Liliana was my first serious commander deck. I've played this deck for quite awhile and have it nearly where I want it to be, but I could use some help making a few final tweaks.
Here is the list I'm currently on. Explanations on cards I'm looking to fit in and cut will follow.
Filth - I'm not sure how necessary this card is because I usually end up killing the whole table at once with Exsanguinate or recurring a Gray Merchant or Kokusho, but every now and then I will end up with a sizeable zombie army from a Grave Titan or Kalitas and with Urborg in play and Filth in the graveyard the evasion is just as effective at ending the game.
Nirkana Revenant - This deck can be very mana hungry so I'm never opposed to more mana enhancers, I'm just not sure if I want another 6 drop in the deck.
Torment of Hailfire - I'm looking for feedback on this card. I wouldn't mind having another big finisher, but every time I think about how the opponents get to make the choice of what happens to them it just doesn't seem like it will be as effective as I would like.
Liliana of the Dark Realms - I ran this card for a little bit before the planeswalker rule changed and I really liked it except for the fact that it was a bit awkward with a Liliana planeswalker as my commander. With the new rule in effect I wouldn't mind slotting her back in.
Black Market - I'm looking for feedback on this card as well. It seems like it could be pretty powerful since my deck excels at killing things, but sometimes I feel like it may be too slow at 5 mana. How has it performed for those who have used it?
Cards I'm considering cutting...
Butcher of Malakir - I already run Dictate of Erebos and Grave Pact so I'm not sure I need a 3rd card that does the same thing. At 7 mana it's pretty expensive, but what keeps it around is that it is a nice early reanimation target.
Contamination - This card is really powerful and can completely lock people out of the game, but I'm not always prepared to pay its upkeep. Also, sometimes it's a major feels bad card which is probably something I'll have to make the final call on, but from a pure power and synergy standpoint, what do you guys think?
Triskelion - I run this card simply to end games that get out of control. I usually don't go for the Tri/Mike combo right away, but it is there if someone gains infinite life or has a board state that is too tough to overcome. I really hate top decking this card though, because it's pretty awful on its own.
Grave Betrayal - This is a card I actually haven't cast too much. It's been in the deck a while, but I have never tutored for it and I rarely draw it so I can't say how effective it is. It's expensive, but it seems very powerful. The argument against the card is that it doesn't recur my own creatures which is where the true power of my deck lies. A lot of my creatures have powerful ETB effects and Grave Betrayal doesn't synergize with that at all. Taking my opponents creatures after a Damnation is great, but I'm not sure it's necessary.
Any and all feed back is appreciated! Maybe there are other weaker cards in the deck that could be pulled that I'm overlooking and I'd like to hear about those too.
Without looking at it in much depth (because I'm on my phone and will revisit later), I would definitely slot in Torment of Hailfire. You can put it in pretty much any one of those slots you're considering cutting, too.
So continuing my thoughts from earlier, Torment shines best in a deck with a lot of discard and wipes. GloriousGoose's Erebos deck is such a thing, but it's not reanimation-based and actually has few creatures. Without the extra means to limit the choices they have Torment of Hailfire could still be a relatively devastating spell if you have decent mana to pour in. It just seemed like the best of the five you wanted to find slots for.
Can you tell us more about what where you'd like this deck to end up? Does Kalitas do good work in making zombies,
or does Grave Titan do most of that works?Regarding your cuts:
If you're reliant on the Pact effects, then you should consider keeping Butcher of Malakir since it's a reanimation deck. He's easier to get back then either of the enchantments.
Contamination is the kind of card that, if I ran it in a deck, I would deploy when it would most protect what I wanted to do, such as comboing off. I probably wouldn't play it just to oppress the table. You could cut it or leave it in, really, but that's going to have more to do with how you want to play.
Triskelion is mainly up to you whether you want to break up the combo or not. There are, of course, other combos you could try out for ending games where the cards on their own don't feel so useless. But it's also not bad having discard fodder.
Grave Betrayal is the cut I most agree with. It doesn't play well with Kalitas or Mike. Being a reanimation deck, It that Betrays could work better, but also doesn't work so great with those two (because Mike's Undying returns them to owner's control). It does, however, work well with Torment of Hailfire. You could also just replace it with Rise of the Dark Realms if what you want is a backup to Liliana's emblem, but that requires some buildup of creature cards to be more game-ending (unless you happen to reanimate combo pieces).
Regarding what you want to add:
Filth would be a fine addition if combat were your primary approach to winning, but it seems like life draing/leeching is. Entombing it for a surprise alpha strike could provide another way to close out a game.
Nirkana Revenant would be a fine addition, especially with a couple X spells already and a possible third. Also it's a creature for reanimation.
I've had my doubts about running Liliana of the Dark Realms, and my Chainer deck loves lots of swamps. If combat is viable, then Sword of the Animist could be better, even if you're paying 2 every turn to attach it to a zombie that gets blocked.
Black Market really depends on: 1. how quickly after it resolves you'd get enough counters on it to make it worth it; 2. how much you need extra mana only during your first main phase. Could be fine with the X sorceries, but Nirkana Revenant or Doubling Cube could be more flexible.
A few other cards I thought of for your consideration: Corpse Dance — Narrower in its targeting, but you might have enough sacrifice outlets to avoid the exile. Some of your reanimation seemed one-off.
It was suggested recently to me to switch Harvester of Souls for Smothering Abomination. Could run into the same problem you have with Contamination because you have only a partial stax package, but it draws off all creature sacrifice, not just nontoken. Grim Haruspex is good, too, for drawing off your own nontokens dying.
