Apocalypse: Exiles all permanents but you lose your hand. Have to already have set Jhoira off with bombs, and then there isn't much coming back if things go wrong.
Slow MotionSuggested by Mockingbird: Repeatable creature removal if you get the stax environment set up. Can do a lot of work, but it only targets creatures, they can just pay the cost every turn, and having to pay for it multiple times makes me feel the card is too narrow.
Gamble: The red tutor, should be in here. Let's make room
Time Warp: Not as powerful as Time Stretch but cheaper so it can be used without cheating it out. Don't know if there are enough situations it would be useful to hardcast in.
Sword of Feast and Famine: Have to have a creature and hit someone with it, but they have to discard a card and you untap your lands. Great when Winter Orb/Static Orb effects are on the field.
Feel free to comment, I'm especially interested in hearing opinions of players who play with/against powerful decks to see how this deck shapes up.
I don't play hardcore much but IMO I feel the ability to turn 1 and 2 dig for land and answers is very useful even later in the game. It's also quite cheap which I appreciate. Maybe Compulsion is worth a spot, I took it out earlier. Though this deck is turning more into a wipe-everything-later deck so maybe more expensive draw would be better. Maybe Wheel of Fortune effects are worth it too, but I really don't like everyone else drawing 7.
Deck has had a ton of revision: better win-cons, time counter abuse, better stax cards, more efficient spells.
Some explanation for questionable cards:
Piracy: In case you did not realize this card does not force opponents to give you their mana (unlike Drain Power). They can tap out as much as they want before the spell resolves to keep you away from their mana. This spell in this list is more than anything used to protect Jhoira and win-con's so they can resolve (Drain Power only shuts down 1 opponent, I want the capability to shut down all opponents). [Does Piracy only allow you to take opponents mana to pay for declared spells?]
Propaganda: Helps you survive the archenemy phase when your deck starts winning. Maybe.
Utvara Hellkite: Needed another win-con, and this is the best I found. Am I missing something better?
What this deck needs more of though is Enchantments and Planeswalkers because Izzet tends to have trouble removing them as threats, meaning you should play them. Consequently, in terms of crossing over with the Stax side of the strategy, Stax plays well with Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Ral Zarek. Other cards to consider is Rhystic Study and Thought Reflection in terms of draw power. Also, Slow Motion works wonders in STAX.
I'll have to give it serious thought before I can make comprehensive suggestions though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
What this deck needs more of though is Enchantments and Planeswalkers because Izzet tends to have trouble removing them as threats, meaning you should play them. Consequently, in terms of crossing over with the Stax side of the strategy, Stax plays well with Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Ral Zarek. Other cards to consider is Rhystic Study and Thought Reflection in terms of draw power. Also, Slow Motion works wonders in STAX.
I'll have to give it serious thought before I can make comprehensive suggestions though.
If I could afford the eldrazi I would put them in.
Mindsculptor and Karn are way too slow for killing multiple players. Ral doesn't keep their permanents tapped. Tamiyo is also lackluster in multiplayer but the ult is good.
Rhystic Study is probably a good idea. Thought Reflection doesn't do enough to me. Slow Motion is also too slow for me, and it needs to be constantly re-cast which is a hassle.
I don't see the logic in "My colors can't remove them so I should play them" if you wouldn't mind explaining.
If I could afford the eldrazi I would put them in.
Mindsculptor and Karn are way too slow for killing multiple players. Ral doesn't keep their permanents tapped. Tamiyo is also lackluster in multiplayer but the ult is good.
Eldrazi: I make suggestions based on how they work in the deck.
Mind Sculptor and Karn: STAX is not about killing players quickly. STAX is about slowing the game down so far that your opponent's cannot dig themselves. If you are looking to kill players quickly then you don't need to play Jhoira as a STAX deck. If that's the case, what you do is play Jhoira as a ramp deck to cast an early game Decree of Annihilation and suspend something like Blightsteel right before you do it.
