First of all, thank you for the detailed guide. I am suprised, that the first big guide for Damia doesn't focus on a combo oriented decklist. I like this fact, because my take on Damia is similar. I want to share my decklist:
Based on my experience with this list, i have several thoughts to share.
1) Many players don't like to play against hardcontrol decks, but i think our decks can be a gain for most playgroups. Sure, you play your Damia pile for the purpose of winning, but you have very much interactions with other players and you don't play just for the win like a combo player, who only intent to develop and protect his winning combo.
I suggest this philosophy: Think about Damia as a tough and smart police woman! It's possible to ingratiate yourself with other players, for example by preventing stuff like Armageddon or by destroying hated permanents. In a game, where you achieve success with your efforts and you are not recognized as the egocentric comboplayer, you have the possibility to survive long enough to overwhelm the remaining players.
2) I usually win the game with a small number of the following cards:
Damia, Sage of Stone: The most satisfying way of winning, the potential cardadvantage is enormous. But you have to protect her and the most versatile way are counterspells. But care, a simple Counterspell is often much more potent in doing this job compared to a cool but cluncy Desertion or Draining Whelk.
Future Sight: I think i can compare this choice with your Phyrexian Arena. I think Future Sight offers more power in the lategame, but Arena is less threatening and helps more in the early- and midgame.
Avenger of Zendikar: With the focus on lands, this dude is a serious force to deal with. But even in the midgame, he can make a lot of trouble on his own.
3) I don't like to donate tokens to opponents, so i don't play Beast Within or Terastodon, although this cards are good. In this place i prefer Woodfall Primus and other disruptive creatures you didn't mention. I also don't like constant sources of self-damaging, so i play without for example Mana Crypt. But if this is no problem for you, maybe Necropotence is worth to mention. Vampiric Tutor is strong, especially with Damia, but i'm afraid that this can pull aggro of players, because this looks like a combo player's gameplay. If this is no problem, Insidious Dreams could be a vaild option with Damia.
4) I play more one-shot effects, which is much of a deck building decision. I think engines are great, especially in commander. But many engines have no immediate effect, so sometimes they are doing nothing until the time where they are destroyed. This is where cards like Deep Analysis shine, while a Rhystic Study in the lategame is often a bad joke. I think the combination of both - one-shot effects and engines - is a good decision, while a personal focus should be taken. The best example for the synergy of both domains are cantrips like Preordain or Impulse - they give the whole deck more flow and help to find needed cards (including the engines!).
3) I played cards like Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Exploration, but in the meantime i prefer mana fixers (with card advantage) like Kodama's Reach and Cultivate. Maybe only Oracle of Mul Daya is strong enough on it's own. I think it's a valid decision to play even more ramp as you do, but you have to care, because this strategy can be recognised as greedy. Nevertheless it's a very good idea to focus on lands with Damia, an this is the reason you find cards like Expedition Map and Sylvan Scrying in my list.
6) I still have problems to find the ideal amount of removal and counterspells. There are situations, where i can't find the needed piece, mostly when my recursion engines are getting disrupted.
7) The mana curve is another problem department in my deck. Damia is begging for low costed spells, but we don't want to rely on her to much, so we are asked for the middle way. The decisions are hard, for example i play Recollect over Restock and Counterspell over Cryptic Command, just for mana curve purposes.
[Edit] 8) I played Mindslicer some time ago and it was terrible with all the counterspells and other important stuff you need to hold on your hand. Some people suggest discard like this and for sure, there are Damia-decks, that can make profit from this idea, but not mine.
First of all, thank you for the detailed guide. I am suprised, that the first big guide for Damia doesn't focus on a combo oriented decklist. I like this fact, because my take on Damia is similar. I want to share my decklist:
Based on my experience with this list, i have several thoughts to share.
1) Many players don't like to play against hardcontrol decks, but i think our decks can be a gain for most playgroups. Sure, you play your Damia pile for the purpose of winning, but you have very much interactions with other players and you don't play just for the win like a combo player, who only intent to develop and protect his winning combo.
I suggest this philosophy: Think about Damia as a tough and smart police woman! It's possible to ingratiate yourself with other players, for example by preventing stuff like Armageddon or by destroying hated permanents. In a game, where you achieve success with your efforts and you are not recognized as the egocentric comboplayer, you have the possibility to survive long enough to overwhelm the remaining players.
2) I usually win the game with a small number of the following cards:
Damia, Sage of Stone: The most satisfying way of winning, the potential cardadvantage is enormous. But you have to protect her and the most versatile way are counterspells. But care, a simple Counterspell is often much more potent in doing this job compared to a cool but cluncy Desertion or Draining Whelk.
Future Sight: I think i can compare this choice with your Phyrexian Arena. I think Future Sight offers more power in the lategame, but Arena is less threatening and helps more in the early- and midgame.
Avenger of Zendikar: With the focus on lands, this dude is a serious force to deal with. But even in the midgame, he can make a lot of trouble on his own.
3) I don't like to donate tokens to opponents, so i don't play Beast Within or Terastodon, although this cards are good. In this place i prefer Woodfall Primus and other disruptive creatures you didn't mention. I also don't like constant sources of self-damaging, so i play without for example Mana Crypt. But if this is no problem for you, maybe Necropotence is worth to mention. Vampiric Tutor is strong, especially with Damia, but i'm afraid that this can pull aggro of players, because this looks like a combo player's gameplay. If this is no problem, Insidious Dreams could be a vaild option with Damia.
4) I play more one-shot effects, which is much of a deck building decision. I think engines are great, especially in commander. But many engines have no immediate effect, so sometimes they are doing nothing until the time where they are destroyed. This is where cards like Deep Analysis shine, while a Rhystic Study in the lategame is often a bad joke. I think the combination of both - one-shot effects and engines - is a good decision, while a personal focus should be taken. The best example for the synergy of both domains are cantrips like Preordain or Impulse - they give the whole deck more flow and help to find needed cards (including the engines!).
3) I played cards like Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Exploration, but in the meantime i prefer mana fixers (with card advantage) like Kodama's Reach and Cultivate. Maybe only Oracle of Mul Daya is strong enough on it's own. I think it's a valid decision to play even more ramp as you do, but you have to care, because this strategy can be recognised as greedy. Nevertheless it's a very good idea to focus on lands with Damia, an this is the reason you find cards like Expedition Map and Sylvan Scrying in my list.
6) I still have problems to find the ideal amount of removal and counterspells. There are situations, where i can't find the needed piece, mostly when my recursion engines are getting disrupted.
7) The mana curve is another problem department in my deck. Damia is begging for low costed spells, but we don't want to rely on her to much, so we are asked for the middle way. The decisions are hard, for example i play Recollect over Restock and Counterspell over Cryptic Command, just for mana curve purposes.
[Edit] 8) I played Mindslicer some time ago and it was terrible with all the counterspells and other important stuff you need to hold on your hand. Some people suggest discard like this and for sure, there are Damia-decks, that can make profit from this idea, but not mine.
1.) I agree, I think control is one of the best strategies for a multiplayer environment. You need other's help and being able to actually answer things is crucial in getting to the late game.
2.) I have shuffled Future Sight in and out of the deck. It can be really powerful, but the mana cost is so high that I rarely want to invest in casting it. I guess I have Exsanguinate in the same slot that many people have Avenger of Zendikar. With so many people running Avenger I should probably pick one up and at least try it out.
3.) I feel like you should at least try Beast Within, the token is a small price to pay for being able to answer any permanent at instant speed. I have never had the token be relevant. I have considered Woodfall Primus but I just don't like the idea of paying 8 to destroy a single permanent. However I might try him in the space of Terastodon but Terastodon seems slightly better as he can hit more stuff.
Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb, Fetchlands, and Phyrexian Arena are all ways to speed up the process of stabilizing. The life loss has never been an issue for me, and the acceleration is just so nuts. In the long run I feel that I actually take less damage because I am able to stabilize and prevent damage from getting through. If you have access to it, I would seriously consider running Crypt in the deck. Your life total is only important as long as it isn't zero. Exsanguinate is another way to get a shot in the arm if you end up taking too much.
I would certainly run Vampiric Tutor it is just a great utility card and I wouldn't worry that people were thinking I was going to combo off, because most of the time you aren't! I have thought about Insidious Dreams but I always feel like I can find more problems with it than upsides. It may be worth testing but I would rather have Fact or Fiction or something similar for the same mana.
4.) I agree that one shot effects are necessary I don't think that I have the perfect balance yet. Out of Ponder, Preordain, and Impulse which do you like the most? I would lean towards Impulse as I like instant speed draw most.
5.) This deck certainly rewards you for focusing on lands. I run Exploration because I am always happy to see it and I have never really had anyone complain about it. I have also cut the land tutoring from my deck, but I have been rethinking that lately. Have you tried Crop Rotation? I have always liked having an instant speed land tutor.
6.) The balance issue is difficult and mostly meta dependent. If people are trying to be aggro or combo off early in the game, you really need more spot removal and cheap counters, but if you are always getting to the lategame I would focus on the higher end and board sweepers.
7.) Curve is hugely important in a control deck and I am still tweaking mine. However the raw power of Restock and Cryptic Command mean that I would rather make cuts at the high end of my curve than take them from the deck.
8.) The only discard I have seriously considered is Mind Twist but I can never find space for it.
