So this deck is different than LouCypher's list (even if he's pushed me to actually post mine) and plays according to a few premises:
-EDH is a multiplayer format.
-EDH is a 40 life format.
Because of the 40 life per player, and the multiple players to kill, cheating out big threats is not that good. Getting a turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine is great in 60 card casual, but when you have 3 players to go through, each taking 7 hits, your Wurmcoil ends up looking sad. Cheating eldrazi out would be more impressive, but they don't work as well due to being artifacts. Jhoira also lets us cheat out stuff, with a delay.
To go around this, I wanted to find a way to slow the game down so that I could benefit more from my ability to cheat stuff into play. There were man possibilities (especially since I can use Artifact mana to counteract them or ramp into them). Land destruction cards (either full like Boom // Bust or half like Wildfire) were a possibility, but doing it like other Jhoira decks isn't that cool. I'd like to stand out a bit more and show that Jhoira isn't always about blowing up your lands. Also I don't want people to get butthurt and quit games. Secretly, this also messes with the Super Secret Explosive Trick. Another possibility is just to keep lands tapped so that people can amass lands (and so not complain) and then not quit because they hope that the Orb will eventually be destroyed. The last possibility that came to mind is including taxing effects to slow down other players. This is usually a bad idea when you are casting more spells than your opponents but it might be a possibility in this deck as I feel it's not like I'm casting a lot of cheap stuff so it wouldn't increase the % of the cost of my cards a lot and I'm often bypassing the need to pay for cards. These two work better with the Super Special Explosive Trick.
What I ended up doing:
I use cards like winter orb to slow down the game to a more "reasonable" pace (it also works well with artifact mana). Static Orb provides a back up, but I've actually managed to tutor up Winter Orb quite often so I don't know if I need it, I guess it could be useful if Winter Orb gets exiled) and I've considered adding stuff like Rising Waters to help with the lockdown. I think the Taxing could also work with this strategy.
Looking at the list more and wanting to fit about 10 more cards, I'm looking for thing to cut. The possibilities include the salvaging station package, the super secret explosive package, the 5 big beaters or just random other cards. Looking at it, the deck is following my path of "start with a lot of creatures, remove them all". The only reason the big artifact creatures are in is because i feel bad cutting them. I could get rid of the darksteel forge and the leviathan.
I want to add Tangle Wire. I'm not sure what to cut, but I'm thinking Scrap Mastery as I've never casted it. But it goes well with the Super Secret Combo.
Jhoira's Super Sexy Special Secret Explosive Trick:
The package is about 15 cards, but many overlap with other parts of the deck. The net "weight" of the package (cards I wouldn't keep in the deck if I decided to scrap the package) is about 10 cards. Most cards have multiple purposes though.
A few things I like about the package:
The whole thing works from the graveyard. They can be used for minor advantages early or discarded to the various looting effects.
It's possible to use even when the stax is heavy on the field. And when resources are scarce.
None of the cards are only useful in the package.
There is great redundancy
The pieces don't make an obvious combo, and look fairly weak alone, they aren't likely to be targetted.
So the trick involves multiple parts:
Mana Generation: This is Mana Geyser, Turnabout, Intellectual Offering, Blinkmoth Infusion. They provide you with lots of mana. Even through Stax effects.
Grave Casting: Past in Flames, Mystic Retrieval, Recoup. Two of these can only target one card, so they tend to be used first. Mystic Retrieval costs more but allows for extra stuff by not exiling the card. One powerful play is to cast Mystic Retrieval on Past in Flame when both are in the graveyard. It does cost extra mana, but you get so much more utility.
Winning: Fuel a giant X spell. Molten Disaster can kill everyone, and keep you alive if you have a planeswalker to redirect the damage to. Comet Storm targets, is counterable, but is instant speed and sends nothing your way. I went with one of each.
Increasing Vengeance fits in all the above categories.
