I would like to hear your comments and thoughts, anything I can do to make it better would be great! If I get enough input and information and maybe a little bit of help, I would really like to turn this into the official Maelstrom Wanderer Primer, or at least get some kind of honorable mention in one if there is one.
Wurmcoil Enginge: I feel like there are better creatures, somewhere.......
Palincron: He feels kind of gimmicky, untap all lands off a good cascade, crazy infinite mana combo's, but otherwise, not completely neccesary.
Craterhoof Behemoth: I can't bump into him with Maelstrom Wanderer, so he is only useful with tooth and nail for lethal. Granted he is usually good enough to hardcast by himself anyway, but I wont get a very huge buff as I don't have very many creatures on board unless I am already trying to win the game.
Diluvian Primordial: Can be insanely backbreaking when there are time walk effects in graveyards, or ramp spells, but lately I have been cascading into him and hitting absolutely nothing. I guess it depends on the meta for this guy?
Glen Elendra Archmage: Countering non creature spells when everyone's commander is a creature seems eh.... I guess there isn't anyone better, too bad mystic snake doesn't have persist.
Plasm Capture: I can't afford mana drain otherwise it would be out of there. Or maybe I would run them both?
Archaeomancer: I already have Eternal Witness in the deck who costs 1 less and is better. I just feel like running two of this effect seems like a waste of a card slot that could be put to better use.
Consecrated Sphinx: Barely survives a single pass around the table, although when it does, I usually win the game in a turn or two. Also sometimes loses me the game by painting a big target on my head.
Counterspell's: Many lists do not run counter spells of any kind, or very limited counter spells as they are bad to cascade into, this is a very tempting idea of just making it into a turbo ramp shove strategy, but I feel that Maelstrom has more durability all around with some counter spells to help shove things along.
Roil Elemental: I have yet to play a game where this guy really shines for me, most of the time he either gets spot removed at the worst time, or there aren't any creatures on board for me to steal, or they have hexproof or shroud.
Deadeye Navigator: Another one of those cards that functions really well as a combo piece, but ultimately feels like the deck could operate without him, maybe even a little better.
Recurring Insight: Feels too expensive to do anything but bump into it with Maelstrom, by the time I could cast this, I am usually casting my commander instead. Also without a Reliquary tower out, this card can really bite you in the butt. It can also be pretty hit and miss, I have drawn 30 cards off of this card before, and I have drawn 2 cards off of this card before. I have thought about running Stroke of Genius on the off chance I manage to loop infinite mana and can kill someone by making them draw their entire library.
Karn Liberated:His +1 doesn't let me choose, and a single card out of a single players hand is extremely underwhelming. While his -3 is really good, I don't feel like he impacts the board state in a way that would help me win the game, and I would never use his -14 in a commander game, that's just silly.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre: 9/10 times I would tooth and nail this guy out after the fact that Maelstrom was on board, denying his casted triggered ability and just making him a big meat stick with a fancy annihhilator trigger. While that would end games pretty abruptly, I would also lose a lot of games from having my eldrazi stolen from me and swung at me. Maelstrom is too glassy of a deck to handle being hit with annihilator triggers to survive. While he did make the deck immune to mill strategies, I haven't personally encountered a single mill strategy I was afraid of, so I felt that other creatures that could actually be cascaded into would be better for the deck.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth: Same reason as Ulamog.
Defense of the Heart: I felt this card really shined because of Ulamog and Kozilek, without them, the only two creatures I would most likely grab would be Craterhoof Behemoth and Avenger of Zendikar, I just felt that the card slot was better used by other by other options. I feel this card will probably go in and out of my deck a lot. This card is also a glorified tooth and nail on a stick, so it puts a pretty big target on your head.
Animar, Soul of Elements: I really liked this guy, but I usually don't play enough creatures, and by the time this guy gets big enough to let me play any of my bombs, people either start focusing on trying to kill me, or simply kill him instead.
Time Stretch I cut time stretch because I was tired of bottoming it when I bumped into it with Maelstrom, and almost every time I cast it, it gets counter spelled and puts a huge target on my head.
Crystal Shard I don't feel like I get enough value out of recasting my smaller creatures, and having to recast my bigger creatures made the deck kind of feel clunky, I would rather be casting more creatures than the same ones over and over again, abusing ETB triggers is more for Deadeye Navigator. While this card is good at bouncing my commander and playing him over and over again, Having to use the blue made it difficult sometimes to recast him and I just felt that food chain did an all around better job.
Boundless Realms I see so many Maelstrom lists run this! I personally dislike this card in 3 color decks. I am only running 14 basic lands and have too many cheaper effects that put basics into play. I rarely casted this card for full value and having that many lands come into play that fast puts a huge target on your head.