Hey all, if I can just chime in a bit: Ophiomancer is great for producing sacrifice fodder. However, if you control a snake at the beginning of your upkeep, you can't get a new snake from Ophiomancer if you sacrifice that snake.
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So continuing my thoughts from earlier, Torment shines best in a deck with a lot of discard and wipes. GloriousGoose's Erebos deck is such a thing, but it's not reanimation-based and actually has few creatures. Without the extra means to limit the choices they have Torment of Hailfire could still be a relatively devastating spell if you have decent mana to pour in. It just seemed like the best of the five you wanted to find slots for.
Can you tell us more about what where you'd like this deck to end up? Does Kalitas do good work in making zombies,
or does Grave Titan do most of that works?Regarding your cuts:
If you're reliant on the Pact effects, then you should consider keeping Butcher of Malakir since it's a reanimation deck. He's easier to get back then either of the enchantments.
Contamination is the kind of card that, if I ran it in a deck, I would deploy when it would most protect what I wanted to do, such as comboing off. I probably wouldn't play it just to oppress the table. You could cut it or leave it in, really, but that's going to have more to do with how you want to play.
Triskelion is mainly up to you whether you want to break up the combo or not. There are, of course, other combos you could try out for ending games where the cards on their own don't feel so useless. But it's also not bad having discard fodder.
Grave Betrayal is the cut I most agree with. It doesn't play well with Kalitas or Mike. Being a reanimation deck, It that Betrays could work better, but also doesn't work so great with those two (because Mike's Undying returns them to owner's control). It does, however, work well with Torment of Hailfire. You could also just replace it with Rise of the Dark Realms if what you want is a backup to Liliana's emblem, but that requires some buildup of creature cards to be more game-ending (unless you happen to reanimate combo pieces).
Regarding what you want to add:
Filth would be a fine addition if combat were your primary approach to winning, but it seems like life draing/leeching is. Entombing it for a surprise alpha strike could provide another way to close out a game.
Nirkana Revenant would be a fine addition, especially with a couple X spells already and a possible third. Also it's a creature for reanimation.
I've had my doubts about running Liliana of the Dark Realms, and my Chainer deck loves lots of swamps. If combat is viable, then Sword of the Animist could be better, even if you're paying 2 every turn to attach it to a zombie that gets blocked.
Black Market really depends on: 1. how quickly after it resolves you'd get enough counters on it to make it worth it; 2. how much you need extra mana only during your first main phase. Could be fine with the X sorceries, but Nirkana Revenant or Doubling Cube could be more flexible.
A few other cards I thought of for your consideration: Corpse Dance — Narrower in its targeting, but you might have enough sacrifice outlets to avoid the exile. Some of your reanimation seemed one-off.
It was suggested recently to me to switch Harvester of Souls for Smothering Abomination. Could run into the same problem you have with Contamination because you have only a partial stax package, but it draws off all creature sacrifice, not just nontoken. Grim Haruspex is good, too, for drawing off your own nontokens dying.
As far as where I want the deck to end up, I'm actually pretty happy with how it performs. The issues I have with the deck are sometimes my early game is slow. The deck can be very mana hungry, which I don't have a problem with, but it just means that sometimes it doesn't start clicking until 5 or 6 turns in. The other issue is that sometimes the deck just durdles. It'll do a fine job at keeping the board clear, but I just won't see any type of finisher, which leads me to believe fitting in cards like Smother Abomination or Grim Haruspex, like you suggest, may be the way to go.
Kalitas and Grave Titan both do a great job at creating zombies and they both do it on a different axis. Kalitas doesn't require a whole lot of my hand to build up an army. He will do his thing when opponents attack each other, when I board wipe, or use one of my sac outlets with a pact in play. Grave Titan is great on offense, but if I have resources in my hand, I can really abuse him with sac outlets and reanimation spells.
Contamination is getting cut. The reasons you state for running it make sense and I'm not really comboing with this deck. It generally starts to snowball out of control rather than setting up one critical turn.
I actually ran Rise of the Dark Realms for awhile and it never really did quite as much as I wanted it to for its mana cost. Grave Betrayal is playing out the same way so I agree with you that it should probably get cut.
I'm still torn about Filth, because I do tend to win with draining and recurring etb effects. When I build up an army of zombies with Grave Titan or Kalitas they usually just stall the game long enough for me to drain people out, but with a Filth in the yard I may be able to end the game with combat. I'll have to pay more attention to board states next time I end up in that situation.
I could probably skip Liliana of the Dark Realms. The swamps are nice, but she doesn't really effect the board and if I get her out early, which would be ideal, I don't always have the best early game defense set up to protect her. With Heretical Healer I get to choose when to flip her, which usually means I have all my mana at my disposal to protect her when she turns into a planeswalker.
I think I like the suggestion of Nirkana Revenant over Black Market. There is only a 1 cmc difference between the two and I can leverage creatures much better than enchantments.
I may consider switching back to Smothering Abomination over Harvester. I do like the lower cmc and once I get a board state established I find that I'm sacrificing my own creatures more than I'm attacking my opponents. And at the very worst, Abomination will at least replace itself if I have to sac itself to its upkeep. If I find that Abomination's upkeep is a hinderance then I may consider Grim Haruspex.
Ophiomancer is a nice consideration too. I'm not sure where I'd fit him in, but I do like the extra body to leverage each turn, even if just as a defensive deathtoucher.
For sweepers, I could consider cutting Black Sun's Zenith or Mutilate for All is Dust or Nevinyrral's Disk. Black Sun is usually at least as mana intensive as All is Dust and they both handle indestructible creatures as well as everything else All is Dust hits. I guess it's a trade off between destroying artifacts vs. planeswalkers with Disk vs. Dust. I do like that dust doesn't need to untap to do what it does.