- Have you tried Scroll Rack? It is really, really good in this deck and can be dropped early on to help you hit your land drops, find removal, etc.
- Do you like Maze of Ith in the deck? I recently cut it from my list as I felt that I wasn't utilizing it very much. If people were attacking me it was usually with enough damage that it didn't matter or I was in control of the game and I wished Maze was another land. There is also a lot of shroud running around so I didn't always have a chance to target something. I do love the card though and recognize that it is great value. It might get put back in purely for nostalgia's sake.
Out of Ponder, Preordain, and Impulse which do you like the most? I would lean towards Impulse as I like instant speed draw most.
Yes, Impulse is by far the best of these cantrips. I think i play this card in a slot, where i could play additional ramp (for example Farseek) instead. There is only a limited number of slots for utility cards and i prefer cantrips over the small ramp, because they are better in the lategame. As a side note: Brainstorm and Impulse are both great, but Telling Time is underperforming. It's strange, because it's designed as a hybrid of both - but i never started to like it...
Have you tried Crop Rotation? I have always liked having an instant speed land tutor.
No i didn't. But the instant speed is an interesting idea... You could intimidate other players with a crazy "attack me and you will feel the pain of my Stip Mine/Wasteland destroying your loved [insert land]!!!". Bojuka Bog is also much more potent at instant speed. But i think other lands have no additional value at instant speed and i am not a fan of card disadvantage
How does the Genesis + Mulldrifter/Shriekmaw/Fleshbag Marauder/Krosan Tusker engine work out for you? I have an aversion to playing creatures so sometimes I ignore potentially powerful interactions like that.
I built a Teneb, the Harvester deck before and this group of creatures is some kind of the spiritual heritage. The whole thing will not win the game on it's own, but the interactions can stall the board pretty good. But the creature count for Genesis is very much at the minimum end.
A good argument for Krosan Tusker and Yavimaya Elder: They fix mana, but they are no dead draws in the mid-/lategame, because they cantrip. And btw: Genesis+Yavimaya Elder+Skullclamp once won the game for me. :xd:
I think Fleshbag Marauder depends on the metagame. Wrath of God-effects are omnipresent in my group, so a recurring Fleshbag Marauder is very effective at supressing my opponents creatures.
In the end, the package is worth the slots. I think, it has a good synergy with Damia, Sage of Stone, because i don't rely on the graveyard that much (compared to Teneb, the Harvester), so it's nice to have and the opponents are forced to deal with my graveyard.
Have you tried Scroll Rack? It is really, really good in this deck and can be dropped early on to help you hit your land drops, find removal, etc.
It's a shame, i don't play Scroll Rack because it overcharges my mind with all the possible decisions! Everytime i played it in other decks, i needed so much time to consider the options, that my opponents began to hate me. But this is an individual problem
Do you like Maze of Ith in the deck? I recently cut it from my list as I felt that I wasn't utilizing it very much. If people were attacking me it was usually with enough damage that it didn't matter or I was in control of the game and I wished Maze was another land. There is also a lot of shroud running around so I didn't always have a chance to target something.
I agree with your suggestion in the primer - Maze of Ith is a "meta-game call". We have a token-based Rhys the Redeemed-deck in the group and Maze of Ith is absolutely useless against his strategy, but there is also a Rafiq of the Many deck around, where the Maze is amazing. But in general - Commander is a format full of big creatures, i think the Maze has enough uses - especially with all the ramp, which compensates the speed drawback.
Yes, Impulse is by far the best of these cantrips. I think i play this card in a slot, where i could play additional ramp (for example Farseek) instead. There is only a limited number of slots for utility cards and i prefer cantrips over the small ramp, because they are better in the lategame. As a side note: Brainstorm and Impulse are both great, but Telling Time is underperforming. It's strange, because it's designed as a hybrid of both - but i never started to like it...
The problem with cantrips is that I have a hard time slotting them in my deck. I value my ramp highly because I like having my mana fixed as early as possible. I also want to cast Damia sooner rather than later but maybe I should try this approach as ramp is dead late game. On the other hand, it is such an advantage for this deck to have more mana than anyone else. It allows the deck to cast more spells per turn or leave mana open while still advancing your board state. Just like a standard deck, we need to hit every single land drop so if I cut ramp I would really have to replace it with lands and not card drawing. Card draw does not necessarily equate to ramp because sometimes you will Brainstorm looking for that third/fourth land and it just isn't there.
No i didn't. But the instant speed is an interesting idea... You could intimidate other players with a crazy "attack me and you will feel the pain of my Stip Mine/Wasteland destroying your loved [insert land]!!!". Bojuka Bog is also much more potent at instant speed. But i think other lands have no additional value at instant speed and i am not a fan of card disadvantage
I think one of BUG's unseen strengths is in abusing lands. People tend to leave lands alone so relying on them is one of the stronger strategies. I have cut all of the land tutors from my deck as I don't really have a hard time finding the lands I need. The only land combination I really want is Coffers/Urborg and I don't want to set that up until I know I can protect it or utilize it.
I built a Teneb, the Harvester deck before and this group of creatures is some kind of the spiritual heritage. The whole thing will not win the game on it's own, but the interactions can stall the board pretty good. But the creature count for Genesis is very much at the minimum end.
A good argument for Krosan Tusker and Yavimaya Elder: They fix mana, but they are no dead draws in the mid-/lategame, because they cantrip. And btw: Genesis+Yavimaya Elder+Skullclamp once won the game for me. :xd:
I think Fleshbag Marauder depends on the metagame. Wrath of God-effects are omnipresent in my group, so a recurring Fleshbag Marauder is very effective at supressing my opponents creatures.
In the end, the package is worth the slots. I think, it has a good synergy with Damia, Sage of Stone, because i don't rely on the graveyard that much (compared to Teneb, the Harvester), so it's nice to have and the opponents are forced to deal with my graveyard.
I certainly agree that forcing your opponents to deal with your graveyard is a good strategy. I guess I have been Bogged one two many times for me to rely on it overmuch. The Genesis engine seems really intriguing and it is something that I am liable to overlook because too me it seems slow. However if it is late game and you don't have a whole lot to do with your mana, it really isn't that much for the repeatable effects you are getting. I think in my quest for efficiency I ignore how effective slower paced plays can be. Hence me putting the Life from the Loam + Cycle lands engine back into my deck.
It's a shame, i don't play Scroll Rack because it overcharges my mind with all the possible decisions! Everytime i played it in other decks, i needed so much time to consider the options, that my opponents began to hate me. But this is an individual problem
Yeah, cards like Scroll Rack definitely land a bit more on the challenging end of the spectrum. This can be a downside of the deck because it is substantially harder to play if you just want to sit around and drink beer.
I agree with your suggestion in the primer - Maze of Ith is a "meta-game call". We have a token-based Rhys the Redeemed-deck in the group and Maze of Ith is absolutely useless against his strategy, but there is also a Rafiq of the Many deck around, where the Maze is amazing. But in general - Commander is a format full of big creatures, i think the Maze has enough uses - especially with all the ramp, which compensates the speed drawback.
Yeah I think I should try to fit it back in, I would also like to put Mox Diamond back in but finding two card slots can be a challenge. I think that I get ahead of myself with theorizing about the deck. I make changes without having a chance to test them out! Hopefully I will get to play some this weekend and try out a few of my recent changes.
I also have a very similar take on this deck, as it draws a lot of hate in my area and people always think I'm going to win randomly. I also have a similar build, I'm going to link to my deck on tapped out because I don't really know how to make the decklist on here and im lazy anyways.
But anyways, lately I've been cutting cards that have bad synergy with Damia and adding good cards that have good synergy with Damia. I don't play cards like consecrated sphinx, because while it is amazing to have one, it usually gets killed and if I fill up my hand with damia in play, I wont be drawing my next turn. I've had that happen to me a couple of times and it sucks. I usually win after playing tooth and nail, it's a amazing card. But lately, I've been wanting to cut some more stuff and add some more ramp spells as I only play a couple. Also, adding more counters as people lately have been really messing with me after they know what this deck is capable of.
Stuff I want to add:
Forbid - Amazing with Damia, definetly going to add soon.
Dream Halls - This is a tricky one, while this card can be amazing since you can discard and pitch your hand to play big things, and get the card draw back with Damia, it allows your opponents to use it too. But my idea on this card is that if your opponents start using it they are going to loose card advantage without a good draw engine like damia, and I'll keep refilling my hand with Damia. What do you guys think about this one, Im gonna try playtesting it soon. The other interesting thing about this is because this essentially makes damia cost 3uu, because the turn you play Dream Halls you can discard a black, blue or green card to cast damia, alot of sick opportunitys here with this card but a lot of draw backs at the same time.
Palinchron - With tooth and nail and 11 mana using it, there is a combo where you instantly mill everyone and win. Definetly gonna play it, which requires Oona, Vorinclex, Palinchron and a clone.
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger - Read above
Deserted Temple - Can be amazing to untap a cabal coffers or cradle.
Oona, Queen of Fae - read vorinclex
Skyshroud Claim - more ramp
Cultivate - more ramp
Grim Monolith - more ramp, a better mana vault
Voidslime - counter/stifle
Crucible of Worlds - self explained
Sunder - can win games with good board control
Mana Reflection - amazing mana doubler
Although its getting really hard to make cuts for this deck. Im slowly getting closer to the deck I want 100%. If any of you guys have questions on why I play a certain card just ask, thanks!