Temple of the false God I cut this card because I kept getting hands with 3 or 4 mana rocks, and only 3 lands with this being one of them, only to be stuck at 6 or 7 mana not being able to cast my commander because of only having this land with 2 or 3 others in play.
Is there a particular reason you run so many counterspells? You don't really have much in the way of ensuring your cascade, so I would look into Sensei's Divining Top, Scroll Rack, Soothsaying, or even just Crystal Ball. You can also run Cream of the Crop to ensure that your Wanderer cascade is a strong one.
Other counterspells I'd run/replace is Hinder and Spelljack, simply because they work better with Wanderer than a plain old counter.
Lastly, unless you need to untap your artifacts, I'd replace Seedborn Muse with Prophet of Kruphix.
I run so many counter spells because it gives me the option to play the deck like a control deck. It also makes the deck very resilient to any kind of combo or removal trying to shut it down. It pretty much just ensures that I cascade out smoothly. Sometimes I will bump into them yes, but you can just choose not to cast them and bottom them. I find that 8 is a good number. The math boils down to about worst case scenario, its about a 10% chance you will bump into a counter spell. It is also not too many to bump into, yet enough to actually draw and be useful.
As for Scroll Rack: I traded the only one I had away and got shafted pretty hard in the process so I don't really feel like blowing $25 on another one. Although, I really should, it goes perfect with the deck....
Soothsaying: This card seems pretty good, I usually keep my mana open to counterspell or keep some extra mana open to counterspell as I am about to go off, so this would be a great way to recycle that mana if I don't end up using it.
Crystal Ball : Would rather run Soothsaying, it just feels like a bit of an underwhelming artifact, that card slot could be put to way better use.
Cream of the Crop: A lot of my early creatures are usually 2/2's, so this would only really help me after I have cascaded out. It also says find one card, and bottom the rest, so I would only really be setting up one good thing to cascade into best case scenario, and some other random card.
How does Hinder work better with Maelstrom? Having him on the top my library is a really scary idea, anyone could fate seal me or make me mill or something and having him on the bottom of the library is doing everyone at the table a favor.
Also I have considered spelljack and Desertion as you can just counter your own commander and then cast him again for free, or have him be countered and just sit there anyway, but I find that the cheaper counter spells tend to work better, especially the un-counterable ones. I also don't own a spelljack, but I could probably get one pretty easily.
As for Prophet Of Kruphix I have considered him highly, but when I have Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir or Alchemist's Refuge on board untapping all of my artifacts and pretty much having another turn on everyone else's turn is really nice. I have not play tested with Prophet of Kruphix, but I would really like to. I do own one, what do you think I should cut for it? I like the idea of running Prophet of Kruphix and Seedborn Muse together, tapping all of my lands in response to the one trigger and flashing in as many creatures from my hand as possible, just to have them all untap again.
Prophet of Kruphix and Seedborn Muse don't work together like you think; for one, nobody gets priority during the untap step, and also they're replacement effects and not triggers.
Hinder is better for you because it isn't necessarily a dead cascade: if you hit it on your second cascade off of Maelstrom Wanderer and anticipate that the big guy is going to eat some removal pretty soon, you can throw him on top of your lib, where you can draw him and then recast for more cascades. A normal counterspell you'd just have to not cast off the cascade (that's a valid option). Additionally, Hinder's good for countering enemy commanders.
Hmmm, you have a really valid point about Hinder. I never know what to cut though... what do you guys think I should cut? Do I have too much of any one thing? Like ramp or dig or something?
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Hmmm, you have a really valid point about Hinder. I never know what to cut though... what do you guys think I should cut? Do I have too much of any one thing? Like ramp or dig or something?
In my opinion Hinder is pretty terrible in this deck. No matter how much we try to convince ourselves, it is a terrible cascade. Hindering to the top is supposedly better than a regular counterspell because it lets us recast Wanderer next turn, without the tempo loss from having a general tax. So you gain that tempo over a regular counter at the cost of... tempo. You lose your haste, your 7/5 general damage beater, and your draw for the next turn. If instead Hinder was, like, any relevant spell, we would have a relevant spell instead. Much better.
But a step further, the reason I don't like counters in Wanderer decks, aside from them being very poor cascades (we can run poor cascade cards, in fact we have to), is that we like to tap out and be proactive. Wanderer doesn't like to sit back and EOT stuff. We make hay while the sun is shining and beat face. It's what the card does best. Now, granted, everyone can build the deck however they so choose, whichever build fits their play style, but as far as maximizing the potential of a Wanderer deck that is not being build under certain restrictions (i.e. wanting to run a control version, or a Boundless Surge version, or tribal elementals or what have you) the counters are not very beneficial to the deck, even though they can have their moments.