As far as where I want the deck to end up, I'm actually pretty happy with how it performs. The issues I have with the deck are sometimes my early game is slow. The deck can be very mana hungry, which I don't have a problem with, but it just means that sometimes it doesn't start clicking until 5 or 6 turns in. The other issue is that sometimes the deck just durdles. It'll do a fine job at keeping the board clear, but I just won't see any type of finisher, which leads me to believe fitting in cards like Smother Abomination or Grim Haruspex, like you suggest, may be the way to go.
My MBC deck takes a minute to get rolling, too. My recursion is much more permanent-based, so Disciple of Bolas is also good card draw. And while more card draw doesn't hurt, neither does holding a tutor for later.
Kalitas and Grave Titan both do a great job at creating zombies and they both do it on a different axis. Kalitas doesn't require a whole lot of my hand to build up an army. He will do his thing when opponents attack each other, when I board wipe, or use one of my sac outlets with a pact in play. Grave Titan is great on offense, but if I have resources in my hand, I can really abuse him with sac outlets and reanimation spells.
Contamination is getting cut. The reasons you state for running it make sense and I'm not really comboing with this deck. It generally starts to snowball out of control rather than setting up one critical turn.
Sounds good. I like stealing my opponents' creatures, so Kalitas has always been something I just couldn't use.
I actually ran Rise of the Dark Realms for awhile and it never really did quite as much as I wanted it to for its mana cost. Grave Betrayal is playing out the same way so I agree with you that it should probably get cut.
Rise definitely needs a bunch of good stuff in the graveyards, which means milling, discard, Life's Finale, etc.
I'm still torn about Filth, because I do tend to win with draining and recurring etb effects. When I build up an army of zombies with Grave Titan or Kalitas they usually just stall the game long enough for me to drain people out, but with a Filth in the yard I may be able to end the game with combat. I'll have to pay more attention to board states next time I end up in that situation.[/c]There are other options for evasion, too. Eldrazi Monument for flying (but it also requires sacrifice), Graf Harvest for menace, Cover of Darkness for fear, etc. Dauthi Embrace would be much more mana intensive for tokens, but allows you to manipulate combat. Wipes are something I use, too, since I typically reanimate just before my turn to avoid summoning sickness.
[quote from="Driemer84 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/785475-liliana-heretical-healer-help?comment=5"]Ophiomancer is a nice consideration too. I'm not sure where I'd fit him in, but I do like the extra body to leverage each turn, even if just as a defensive deathtoucher.
For sweepers, I could consider cutting Black Sun's Zenith or Mutilate for All is Dust or Nevinyrral's Disk. Black Sun is usually at least as mana intensive as All is Dust and they both handle indestructible creatures as well as everything else All is Dust hits. I guess it's a trade off between destroying artifacts vs. planeswalkers with Disk vs. Dust. I do like that dust doesn't need to untap to do what it does.
Yeah, right now I'm running Ugin, the Spirit Dragon to see how I like that compared to All is Dust for dealing with enchantments. Oblivion Stone is currently my only solution for artifacts other than some spot removal, but I also don't see many artifact-heavy decks. Disk has an upside where it leaves a flipped Lili alone. Mutilate is still good, so you could always try both Disk and Dust alternately to see which you favor. I'd have probably already slotted Mutilate in if I wasn't using Kagemaro.
I cannot say enough good things about Torment of Hailfire. No, it isn't as good as Exsanguinate, but that card is pretty broken anyways. It is another very good way to close out a game. Especially so immediately following a boardwipe. The opponent does get to chose the mode until they run out of cards in hand or nonland permanents. So you pump something close to double digits into that X and even if someone manages to not lose 3 (or more) life chances are the field and hands are wrecked. See also Death Cloud. I love that card.
I got some more games in tonight, cutting Contamination and Grave Betrayal for Liliana of the Dark Realms and Torment of Hailfire. I didn't draw Liliana so I still don't have a good enough feel for her, though I suspect she may be a little lackluster, but I need to see for myself. I did draw Torment though and it ended the game. I was able to Torment for 16 with a Caged Sun and Cabal Coffers and I took someone out at 27 life. He discarded 6 cards and only had one artifact in play so he ended up taking 27 exactly. Even if he could have survived that, he'd be left with nothing.
So my takeaways are that Torment is definitely in.
I can probably leave Filth out of the 99. Every now and then I kill with creatures, but most of the time it is draining out with a big X spell or creature recursion.
Definitely want to try out a Mindslicer after someone had 17 cards in their hand tonight.
Still want to mess around with Black Market and Nirkana Revenant. One of these may take the spot of Liliana of the Dark Realms if she ends up being no good. Speaking of mana ramp, have you guys messed around with any other mana doublers like Extraplanar Lens or Gauntlet of Power? I wonder if the symmetrical effects of these, and in the case of Extraplanar Lense the risk of losing a land, make them not worth while.
Lastly, I didn't get a chance to slot in All is Dust or Disk tonight, but I do want to give them a shot. I still think Black Sun's Zenith gets the cut. It actually got shut down by a Solemnity tonight, and even if that wasn't in play, I didn't have 8 mana to take out a Surrak Dragonclaw with it. My Oblivion Stone was what kept things under control and it was actually pretty nice to clear one opponents massive amounts of mana rocks off the field. This nudges me toward Disk despite its vulnerabilities.