Ral and Tamiyo: They may be lackluster in multiplayer, but they are not lackluster in STAX. Keeping opponents things tapped is important because you need your opponent from untapping as few things as possible while an effect like Winter Orb is out. And with Ral specifically, you want his untap ability far more than his tap ability.
Rhystic Study is probably a good idea. Thought Reflection doesn't do enough to me. Slow Motion is also too slow for me, and it needs to be constantly re-cast which is a hassle.
Fair enough on Thought Reflection, but try out Slow Motion. It's a STAX worthy card; I'm speaking for experience of it used against me.
But once again, I think you are misunderstanding the STAX primary win condition: make your opponents' rage quit. If your playing STAX, there is nothing quick about what you plan to do to your opponents. You will effectively win by turn 5, but anyone that plays out STAX to the end will be in a long drawn out game.
I don't see the logic in "My colors can't remove them so I should play them" if you wouldn't mind explaining.
What is there to explain? You are playing mass removal and you want things that survive mass removal. What survives red mass removal? Enchantments and Planewalkers.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Aftershock is nice but it's targeted destruction and of only one permanent. I want more from a card.
All is Dust used to be on here. I needed more room for "destroy creatures & lands" effects so it got the boot. Maybe it needs to be put back. What would you take out?
Eldrazi: I make suggestions based on how they work in the deck.
Mind Sculptor and Karn: STAX is not about killing players quickly. STAX is about slowing the game down so far that your opponent's cannot dig themselves. If you are looking to kill players quickly then you don't need to play Jhoira as a STAX deck. If that's the case, what you do is play Jhoira as a ramp deck to cast an early game Decree of Annihilation and suspend something like Blightsteel right before you do it.
Ral and Tamiyo: They may be lackluster in multiplayer, but they are not lackluster in STAX. Keeping opponents things tapped is important because you need your opponent from untapping as few things as possible while an effect like Winter Orb is out. And with Ral specifically, you want his untap ability far more than his tap ability.
Fair enough on Thought Reflection, but try out Slow Motion. It's a STAX worthy card; I'm speaking for experience of it used against me.
But once again, I think you are misunderstanding the STAX primary win condition: make your opponents' rage quit. If your playing STAX, there is nothing quick about what you plan to do to your opponents. You will effectively win by turn 5, but anyone that plays out STAX to the end will be in a long drawn out game.
What is there to explain? You are playing mass removal and you want things that survive mass removal. What survives red mass removal? Enchantments and Planewalkers.
Yup I agree with you on the Eldrazi. Hmm I might as well put together an optimized list along with a personal list.
I figure that if I can kill other players quickly I might as well; not every game goes smoothly and sometimes you will barely have enough time to kill opponents and sometimes you wont be able to get a stax lock going. In both of those cases I like having the ability to cheat things into play.
The objective of this deck is to prevent all of the opponents from ramping into their combos/bombs while utilizing the inexpensive power of Jhoira to win with everyone's limited resources. If I don't play stax then sure I'll get bombs out consistently but so will all the other players. The winner results from politics and chance rather than from capitalizing on other decks' greed.
Ehh I mean yes Tamiyo and Ral do something but they need a complete stax setup to work their magic. I would rather play more bombs and protection to utilize Jhoira rather than drawing a situationally good card. But I'm considering it. What would you take out for them?
While many Stax decks are designed to win by completely shutting down the field, I feel having the power of Jhoira gives the deck even more power that allows it to win in more sub-optimal conditions.
Yes enchantments and plansewalkers do survive the board wipes I pack. I've got enchantments I'm utilizing and we're discussing the planeswalkers. Are there other enchantments you recommend?
Deck Goals
Optimized Deck
Under construction
Personal Deck
tappedout
1x Brainstorm
1x Cerebral Vortex
1x Chaos Warp
1x Counterspell
1x Delay
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Fury Charm
1x Hinder
1x Long-Term Plans
1x Mnemonic Nexus
1x Muddle the Mixture
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Sunder
1x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Timecrafting
1x Tolarian Winds
Sorcery (17)
1x Ancestral Vision
1x Blasphemous Act
1x Call to Mind
1x Decree of Annihilation
1x Devastation
1x Fabricate
1x Jokulhaups
1x Molten Psyche
1x Mystic Retrieval
1x Obliterate
1x Piracy
1x Ponder
1x Preordain
1x Thoughts of Ruin
1x Time Stretch
1x Vandalblast
1x Winds of Change
1x Artisan of Kozilek
1x Drift of Phantasms
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Goblin Welder
1x It That Betrays
1x Ixidron
1x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1x Keldon Firebombers
1x Lighthouse Chronologist
1x Pathrazer of Ulamog
1x Ulamog's Crusher
1x Utvara Hellkite
1x Whirlpool Warrior
Artifact (11)
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Coalition Relic
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Izzet Keyrune
1x Izzet Signet
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Smokestack
1x Static Orb
1x Winter Orb
1x Land Equilibrium
1x Mana Breach
1x Mana Vortex
1x Omniscience
1x Propaganda
1x Rising Waters
Planeswalker (1)
1x Jace Beleren
1x Artisan of Kozilek
1x It That Betrays
1x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1x Lighthouse Chronologist
1x Pathrazer of Ulamog
1x Ulamog's Crusher
1x Utvara Hellkite
1x Omniscience
Card Selection
1x Brainstorm
1x Tolarian Winds
1x Whirlpool Warrior
1x Molten Psyche
1x Ponder
1x Preordain
1x Winds of Change
Card Advantage
1x Cerebral Vortex
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Ancestral Vision
1x Jace Beleren
Targeted Removal
1x Chaos Warp
1x Vandalblast
Counterspells
1x Counterspell
1x Delay
1x Hinder
1x Muddle the Mixture
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Ixidron
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Blasphemous Act
1x Decree of Annihilation
1x Devastation
1x Jokulhaups
1x Obliterate
Land Destruction
1x Sunder
1x Keldon Firebombers
1x Decree of Annihilation
1x Devastation
1x Jokulhaups
1x Obliterate
1x Thoughts of Ruin
Stax Effects
1x Smokestack
1x Static Orb
1x Winter Orb
1x Land Equilibrium
1x Mana Breach
1x Mana Vortex
1x Rising Waters
Tutors
1x Long-Term Plans
1x Muddle the Mixture
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Drift of Phantasms
1x Fabricate
1x Goblin Welder
1x Call to Mind
1x Mystic Retrieval
Graveyard Hate
1x Mnemonic Nexus
1x Relic of Progenitus
Support
1x Fury Charm
1x Timecrafting
1x Piracy
1x Propaganda
Mana Rocks
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Coalition Relic
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Izzet Keyrune
1x Izzet Signet
Maybeboard
Aura Flux/Aura Thief: Enchantment "destruction" (a problematic permanent type in these colors)
Glen Elendra Archmage: Uncounterable (mostly) protection for Jhoira and win-cons
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs: Another Propaganda
Leyline of Anticipation: Helps get Jhoira/board wipes/other spells out around interruption
Rift Elemental/Shivan Sand-Mage/Timebender: More suspend helpers
Mogg Infestation: An interesting and ok board-wipe
Wildfire: Destroys smaller creatures and destroys land, can be good in the right meta.
Rhystic Study: A stupid card I always forget about; even more free cards with stax effects in play.
Twincast/Reverberate: Steal value from other decks, or counterspell for 2 mana.
Dispel: 1 mana protection
Apocalypse: Exiles all permanents but you lose your hand. Have to already have set Jhoira off with bombs, and then there isn't much coming back if things go wrong.
Slow Motion Suggested by Mockingbird: Repeatable creature removal if you get the stax environment set up. Can do a lot of work, but it only targets creatures, they can just pay the cost every turn, and having to pay for it multiple times makes me feel the card is too narrow.
Gamble: The red tutor, should be in here. Let's make room
Time Warp: Not as powerful as Time Stretch but cheaper so it can be used without cheating it out. Don't know if there are enough situations it would be useful to hardcast in.
Sword of Feast and Famine: Have to have a creature and hit someone with it, but they have to discard a card and you untap your lands. Great when Winter Orb/Static Orb effects are on the field.
Feel free to comment, I'm especially interested in hearing opinions of players who play with/against powerful decks to see how this deck shapes up.
WUBRGReaper KingGRBUW 5c Blink [Less Competitive]
WBEvershrikeBW Orzhov Enchantments [Less Competitive]
GIwamori of the Open FistG Green Smash [Less Competitive]
RGWUInk-Treader NephilimUWGR Draw Too Many Cards [More Competitive]
URJhoira of the GhituRU Izzet Stax [More Competitive]
URGRiku of Two ReflectionsGRU Ceta Dredge [More Competitive]
Modern
RUGBNightshiftBGUR Like Scapeshift but bad
Wow, cant believe I've missed that lately lol, thanks.
WUBRGReaper KingGRBUW 5c Blink [Less Competitive]
WBEvershrikeBW Orzhov Enchantments [Less Competitive]
GIwamori of the Open FistG Green Smash [Less Competitive]
RGWUInk-Treader NephilimUWGR Draw Too Many Cards [More Competitive]
URJhoira of the GhituRU Izzet Stax [More Competitive]
URGRiku of Two ReflectionsGRU Ceta Dredge [More Competitive]
Modern
RUGBNightshiftBGUR Like Scapeshift but bad
The little card filtering are not as useful here as in a combo deck. Straight draw is usually better.
I don't play hardcore much but IMO I feel the ability to turn 1 and 2 dig for land and answers is very useful even later in the game. It's also quite cheap which I appreciate. Maybe Compulsion is worth a spot, I took it out earlier. Though this deck is turning more into a wipe-everything-later deck so maybe more expensive draw would be better. Maybe Wheel of Fortune effects are worth it too, but I really don't like everyone else drawing 7.
WUBRGReaper KingGRBUW 5c Blink [Less Competitive]
WBEvershrikeBW Orzhov Enchantments [Less Competitive]
GIwamori of the Open FistG Green Smash [Less Competitive]
RGWUInk-Treader NephilimUWGR Draw Too Many Cards [More Competitive]
URJhoira of the GhituRU Izzet Stax [More Competitive]
URGRiku of Two ReflectionsGRU Ceta Dredge [More Competitive]
Modern
RUGBNightshiftBGUR Like Scapeshift but bad
Some explanation for questionable cards:
Piracy: In case you did not realize this card does not force opponents to give you their mana (unlike Drain Power). They can tap out as much as they want before the spell resolves to keep you away from their mana. This spell in this list is more than anything used to protect Jhoira and win-con's so they can resolve (Drain Power only shuts down 1 opponent, I want the capability to shut down all opponents). [Does Piracy only allow you to take opponents mana to pay for declared spells?]
Propaganda: Helps you survive the archenemy phase when your deck starts winning. Maybe.
Utvara Hellkite: Needed another win-con, and this is the best I found. Am I missing something better?
WUBRGReaper KingGRBUW 5c Blink [Less Competitive]
WBEvershrikeBW Orzhov Enchantments [Less Competitive]
GIwamori of the Open FistG Green Smash [Less Competitive]
RGWUInk-Treader NephilimUWGR Draw Too Many Cards [More Competitive]
URJhoira of the GhituRU Izzet Stax [More Competitive]
URGRiku of Two ReflectionsGRU Ceta Dredge [More Competitive]
Modern
RUGBNightshiftBGUR Like Scapeshift but bad
In Jhoira, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Darksteel Colossus, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and Karn Liberated make great win cons.
What this deck needs more of though is Enchantments and Planeswalkers because Izzet tends to have trouble removing them as threats, meaning you should play them. Consequently, in terms of crossing over with the Stax side of the strategy, Stax plays well with Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Ral Zarek. Other cards to consider is Rhystic Study and Thought Reflection in terms of draw power. Also, Slow Motion works wonders in STAX.
I'll have to give it serious thought before I can make comprehensive suggestions though.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
If I could afford the eldrazi I would put them in.