But anyways, lately I've been cutting cards that have bad synergy with Damia and adding good cards that have good synergy with Damia. I don't play cards like consecrated sphinx, because while it is amazing to have one, it usually gets killed and if I fill up my hand with damia in play, I wont be drawing my next turn. I've had that happen to me a couple of times and it sucks.
Consecrated Sphinx won me the game very often (it even won the game for an opponent once, because he stole her with Bribery hehe). I would never consider it a bad card. And i see no "bad synergy" with Damia... I never want both on the battlefield, but only because one of two is enough to win the game.
Dream Halls - This is a tricky one, while this card can be amazing since you can discard and pitch your hand to play big things, and get the card draw back with Damia, it allows your opponents to use it too. But my idea on this card is that if your opponents start using it they are going to loose card advantage without a good draw engine like damia, and I'll keep refilling my hand with Damia. What do you guys think about this one, Im gonna try playtesting it soon. The other interesting thing about this is because this essentially makes damia cost 3uu, because the turn you play Dream Halls you can discard a black, blue or green card to cast damia, alot of sick opportunitys here with this card but a lot of draw backs at the same time.
This depends on the type of deck you play. A combo deck with Damia, Sage of Stone can go off with Dream Halls on the battlefield. In this case i would expect, that you cast Dream Halls and win in the same or next turn. This would minimize the amount of possibilities, that your opponents gain through this card.
A control deck with Damia, Sage of Stone can suffer from Dream Halls under several circumstances. For example: I don't like to face Progenitus over and over again. It's hard to control such situations for a long time, even with Damia's draw and the acceleration of Dream Halls.
Palinchron - With tooth and nail and 11 mana using it, there is a combo where you instantly mill everyone and win. Definetly gonna play it, which requires Oona, Vorinclex, Palinchron and a clone.
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger - Read above
Oona, Queen of Fae - read vorinclex
Many players in this forum recommend this combo for Damia. I don't play it, because Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger has several drawbacks (not as combo piece, but as a card on it's own). 8 Mana is a point in the game, where the ramp is not necessarily needed and seems greedy - bad for an easy destructible creature. His second ability draws a lot of hate, but is potent. My biggest fear: To face him after a Bribery on me...
And Oona, Queen of Fae is not that impressive on the hand, if you ask me
If any of you guys have questions on why I play a certain card just ask, thanks!
Consecrated Sphinx won me the game very often (it even won the game for an opponent once, because he stole her with Bribery hehe). I would never consider it a bad card. And i see no "bad synergy" with Damia... I never want both on the battlefield, but only because one of two is enough to win the game.
This depends on the type of deck you play. A combo deck with Damia, Sage of Stone can go off with Dream Halls on the battlefield. In this case i would expect, that you cast Dream Halls and win in the same or next turn. This would minimize the amount of possibilities, that your opponents gain through this card.
A control deck with Damia, Sage of Stone can suffer from Dream Halls under several circumstances. For example: I don't like to face Progenitus over and over again. It's hard to control such situations for a long time, even with Damia's draw and the acceleration of Dream Halls.
Many players in this forum recommend this combo for Damia. I don't play it, because Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger has several drawbacks (not as combo piece, but as a card on it's own). 8 Mana is a point in the game, where the ramp is not necessarily needed and seems greedy - bad for an easy destructible creature. His second ability draws a lot of hate, but is potent. My biggest fear: To face him after a Bribery on me...
And Oona, Queen of Fae is not that impressive on the hand, if you ask me
I guess your kinda right for your take on consecrated sphinx, it's just so good of a card that it really doesnt matter.
1. Azusa, Lost but Seeking, I personally love this card with Damia out on the field, it allows you to pitch those 2-3 land cards in your hand without being restricted so you can draw a lot next turn. It's also a very solid card on its own if you play it properly.
2. Minamo, School at Water's Edge, Honestly that's just in there for tech, I never really use its ability, I still have this left in here after using Vorosh for so long.
3. Riptide Laboratory, I found that this can be very useful and should definetly be played as one of your lands, its a very easy way to save your damia from dying multiple times, as its cast begins to cost to much. Its also works with Trinket Mage for extra 1 or less tutors. Very solid.
4. Myojin of Night's Reach, This card, well opponents hate it and it can only be casted to get the counter so no Tooth and Nail. Although everytime I have ever casted and it resolved I win, but its mana cost is very clunky and I usually only cast it if I have cabal coffers, urborg. Definetly considering cutting this eventually.
5. Trygon Predator and Thada Adel, Acquisitor, are just amazing utility cards, trygon predator is just so good because it has Flying, usually you fly over there creatures and kill there artifact/enchantment, Thada Adel, Acquisitor is also very nice because you can attack a blue player which makes it unblockable and fetch up for a sol ring or top early game and better stuff late game.
6. Misdirection, it works alright, I dont really like it to be honest, even though its like a FoW a lot of times its too situational and I go some games without casting it.
7. Praetor's Counsel, While it has a high mana cost, this card will win you the game late game by default, it usually fetches me multiple counters, a tutor, and a bunch of other good things and you dont have to discard anything... pretty amazing
8. Vedalken Orrery, Vedalken Orrery is very good because it has amazing syngery with Future sight, seedborn muse and other things. It also allows you to cast your general at end of turn so it has a better chance of survival, solid choice.
I guess your kinda right for your take on consecrated sphinx, it's just so good of a card that it really doesnt matter.
Sphinx is such a good card that I wouldn't consider cutting it from the deck. It does not have the best synergy with Damia, but it can ultimately draw you more cards and it is an awesome Tooth and Nail target with Seedborn or Glen Elendra.
I took a look at your list and it seems really heavy on the high end of things. Do you have any problem with decks that go off early? I really need to do things turns 3-6 and it seems that you might be lacking in action early on.
1. Azusa, Lost but Seeking, I personally love this card with Damia out on the field, it allows you to pitch those 2-3 land cards in your hand without being restricted so you can draw a lot next turn. It's also a very solid card on its own if you play it properly.
Azusa seems interesting but I have wondered if she is too fragile for the deck. I think Exploration or Burgeoning might be stronger because they can come down on the first turn and are harder to kill. However she certainly has a splashier effect, but I feel that Burgeoning will net you as many lands drops if not more.
3. Riptide Laboratory, I found that this can be very useful and should definetly be played as one of your lands, its a very easy way to save your damia from dying multiple times, as its cast begins to cost to much. Its also works with Trinket Mage for extra 1 or less tutors. Very solid.
I have wondered about this card as well, but I have a really hard time finding space. I have limited slots for utility lands and I am fond of Wasteland and Strip Mine as they are always helpful. Maybe I will pick up a Laboratory to try it out.
4. Myojin of Night's Reach, This card, well opponents hate it and it can only be casted to get the counter so no Tooth and Nail. Although everytime I have ever casted and it resolved I win, but its mana cost is very clunky and I usually only cast it if I have cabal coffers, urborg. Definetly considering cutting this eventually.
Personally, I would cut this. It has such an underwhelming effect for the mana cost. If I really needed to make my opponents discard, which I rarely do, I would rather have Mindtwist.
5. Trygon Predator and Thada Adel, Acquisitor, are just amazing utility cards, trygon predator is just so good because it has Flying, usually you fly over there creatures and kill there artifact/enchantment, Thada Adel, Acquisitor is also very nice because you can attack a blue player which makes it unblockable and fetch up for a sol ring or top early game and better stuff late game.
7. Praetor's Counsel, While it has a high mana cost, this card will win you the game late game by default, it usually fetches me multiple counters, a tutor, and a bunch of other good things and you dont have to discard anything... pretty amazing
8. Vedalken Orrery, Vedalken Orrery is very good because it has amazing syngery with Future sight, seedborn muse and other things. It also allows you to cast your general at end of turn so it has a better chance of survival, solid choice.
I lumped these together because I think they all fall in the same category (excluding Predator, which can be really amazing value if you can get it to live but I never can). These cards are "comfort" cards in that they happen to have a really powerful effect but they are missing something in order to be truly worth being in the deck.
- Thada Adel has a really powerful effect, but in order to get it you have to cast her and wait a turn to attack. In addition to this, taking cards from your opponent's library just isn't that great of a strategy(Bribery excluded). I would much rather be digging for a powerful effect of my own than getting extra Sol Rings.
- Praetor's Council is simply too expensive. If you are at the point in the game where you have enough mana to cast Council and then do a bunch of other stuff, well, you probably should have won already. It can be good, but more often than not it is going to sit in your hand doing nothing. Look at Time Spiral in comparison. It gives you a similar effect but costs 0 instead of 5GGG.
- Vedalken Orrery can be good as well but if you are really able to abuse it, you are probably already winning the game. If it isn't functioning well it is probably just eating some form of mass removal.
The deck needs cards that proactively advance your game plan, like efficient counters, cheap card draw, and mana ramp. Most of the time you can cut a splashy effect for something more efficient and your deck will run better as a result.
6. Misdirection, it works alright, I dont really like it to be honest, even though its like a FoW a lot of times its too situational and I go some games without casting it.