Speaking of mana ramp, have you guys messed around with any other mana doublers like Extraplanar Lens or Gauntlet of Power? I wonder if the symmetrical effects of these, and in the case of Extraplanar Lense the risk of losing a land, make them not worth while.
I've used Gauntlet of Power in a red deck before, and I've seen black decks that ran every doubler they could, even Doubling Cube. Black is not only a more popular color than red, but when everybody has swamps because of Urborg I'm pretty hesitant to give opponents extra mana with the Gauntlet.
There's a similar issue with Extraplanar Lens because its effect is global, so people usually run snow-covered basics if nobody else is (and normal basics if everybody else runs snow-covered) to try to avoid giving opponents extra mana. Also means Urborg doesn't help the way it helps other doublers. I think the math on it (because of the loss of a land) works out to only being an immediate net gain mid-late game (worst-case of using it as a ritual because it gets removed quickly). But if you ramp well and it's likely to stick around the Lens could be worth it. Too bad it doesn't imprint like Strata Scythe does.
You're right. I didn't even think about Urborg giving everyone swamps. Urborg is a card I actively look for so it is pretty common that cards like Gauntlet of Power and Extraplanar Lens will do more harm than good.
I made a few more changes to the deck this morning. I cut Unstable Obelisk for Karn Liberated and Black Sun's Zenith for Nevinyrral's Disk. Obelisk was pretty unimpressive as a 3cmc mana rock, so if I'm really looking for a way to deal with problematic permanents, Karn seems like a much better way to handle it. After some thought I ended up going with Disk over All is Dust. I can handle indestructible creatures just fine with Pact effects and now Karn. I really would like more ways to deal with artifacts and enchantments and Disk handles that perfectly, as well as leaving my planeswalkers in tact like you mentioned. The only thing I'm debating now with this particular change is cutting Black Sun's Zenith vs. Mutilate. Sometimes the flexibility of BSZ is nice when I can leave some of my own creatures alive, but the lower cost of Mutilate when I have a bunch of mana on the field and the spells would be a near parity is also attractive.
Have any of you had experience with Razaketh? He seems super powerful, but I guess I rarely find myself going for him. Early game I'd usually rather reanimate some type of creature to help me control the board and late game if I have 8 mana to cast him and fodder to sac to him it feels like a win more card. I don't necessarily want to gear my deck toward more tokens to take advantage of him so I am considering cutting him for Mindslicer.
Thanks again for the discussion! I really appreciate being able to bounce card ideas off people. When I stare at my decklist over and over I get hung up on my own biases so it's really nice to ponder other people's opinions.
Here is my tappedout list if any of you care to see the evolution of the deck. I've tried to log most of my changes in the updates and give my reasoning for them.
Sometimes the flexibility of BSZ is nice when I can leave some of my own creatures alive, but the lower cost of Mutilate when I have a bunch of mana on the field and the spells would be a near parity is also attractive.
My thoughts are usually along the lines of, "it's a recursion deck, it's totally fine if all my stuff dies, too, because I'll just bring it back." But that's probably because none of my recursion is single use. I'm also kinda greedy in that I don't want to hobble my creatures with -1/-1 counters.
Have any of you had experience with Razaketh? He seems super powerful, but I guess I rarely find myself going for him. Early game I'd usually rather reanimate some type of creature to help me control the board and late game if I have 8 mana to cast him and fodder to sac to him it feels like a win more card. I don't necessarily want to gear my deck toward more tokens to take advantage of him so I am considering cutting him for Mindslicer.
I haven't had opportunity to use him yet, but he's not actually in my monoblack deck. Trying to restrict tutors in that right now. He's hanging out in my Daxos deck since tutors are important there and it needed flying support. Being able to tutor for 1WB and 2 life at instant speed seems pretty sweet and we'll see how that works. Late game you're more likely to be using him as a beater if you don't need to tutor, but he can also make an awesome outlet in response to a board wipe to fill your hand (or overfill for discard) if you have the life. But I can see how he could feel winmore since you drain life more than you need Raz as a beater and he just looks like an eight-mana sac-outlet-tutor. Mindslicer can get some damage in, too.
Thanks again for the discussion! I really appreciate being able to bounce card ideas off people. When I stare at my decklist over and over I get hung up on my own biases so it's really nice to ponder other people's opinions.
My pleasure. I have a bias for joining discussion in monoblack threads, apparently.
I bet I sound like a broken record by now but Gonti, Lord of Luxury is a wonderful card, especially if you can reanimate it and get it's trigger several times and grab some value, being able to grab a disenchant effect for later in the game when that terrible enchantment Monoblack can't deal with is so helpful.
Gonti is definitely a card I've looked at. Playing other people's cards is always fun, but the only reason I've left him out is because if I'm going to be recurring something repeatedly, I'd rather it be for an effect of my choosing rather than a random 4. I also don't have cards like Strionic Resonator or Conurer's Closet to really take advantage of him. That said, I still may give him a shot just because people hate it when you play their cards haha.
Gonti is hilarious. I used him against a Meren deck once because I wanted to see if I'd hit enchantment removal for his Grave Pact stuff. Three of those four cards were removal — Nature's Claim, Beast Within, and Acidic Slime. I chose the slime, of course, because Chainer.
Gonti is actually part of my all-out, thematic win condition in that list. Steal everything. I also see people with Gonti as the commander run stuff like Lost Hours and Misinformation.
I considered walking ballista, but it doesn't combo with mikaeus, which is really the only reason I'm running triskelion. I'm not necessarily looking for the type of effect these creatures bring, but looking to lock up a game that may be out of reach. The reason I am considering cutting triskelion is that sometimes it makes me feel dirty for comboing out, as well as being a poor top deck.