Edit: I apologize to anyone if I come across as a dick or offend you. I say my opinion very matter-of-factly, and I don't mean it to sound like gospel or be degrading, I just mean to voice my difference of opinion to advance the conversation. Also, I would point out that I have heard others speak very highly of Mana Drain and Spelljack for MW counterspells, although I have not had much success with Drain in my build, and I have not tried Spelljack myself.
In my opinion Hinder is pretty terrible in this deck. No matter how much we try to convince ourselves, it is a terrible cascade. Hindering to the top is supposedly better than a regular counterspell because it lets us recast Wanderer next turn, without the tempo loss from having a general tax. So you gain that tempo over a regular counter at the cost of... tempo. You lose your haste, your 7/5 general damage beater, and your draw for the next turn. If instead Hinder was, like, any relevant spell, we would have a relevant spell instead. Much better.
But a step further, the reason I don't like counters in Wanderer decks, aside from them being very poor cascades (we can run poor cascade cards, in fact we have to), is that we like to tap out and be proactive. Wanderer doesn't like to sit back and EOT stuff. We make hay while the sun is shining and beat face. It's what the card does best. Now, granted, everyone can build the deck however they so choose, whichever build fits their play style, but as far as maximizing the potential of a Wanderer deck that is not being build under certain restrictions (i.e. wanting to run a control version, or a Boundless Surge version, or tribal elementals or what have you) the counters are not very beneficial to the deck, even though they can have their moments.
Do you really think it works better as an all in stragety? What would I replace my counter spells with? more ramp and better cascade cards then? Ill play test it without counters and see how it works out.
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Do you really think it works better as an all in stragety? What would I replace my counter spells with? more ramp and better cascade cards then? Ill play test it without counters and see how it works out.
Yeah, I think it is much better that way. The thing about it is that all the ramp puts us really far ahead on mana. Then if our cascades fail, we have crazy top deck game by being able to simply cast our big draw spells and bombs. Since we have the deck loaded up to cascade well, we have a very, very high percentage of splash bomb cards. At least in my build, those are supplemented with lots of card draw to enable the engine to not lose steam.
I am not saying that we won't lose some games to the random, inconsistent nature of the beast, but in my experience we win a higher percentage by letting fate play our fortunes out than by trying to be something we are not: a control or attrition-based strategy.
I like to clarify that everything will always be based on metagames, but we don't have the resiliency to out-attrition an attrition deck. We can't out-control a control deck. But no one, barring maybe Edric, matches us out of the gates. We ramp harder and play a more explosive game than other decks. Sure, sometimes Hermit Druid decks can be more explosive. But he is 1/99. We do what we do game in and game out. And if built and tuned properly, we do it to devastating effect. With partial-paris mulligans, we get Wanderer out turn four or sooner essentially every game. Probably in the 90%+ range, with more turn two or turn three Wanderers than turn fives. This deck can be all types of nasty, and surprisingly resilient once tuned to your metagame.
Edit: I dont mean to be that guy, but for ideas for replacements, I would recommend you wander (HA!) over to my list or ambivilentduck's list (linked to and posted on my list as well) and see what tickles your fancy. In my mind you are light on ramp spells, but which route you go with the ramping depends on your meta and play style. I like the man-based ramping, as it has higher upside (interacts more strongly with Food Chain, Garruk Wildspeaker, Craterhoof Behemoth, and the haste our commander provides), but that route is less resilient and more disruptable. I don't run into that disruption often, so I go for the upside, but a lot of people do see the hate, and the rampant growth strategy provides more resiliency (see Duck's list for that).
Edit again: Your list is closer to Duck's than it is to mine, so you may like his build more. He uses a lot of cards and suites in common with you that I go a different route on. I also put more emphasis on Time Walk effects. But if you are interested in trying something more similar to what I am doing, I am of course more than happy to aid you in testing that direction!
I cant wait to playtest all of these new possibilites. Im not a huge fan of these clone effects though.
The clones are pretty mediocre if you are not running a lot of Time Walks. While there are plenty of situations in which they are very fine, those effects are very underwhelming when not chaining extra turns. Except Metamorph. That card is just the best. I could see myself cutting P. Image even with all my walk effects.
Ah, well I dont like time walk effects I can't cascade into and I don't want to pay the 35something dollars for a temporal manipulation or whatever its called from portal 3 kingdoms.