I think Misdirection can be really good, but it is mostly meta-game dependent. If you have lots of targeted spells that you need to redirect then it could be handy but otherwise it just ends up being a win-more card that waits to be useful. These are the kinds of cards that you should really avoid in a control deck as they just end up punishing you. Twincast seems amazing on paper and sometimes it will be really good, but it will end up being a dead card more often than not.
I played quite a few games with my deck today and I have to say that I am really happy with the balance in the deck right now. I feel like I always have counters/removal when I need them and I am consistently hitting my draw engines. Awesome play of the day: Mana Draining his Tezzeret into a fourth turn Terastodon blowing up most of his mana. That felt good!
Some changes:
Out - Exsanguinate, I just got tired of seeing it in my hand and really wanted a more efficient effect in its place.
In - Impulse, I need more cards that allow me to dig. This also has the side benefit of fixing my mana.
Out - Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, Teferi is good but after taking out Exsanguinate as a win condition I felt that giving my creatures flash just wasn't worth the slot. He also draws a good deal of attention in a multiplayer game.
In - Body Double, for the same mana cost as Teferi I get to copy the best creature in a graveyard. Time will tell how much utility this guy has, but he seems like he has far more utility and flexibility than Teferi.
I really want to find a way to fit more basic land, Mox Diamond, Pongify, and Crucible of Worlds back into my list but space is really tight. I don't know if I need more basics but I feel like I am cutting it close right now. Crucible/Diamond would be going in as more fixing and ramp. Pongify is just really awesome removal for one mana, but I can't seem to find anything worth cutting for it.
Myojin of Night's Reach is by no means underwhelming. For the cost of Mind Twisting a hand of seven, you get to force every opponent to discard, giving you free reign to play whatever busted stuff you want.
Myojin of Night's Reach is by no means underwhelming. For the cost of Mind Twisting a hand of seven, you get to force every opponent to discard, giving you free reign to play whatever busted stuff you want.
The problem is that it isn't a very political card. If you can resolve it and use its effect and then defend yourself, you were going to win the game anyway. Lots of high mana cards have really splashy effects but they aren't worth it unless they are winning you the game. I would much rather have a removal, card draw, or a counter in that slot. I personally feel that Mind Twist is better for the job because it only angers one person and can be cast much earlier when you need it more.
I have been playing more 1v1 than multiplayer lately, so my deck may reflect that. I agree that it is good for the deck to have ways to kill everyone at once if you just need to end the game. My primary problem with Oona is that I don't really want to see her unless I have infinite mana already. I also don't really want to see Vorinclex either because he is an 8-mana target on my head.
All EDH is local. Against the players that I play against the most, we have lots of things happening turns 3-6 and it is critical that I am able to interact as early as turn 2. Your metagame might be slower and better suited to big, splashy creatures. I have tried to minimize the number of cards that don't have value throughout the game and that is why my curve is so much lower. For my playstyle and meta it is sufficient to run a Time Warp or Exsanguinate as a win condition and focus everything else on disruption so that I am able to stabilize. Even with the amount of removal/counters I run, I still am unable to stop people from comboing off at times.
I would like to run more ramp in my list but in general I would rather run more lands than another ramp spell. I see that your list only runs 34 lands and I envy the space that creates but I need to hit every land drop. Also running a higher land density means that I can get more value out of my draw spells as I can simply dig for another land if I need to. A ramp spell isn't going to have that same effect as I can dig for it but then I have to invest mana into it to make it a land. This might be a reflection of my meta, I need to be doing more in the early game and I can't spend resources just ramping up because someone else will likely be winning the game. However, if you have any suggestions on what to cut I would be interested in hearing them.
- I found that the cycle lands were encouraging me to just cycle them and miss land drops. I really hate the tempo loss from lands coming into play tapped so I am averse to actually playing them. I ended up having mana issues (primarily not having enough U) and I figured anything that encouraged me to miss land drops is not helping my deck.
- Crucible of Worlds allows me to easily recur my fetch lands and rewards me for running more basics as I put some in place of the cycle lands. This was replacing Life from the Loam. As good as Life is, I was just never generating card advantage with it. Some cards don't fit our playstyle and I am still not convinced that Life is that great in my build as I play out of my graveyard so little.
- Cabal Coffers became a basic swamp as that is what I needed most of the time. The deck doesn't really need big mana, even in the lategame, and if Coffers is drawn without Urborg it just slows the deck down far too much. I dislike being being unable to cast my spells and the deck simply doesn't need that much black. Keeping a card in because "having lots of mana can be good!" just isn't justification enough for me.
- Intuition became Pongify because I wasn't able to abuse it when I cast it. I like that Pongify is really cheap non-conditional spot removal. In EDH turning a Sun Titan or Consecrated Sphinx into a 3/3 is definitely a win. If I end up drawing too much removal I have also considered Preordain or Ponder for this slot.
- Pact of Negation turned back into Force of Will. Yes, FoW is card disadvantage but I found that the deck would rather lose card advantage than the big hit in tempo that you get from Pact. You can also hardcast FoW later in the game and then untap.
I'm at work, and although I have read most of the really really really long posts in this thread, I don't have time to even begin commenting on the comments. I will later. For now, I'd just like to say: No love for Rite of Replication??????? Seriously, kicked on a Consecrated Sphinx or a Primeval Titan is bananas, and totally epic, and worthy of the annals of EDH history.
love_blanket: I see you took out Exsanguinate. I understand that. A good spell that you could have replaced it with would have been Profane Command. Such amazing utility in one card. Kill someone, or kill a creature (I'm looking at you, Ulamog ಠ_ಠ), or rez a dude, or make some stuff fearsome (I've never actually used that one in a game). ****, why settle for one when you can do two of the four. Sweet.
"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
Yeah, I wanted to give credit where I felt it was due. My list has certainly changed quite a bit from the budget list where I started out!
I'm at work, and although I have read most of the really really really long posts in this thread, I don't have time to even begin commenting on the comments. I will later. For now, I'd just like to say: No love for Rite of Replication??????? Seriously, kicked on a Consecrated Sphinx or a Primeval Titan is bananas, and totally epic, and worthy of the annals of EDH history.
Rite of Replication is certainly a haymaker. I have been playing lots of 1v1 lately and I think my list has evolved away from splashy, haymaker type cards. I would like to see how well my build does whenever I get to play some multiplayer again. I am wondering if the low-cost efficiency approach will leave me wishing I had big mana sinks or if I will be able to control the game more effectively because of it.
love_blanket: I see you took out Exsanguinate. I understand that. A good spell that you could have replaced it with would have been Profane Command. Such amazing utility in one card. Kill someone, or kill a creature (I'm looking at you, Ulamog ಠ_ಠ), or rez a dude, or make some stuff fearsome (I've never actually used that one in a game). ****, why settle for one when you can do two of the four. Sweet.
Profane Command certainly warrants some consideration. It is flexible enough. I just found that there are few things that I actually like tapping out for. Maybe Profane will be one of them. I also play my deck in a much more controlling style than most. Again, I will see how effective this is when I can play some multiplayer.
What do you think of the new card forbidden alchemy? I thought is was interesting myself.
I personally consider to try the card in the slot of Recollect in my deck (-> utility with casting cost 3).
The graveyard-filling part of Forbidden Alchemy can be relevant in terms of virtual card-advantage, but this depends on the deck. Only practice will show the usefulness of the expensive flashback part, although a mana dump for the lategame is appreciated.
Otherwise a cantrip that digs four cards deep is a bit over the curve with casting cost 3, even at instant speed.
What do you think of the new card forbidden alchemy? I thought is was interesting myself.
I think it is certainly a strong card, but does not do enough to warrant a spot in my list as I don't utilize my graveyard that much. If you don't already run Ponder/Preordain/Impulse I would simply run one of those first. I just think that the deck has better one shot or recurring draw options available to it.
I am really excited for Snapcaster Mage as I currently have 32 targets for it, which is pretty amazing now that I count them up. I really like the versatility he gives you. Having a second Eternal Witness is just bonkers for this deck. Given that some of the best things the deck is doing involve casting spells this guy is a perfect fit. Plus the idea of reusing a Bribery or Tooth and Nail is pretty awesome. Even if you are just reusing a counter or removal spell you are getting really great value.
Any ideas on what to cut for Snapcaster?
I was thinking either Scroll Rack or Terastodon. Scroll Rack is awesome card manipulation but I have found that it can be inconsistent. Terastodon is splashy and powerful, but 8 mana is a lot and he is a wonderful Bribery target for your opponent. I am leaning toward Terastodon as I think the deck runs far more smoothly with a lower curve.
I have been thinking that Tezzeret the Seeker might be a good addition to the deck. I had him in a while back but took him out when I felt that space was getting tight.
Tezzeret can fetch ramp (Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Grim Monolith) or a suite of really useful artifacts (Oblivion Stone, Crucible of Worlds, Crystal Shard - especially good with Snapcaster). However we have no interest in using his ultimate and his +1 is of minimal value. Basically he will just come in and tutor an artifact or two into play and then die. He does tutor out cards that I want to see every game but may not be able to actually use a tutor spell on. Thoughts?
I think it is certainly a strong card, but does not do enough to warrant a spot in my list as I don't utilize my graveyard that much. If you don't already run Ponder/Preordain/Impulse I would simply run one of those first. I just think that the deck has better one shot or recurring draw options available to it.