*Edit* Ballista doesn't combo as easily with Mikaeus, is what I meant to say. Ballista requires a sac outlet since he'll be a 1/1 from Mikaeus' pump with a +1/+1 counter on him from persist, where Triskelion comes back with 4 counters on him so he has enough to shoot an opponent and then finish itself off with the remaining counters.
What if, instead of Mike+Trike, you still had a game-ending loop in the deck but it was more like 3-5 cards and each of the cards was more useful on its own (as opposed to Triskelion)? Would you still feel the same way?
Gonti is definitely a card I've looked at. Playing other people's cards is always fun, but the only reason I've left him out is because if I'm going to be recurring something repeatedly, I'd rather it be for an effect of my choosing rather than a random 4. I also don't have cards like Strionic Resonator or Conurer's Closet to really take advantage of him. That said, I still may give him a shot just because people hate it when you play their cards haha.
Gonti gets absurd with those cards, but he is a good recursion target if you are facing something that mono-black can't deal with.
So I made a couple more changes. Took out Butcher of Malakir because I don't know how necessary pact effects are and in an attempt to do more in the early game I replaced him with Merciless Executioner, who also serves as another body to flip Liliana sooner. Butcher is a nice reanimation target, but I think my deck has better targets. Butcher is also more fragile than the enchantments and Merciless Executioner can be brought back with Liliana's - ability.
I changed my mind about Nevinyrral's Disk. I can't get past the fact that it needs to get around the table to do what it does. I replaced it with All is Dust, which will still take care of most of the problematic permanents, and with the addition of Karn, I don't feel quite as weak to artifacts now anyway.
Still considering cutting out Triskelion and not replacing it with any type of infinite combo. There are plenty of cards I want to play with that I think would be a lot more fun and would easily slot in to that spot. Also if I find that I'm not missing Butcher, I may end up cutting Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos altogether.
If I free up those 3 spots along with possibly Razaketh, I'd probably try and fit in Nirkana Revenant, Mindslicer, Gonti, and Thought Vessel. I really like Reliquary Tower when I have Necropotence in play, so another no max hand size effect is welcome. I can get behind the cheap ramp as well.
Well, if you decide you want a combo after all, Nim Deathmantle already has companion pieces in your list and wouldn't need any other additions. And it can pay off multiple ways depending on what else you have available. Nim Deathmantle + Ashnod's Altar + Grave Titan is the main engine and makes any number of zombies. That can win, but it also means you can loop any or all ETB creatures of your own any number of times each. Even without Grave Titan's tokens, just the Deathmantle and the Altar turn one ETB creature and N other creatures into N triggers from the ETB creature.
I ended up cutting Triskelion for Nim Deathmantle. I can't believe I didn't do that long ago. Deathmantle is a decent draw almost any time and it still allows me to combo out, but in a less cheesy and more ridiculous way, which I'm definitely on board with.
I also cut Razaketh, the Foulblooded for Gonti. Everyone here has had such high praise for Gonti, and I've been wanting to play around with him for awhile as well. Razaketh is so expensive that I almost always need to reanimate him unless I draw him late game, so he's not a reliable early sac outlet. He also requires that I have a board presence to fully take advantage of him. While I can create a large army of tokens, that's really more of a byproduct of what the deck does rather than its main strategy, so sometimes when I have Razaketh in hand or in the yard with the ability to reanimate him, he's a strictly worse Rune-Scarred Demon.
Lastly, I was looking through my cards and I'm not sure why I wasn't running Duplicant over Noxious Gearhulk. They both slot in at 6 and Duplicant's ability is a straight upgrade to Gearhulk. The life gain and menace is ok, but the ability to exile and get around protection is way more important.
Here is the list I'm currently on. Explanations on cards I'm looking to fit in and cut will follow.
1x Liliana, Heretical Healer
Creature (26)
1x Bone Shredder
1x Burnished Hart
1x Butcher of Malakir
1x Crypt Ghast
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Grave Titan
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Harvester of Souls
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Massacre Wurm
1x Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1x Noxious Gearhulk
1x Razaketh, the Foulblooded
1x Reassembling Skeleton
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Shriekmaw
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Triskelion
1x Vampire Hexmage
1x Viscera Seer
1x Withered Wretch
1x Yahenni, Undying Partisan
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Land (35)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Buried Ruin
1x Cabal Coffers
1x High Market
1x Leechridden Swamp
1x Myriad Landscape
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Strip Mine
23x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volrath's Stronghold
Enchantment (11)
1x Animate Dead
1x Bitterblossom
1x Contamination
1x Dictate of Erebos
1x Grave Betrayal
1x Grave Pact
1x Necromancy
1x Necropotence
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Phyrexian Reclamation
1x Strands of Night
Instant (4)
1x Entomb
1x Grim Return
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Caged Sun
1x Expedition Map
1x Jet Medallion
1x Mind Stone
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Phyrexian Altar
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Spawning Pit
1x Unstable Obelisk
1x Whip of Erebos
Sorcery (10)
1x Beacon of Unrest
1x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Damnation
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Dread Return
1x Exsanguinate
1x Mutilate
1x Reanimate
1x Victimize
Maybeboard (5)
1x Filth
1x Nirkana Revenant
1x Torment of Hailfire
1x Liliana of the Dark Realms
1x Black Market
Cards I'm looking to slot in...
Filth - I'm not sure how necessary this card is because I usually end up killing the whole table at once with Exsanguinate or recurring a Gray Merchant or Kokusho, but every now and then I will end up with a sizeable zombie army from a Grave Titan or Kalitas and with Urborg in play and Filth in the graveyard the evasion is just as effective at ending the game.