Now, a lot of the cards in the rest of the deck interact well with this combo. Artifacts obviously fuel more mana. Stax effect give you more time to go off, ensure a fat Mana Geyser, stops interaction and usually are the reason why you managed to have so many artifacts in play (both by eating artifact removal and by preventing people from playing it). Spell-based artifact recursion can be cast mid "combo" to get back key pieces or artifacts of note. All the looting and wheel effects let you stock up your graveyard full of cards that make your finish that much better. No one really puts the stuff in your grave together. Even more so if they see a Scrap Mastery, they will only see the artifacts. Treasure Cruise/Argivian Restoration should be targeting either mana production artifacts or stuff like Krark-Clan Ironworks or Salvaging Station at that point.
The way I usually win involves seeing a decent portion of the deck like maybe 20-25 cards, and then trying to wheel as many times as I can, using tutors for Memory Jar, recursion for wheels and trying to see a good percentage of the deck. I often copy wheel effects with Increasing Vengeance even if this just means milling 7/14, as you get a lot from your graveyard. After seeing 40-60 cards, you can easily go "off".
Also removed Darksteel Forge and Vedalken Archmage for Tangle Wire and Gilded Lotus.
So... sort of off topic but all of your decks sound like tabloid titles... what is up with that?
How much do you find yourself using your commander out of curosity? Have you ever considered moving to Mishra, Artificer Prodigy? There are a few fun tricks he can do where it doesn't feel like you are really using your commander all that much currently. Possibility Storm for instance is quite amusing.
So... sort of off topic but all of your decks sound like tabloid titles... what is up with that?
How much do you find yourself using your commander out of curosity? Have you ever considered moving to Mishra, Artificer Prodigy? There are a few fun tricks he can do where it doesn't feel like you are really using your commander all that much currently. Possibility Storm for instance is quite amusing.
\
It's a bit for fun. I noticed that I got more views on a thread when doing something similar so it just became a thing.
I don't really use Jhoira much. I do, however, am currently on a two color spree, and don't really make decks that have one or three colors. 2 has a certain je ne sais quoi. Mishra could be good, as he also allows for the better spellbombs, the new Windfall, and Yawg's Win. Man, I just sorta convinced me a tiny bit more... For now, I think I'll stick with Jhoira as she sorta is a pet card of mine (since I read the books) and I was very happy to finally "use" her.
The very last post by Jostin123 on this link breaks down all the ways to abuse Karn if you want to get as much out of him as possible.
Karn could be cool. I read through the list, most of them were obvious, but I think a few towards the end surprised me (can't recall off hand which) and now I'm considering him. The list is kinda tight (I want to fit in counters and more salvaging station cards already) but I'll keep him in mind for the future, thanks.
Thinking about it, I think it was the Salvaging Station, Karn blocker interaction.
If you're not using Jhoira that much and want an alternate commander in the same colors, have you considered Nin, the Pain Artist? She comes down cheap, turns your creatures into draw and can act as spot removal in a pinch. I've been piloting her in a similar Izzet artificer build (list not posted yet) and she's really pulled her weight.
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EDH/Commander
(W/U)(W/U)Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage: The New da Vinci (historic control)
(W/B)(W/B)Teysa Karlov: Death Be Not Kind (aristocrats)
(R/G)(R/G)Hallar, the Firefletcher: Yavimaya Burning (kicker and counters)
(B/G)(G/U)Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: Queen of the Damned (dredge)
Maybe Build
(W/U)(U/B)Aminatou, the Fateshifter: And a Child Shall Lead Them (superfriends)
So... sort of off topic but all of your decks sound like tabloid titles... what is up with that?
Some people just live for journalism.
Aside, if you really want to use Jhoira instead of Mishra, or Daretti, then you should probably put some value in there for her. Darksteel Collosus? Or, if you're really mean, Blightsteel?
If you're not using Jhoira that much and want an alternate commander in the same colors, have you considered Nin, the Pain Artist? She comes down cheap, turns your creatures into draw and can act as spot removal in a pinch. I've been piloting her in a similar Izzet artificer build (list not posted yet) and she's really pulled her weight.
I'm happy with Jhoira for flavor reasons. I did see people advocating for Nin when I did research for the deck. It would require a few more creatures. Don't get me wrong, I very well could see it working, make it a stax deck rather than a tap deck, add Smokestack, Artifact Token producers, Arcum, Kukresk, Nin, comboes, and you'd have a more competitive version. However, the flavour would be different, I wouldn't be able to bring it to the casual nights, I'd lose both Jhoira, and the Super Sexy Secret Explosive Trick, my two favourite parts of the deck.