I am really excited for Snapcaster Mage as I currently have 32 targets for it, which is pretty amazing now that I count them up. I really like the versatility he gives you. Having a second Eternal Witness is just bonkers for this deck. Given that some of the best things the deck is doing involve casting spells this guy is a perfect fit. Plus the idea of reusing a Bribery or Tooth and Nail is pretty awesome. Even if you are just reusing a counter or removal spell you are getting really great value.
Any ideas on what to cut for Snapcaster?
I was thinking either Scroll Rack or Terastodon. Scroll Rack is awesome card manipulation but I have found that it can be inconsistent. Terastodon is splashy and powerful, but 8 mana is a lot and he is a wonderful Bribery target for your opponent. I am leaning toward Terastodon as I think the deck runs far more smoothly with a lower curve.
I have been thinking that Tezzeret the Seeker might be a good addition to the deck. I had him in a while back but took him out when I felt that space was getting tight.
Tezzeret can fetch ramp (Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Grim Monolith) or a suite of really useful artifacts (Oblivion Stone, Crucible of Worlds, Crystal Shard - especially good with Snapcaster). However we have no interest in using his ultimate and his +1 is of minimal value. Basically he will just come in and tutor an artifact or two into play and then die. He does tutor out cards that I want to see every game but may not be able to actually use a tutor spell on. Thoughts?
Eternal Witness #2 looks fun. I would probably take out the Don, since you said you play mostly 1v1 and need that lower curve.
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"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
Eternal Witness #2 looks fun. I would probably take out the Don, since you said you play mostly 1v1 and need that lower curve.
That is my thought as well. Again, there are a ton of targets in the deck for him and his flexibility is amazing. Terastodon is certainly a great card but I think more impressive things could fit in his place.
I swapped Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out for Maze of Ith as I really like the early game/political uses of Maze. Urborg is great when you also have Coffers, but after cutting that I am hard pressed to find a reason to continue running it. The deck has very few black spells and the amount of fixing available to it means that the one black you need is usually easy to obtain.
I have been thinking of trying Sower of Temptation out in the deck, but I don't know if it would simply be a worse Control Magic or if Treachery would be a stronger card in the same slot. Creature theft effects are certainly useful and having a second Gilded Drake would be nice. I will swap out Terastodon for Sower until I am able to acquire a Snapcaster Mage.Terastodon stays until until he can be replaced by Snapcaster Mage.
I have also been thinking about trying out Nature's Claim but I don't know what I should swap it for. I really like Pongify as a one mana answer and I think Nature's Claim is a similarly powerful one mana spell. I keep getting tempted to cut down on the amount of card draw in my deck, but I think I am forgetting the games where that has really slowed me down. Overall, I think the deck could use more spot removal but I honestly don't know if I am playing competitive enough games for it to matter most of the time.
Mox Diamond is another solid card that I keep cutting from my list but again, I have trouble finding space for it. I don't really like cutting a land for it and most of my spells are more valuable as this point. Maybe Grim Monolith? I have been cutting my curve down and while Monolith can certainly power out an early Titan, Sphinx, or Damia that is usually when you want it the least because you are unable to protect it. Monolith has been very good for me in the past so maybe I just haven't drawn it in a while. I also might be overshadowing the times where you draw Mox Diamond and are unable to cast it or it immediately gets blown up.
Edit: Speaking of spot removal, I think the deck might really benefit from running more graveyard hate. I think Relic of Progenitus or Nihil Spellbomb might warrant consideration given how many decks play out of their graveyard. Bojuka Bog is great, but there have been times where I have to play it out before I can get full value out of it because I need the land. Having a second answer available to you seems really strong.
First of all, Forbidden Alchemy drops off my radar after careful consideration. I think i was fallen into euphoria after reading this article about the card
I am really excited for Snapcaster Mage as I currently have 32 targets for it, which is pretty amazing now that I count them up. I really like the versatility he gives you. Having a second Eternal Witness is just bonkers for this deck. Given that some of the best things the deck is doing involve casting spells this guy is a perfect fit. Plus the idea of reusing a Bribery or Tooth and Nail is pretty awesome. Even if you are just reusing a counter or removal spell you are getting really great value.
Snapcaster Mage looks promising. I count 31 sorcerys/instants in my deck. But on the other hand, only a few are worth the effort. I think the interaction with counterspells is his biggest strength and i can't estimate it's value at the moment. Targets like ramp, filter or tutors are middling. The problem in my deck: I don't play a dozen of instant-/sorcery-based removal. The Mage is much more potent in the opening post's decklist. I wonder how important is the fact, that it's so easy to recur Snapcaster Mage...
By the way, i have to ask about Crystal Shard and it's worth. I see the nasty interactions with some of your "enters the battlefield"-effects, including the Witness-Combo and Snapcaster Mage. But i can't imagine how often you target an opponent's creature, or save an own creature against removal. And is this card a dead draw in some situations? I only played Mimic Vat in the past and it was a funny card. But there were situations where it was very ineffective (especially on it's own) and i speculate that it can be compared to Crystal Shard in this case...
Nature's Claim... That's a though call. In my meta, powerful artifacts are often coupled with recursion-shenanigans, so this card would provoke a whole chain of investments on the opponent's table, while i would only pay 1 Mana...
I think you play a good bunch of removal, is another situational removal really necessary?
I think the deck might really benefit from running more graveyard hate. I think Relic of Progenitus or Nihil Spellbomb might warrant consideration given how many decks play out of their graveyard. Bojuka Bog is great, but there have been times where I have to play it out before I can get full value out of it because I need the land. Having a second answer available to you seems really strong.
Nihil Spellbomb is amazing graveyard hate and a no-brainer, i think it's one of my favorite Trinket Mage-targets in the lategame hehe. Relic of Progenitus is playable in your deck, but i depend to much on my graveyard and don't like it. I played Phyrexian Furnace in the past, which is moderate. Tormod's Crypt can be mentioned, too...
I also tried creatures with graveyard hate (Withered Wretch, Scavenging Ooze), but they didn't satisfied me.
In my opinion the strongest graveyard-hate are counterspells like Dissipate
I have been thinking that Tezzeret the Seeker might be a good addition to the deck. I had him in a while back but took him out when I felt that space was getting tight.
Tezzeret can fetch ramp (Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Grim Monolith) or a suite of really useful artifacts (Oblivion Stone, Crucible of Worlds, Crystal Shard - especially good with Snapcaster). However we have no interest in using his ultimate and his +1 is of minimal value. Basically he will just come in and tutor an artifact or two into play and then die. He does tutor out cards that I want to see every game but may not be able to actually use a tutor spell on. Thoughts?
I played Tezzeret, but only in Multiplayer. And Planeswalker suck in my group... To quote Silver Seraph: "No planeswalker is worth it to deal with all the solemns, tribe elders, witnesses, and yavimaya elders in the world."
I also tried Fabricate in his spot, but i had not enough relevant targets. (i used it to grab Wurmcoil Engine, which was alarming)
I think Tezzeret is ok as an one-shot effect (especially in 1vs1), because he puts the artifact directly onto the battlefield...
@Terastodon: The Bribery-argument against this card is very important in my group. This is the point, where Woodfall Primus wins, because he is a bad Bribery-target, although he provides similar power. Nevertheless the manacost-argument applies to both creatures.
First of all, Forbidden Alchemy drops off my radar after careful consideration. I think i was fallen into euphoria after reading this article about the card
Yeah, we all fall prey to new card smell. I think Innistrad has some really interesting things for constructed that aren't immediately apparent.
Snapcaster Mage looks promising. I count 31 sorcerys/instants in my deck. But on the other hand, only a few are worth the effort. I think the interaction with counterspells is his biggest strength and i can't estimate it's value at the moment. Targets like ramp, filter or tutors are middling. The problem in my deck: I don't play a dozen of instant-/sorcery-based removal. The Mage is much more potent in the opening post's decklist. I wonder how important is the fact, that it's so easy to recur Snapcaster Mage...
I think spot removal is really really good and I have rarely been disappointed to draw it. I think people run far too many bombs in EDH. Bombs draw attention your way and you usually won't be able to protect them. Plus most bomby creatures are just going to die to a board wipe. Again, I don't really like turning dudes sideways so I tried to build a spell-based control deck. I will certainly test out Snapcaster Mage (once I can get my hands on one!) and see if he turns out to be as good as he seems.
By the way, i have to ask about Crystal Shard and it's worth. I see the nasty interactions with some of your "enters the battlefield"-effects, including the Witness-Combo and Snapcaster Mage. But i can't imagine how often you target an opponent's creature, or save an own creature against removal. And is this card a dead draw in some situations? I only played Mimic Vat in the past and it was a funny card. But there were situations where it was very ineffective (especially on it's own) and i speculate that it can be compared to Crystal Shard in this case...
I don't think I have ever really regretted drawing Crystal Shard as it is just such a strong card. It keeps your opponents from tapping out, acts as protection for your creatures, and comboes with any number of creatures in your deck to create a soft lock. I have won a couple of games by just having Venser, Shaper Savant and Crystal Shard. Again, so many decks focus so heavily on bombs that they run very few small, efficient spells. You can really punish decks like that by using something as mana intensive as Shard + Mystic Snake to shut them down. It is at its best with Seedborn Muse which I still think you should be running. That is certainly one of the top 5 green creatures in Commander and really shines in any control deck.