Nirkana Revenant - This deck can be very mana hungry so I'm never opposed to more mana enhancers, I'm just not sure if I want another 6 drop in the deck.
Torment of Hailfire - I'm looking for feedback on this card. I wouldn't mind having another big finisher, but every time I think about how the opponents get to make the choice of what happens to them it just doesn't seem like it will be as effective as I would like.
Liliana of the Dark Realms - I ran this card for a little bit before the planeswalker rule changed and I really liked it except for the fact that it was a bit awkward with a Liliana planeswalker as my commander. With the new rule in effect I wouldn't mind slotting her back in.
Black Market - I'm looking for feedback on this card as well. It seems like it could be pretty powerful since my deck excels at killing things, but sometimes I feel like it may be too slow at 5 mana. How has it performed for those who have used it?
Cards I'm considering cutting...
Butcher of Malakir - I already run Dictate of Erebos and Grave Pact so I'm not sure I need a 3rd card that does the same thing. At 7 mana it's pretty expensive, but what keeps it around is that it is a nice early reanimation target.
Contamination - This card is really powerful and can completely lock people out of the game, but I'm not always prepared to pay its upkeep. Also, sometimes it's a major feels bad card which is probably something I'll have to make the final call on, but from a pure power and synergy standpoint, what do you guys think?
Triskelion - I run this card simply to end games that get out of control. I usually don't go for the Tri/Mike combo right away, but it is there if someone gains infinite life or has a board state that is too tough to overcome. I really hate top decking this card though, because it's pretty awful on its own.
Grave Betrayal - This is a card I actually haven't cast too much. It's been in the deck a while, but I have never tutored for it and I rarely draw it so I can't say how effective it is. It's expensive, but it seems very powerful. The argument against the card is that it doesn't recur my own creatures which is where the true power of my deck lies. A lot of my creatures have powerful ETB effects and Grave Betrayal doesn't synergize with that at all. Taking my opponents creatures after a Damnation is great, but I'm not sure it's necessary.
Any and all feed back is appreciated! Maybe there are other weaker cards in the deck that could be pulled that I'm overlooking and I'd like to hear about those too.
Thanks!
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Can you tell us more about what where you'd like this deck to end up? Does Kalitas do good work in making zombies,
or does Grave Titan do most of that works?
Regarding your cuts:
If you're reliant on the Pact effects, then you should consider keeping Butcher of Malakir since it's a reanimation deck. He's easier to get back then either of the enchantments.
Contamination is the kind of card that, if I ran it in a deck, I would deploy when it would most protect what I wanted to do, such as comboing off. I probably wouldn't play it just to oppress the table. You could cut it or leave it in, really, but that's going to have more to do with how you want to play.
Triskelion is mainly up to you whether you want to break up the combo or not. There are, of course, other combos you could try out for ending games where the cards on their own don't feel so useless. But it's also not bad having discard fodder.
Grave Betrayal is the cut I most agree with. It doesn't play well with Kalitas or Mike. Being a reanimation deck, It that Betrays could work better, but also doesn't work so great with those two (because Mike's Undying returns them to owner's control). It does, however, work well with Torment of Hailfire. You could also just replace it with Rise of the Dark Realms if what you want is a backup to Liliana's emblem, but that requires some buildup of creature cards to be more game-ending (unless you happen to reanimate combo pieces).
Regarding what you want to add:
Filth would be a fine addition if combat were your primary approach to winning, but it seems like life draing/leeching is. Entombing it for a surprise alpha strike could provide another way to close out a game.
Nirkana Revenant would be a fine addition, especially with a couple X spells already and a possible third. Also it's a creature for reanimation.
I've had my doubts about running Liliana of the Dark Realms, and my Chainer deck loves lots of swamps. If combat is viable, then Sword of the Animist could be better, even if you're paying 2 every turn to attach it to a zombie that gets blocked.
Black Market really depends on: 1. how quickly after it resolves you'd get enough counters on it to make it worth it; 2. how much you need extra mana only during your first main phase. Could be fine with the X sorceries, but Nirkana Revenant or Doubling Cube could be more flexible.
A few other cards I thought of for your consideration:
Corpse Dance — Narrower in its targeting, but you might have enough sacrifice outlets to avoid the exile. Some of your reanimation seemed one-off.
Only one of your wipes takes out noncreatures, so maybe a Nevinyrral's Disk or All is Dust?
It was suggested recently to me to switch Harvester of Souls for Smothering Abomination. Could run into the same problem you have with Contamination because you have only a partial stax package, but it draws off all creature sacrifice, not just nontoken. Grim Haruspex is good, too, for drawing off your own nontokens dying.
If sacrifice costs become a problem, other repeatable sacrifice fodder like Endless Cockroaches or tokens from Ogre Slumlord or Ophiomancer might be considered.
That's all I have for now.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Ophiomancer is great for producing sacrifice fodder. However, if you control a snake at the beginning of your upkeep, you can't get a new snake from Ophiomancer if you sacrifice that snake.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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As far as where I want the deck to end up, I'm actually pretty happy with how it performs. The issues I have with the deck are sometimes my early game is slow. The deck can be very mana hungry, which I don't have a problem with, but it just means that sometimes it doesn't start clicking until 5 or 6 turns in. The other issue is that sometimes the deck just durdles. It'll do a fine job at keeping the board clear, but I just won't see any type of finisher, which leads me to believe fitting in cards like Smother Abomination or Grim Haruspex, like you suggest, may be the way to go.