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Also Khalni Heart Expedition is not so good. I'd probably replace it with Nature's Lore, Kodama's Reach, or Rampant Growth. Yes, it gets you 2 lands, but you can't get much benefit from it until turn 4 at the earliest, assuming you have a turn 1 mana dork, and fetch land after you play it turn 2. The only reason I can see for running it is to save up landfall triggers. Honestly, it's a pretty bad card even in limited. I wouldn't run it, or Roil Elemental for that matter since it dies so easily.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Also, I think I am going to scrap my Maelstrom Wanderer EDH deck, every single person at the card shop I play at has now adapted to me playing this deck, going as far as to putting Condemn, Hinder, Spell Crumple, Spin into myth, Bant Charm, Proteus Staff. If that isn't bad enough, it's gotten to the point where even if I don't do anything or can't even cast Maelstrom Wanderer, people are scared of the possibility of him even hitting the table, so I just get entire table aggro until I die. I am literally the first one to die in every game.
"I heard that Shardless Agent, Bloodbraid Elf, and Etherium-Horn Sorcerer were pretty good."
The disconnect between 60 and 100 card magic is that in 100 card, the body on all of those guys are irrelevant. So all they are is a spell that costs less than them. If they, like Wanderer, double-cascaded, or if they had relevant in-play abilities (like all your dudes get haste), or had relevant bodies (7/5 on MW), they would be good. EHS is at least a repeatable effect, but the cmc is not ideal, and it is slow, whereas this deck tends to try to be fast and explosive.
Shardless Agent maaaay be worth a look, as he can end up being similar to Trinket Mage/Fabricate, but I don't see him panning out. Just a hunch, though, he may be a solid 3-drop for us. But he has to generate at least 2 mana/turn off of his cascade for him to be worth it as a 3cmc creature. So somewhat list-dependant. If all he can hit is Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Grim Monolith, or Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, he's probably a good addition. But my list can hit Mana Drain, Phantasmal Image, Carpet of Flowers, and Joraga Treespeaker, all of which are poor turn three cascades. And then there's Lotus Cobra, who would probably be ok at that point but not thrilling.
I wouldn't want to run any of them, I run counter spells in my build and if I ran any of those, I would most likely bump into really cheap ramp spells or counter spells, and I definitely don't want to be tucking things off a cascade trigger. I haven't experimented with a non counter spell version of the deck since I can't get cockatrice to work properly for me currently, maybe in the few coming weeks or so I can get it to work and try it out.
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8 Maelstrom Wanderer
Artifacts
0 Mana Crypt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
3 Oblivion Stone
4 Thran Dynamo
5 Gilded Lotus
7 Akroma's Memorial
Creatures
2 Lotus Cobra
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Eternal Witness
3 Trinket Mage
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Archaeomancer
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Mystic Snake
4 Oracle of Mul Daya
5 Mulldrifter
5 Zealous Conscripts
5 Seedborn Muse
5 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
6 Wurmcoil Engine
6 Consecrated Sphinx
6 Deadeye Navigator
6 Rampaging Baloths
6 Roil Elemental
7 Sylvan Primordial
7 Diluvian Primordial
7 Avenger of Zendikar
7 Molten Primordial
7 Palinchron
8 Craterhoof Behemoth
Enchantments
2 Khalni Heart Expedition
2 Sylvan Library
3 Rhystic Study
3 Food Chain
6 Mana Reflection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Wordly Tutor
2 Arcane Denial
2 Counterspell
3 Voidslime
3 Capsize
3 Chaos Warp
3 Counterflux
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Last Word
4 Plasm Capture
Planeswalker
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
5 Tezzeret The Seeker
Sorcery
3 Cultivate
4 Explosive Vegetation
4 Ranger's Path
4 Skyshroud Claim
4 Tempt with Discovery
5 Time Warp
5 Bribery
6 Recurring Insight
6 Walk the Aeons
7 Knowledge Exploitation
7 Blatant Thievery
7 Tooth and Nail
7 Temporal Mastery
Land
0 Alchemist's Refuge
0 Arid Mesa
0 Breeding Pool
0 Cascade Bluffs
0 Cavern of Souls
0 Command Tower
0 Evolving Wilds
0 Fire-Lit Thicket
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Grove of the Burnwillows
0 Hinterland Harbor
0 Island
0 Island
0 Island
0 Island
0 Island
0 Maze of Ith
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Mountain
0 Mountain
0 Reliquary Tower
0 Rootbound Crag
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Steam Vents
0 Stomping Ground
0 Strip Mine
0 Sulfur Falls
0 Terramorphic Expanse
0 Tolaria West
0 Verdant Catacombs
8 Maelstrom Wanderer
Ramp
0 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
2 Khalni Heart Expedition
2 Lotus Cobra
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Food Chain
3 Cultivate
4 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Tempt with Discovery
4 Explosive Vegetation
4 Ranger's Path