Aside, if you really want to use Jhoira instead of Mishra, or Daretti, then you should probably put some value in there for her. Darksteel Collosus? Or, if you're really mean, Blightsteel?
Also, Hellkite Tyrant can win you games.
Those would work, but I don't like things that only fit one way. They both can't be reanimated, and therefore only work with Jhoira. Darksteel is very underwhelming in Commmander, and Blightsteel is like Kaalia in that it seems scarier than it is. It'll make me target, and give them 4 turns to prepare to deal with them. All in all not a good fit (4 turns for 3 players to find exile removal, bounce, a sacrifice effect, a act of treason effect that can target creatures or artifacts, or just kill me :/ ). Hellkite Tyrant is something I want to avoid. I personally really dislike 1 or two card "I win" conditions. He also is risky or me due to Clones, Bribery, Steal or Reanimation.
Tbh, I'm a tiny bit annoyed by how much I like the Mishra idea. I don't actually care for black that much, but Mishra would be castable mana rocks, making me not need to change the deck a lot at all. However, he allows me a few things I'd really like:
Better mana rocks (I'd have access to the grixis ones if need be).
Nihil Spellbomb (I really want it, it would go great)
Yawg's Will: This would let me re evaluate the Super Sexy Trick.
Black X spells: Same as above.
An extra artifact land.
More stax effects.
Whisper of Madness.
Other Tezzeret.
I don't really want to switch, but I might make a second deck and pull them apart in different directions...
So I played this deck last night vs Grimgrin, Oloro, and Reaper King Superfriends. Had a blast. Since we had not much time we were to play with as little restraint as possible. I had a 1 land hand, kept the Island and the Mind Stone and threw the rest, I got 3 more lands, Mana Vault and Sol Ring. 4 lands, 3 mana rocks. I kept for the lulz, got Dack Fayden, and started cycling. On turn 3 I got a Wheel of Fortune. I ended up with a crazy board state (I drew a lot more mana rocks). I after a few more turns ended up with Goblin Welder, Duplicant, Trading Post, Static Orb(never played), Chromatic Star, Phyrexian Furnace, Salvaging Station, and I drew Possessed Portal. I Welder'd in the Possessed Portal and the game turned into Archenemy. I almost prevailed, but Thassa unblockabl'd Grimgrin is quite a beating. It really took all 3 of them to stop me (Salvaging Station + Baubles to feed the Possessed Portal was quite nice) To the point where in two turns, all three did a play that if they didn't do them all together, I'd have come on top.
I quite like this deck, I'd like to improve it more.
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14 Island
14 Mountain
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Command Tower
1 Phyrexia's Core (Sac)
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Academy Ruins (Recursion)
Planeswalkers:
3 Dack Fayden (also Loot)
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant (also Loot, Reanimate)
5 Tezzeret, the Seeker (also Tutor)
Tutors:
2x Reshape (also Sac)
3 Fabricate
3 Treasure Mage
Wheels:
3 Wheel of Fortune
5 Reforge the Soul
3 Windfall
5 Memory Jar
Slow the Game:
2 Winter Orb
3 Static Orb
3 Tangle Wire
Resursion:
4 Trading Post (also Draw, Sac)
2 Myr Retriever
3 Junk Diver
1 Goblin Welder
3 Trash for Treasure (also Sac)
5 Scrap Mastery (Mass)
4 Argivian Restoration
Misc:
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks (Sac, Mana)
4 Solemn Simulacrum (Ramp, Draw)
2 Torpor Orb
1 Voltaic Key (Untap)
2 Etherium Sculptor
Salvaging Station Package: ++;
1 Phyrexian Furnace (Gravehate)
1 Scrabbling Claws (Gravehate)
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Chromatic Star
Big:
6 Wurmcoil Engine
6 Steel Hellkite
6 Duplicant
6 Salvaging Station
6 Sharding Sphinx
6 Soul of New Phyrexia
7 Myr Battlesphere
7 Spine of Ish Sah
8 Possessed Portal
Mana Rocks:
5 Gilded Lotus
3 Unstable Obelisk
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Worn Powerstone
3 Chromatic Lantern
6 Dreamstone Hedron
2 Izzet Signet
3 Izzet Cluestone
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
2 Prophetic Prism
2 Grim Monolith
4 Ur-Golem's Eye
3 Basalt Monolith
2 Mind Stone
3 Commander Sphere
2 Recoup
5 Mana Geyser
3 Mystic Retrieval
2x Molten Disaster
4 Intellectual Offering
2x Comet Storm
4 Turnabout
4 Past in Flames
14 Blinkmoth Infusion
2 Increasing Vengeance
So, this is my current list. The win con is big beats, or more usually, the super secret win con. Expect to see a bit more info about it soon.
-EDH is a multiplayer format.
-EDH is a 40 life format.
Because of the 40 life per player, and the multiple players to kill, cheating out big threats is not that good. Getting a turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine is great in 60 card casual, but when you have 3 players to go through, each taking 7 hits, your Wurmcoil ends up looking sad. Cheating eldrazi out would be more impressive, but they don't work as well due to being artifacts. Jhoira also lets us cheat out stuff, with a delay.
To go around this, I wanted to find a way to slow the game down so that I could benefit more from my ability to cheat stuff into play. There were man possibilities (especially since I can use Artifact mana to counteract them or ramp into them). Land destruction cards (either full like Boom // Bust or half like Wildfire) were a possibility, but doing it like other Jhoira decks isn't that cool. I'd like to stand out a bit more and show that Jhoira isn't always about blowing up your lands. Also I don't want people to get butthurt and quit games. Secretly, this also messes with the Super Secret Explosive Trick. Another possibility is just to keep lands tapped so that people can amass lands (and so not complain) and then not quit because they hope that the Orb will eventually be destroyed. The last possibility that came to mind is including taxing effects to slow down other players. This is usually a bad idea when you are casting more spells than your opponents but it might be a possibility in this deck as I feel it's not like I'm casting a lot of cheap stuff so it wouldn't increase the % of the cost of my cards a lot and I'm often bypassing the need to pay for cards. These two work better with the Super Special Explosive Trick.
What I ended up doing:
I use cards like winter orb to slow down the game to a more "reasonable" pace (it also works well with artifact mana). Static Orb provides a back up, but I've actually managed to tutor up Winter Orb quite often so I don't know if I need it, I guess it could be useful if Winter Orb gets exiled) and I've considered adding stuff like Rising Waters to help with the lockdown. I think the Taxing could also work with this strategy.
Cards I'd want to add:
10 Counterspells (various)
2x MD (Added to the super explosive package win con. Replaces E.)
2 Torpor Orb (So much ETB hate)
2 Defense Grid (Tutorable hate)
2 Sphere of Resistance (see paragraph above)
4 Lodestone Golem (see paragraph above)
3 Back to Basics (see paragraph above)
4 Rising Waters (see paragraph above)
4 Master Transmuter (Cheating stuff into play)
1 Salvaging Station fodder (the Spellbomb or more directed hate (I've got lots of tutors)
WIP
Thoughts for individual cuts?
In;
I want to add Tangle Wire. I'm not sure what to cut, but I'm thinking Scrap Mastery as I've never casted it. But it goes well with the Super Secret Combo.
The package is about 15 cards, but many overlap with other parts of the deck. The net "weight" of the package (cards I wouldn't keep in the deck if I decided to scrap the package) is about 10 cards. Most cards have multiple purposes though.
A few things I like about the package:
The whole thing works from the graveyard. They can be used for minor advantages early or discarded to the various looting effects.
It's possible to use even when the stax is heavy on the field. And when resources are scarce.
None of the cards are only useful in the package.
There is great redundancy
The pieces don't make an obvious combo, and look fairly weak alone, they aren't likely to be targetted.
So the trick involves multiple parts:
Mana Generation: This is Mana Geyser, Turnabout, Intellectual Offering, Blinkmoth Infusion. They provide you with lots of mana. Even through Stax effects.
Grave Casting: Past in Flames, Mystic Retrieval, Recoup. Two of these can only target one card, so they tend to be used first. Mystic Retrieval costs more but allows for extra stuff by not exiling the card. One powerful play is to cast Mystic Retrieval on Past in Flame when both are in the graveyard. It does cost extra mana, but you get so much more utility.
Winning: Fuel a giant X spell. Molten Disaster can kill everyone, and keep you alive if you have a planeswalker to redirect the damage to. Comet Storm targets, is counterable, but is instant speed and sends nothing your way. I went with one of each.
Increasing Vengeance fits in all the above categories.
Now, a lot of the cards in the rest of the deck interact well with this combo. Artifacts obviously fuel more mana. Stax effect give you more time to go off, ensure a fat Mana Geyser, stops interaction and usually are the reason why you managed to have so many artifacts in play (both by eating artifact removal and by preventing people from playing it). Spell-based artifact recursion can be cast mid "combo" to get back key pieces or artifacts of note. All the looting and wheel effects let you stock up your graveyard full of cards that make your finish that much better. No one really puts the stuff in your grave together. Even more so if they see a Scrap Mastery, they will only see the artifacts. Treasure Cruise/Argivian Restoration should be targeting either mana production artifacts or stuff like Krark-Clan Ironworks or Salvaging Station at that point.
The way I usually win involves seeing a decent portion of the deck like maybe 20-25 cards, and then trying to wheel as many times as I can, using tutors for Memory Jar, recursion for wheels and trying to see a good percentage of the deck. I often copy wheel effects with Increasing Vengeance even if this just means milling 7/14, as you get a lot from your graveyard. After seeing 40-60 cards, you can easily go "off".
Also removed Darksteel Forge and Vedalken Archmage for Tangle Wire and Gilded Lotus.
How much do you find yourself using your commander out of curosity? Have you ever considered moving to Mishra, Artificer Prodigy? There are a few fun tricks he can do where it doesn't feel like you are really using your commander all that much currently. Possibility Storm for instance is quite amusing.
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[Modern] Allies
The very last post by Jostin123 on this link breaks down all the ways to abuse Karn if you want to get as much out of him as possible.
It's a bit for fun. I noticed that I got more views on a thread when doing something similar so it just became a thing.
I don't really use Jhoira much. I do, however, am currently on a two color spree, and don't really make decks that have one or three colors. 2 has a certain je ne sais quoi. Mishra could be good, as he also allows for the better spellbombs, the new Windfall, and Yawg's Win. Man, I just sorta convinced me a tiny bit more... For now, I think I'll stick with Jhoira as she sorta is a pet card of mine (since I read the books) and I was very happy to finally "use" her.
Karn could be cool. I read through the list, most of them were obvious, but I think a few towards the end surprised me (can't recall off hand which) and now I'm considering him. The list is kinda tight (I want to fit in counters and more salvaging station cards already) but I'll keep him in mind for the future, thanks.
Thinking about it, I think it was the Salvaging Station, Karn blocker interaction.
I'll see if I can pick up a copy of him today.
Some people just live for journalism.
Aside, if you really want to use Jhoira instead of Mishra, or Daretti, then you should probably put some value in there for her. Darksteel Collosus? Or, if you're really mean, Blightsteel?
Also, Hellkite Tyrant can win you games.
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
Those would work, but I don't like things that only fit one way. They both can't be reanimated, and therefore only work with Jhoira. Darksteel is very underwhelming in Commmander, and Blightsteel is like Kaalia in that it seems scarier than it is. It'll make me target, and give them 4 turns to prepare to deal with them. All in all not a good fit (4 turns for 3 players to find exile removal, bounce, a sacrifice effect, a act of treason effect that can target creatures or artifacts, or just kill me :/ ). Hellkite Tyrant is something I want to avoid. I personally really dislike 1 or two card "I win" conditions. He also is risky or me due to Clones, Bribery, Steal or Reanimation.
Better mana rocks (I'd have access to the grixis ones if need be).
Nihil Spellbomb (I really want it, it would go great)
Yawg's Will: This would let me re evaluate the Super Sexy Trick.
Black X spells: Same as above.
An extra artifact land.
More stax effects.
Whisper of Madness.
Other Tezzeret.
I don't really want to switch, but I might make a second deck and pull them apart in different directions...
I quite like this deck, I'd like to improve it more.