Kalitas and Grave Titan both do a great job at creating zombies and they both do it on a different axis. Kalitas doesn't require a whole lot of my hand to build up an army. He will do his thing when opponents attack each other, when I board wipe, or use one of my sac outlets with a pact in play. Grave Titan is great on offense, but if I have resources in my hand, I can really abuse him with sac outlets and reanimation spells.
Contamination is getting cut. The reasons you state for running it make sense and I'm not really comboing with this deck. It generally starts to snowball out of control rather than setting up one critical turn.
I actually ran Rise of the Dark Realms for awhile and it never really did quite as much as I wanted it to for its mana cost. Grave Betrayal is playing out the same way so I agree with you that it should probably get cut.
I'm still torn about Filth, because I do tend to win with draining and recurring etb effects. When I build up an army of zombies with Grave Titan or Kalitas they usually just stall the game long enough for me to drain people out, but with a Filth in the yard I may be able to end the game with combat. I'll have to pay more attention to board states next time I end up in that situation.
I could probably skip Liliana of the Dark Realms. The swamps are nice, but she doesn't really effect the board and if I get her out early, which would be ideal, I don't always have the best early game defense set up to protect her. With Heretical Healer I get to choose when to flip her, which usually means I have all my mana at my disposal to protect her when she turns into a planeswalker.
I think I like the suggestion of Nirkana Revenant over Black Market. There is only a 1 cmc difference between the two and I can leverage creatures much better than enchantments.
I may consider switching back to Smothering Abomination over Harvester. I do like the lower cmc and once I get a board state established I find that I'm sacrificing my own creatures more than I'm attacking my opponents. And at the very worst, Abomination will at least replace itself if I have to sac itself to its upkeep. If I find that Abomination's upkeep is a hinderance then I may consider Grim Haruspex.
Ophiomancer is a nice consideration too. I'm not sure where I'd fit him in, but I do like the extra body to leverage each turn, even if just as a defensive deathtoucher.
For sweepers, I could consider cutting Black Sun's Zenith or Mutilate for All is Dust or Nevinyrral's Disk. Black Sun is usually at least as mana intensive as All is Dust and they both handle indestructible creatures as well as everything else All is Dust hits. I guess it's a trade off between destroying artifacts vs. planeswalkers with Disk vs. Dust. I do like that dust doesn't need to untap to do what it does.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Sounds good. I like stealing my opponents' creatures, so Kalitas has always been something I just couldn't use.
Rise definitely needs a bunch of good stuff in the graveyards, which means milling, discard, Life's Finale, etc.
Yeah, I was mostly offering options if you found yourself light on sacrificial tokens. Pawn of Ulamog and Skull Sifter are options, too, and may work better with stuff like Grave Pact effects and Smothering Abomination. I'd also completely forgotten about Blood Artist/Falkenrath Noble since the deck likes to trigger on deaths.
Yeah, right now I'm running Ugin, the Spirit Dragon to see how I like that compared to All is Dust for dealing with enchantments. Oblivion Stone is currently my only solution for artifacts other than some spot removal, but I also don't see many artifact-heavy decks. Disk has an upside where it leaves a flipped Lili alone. Mutilate is still good, so you could always try both Disk and Dust alternately to see which you favor. I'd have probably already slotted Mutilate in if I wasn't using Kagemaro.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
So my takeaways are that Torment is definitely in.
I can probably leave Filth out of the 99. Every now and then I kill with creatures, but most of the time it is draining out with a big X spell or creature recursion.
Definitely want to try out a Mindslicer after someone had 17 cards in their hand tonight.
Still want to mess around with Black Market and Nirkana Revenant. One of these may take the spot of Liliana of the Dark Realms if she ends up being no good. Speaking of mana ramp, have you guys messed around with any other mana doublers like Extraplanar Lens or Gauntlet of Power? I wonder if the symmetrical effects of these, and in the case of Extraplanar Lense the risk of losing a land, make them not worth while.
Lastly, I didn't get a chance to slot in All is Dust or Disk tonight, but I do want to give them a shot. I still think Black Sun's Zenith gets the cut. It actually got shut down by a Solemnity tonight, and even if that wasn't in play, I didn't have 8 mana to take out a Surrak Dragonclaw with it. My Oblivion Stone was what kept things under control and it was actually pretty nice to clear one opponents massive amounts of mana rocks off the field. This nudges me toward Disk despite its vulnerabilities.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
I've used Gauntlet of Power in a red deck before, and I've seen black decks that ran every doubler they could, even Doubling Cube. Black is not only a more popular color than red, but when everybody has swamps because of Urborg I'm pretty hesitant to give opponents extra mana with the Gauntlet.
There's a similar issue with Extraplanar Lens because its effect is global, so people usually run snow-covered basics if nobody else is (and normal basics if everybody else runs snow-covered) to try to avoid giving opponents extra mana. Also means Urborg doesn't help the way it helps other doublers. I think the math on it (because of the loss of a land) works out to only being an immediate net gain mid-late game (worst-case of using it as a ritual because it gets removed quickly). But if you ramp well and it's likely to stick around the Lens could be worth it. Too bad it doesn't imprint like Strata Scythe does.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I made a few more changes to the deck this morning. I cut Unstable Obelisk for Karn Liberated and Black Sun's Zenith for Nevinyrral's Disk. Obelisk was pretty unimpressive as a 3cmc mana rock, so if I'm really looking for a way to deal with problematic permanents, Karn seems like a much better way to handle it. After some thought I ended up going with Disk over All is Dust. I can handle indestructible creatures just fine with Pact effects and now Karn. I really would like more ways to deal with artifacts and enchantments and Disk handles that perfectly, as well as leaving my planeswalkers in tact like you mentioned. The only thing I'm debating now with this particular change is cutting Black Sun's Zenith vs. Mutilate. Sometimes the flexibility of BSZ is nice when I can leave some of my own creatures alive, but the lower cost of Mutilate when I have a bunch of mana on the field and the spells would be a near parity is also attractive.