Mindsculptor and Karn are way too slow for killing multiple players. Ral doesn't keep their permanents tapped. Tamiyo is also lackluster in multiplayer but the ult is good.
Rhystic Study is probably a good idea. Thought Reflection doesn't do enough to me. Slow Motion is also too slow for me, and it needs to be constantly re-cast which is a hassle.
I don't see the logic in "My colors can't remove them so I should play them" if you wouldn't mind explaining.
WUBRGReaper KingGRBUW 5c Blink [Less Competitive]
WBEvershrikeBW Orzhov Enchantments [Less Competitive]
GIwamori of the Open FistG Green Smash [Less Competitive]
RGWUInk-Treader NephilimUWGR Draw Too Many Cards [More Competitive]
URJhoira of the GhituRU Izzet Stax [More Competitive]
URGRiku of Two ReflectionsGRU Ceta Dredge [More Competitive]
Modern
RUGBNightshiftBGUR Like Scapeshift but bad
And All is Dust? =)
Neheb
Marath
Yidris
Sharuum
Yidris
Mind Sculptor and Karn: STAX is not about killing players quickly. STAX is about slowing the game down so far that your opponent's cannot dig themselves. If you are looking to kill players quickly then you don't need to play Jhoira as a STAX deck. If that's the case, what you do is play Jhoira as a ramp deck to cast an early game Decree of Annihilation and suspend something like Blightsteel right before you do it.
Ral and Tamiyo: They may be lackluster in multiplayer, but they are not lackluster in STAX. Keeping opponents things tapped is important because you need your opponent from untapping as few things as possible while an effect like Winter Orb is out. And with Ral specifically, you want his untap ability far more than his tap ability.
Fair enough on Thought Reflection, but try out Slow Motion. It's a STAX worthy card; I'm speaking for experience of it used against me.
But once again, I think you are misunderstanding the STAX primary win condition: make your opponents' rage quit. If your playing STAX, there is nothing quick about what you plan to do to your opponents. You will effectively win by turn 5, but anyone that plays out STAX to the end will be in a long drawn out game.
What is there to explain? You are playing mass removal and you want things that survive mass removal. What survives red mass removal? Enchantments and Planewalkers.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Aftershock is nice but it's targeted destruction and of only one permanent. I want more from a card.
All is Dust used to be on here. I needed more room for "destroy creatures & lands" effects so it got the boot. Maybe it needs to be put back. What would you take out?
Yup I agree with you on the Eldrazi. Hmm I might as well put together an optimized list along with a personal list.
I figure that if I can kill other players quickly I might as well; not every game goes smoothly and sometimes you will barely have enough time to kill opponents and sometimes you wont be able to get a stax lock going. In both of those cases I like having the ability to cheat things into play.
The objective of this deck is to prevent all of the opponents from ramping into their combos/bombs while utilizing the inexpensive power of Jhoira to win with everyone's limited resources. If I don't play stax then sure I'll get bombs out consistently but so will all the other players. The winner results from politics and chance rather than from capitalizing on other decks' greed.
Ehh I mean yes Tamiyo and Ral do something but they need a complete stax setup to work their magic. I would rather play more bombs and protection to utilize Jhoira rather than drawing a situationally good card. But I'm considering it. What would you take out for them?
While many Stax decks are designed to win by completely shutting down the field, I feel having the power of Jhoira gives the deck even more power that allows it to win in more sub-optimal conditions.
Yes enchantments and plansewalkers do survive the board wipes I pack. I've got enchantments I'm utilizing and we're discussing the planeswalkers. Are there other enchantments you recommend?
WUBRGReaper KingGRBUW 5c Blink [Less Competitive]
WBEvershrikeBW Orzhov Enchantments [Less Competitive]
GIwamori of the Open FistG Green Smash [Less Competitive]
RGWUInk-Treader NephilimUWGR Draw Too Many Cards [More Competitive]
URJhoira of the GhituRU Izzet Stax [More Competitive]
URGRiku of Two ReflectionsGRU Ceta Dredge [More Competitive]
Modern
RUGBNightshiftBGUR Like Scapeshift but bad