4 Skyshroud Claim
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
5 Gilded Lotus
6 Mana Reflection
7 Palinchron
Draw Power
2 Sylvan Library
3 Rhystic Study
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
5 Mulldrifter
6 Consecrated Sphinx
6 Recurring Insight
Dig // Tutor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Wordly Tutor
3 Trinket Mage
5 Tezzeret The Seeker
Utility
3 Eternal Witness
4 Archaeomancer
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
5 Seedborn Muse
5 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
6 Deadeye Navigator
2 Counterspell
2 Arcane Denial
3 Counterflux
3 Voidslime
4 Last Word
4 Plasm Capture
4 Glen Elendra ARchmage
4 Mystic Snake
Beaters / Bombs
5 Bribery
5 Zealous Conscripts
6 Rampaging Baloths
6 Roil Elemental
6 Wurmcoil Engine
7 Avenger of Zendikar
7 Diluvian Primordial
7 Molten Primordial
7 Sylvan Primordial
7 Tooth and Nail
7 Blatant Thievery
7 Knowledge Exploitation
7 Akroma's Memorial
8 Craterhoof Behemoth
Removal
3 Capsize
3 Chaos Warp
3 Oblivion Stone
Time Walks
5 Time Warp
6 Walk the Aeons
7 Temporal Mastery
Land
0 Alchemist's Refuge
0 Arid Mesa
0 Breeding Pool
0 Cascade Bluffs
0 Cavern of Souls
0 Command Tower
0 Evolving Wilds
0 Fire-Lit Thicket
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Grove of the Burnwillows
0 Hinterland Harbor
0 Island
0 Island
0 Island
0 Island
0 Island
0 Maze of Ith
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Mountain
0 Mountain
0 Reliquary Tower
0 Rootbound Crag
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Steam Vents
0 Stomping Ground
0 Strip Mine
0 Sulfur Falls
0 Terramorphic Expanse
0 Tolaria West
0 Verdant Catacombs
I would like to hear your comments and thoughts, anything I can do to make it better would be great! If I get enough input and information and maybe a little bit of help, I would really like to turn this into the official Maelstrom Wanderer Primer, or at least get some kind of honorable mention in one if there is one.
Wurmcoil Enginge: I feel like there are better creatures, somewhere.......
Palincron: He feels kind of gimmicky, untap all lands off a good cascade, crazy infinite mana combo's, but otherwise, not completely neccesary.
Craterhoof Behemoth: I can't bump into him with Maelstrom Wanderer, so he is only useful with tooth and nail for lethal. Granted he is usually good enough to hardcast by himself anyway, but I wont get a very huge buff as I don't have very many creatures on board unless I am already trying to win the game.
Diluvian Primordial: Can be insanely backbreaking when there are time walk effects in graveyards, or ramp spells, but lately I have been cascading into him and hitting absolutely nothing. I guess it depends on the meta for this guy?
Glen Elendra Archmage: Countering non creature spells when everyone's commander is a creature seems eh.... I guess there isn't anyone better, too bad mystic snake doesn't have persist.
Plasm Capture: I can't afford mana drain otherwise it would be out of there. Or maybe I would run them both?
Archaeomancer: I already have Eternal Witness in the deck who costs 1 less and is better. I just feel like running two of this effect seems like a waste of a card slot that could be put to better use.
Consecrated Sphinx: Barely survives a single pass around the table, although when it does, I usually win the game in a turn or two. Also sometimes loses me the game by painting a big target on my head.
Counterspell's: Many lists do not run counter spells of any kind, or very limited counter spells as they are bad to cascade into, this is a very tempting idea of just making it into a turbo ramp shove strategy, but I feel that Maelstrom has more durability all around with some counter spells to help shove things along.
Roil Elemental: I have yet to play a game where this guy really shines for me, most of the time he either gets spot removed at the worst time, or there aren't any creatures on board for me to steal, or they have hexproof or shroud.
Deadeye Navigator: Another one of those cards that functions really well as a combo piece, but ultimately feels like the deck could operate without him, maybe even a little better.
Recurring Insight: Feels too expensive to do anything but bump into it with Maelstrom, by the time I could cast this, I am usually casting my commander instead. Also without a Reliquary tower out, this card can really bite you in the butt. It can also be pretty hit and miss, I have drawn 30 cards off of this card before, and I have drawn 2 cards off of this card before. I have thought about running Stroke of Genius on the off chance I manage to loop infinite mana and can kill someone by making them draw their entire library.
Sensei's Divining Top, Sylvan Library, Jace, The Mind Sculptor + Maelstrom Wanderer = Draw 3 cards, put whatever 2 cards you want to cascade into back on top of your library, cast Maelstrom, bump into them.
Palincron + Deadeye Navigator
Any Creature with ETB Trigger + Deadeye Navigator
Tooth and Nail ---> Avenger of Zendikar + Craterhoof Behemoth
Food Chain + Zealous Conscripts or Molten Primordial
Any Infinite Mana Loop + Deadeye Navigator + Eternal Witness OR Archaeomancer and whatever card you want to cast infinite times.
Let me know if there is some unique interaction that I am missing!
Wish List
Spelljack
Soothsaying
Scroll Rack
Mana Drain
Cut List
Karn Liberated
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre + Kozilek, Butcher of Truth + Defense of the Heart
Animar, Soul of Elements
Time Stretch
Crystal Shard
Boundless Realms
Temple of the false God
Karn Liberated:His +1 doesn't let me choose, and a single card out of a single players hand is extremely underwhelming. While his -3 is really good, I don't feel like he impacts the board state in a way that would help me win the game, and I would never use his -14 in a commander game, that's just silly.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre: 9/10 times I would tooth and nail this guy out after the fact that Maelstrom was on board, denying his casted triggered ability and just making him a big meat stick with a fancy annihhilator trigger. While that would end games pretty abruptly, I would also lose a lot of games from having my eldrazi stolen from me and swung at me. Maelstrom is too glassy of a deck to handle being hit with annihilator triggers to survive. While he did make the deck immune to mill strategies, I haven't personally encountered a single mill strategy I was afraid of, so I felt that other creatures that could actually be cascaded into would be better for the deck.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth: Same reason as Ulamog.
Defense of the Heart: I felt this card really shined because of Ulamog and Kozilek, without them, the only two creatures I would most likely grab would be Craterhoof Behemoth and Avenger of Zendikar, I just felt that the card slot was better used by other by other options. I feel this card will probably go in and out of my deck a lot. This card is also a glorified tooth and nail on a stick, so it puts a pretty big target on your head.
Animar, Soul of Elements: I really liked this guy, but I usually don't play enough creatures, and by the time this guy gets big enough to let me play any of my bombs, people either start focusing on trying to kill me, or simply kill him instead.
Time Stretch I cut time stretch because I was tired of bottoming it when I bumped into it with Maelstrom, and almost every time I cast it, it gets counter spelled and puts a huge target on my head.
Crystal Shard I don't feel like I get enough value out of recasting my smaller creatures, and having to recast my bigger creatures made the deck kind of feel clunky, I would rather be casting more creatures than the same ones over and over again, abusing ETB triggers is more for Deadeye Navigator. While this card is good at bouncing my commander and playing him over and over again, Having to use the blue made it difficult sometimes to recast him and I just felt that food chain did an all around better job.
Boundless Realms I see so many Maelstrom lists run this! I personally dislike this card in 3 color decks. I am only running 14 basic lands and have too many cheaper effects that put basics into play. I rarely casted this card for full value and having that many lands come into play that fast puts a huge target on your head.
Temple of the false God I cut this card because I kept getting hands with 3 or 4 mana rocks, and only 3 lands with this being one of them, only to be stuck at 6 or 7 mana not being able to cast my commander because of only having this land with 2 or 3 others in play.
Other counterspells I'd run/replace is Hinder and Spelljack, simply because they work better with Wanderer than a plain old counter.
Lastly, unless you need to untap your artifacts, I'd replace Seedborn Muse with Prophet of Kruphix.
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I am running a Sensei's Divining Top.
As for Scroll Rack: I traded the only one I had away and got shafted pretty hard in the process so I don't really feel like blowing $25 on another one. Although, I really should, it goes perfect with the deck....
Soothsaying: This card seems pretty good, I usually keep my mana open to counterspell or keep some extra mana open to counterspell as I am about to go off, so this would be a great way to recycle that mana if I don't end up using it.
Crystal Ball : Would rather run Soothsaying, it just feels like a bit of an underwhelming artifact, that card slot could be put to way better use.
Cream of the Crop: A lot of my early creatures are usually 2/2's, so this would only really help me after I have cascaded out. It also says find one card, and bottom the rest, so I would only really be setting up one good thing to cascade into best case scenario, and some other random card.
How does Hinder work better with Maelstrom? Having him on the top my library is a really scary idea, anyone could fate seal me or make me mill or something and having him on the bottom of the library is doing everyone at the table a favor.
Also I have considered spelljack and Desertion as you can just counter your own commander and then cast him again for free, or have him be countered and just sit there anyway, but I find that the cheaper counter spells tend to work better, especially the un-counterable ones. I also don't own a spelljack, but I could probably get one pretty easily.
As for Prophet Of Kruphix I have considered him highly, but when I have Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir or Alchemist's Refuge on board untapping all of my artifacts and pretty much having another turn on everyone else's turn is really nice. I have not play tested with Prophet of Kruphix, but I would really like to. I do own one, what do you think I should cut for it? I like the idea of running Prophet of Kruphix and Seedborn Muse together, tapping all of my lands in response to the one trigger and flashing in as many creatures from my hand as possible, just to have them all untap again.
Hinder is better for you because it isn't necessarily a dead cascade: if you hit it on your second cascade off of Maelstrom Wanderer and anticipate that the big guy is going to eat some removal pretty soon, you can throw him on top of your lib, where you can draw him and then recast for more cascades. A normal counterspell you'd just have to not cast off the cascade (that's a valid option). Additionally, Hinder's good for countering enemy commanders.
Hmmm, you have a really valid point about Hinder. I never know what to cut though... what do you guys think I should cut? Do I have too much of any one thing? Like ramp or dig or something?
In my opinion Hinder is pretty terrible in this deck. No matter how much we try to convince ourselves, it is a terrible cascade. Hindering to the top is supposedly better than a regular counterspell because it lets us recast Wanderer next turn, without the tempo loss from having a
But a step further, the reason I don't like counters in Wanderer decks, aside from them being very poor cascades (we can run poor cascade cards, in fact we have to), is that we like to tap out and be proactive. Wanderer doesn't like to sit back and EOT stuff. We make hay while the sun is shining and beat face. It's what the card does best. Now, granted, everyone can build the deck however they so choose, whichever build fits their play style, but as far as maximizing the potential of a Wanderer deck that is not being build under certain restrictions (i.e. wanting to run a control version, or a Boundless Surge version, or tribal elementals or what have you) the counters are not very beneficial to the deck, even though they can have their moments.
Edit: I apologize to anyone if I come across as a dick or offend you. I say my opinion very matter-of-factly, and I don't mean it to sound like gospel or be degrading, I just mean to voice my difference of opinion to advance the conversation. Also, I would point out that I have heard others speak very highly of Mana Drain and Spelljack for MW counterspells, although I have not had much success with Drain in my build, and I have not tried Spelljack myself.
[EDH]
[EDH]
[EDH]
Do you really think it works better as an all in stragety? What would I replace my counter spells with? more ramp and better cascade cards then? Ill play test it without counters and see how it works out.
Yeah, I think it is much better that way. The thing about it is that all the ramp puts us really far ahead on mana. Then if our cascades fail, we have crazy top deck game by being able to simply cast our big draw spells and bombs. Since we have the deck loaded up to cascade well, we have a very, very high percentage of splash bomb cards. At least in my build, those are supplemented with lots of card draw to enable the engine to not lose steam.
I am not saying that we won't lose some games to the random, inconsistent nature of the beast, but in my experience we win a higher percentage by letting fate play our fortunes out than by trying to be something we are not: a control or attrition-based strategy.
I like to clarify that everything will always be based on metagames, but we don't have the resiliency to out-attrition an attrition deck. We can't out-control a control deck. But no one, barring maybe Edric, matches us out of the gates. We ramp harder and play a more explosive game than other decks. Sure, sometimes Hermit Druid decks can be more explosive. But he is 1/99. We do what we do game in and game out. And if built and tuned properly, we do it to devastating effect. With partial-paris mulligans, we get Wanderer out turn four or sooner essentially every game. Probably in the 90%+ range, with more turn two or turn three Wanderers than turn fives. This deck can be all types of nasty, and surprisingly resilient once tuned to your metagame.
Edit: I dont mean to be that guy, but for ideas for replacements, I would recommend you wander (HA!) over to my list or ambivilentduck's list (linked to and posted on my list as well) and see what tickles your fancy. In my mind you are light on ramp spells, but which route you go with the ramping depends on your meta and play style. I like the man-based ramping, as it has higher upside (interacts more strongly with Food Chain, Garruk Wildspeaker, Craterhoof Behemoth, and the haste our commander provides), but that route is less resilient and more disruptable. I don't run into that disruption often, so I go for the upside, but a lot of people do see the hate, and the rampant growth strategy provides more resiliency (see Duck's list for that).
Edit again: Your list is closer to Duck's than it is to mine, so you may like his build more. He uses a lot of cards and suites in common with you that I go a different route on. I also put more emphasis on Time Walk effects. But if you are interested in trying something more similar to what I am doing, I am of course more than happy to aid you in testing that direction!
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[EDH]
I will try this build out instead, see how it works.
8 Maelstrom Wanderer
Ramp
0 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
2 Khalni Heart Expedition
2 Lotus Cobra
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Coalition Relic
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Food Chain
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Cultivate
4 Hunting Wilds
4 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Tempt with Discovery
4 Explosive Vegetation
4 Ranger's Path
4 Skyshroud Claim
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
5 Gilded Lotus
6 Mana Reflection
7 Palinchron
Draw Power
2 Sylvan Library
3 Rhystic Study
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
5 Mulldrifter
6 Consecrated Sphinx
6 Recurring Insight
Dig // Tutor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Wordly Tutor
3 Trinket Mage
3 Fabricate
5 Tezzeret The Seeker
3 Eternal Witness
4 Rite of Replication
4 Archaeomancer
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
5 Seedborn Muse
5 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
6 Deadeye Navigator
Counter Spells
4 Glen Elendra ARchmage
4 Mystic Snake
4 Venser, Shaper Savant
Beaters / Bombs
5 Bribery
5 Zealous Conscripts
6 Rampaging Baloths
6 Roil Elemental
6 Wurmcoil Engine
7 Avenger of Zendikar
7 Diluvian Primordial
7 Molten Primordial
7 Sylvan Primordial
7 Tooth and Nail
7 Blatant Thievery
7 Knowledge Exploitation
7 Akroma's Memorial
8 Craterhoof Behemoth
Removal
3 Capsize
3 Chaos Warp
3 Oblivion Stone
Time Walks
5 Time Warp
6 Walk the Aeons
7 Temporal Mastery
Land
0 Alchemist's Refuge
0 Arid Mesa
0 Breeding Pool
0 Cascade Bluffs
0 Cavern of Souls
0 Command Tower
0 Evolving Wilds
0 Fire-Lit Thicket
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Grove of the Burnwillows
0 Hinterland Harbor
0 Island
0 Island
0 Island
0 Island
0 Island
0 Maze of Ith
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Mountain
0 Mountain
0 Reliquary Tower
0 Rootbound Crag
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Steam Vents
0 Stomping Ground
0 Strip Mine
0 Sulfur Falls
0 Terramorphic Expanse
0 Tolaria West
0 Verdant Catacombs
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=466777
There ya go
[EDH]
[EDH]
[EDH]
The clones are pretty mediocre if you are not running a lot of Time Walks. While there are plenty of situations in which they are very fine, those effects are very underwhelming when not chaining extra turns. Except Metamorph. That card is just the best. I could see myself cutting P. Image even with all my walk effects.
[EDH]
[EDH]
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Also Khalni Heart Expedition is not so good. I'd probably replace it with Nature's Lore, Kodama's Reach, or Rampant Growth. Yes, it gets you 2 lands, but you can't get much benefit from it until turn 4 at the earliest, assuming you have a turn 1 mana dork, and fetch land after you play it turn 2. The only reason I can see for running it is to save up landfall triggers. Honestly, it's a pretty bad card even in limited. I wouldn't run it, or Roil Elemental for that matter since it dies so easily.
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I don't really want to bump into the lower casting spells off of Shardless Agent, Bloodbraid Elf, and Etherium-HornSorcerer.
Also, Khalni Heart Expedition is amazing, for 2 mana, you are getting 2 basic lands into play tapped, sure it is a bit slow, but it never not gets you lands, and I have never had anyone ever blow it up, also when I can t1 land, t1 sol ring or mana crypt, t2 Khalni heart expedition, t3 land and play any of the following: Hunting Wilds, Rangers Path, Skyshroud claim, Explosive Vegetation, on t3 I already have between 6-7 lands with a sol ring out, letting me topdeck or play another land and then t4 Maelstrom Wanderer. This is a pretty good thing to do.
Also, I think I am going to scrap my Maelstrom Wanderer EDH deck, every single person at the card shop I play at has now adapted to me playing this deck, going as far as to putting Condemn, Hinder, Spell Crumple, Spin into myth, Bant Charm, Proteus Staff. If that isn't bad enough, it's gotten to the point where even if I don't do anything or can't even cast Maelstrom Wanderer, people are scared of the possibility of him even hitting the table, so I just get entire table aggro until I die. I am literally the first one to die in every game.
The disconnect between 60 and 100 card magic is that in 100 card, the body on all of those guys are irrelevant. So all they are is a spell that costs less than them. If they, like Wanderer, double-cascaded, or if they had relevant in-play abilities (like all your dudes get haste), or had relevant bodies (7/5 on MW), they would be good. EHS is at least a repeatable effect, but the cmc is not ideal, and it is slow, whereas this deck tends to try to be fast and explosive.
Shardless Agent maaaay be worth a look, as he can end up being similar to Trinket Mage/Fabricate, but I don't see him panning out. Just a hunch, though, he may be a solid 3-drop for us. But he has to generate at least 2 mana/turn off of his cascade for him to be worth it as a 3cmc creature. So somewhat list-dependant. If all he can hit is Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Grim Monolith, or Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, he's probably a good addition. But my list can hit Mana Drain, Phantasmal Image, Carpet of Flowers, and Joraga Treespeaker, all of which are poor turn three cascades. And then there's Lotus Cobra, who would probably be ok at that point but not thrilling.
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[EDH]
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