Have any of you had experience with Razaketh? He seems super powerful, but I guess I rarely find myself going for him. Early game I'd usually rather reanimate some type of creature to help me control the board and late game if I have 8 mana to cast him and fodder to sac to him it feels like a win more card. I don't necessarily want to gear my deck toward more tokens to take advantage of him so I am considering cutting him for Mindslicer.
Thanks again for the discussion! I really appreciate being able to bounce card ideas off people. When I stare at my decklist over and over I get hung up on my own biases so it's really nice to ponder other people's opinions.
Here is my tappedout list if any of you care to see the evolution of the deck. I've tried to log most of my changes in the updates and give my reasoning for them.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/14-03-17-liliana-heretical-healer/
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
I haven't had opportunity to use him yet, but he's not actually in my monoblack deck. Trying to restrict tutors in that right now. He's hanging out in my Daxos deck since tutors are important there and it needed flying support. Being able to tutor for 1WB and 2 life at instant speed seems pretty sweet and we'll see how that works. Late game you're more likely to be using him as a beater if you don't need to tutor, but he can also make an awesome outlet in response to a board wipe to fill your hand (or overfill for discard) if you have the life. But I can see how he could feel winmore since you drain life more than you need Raz as a beater and he just looks like an eight-mana sac-outlet-tutor. Mindslicer can get some damage in, too.
My pleasure. I have a bias for joining discussion in monoblack threads, apparently.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Gonti is actually part of my all-out, thematic win condition in that list. Steal everything. I also see people with Gonti as the commander run stuff like Lost Hours and Misinformation.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
*Edit* Ballista doesn't combo as easily with Mikaeus, is what I meant to say. Ballista requires a sac outlet since he'll be a 1/1 from Mikaeus' pump with a +1/+1 counter on him from persist, where Triskelion comes back with 4 counters on him so he has enough to shoot an opponent and then finish itself off with the remaining counters.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
old thread
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Gonti gets absurd with those cards, but he is a good recursion target if you are facing something that mono-black can't deal with.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
I changed my mind about Nevinyrral's Disk. I can't get past the fact that it needs to get around the table to do what it does. I replaced it with All is Dust, which will still take care of most of the problematic permanents, and with the addition of Karn, I don't feel quite as weak to artifacts now anyway.
Still considering cutting out Triskelion and not replacing it with any type of infinite combo. There are plenty of cards I want to play with that I think would be a lot more fun and would easily slot in to that spot. Also if I find that I'm not missing Butcher, I may end up cutting Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos altogether.
If I free up those 3 spots along with possibly Razaketh, I'd probably try and fit in Nirkana Revenant, Mindslicer, Gonti, and Thought Vessel. I really like Reliquary Tower when I have Necropotence in play, so another no max hand size effect is welcome. I can get behind the cheap ramp as well.
Anyway... enough rambling for now.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
I also cut Razaketh, the Foulblooded for Gonti. Everyone here has had such high praise for Gonti, and I've been wanting to play around with him for awhile as well. Razaketh is so expensive that I almost always need to reanimate him unless I draw him late game, so he's not a reliable early sac outlet. He also requires that I have a board presence to fully take advantage of him. While I can create a large army of tokens, that's really more of a byproduct of what the deck does rather than its main strategy, so sometimes when I have Razaketh in hand or in the yard with the ability to reanimate him, he's a strictly worse Rune-Scarred Demon.
Lastly, I was looking through my cards and I'm not sure why I wasn't running Duplicant over Noxious Gearhulk. They both slot in at 6 and Duplicant's ability is a straight upgrade to Gearhulk. The life gain and menace is ok, but the ability to exile and get around protection is way more important.
1x Liliana, Heretical Healer
Creature (25)
1x Bone Shredder
1x Burnished Hart
1x Crypt Ghast
1x Duplicant
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1x Grave Titan
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Harvester of Souls
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Massacre Wurm
1x Merciless Executioner
1x Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1x Reassembling Skeleton
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Shriekmaw
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Vampire Hexmage
1x Viscera Seer
1x Withered Wretch
1x Yahenni, Undying Partisan
Planeswalker (3)
1x Karn Liberated
1x Liliana of the Dark Realms
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Buried Ruin
1x Cabal Coffers
1x High Market
1x Leechridden Swamp
1x Myriad Landscape
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Strip Mine
23x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volrath's Stronghold
Sorcery (11)
1x All Is Dust
1x Beacon of Unrest
1x Damnation
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Dread Return
1x Exsanguinate
1x Mutilate
1x Reanimate
1x Torment of Hailfire
1x Victimize
Instant (4)
1x Entomb
1x Grim Return
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Caged Sun
1x Expedition Map
1x Jet Medallion
1x Mind Stone
1x Nim Deathmantle
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Phyrexian Altar
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Spawning Pit
1x Whip of Erebos
Enchantment (9)
1x Animate Dead
1x Bitterblossom
1x Dictate of Erebos
1x Grave Pact
1x Necromancy
1x Necropotence
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Phyrexian Reclamation
1x Strands of Night
Maybeboard
1x Mindslicer
1x Nirkana Revenant
1x Razaketh, the Foulblooded
1x Black Market
1x Thought Vessel
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG