about Cavern of Souls, but control is officially jacked now. The only things it was countering were creature spells anyway, so now the removal just replaces the countermagic.
if you remember Hallowed Burial, you know why Terminus is ridiculous. Yeah its 1 more mana to hardcast, but topdecking it for 1 early game puts you so far ahead, since zombies used to be able to get control and ramp players to like 10 or lower before t4. Now it's going to be near impossible for zombies to even be in the format. Red got a big boost in power and got its ace in the hole for zombies.
Terminus wipes Human boards as well as Tokens as well as anything else, and the Evacuation miracle hits everything including PWs, thats nuts.
Aggro might be all zippy about Cavern of Souls, but control is officially jacked now. The only things it was countering were creature spells anyway, so now the removal just replaces the countermagic.
I don't know how it was in Standard, but Hallowed Burial isn't played in Legacy, so without the miracle, neither would Terminus. Legacy's a format where Wrath of God is considered expensive.
But I agree that if you can cast it for its miracle cost, it's powerful. The challenge is to draw it when you actually need it. Otherwise it's a brick (except in Legacy for U/W using Brainstorm). Might be sideboard material, though, for aggro/horde decks (like Dredge, Elves Combo, and the soon-to-be uncounterable Goblins). Its usefulness against Maverick is limited by that Teeg bastard.
Although teeg is annoying, terminus / reforge the soul are the miracles you would want to personal tutor for. I see them getting the most play of the miracle cards (more than temporal mastery).
[/LIST][U][B]Snapcaster[/B][/U][LIST]
[*]Cavern of Souls. Not getting into the debate, but since R&D cites it as helpful, I'm guessing it has helped in their tests.[/LIST]What else am I missing? Will update as the spoiler continues.
Just like Hex Parasite, Phyrexian Revoker, and Despise were deemed worthy tests for caw-blade, right?
Cavern of Souls just makes the Snapcaster Mage problem worse. Instead of being used to stop his shenanigans it's just going to cause it so that what you do with him can't be countered.
WotC can't print good answers because they just don't understand the questions or the minds that concocting the questions.
List tags are malformed.
Just like Hex Parasite, Phyrexian Revoker, and Despise were deemed worthy tests for caw-blade, right?
Cavern of Souls just makes the Snapcaster Mage problem worse. Instead of being used to stop his shenanigans it's just going to cause it so that what you do with him can't be countered.
WotC can't print good answers because they just don't understand the questions or the minds that concocting the questions.
I don't buy this at all. Yeah, Snapcaster can pull off shenanigans, but making Snapcaster un-leakable doesn't present HALF the problem that printing a license for eight leaks in a deck did. It's a good answer; maybe not a perfect answer, but naming "human" so that your Snappy doesn't get leaked is situational at best.
Also, saying WotC can't print answers because they don't get it is just myopic. You really don't think they know what's going on in the meta? Bollocks. They know what's going down, and I guarantee more games will be stolen FROM decks packing four Snapcasters vs. a deck packing four Caverns, than it will steal games FOR decks already packing four Snappies.
I'm mainly concerned about the Zealous Conscripts + Cavern issues that arise. Zealous Conscripts is an undeniably powerful card, and the best answer for it is Mana Leak.
I'm finding myself really wanting to push Sun Titan in control for the new meta, if only to recur Ghost Quarter for Cavern.
Got a nice little homebrew going, I'll see how it does at GP Minneapolis.
Vs. Frites: Terminus
Vs. Zombies: Angel of Glory's Rise (no one else but me will be using this, but hey, it's still there!)
Thanks to Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures!
Also, if you want to hose Snapcaster-based strategies, why not Torpor Orb?
terminus can be cast without miracle.
Because nobody loses to Snapcaster; they lose to Mana Leak, Vapor Snag, and Swords. And Snapcaster helps out with most of that.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
the point being torpor orb makes all those spells single use instead of double use. And makes snappy just a 2/1 with flash.
That being said... torpor orb doesn't help against the rest of the deck or anything but bant pod (is that even still a thing?)
And Terminus only helps if your opponent is being a bad magic player and over extending on tokens. Otherwise, they'll just flashback after your board wipe and keep killing you.
It also seems pretty good against Wolf Run decks that commonly use Huntmaster, Solemn Simulacrum, Inferno Titan, Primeval Titan, Acidic Slime, Phyrexian Metamorph, etc.
but that deck also has a board of 4 ancient grudges... torpor orb is just going to be a bump on the road. And it can still win without that EtB triggers (attack with titans or flip huntmaster) Clone effects are not effected by torpor orb. So the only thing on that list that's really hurt is Acidic slime. So, I think you should board in other answers for a deck like that...
Sure, for 4WW.
I'm no expert on Standard (Legacy player, mostly), but I've seen a match or two, and I've seen what B/W tokens can do. If you have to wait until turn 6 to wipe the board (only to have LS flashed back), you're probably already dead. And having to hardcast it probably means you're going to be off-tempo trying to recover.
I think you'd much rather see Day of Judgment in your hand against a token horde than Terminus, but Ratchet Bomb is still better (and with U/W Delver still dominating, it's relevant there too).
Terminus is maybe better than Day of Judgment against undying creatures. As for tokens, as others have said already, you're only catching those opponents who over-extend. If they're dropping a lot of tokens on the board, you probably also have creatures on the board, so you stand to lose as much as they do, if not more.
The only way to make it reasonable is if you only spent W for it, and can immediately start to recover (and in this dept. Devestating Tide might be better: their tokens disappear, and your stuff goes to your hand).
Terminus wipes Human boards as well as Tokens as well as anything else, and the Evacuation miracle hits everything including PWs, thats nuts.
Aggro might be all zippy about Cavern of Souls, but control is officially jacked now. The only things it was countering were creature spells anyway, so now the removal just replaces the countermagic.
I don't know how it was in Standard, but Hallowed Burial isn't played in Legacy, so without the miracle, neither would Terminus. Legacy's a format where Wrath of God is considered expensive.
But I agree that if you can cast it for its miracle cost, it's powerful. The challenge is to draw it when you actually need it. Otherwise it's a brick (except in Legacy for U/W using Brainstorm). Might be sideboard material, though, for aggro/horde decks (like Dredge, Elves Combo, and the soon-to-be uncounterable Goblins). Its usefulness against Maverick is limited by that Teeg bastard.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
Just like Hex Parasite, Phyrexian Revoker, and Despise were deemed worthy tests for caw-blade, right?
Cavern of Souls just makes the Snapcaster Mage problem worse. Instead of being used to stop his shenanigans it's just going to cause it so that what you do with him can't be countered.
WotC can't print good answers because they just don't understand the questions or the minds that concocting the questions.
List tags are malformed.
I don't buy this at all. Yeah, Snapcaster can pull off shenanigans, but making Snapcaster un-leakable doesn't present HALF the problem that printing a license for eight leaks in a deck did. It's a good answer; maybe not a perfect answer, but naming "human" so that your Snappy doesn't get leaked is situational at best.
Also, saying WotC can't print answers because they don't get it is just myopic. You really don't think they know what's going on in the meta? Bollocks. They know what's going down, and I guarantee more games will be stolen FROM decks packing four Snapcasters vs. a deck packing four Caverns, than it will steal games FOR decks already packing four Snappies.
I'm finding myself really wanting to push Sun Titan in control for the new meta, if only to recur Ghost Quarter for Cavern.
Got a nice little homebrew going, I'll see how it does at GP Minneapolis.