Nature's Claim... That's a though call. In my meta, powerful artifacts are often coupled with recursion-shenanigans, so this card would provoke a whole chain of investments on the opponent's table, while i would only pay 1 Mana...
I think you play a good bunch of removal, is another situational removal really necessary?
You are likely right. I think I am prone to getting carried away in my quest for efficiency. It is likely overkill, but it might warrant consideration in the future. It is the kind of card that I think is really good in a deck like this and people tend to overlook it for something with a more powerful effect, like Relic Crush. For example, I am running Pongify and it has always been something that I am glad to see.
Nihil Spellbomb is amazing graveyard hate and a no-brainer, i think it's one of my favorite Trinket Mage-targets in the lategame hehe. Relic of Progenitus is playable in your deck, but i depend to much on my graveyard and don't like it. I played Phyrexian Furnace in the past, which is moderate. Tormod's Crypt can be mentioned, too...
I also tried creatures with graveyard hate (Withered Wretch, Scavenging Ooze), but they didn't satisfied me.
In my opinion the strongest graveyard-hate are counterspells like Dissipate
Yeah, I really want to find space for another graveyard hate spell. Any ideas? I am currently questioning Scroll Rack and Terastodon the most. Maybe I will try cutting Scroll Rack for Relic.
I played Tezzeret, but only in Multiplayer. And Planeswalker suck in my group... To quote Silver Seraph: "No planeswalker is worth it to deal with all the solemns, tribe elders, witnesses, and yavimaya elders in the world."
I also tried Fabricate in his spot, but i had not enough relevant targets. (i used it to grab Wurmcoil Engine, which was alarming)
I think Tezzeret is ok as an one-shot effect (especially in 1vs1), because he puts the artifact directly onto the battlefield...
I agree, I really think Tezzeret would just end up being win more. As much as I would like to see many of the artifacts that he would tutor for, I really don't think that I want to create deck space just to tutor for those artifacts.
@Terastodon: The Bribery-argument against this card is very important in my group. This is the point, where Woodfall Primus wins, because he is a bad Bribery-target, although he provides similar power. Nevertheless the manacost-argument applies to both creatures.
Again, I don't like packing my deck with good Bribery targets. I know most people would grab Consecrated Sphinx or Primeval Titan instead, but I still don't like having him waiting to screw me over. Any suggestions on a creature to put in his place? I would really like a Snapcaster Mage to go there, but I don't know how long it will be before I can acquire one given that he is the really hot card from the new set. In the mean time I was thinking about running Reanimate in that slot instead. Reanimate can be a dead draw at times, but for a one mana investment I think it might be an interesting effect to try. I can nab one creature out of any graveyard and use it early in the game for value or late in the game to grab a bomb. The life loss is insignificant and it is a more permanent effect than Necromancy, Animate Dead, or Dance of the Dead.
The order on each list roughly reflects what I swapped for what.
Explosive Vegetation and Scroll Rack were cut for Ponder and Preordain. Explosive Vegetation is card advantage, but costing four and only grabbing basics really limits it. At four mana, I really want to be doing something more. Scroll Rack is a fine card and wasn't terrible for me, it just wasn't great. Ponder and Preordain are both ways to smooth my draws and help me dig for the things I need. They also benefit from the increased amount of fetchlands.
Body Double became Reanimate because I would rather by 1 mana than 5 mana to get that effect. Reanimate is more permanent than Animate Dead and costs a single mana. Body Double is better in a few corner cases such as when I am at a low life total or Homeward Path is out, but overall I feel like those drawbacks are outweighed by the mana cost.
Terastodon became Nature's Claim because the Don is an awesome Bribery target and he simply costs too much. I like being able to have more effects per turn and Claim is really efficient, political removal.
I am trying Arcane Laboratory in place of Mana Reflection. As my curve dropped lower, I felt Mana Reflection just doesn't pull its weight. Arcane Laboratory is good in that it partially protects itself and allows you to lock out the table with quite a few cards in the deck. Including Arcane Laboratory as my "I win" card in the deck allowed me to swap out Time Warp. I was playing Time Warp as a way to say, "I have enough mana to recur this infinitely and unless you can disrupt me, I win". Laboratory allows a lock with more cards in the deck than Time Warp so it was an easy cut. Snapcaster Mage found his home there.
I cut Rhystic Study for Stifle more because I want Stifle than anything. Rhystic Study is a fine card but I have never really loved it. Stifle gives me another way to counter/interact with things that are already on the board at a very efficient mana cost. If Stifle proves to be good, maybe I will try to find space for Trickbind as well.
Tolaria West came in for Volrath's Stronghold as I don't think I activated Stronghold a single time that it was in the deck. Tolaria West allows me to tutor for a variety of useful things and it has the benefit of producing U mana which is what the deck needs the most. Urborg was swapped with Maze of Ith because I really missed having Maze to clog up the board. It is a great political card and gives me another awesome target for Vesuva. Urborg was mainly in for mana-fixing at this point and I don't know if the deck plays enough black to justify running it. If I am having problems hitting my black mana I might consider putting it back in.
I think that it's a good direction to lower the mana curve.
But i would consider to eye Arcane Laboratory, because it feels clunky and Mana Reflection is in one league with Seedborn Muse...
After this shock, i reconsider to increase the artifact/land ramping in my deck significantly. Speed turned out to be superimportant in my new meta - so i will follow your path of lower costed effects.
I think that it's a good direction to lower the mana curve. But i would consider to eye Arcane Laboratory, because it feels clunky and Mana Reflection is in one league with Seedborn Muse...
Yeah, after thinking on it, I decided that Arcane Laboratory is a bit too clunky. Even though Time Warp is a more fragile win condition it involves few enough interactions that you can usually push it through, especially against players that don't run counter spells. I put Time Warp back in and swapped Nature's Claim for Crucible of Worlds. I think I really want to run both Crucible and Life from the Loam as ways to ensure that I hit my land drops. I think Nature's Claim might be overloading on removal a bit, especially when Snapcaster Mage is giving me a chance to flashback anything I use.
I recognize that Mana Reflection is really good but Crucible of Worlds is solid, small advantage. I am always happy to see Crucible, whereas many times I don't feel that I can cast Mana Reflection profitably. Also my curve has gotten so low that I don't feel that Mana Reflection is providing me that great of a benefit.
After this shock, i reconsider to increase the artifact/land ramping in my deck significantly. Speed turned out to be superimportant in my new meta - so i will follow your path of lower costed effects.
This is a good reason to run more spot removal. Sometimes you need to kill a general early on. Look at Beast Within or Pongify for example. Would you rather your opponent swing at you with Kaalia and a buddy or with a vanilla 3/3? I have been totally wrecked by land destruction and if that is your new meta, you might need to start running more artifact sources.
It is also another good argument for lowering your curve. Your creature based Genesis engine can be very powerful, but it is also very mana intensive. I am also getting to the point where the only things in my deck above four mana are important bombs:
I mean, how many bombs does your deck really need? I really only want to see these cards when I am ahead and can defend them. I can wait a while to draw them and in the mean time I am spending my resources defending myself and shaping the board.
You should post an updated version of your list when you get the chance!
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7 Damia, Sage of Stone
Acceleration(5):
0 Mox Diamond
0 Mana Crypt
1 Exploration
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
Removal(8):
1 Nature's Claim
1 Repeal
3 Beast Within
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Putrefy
3 Oblivion Stone
4 Damnation
Card Draw(10):
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Impulse
2 Sylvan Library
3 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Necropotence
4 Fact or Fiction
5 Ad Nauseam
Tutors(8):
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Lim Dul's Vault
3 Intuition
3 Fabricate
3 Praetor's Grasp
4 Mystical Teachings
0 Pact of Negation
1 Stifle
2 Negate
2 Mana Leak
2 Muddle the Mixture
2 Mana Drain
2 Remand
2 Counterspell
3 Hinder
3 Voidslime
3 Forbid
4 Cryptic Command
5 Force of Will
Recursion/Utility(7):
1 Reanimate
2 Regrowth
2 Life from the Loam
3 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
Creatures(9):
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gilded Drake
2 Dark Confidant
3 Eternal Witness
3 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
Utility Lands(9):
0 Ancient Tomb
0 Strip Mine
0 Wasteland
0 Bojuka Bog
0 Academy Ruins
0 Dryad Arbor
0 Lonely Sandbar
0 Tranquil Thicket
0 Barren Moor
0 Command Tower
0 City of Brass
0 Reflecting Pool
0 Underground Sea
0 Tropical Island
0 Bayou
0 Watery Grave
0 Breeding Pool
0 Overgrown Tomb
0 Sunken Ruins
0 Flooded Grove
0 Twilight Mire
0 Yavimaya Coast
0 Underground River
Fetch(9):
0 Polluted Delta
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Verdant Catacombs
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Flooded Strand
0 Marsh Flats
0 Bloodstained Mire
0 Windswept Heath
0 Wooded Foothills
Basics(7):
4x Island
2x Forest
1x Swamp
1 Damia, Sage of Stone
//land
5 Island
5 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Command Tower
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Barren Moor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tolaria West
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 High Market
1 Homeward Path
1 Vesuva
1 Dust Bowl
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Trinket Mage
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Mulldrifter
1 Genesis
1 Shriekmaw
1 Acidic Slime
1 Duplicant
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Primeval Titan
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Woodfall Primus
//artifact
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Skullclamp
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Expedition Map
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Crucible of Worlds
//enchantment
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Future Sight
1 Mana Reflection
//instant
1 Brainstorm
1 Impulse
1 Mana Drain
1 Counterspell
1 Intuition
1 Forbid
1 Hinder
1 Spell Crumple
1 Dissipate
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Putrefy
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Force of Will
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Life from the Loam
1 Regrowth
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Cultivate
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Deep Analysis
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Damnation
1 Bribery
1 All is Dust
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Decree of Pain
1 Time Stretch
1) Many players don't like to play against hardcontrol decks, but i think our decks can be a gain for most playgroups. Sure, you play your Damia pile for the purpose of winning, but you have very much interactions with other players and you don't play just for the win like a combo player, who only intent to develop and protect his winning combo.
I suggest this philosophy: Think about Damia as a tough and smart police woman! It's possible to ingratiate yourself with other players, for example by preventing stuff like Armageddon or by destroying hated permanents. In a game, where you achieve success with your efforts and you are not recognized as the egocentric comboplayer, you have the possibility to survive long enough to overwhelm the remaining players.
2) I usually win the game with a small number of the following cards:
3) I don't like to donate tokens to opponents, so i don't play Beast Within or Terastodon, although this cards are good. In this place i prefer Woodfall Primus and other disruptive creatures you didn't mention. I also don't like constant sources of self-damaging, so i play without for example Mana Crypt. But if this is no problem for you, maybe Necropotence is worth to mention. Vampiric Tutor is strong, especially with Damia, but i'm afraid that this can pull aggro of players, because this looks like a combo player's gameplay. If this is no problem, Insidious Dreams could be a vaild option with Damia.
4) I play more one-shot effects, which is much of a deck building decision. I think engines are great, especially in commander. But many engines have no immediate effect, so sometimes they are doing nothing until the time where they are destroyed. This is where cards like Deep Analysis shine, while a Rhystic Study in the lategame is often a bad joke. I think the combination of both - one-shot effects and engines - is a good decision, while a personal focus should be taken. The best example for the synergy of both domains are cantrips like Preordain or Impulse - they give the whole deck more flow and help to find needed cards (including the engines!).
3) I played cards like Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Exploration, but in the meantime i prefer mana fixers (with card advantage) like Kodama's Reach and Cultivate. Maybe only Oracle of Mul Daya is strong enough on it's own. I think it's a valid decision to play even more ramp as you do, but you have to care, because this strategy can be recognised as greedy. Nevertheless it's a very good idea to focus on lands with Damia, an this is the reason you find cards like Expedition Map and Sylvan Scrying in my list.
6) I still have problems to find the ideal amount of removal and counterspells. There are situations, where i can't find the needed piece, mostly when my recursion engines are getting disrupted.
7) The mana curve is another problem department in my deck. Damia is begging for low costed spells, but we don't want to rely on her to much, so we are asked for the middle way. The decisions are hard, for example i play Recollect over Restock and Counterspell over Cryptic Command, just for mana curve purposes.
[Edit] 8) I played Mindslicer some time ago and it was terrible with all the counterspells and other important stuff you need to hold on your hand. Some people suggest discard like this and for sure, there are Damia-decks, that can make profit from this idea, but not mine.
[Edit2] updated decklist: -Recollect, +Putrefy
1.) I agree, I think control is one of the best strategies for a multiplayer environment. You need other's help and being able to actually answer things is crucial in getting to the late game.
2.) I have shuffled Future Sight in and out of the deck. It can be really powerful, but the mana cost is so high that I rarely want to invest in casting it. I guess I have Exsanguinate in the same slot that many people have Avenger of Zendikar. With so many people running Avenger I should probably pick one up and at least try it out.
3.) I feel like you should at least try Beast Within, the token is a small price to pay for being able to answer any permanent at instant speed. I have never had the token be relevant. I have considered Woodfall Primus but I just don't like the idea of paying 8 to destroy a single permanent. However I might try him in the space of Terastodon but Terastodon seems slightly better as he can hit more stuff.
Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb, Fetchlands, and Phyrexian Arena are all ways to speed up the process of stabilizing. The life loss has never been an issue for me, and the acceleration is just so nuts. In the long run I feel that I actually take less damage because I am able to stabilize and prevent damage from getting through. If you have access to it, I would seriously consider running Crypt in the deck. Your life total is only important as long as it isn't zero. Exsanguinate is another way to get a shot in the arm if you end up taking too much.
I would certainly run Vampiric Tutor it is just a great utility card and I wouldn't worry that people were thinking I was going to combo off, because most of the time you aren't! I have thought about Insidious Dreams but I always feel like I can find more problems with it than upsides. It may be worth testing but I would rather have Fact or Fiction or something similar for the same mana.
4.) I agree that one shot effects are necessary I don't think that I have the perfect balance yet. Out of Ponder, Preordain, and Impulse which do you like the most? I would lean towards Impulse as I like instant speed draw most.
5.) This deck certainly rewards you for focusing on lands. I run Exploration because I am always happy to see it and I have never really had anyone complain about it. I have also cut the land tutoring from my deck, but I have been rethinking that lately. Have you tried Crop Rotation? I have always liked having an instant speed land tutor.
6.) The balance issue is difficult and mostly meta dependent. If people are trying to be aggro or combo off early in the game, you really need more spot removal and cheap counters, but if you are always getting to the lategame I would focus on the higher end and board sweepers.
7.) Curve is hugely important in a control deck and I am still tweaking mine. However the raw power of Restock and Cryptic Command mean that I would rather make cuts at the high end of my curve than take them from the deck.
8.) The only discard I have seriously considered is Mind Twist but I can never find space for it.
Some questions about your deck:
- How does the Genesis + Mulldrifter/Shriekmaw/Fleshbag Marauder/Krosan Tusker engine work out for you? I have an aversion to playing creatures so sometimes I ignore potentially powerful interactions like that.
- Have you tried Scroll Rack? It is really, really good in this deck and can be dropped early on to help you hit your land drops, find removal, etc.
- Do you like Maze of Ith in the deck? I recently cut it from my list as I felt that I wasn't utilizing it very much. If people were attacking me it was usually with enough damage that it didn't matter or I was in control of the game and I wished Maze was another land. There is also a lot of shroud running around so I didn't always have a chance to target something. I do love the card though and recognize that it is great value. It might get put back in purely for nostalgia's sake.
Yes, Impulse is by far the best of these cantrips. I think i play this card in a slot, where i could play additional ramp (for example Farseek) instead. There is only a limited number of slots for utility cards and i prefer cantrips over the small ramp, because they are better in the lategame. As a side note: Brainstorm and Impulse are both great, but Telling Time is underperforming. It's strange, because it's designed as a hybrid of both - but i never started to like it...
No i didn't. But the instant speed is an interesting idea... You could intimidate other players with a crazy "attack me and you will feel the pain of my Stip Mine/Wasteland destroying your loved [insert land]!!!". Bojuka Bog is also much more potent at instant speed. But i think other lands have no additional value at instant speed and i am not a fan of card disadvantage
I built a Teneb, the Harvester deck before and this group of creatures is some kind of the spiritual heritage. The whole thing will not win the game on it's own, but the interactions can stall the board pretty good. But the creature count for Genesis is very much at the minimum end.
A good argument for Krosan Tusker and Yavimaya Elder: They fix mana, but they are no dead draws in the mid-/lategame, because they cantrip. And btw: Genesis+Yavimaya Elder+Skullclamp once won the game for me. :xd:
I think Fleshbag Marauder depends on the metagame. Wrath of God-effects are omnipresent in my group, so a recurring Fleshbag Marauder is very effective at supressing my opponents creatures.
In the end, the package is worth the slots. I think, it has a good synergy with Damia, Sage of Stone, because i don't rely on the graveyard that much (compared to Teneb, the Harvester), so it's nice to have and the opponents are forced to deal with my graveyard.
It's a shame, i don't play Scroll Rack because it overcharges my mind with all the possible decisions! Everytime i played it in other decks, i needed so much time to consider the options, that my opponents began to hate me. But this is an individual problem
I agree with your suggestion in the primer - Maze of Ith is a "meta-game call". We have a token-based Rhys the Redeemed-deck in the group and Maze of Ith is absolutely useless against his strategy, but there is also a Rafiq of the Many deck around, where the Maze is amazing. But in general - Commander is a format full of big creatures, i think the Maze has enough uses - especially with all the ramp, which compensates the speed drawback.
The problem with cantrips is that I have a hard time slotting them in my deck. I value my ramp highly because I like having my mana fixed as early as possible. I also want to cast Damia sooner rather than later but maybe I should try this approach as ramp is dead late game. On the other hand, it is such an advantage for this deck to have more mana than anyone else. It allows the deck to cast more spells per turn or leave mana open while still advancing your board state. Just like a standard deck, we need to hit every single land drop so if I cut ramp I would really have to replace it with lands and not card drawing. Card draw does not necessarily equate to ramp because sometimes you will Brainstorm looking for that third/fourth land and it just isn't there.
I think one of BUG's unseen strengths is in abusing lands. People tend to leave lands alone so relying on them is one of the stronger strategies. I have cut all of the land tutors from my deck as I don't really have a hard time finding the lands I need. The only land combination I really want is Coffers/Urborg and I don't want to set that up until I know I can protect it or utilize it.
I certainly agree that forcing your opponents to deal with your graveyard is a good strategy. I guess I have been Bogged one two many times for me to rely on it overmuch. The Genesis engine seems really intriguing and it is something that I am liable to overlook because too me it seems slow. However if it is late game and you don't have a whole lot to do with your mana, it really isn't that much for the repeatable effects you are getting. I think in my quest for efficiency I ignore how effective slower paced plays can be. Hence me putting the Life from the Loam + Cycle lands engine back into my deck.
Yeah, cards like Scroll Rack definitely land a bit more on the challenging end of the spectrum. This can be a downside of the deck because it is substantially harder to play if you just want to sit around and drink beer.
Yeah I think I should try to fit it back in, I would also like to put Mox Diamond back in but finding two card slots can be a challenge. I think that I get ahead of myself with theorizing about the deck. I make changes without having a chance to test them out! Hopefully I will get to play some this weekend and try out a few of my recent changes.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/i-can-only-win-by-taking-extra-turns/
But anyways, lately I've been cutting cards that have bad synergy with Damia and adding good cards that have good synergy with Damia. I don't play cards like consecrated sphinx, because while it is amazing to have one, it usually gets killed and if I fill up my hand with damia in play, I wont be drawing my next turn. I've had that happen to me a couple of times and it sucks. I usually win after playing tooth and nail, it's a amazing card. But lately, I've been wanting to cut some more stuff and add some more ramp spells as I only play a couple. Also, adding more counters as people lately have been really messing with me after they know what this deck is capable of.
Stuff I want to add:
Forbid - Amazing with Damia, definetly going to add soon.
Dream Halls - This is a tricky one, while this card can be amazing since you can discard and pitch your hand to play big things, and get the card draw back with Damia, it allows your opponents to use it too. But my idea on this card is that if your opponents start using it they are going to loose card advantage without a good draw engine like damia, and I'll keep refilling my hand with Damia. What do you guys think about this one, Im gonna try playtesting it soon. The other interesting thing about this is because this essentially makes damia cost 3uu, because the turn you play Dream Halls you can discard a black, blue or green card to cast damia, alot of sick opportunitys here with this card but a lot of draw backs at the same time.
Palinchron - With tooth and nail and 11 mana using it, there is a combo where you instantly mill everyone and win. Definetly gonna play it, which requires Oona, Vorinclex, Palinchron and a clone.
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger - Read above
Deserted Temple - Can be amazing to untap a cabal coffers or cradle.
Oona, Queen of Fae - read vorinclex
Skyshroud Claim - more ramp
Cultivate - more ramp
Grim Monolith - more ramp, a better mana vault
Voidslime - counter/stifle
Crucible of Worlds - self explained
Sunder - can win games with good board control
Mana Reflection - amazing mana doubler
Although its getting really hard to make cuts for this deck. Im slowly getting closer to the deck I want 100%. If any of you guys have questions on why I play a certain card just ask, thanks!
Consecrated Sphinx won me the game very often (it even won the game for an opponent once, because he stole her with Bribery hehe). I would never consider it a bad card. And i see no "bad synergy" with Damia... I never want both on the battlefield, but only because one of two is enough to win the game.
This depends on the type of deck you play. A combo deck with Damia, Sage of Stone can go off with Dream Halls on the battlefield. In this case i would expect, that you cast Dream Halls and win in the same or next turn. This would minimize the amount of possibilities, that your opponents gain through this card.
A control deck with Damia, Sage of Stone can suffer from Dream Halls under several circumstances. For example: I don't like to face Progenitus over and over again. It's hard to control such situations for a long time, even with Damia's draw and the acceleration of Dream Halls.
Many players in this forum recommend this combo for Damia. I don't play it, because Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger has several drawbacks (not as combo piece, but as a card on it's own). 8 Mana is a point in the game, where the ramp is not necessarily needed and seems greedy - bad for an easy destructible creature. His second ability draws a lot of hate, but is potent. My biggest fear: To face him after a Bribery on me...
And Oona, Queen of Fae is not that impressive on the hand, if you ask me
Here are my questions:
1) How did Azusa, Lost but Seeking work for you?
2) Why are you playing Minamo, School at Water's Edge?
3) Is the whole Riptide Laboratory-thing worth it?
4) What's your thoughts on Myojin of Night's Reach?
5) Do you often connect with Trygon Predator and Thada Adel, Acquisitor? I played Wrexial, the Risen Deep some time ago, but without success.
6) How did Misdirection work for you? I often regret not playing it...
7) Whats your experience with Praetor's Counsel?
8) How important is Vedalken Orrery for your deck?
I guess your kinda right for your take on consecrated sphinx, it's just so good of a card that it really doesnt matter.
1. Azusa, Lost but Seeking, I personally love this card with Damia out on the field, it allows you to pitch those 2-3 land cards in your hand without being restricted so you can draw a lot next turn. It's also a very solid card on its own if you play it properly.
2. Minamo, School at Water's Edge, Honestly that's just in there for tech, I never really use its ability, I still have this left in here after using Vorosh for so long.
3. Riptide Laboratory, I found that this can be very useful and should definetly be played as one of your lands, its a very easy way to save your damia from dying multiple times, as its cast begins to cost to much. Its also works with Trinket Mage for extra 1 or less tutors. Very solid.
4. Myojin of Night's Reach, This card, well opponents hate it and it can only be casted to get the counter so no Tooth and Nail. Although everytime I have ever casted and it resolved I win, but its mana cost is very clunky and I usually only cast it if I have cabal coffers, urborg. Definetly considering cutting this eventually.
5. Trygon Predator and Thada Adel, Acquisitor, are just amazing utility cards, trygon predator is just so good because it has Flying, usually you fly over there creatures and kill there artifact/enchantment, Thada Adel, Acquisitor is also very nice because you can attack a blue player which makes it unblockable and fetch up for a sol ring or top early game and better stuff late game.
6. Misdirection, it works alright, I dont really like it to be honest, even though its like a FoW a lot of times its too situational and I go some games without casting it.
7. Praetor's Counsel, While it has a high mana cost, this card will win you the game late game by default, it usually fetches me multiple counters, a tutor, and a bunch of other good things and you dont have to discard anything... pretty amazing
8. Vedalken Orrery, Vedalken Orrery is very good because it has amazing syngery with Future sight, seedborn muse and other things. It also allows you to cast your general at end of turn so it has a better chance of survival, solid choice.
Sphinx is such a good card that I wouldn't consider cutting it from the deck. It does not have the best synergy with Damia, but it can ultimately draw you more cards and it is an awesome Tooth and Nail target with Seedborn or Glen Elendra.
I took a look at your list and it seems really heavy on the high end of things. Do you have any problem with decks that go off early? I really need to do things turns 3-6 and it seems that you might be lacking in action early on.
Azusa seems interesting but I have wondered if she is too fragile for the deck. I think Exploration or Burgeoning might be stronger because they can come down on the first turn and are harder to kill. However she certainly has a splashier effect, but I feel that Burgeoning will net you as many lands drops if not more.
I have wondered about this card as well, but I have a really hard time finding space. I have limited slots for utility lands and I am fond of Wasteland and Strip Mine as they are always helpful. Maybe I will pick up a Laboratory to try it out.
Personally, I would cut this. It has such an underwhelming effect for the mana cost. If I really needed to make my opponents discard, which I rarely do, I would rather have Mindtwist.
I lumped these together because I think they all fall in the same category (excluding Predator, which can be really amazing value if you can get it to live but I never can). These cards are "comfort" cards in that they happen to have a really powerful effect but they are missing something in order to be truly worth being in the deck.
- Thada Adel has a really powerful effect, but in order to get it you have to cast her and wait a turn to attack. In addition to this, taking cards from your opponent's library just isn't that great of a strategy(Bribery excluded). I would much rather be digging for a powerful effect of my own than getting extra Sol Rings.
- Praetor's Council is simply too expensive. If you are at the point in the game where you have enough mana to cast Council and then do a bunch of other stuff, well, you probably should have won already. It can be good, but more often than not it is going to sit in your hand doing nothing. Look at Time Spiral in comparison. It gives you a similar effect but costs 0 instead of 5GGG.
- Vedalken Orrery can be good as well but if you are really able to abuse it, you are probably already winning the game. If it isn't functioning well it is probably just eating some form of mass removal.
The deck needs cards that proactively advance your game plan, like efficient counters, cheap card draw, and mana ramp. Most of the time you can cut a splashy effect for something more efficient and your deck will run better as a result.
I think Misdirection can be really good, but it is mostly meta-game dependent. If you have lots of targeted spells that you need to redirect then it could be handy but otherwise it just ends up being a win-more card that waits to be useful. These are the kinds of cards that you should really avoid in a control deck as they just end up punishing you. Twincast seems amazing on paper and sometimes it will be really good, but it will end up being a dead card more often than not.
I played quite a few games with my deck today and I have to say that I am really happy with the balance in the deck right now. I feel like I always have counters/removal when I need them and I am consistently hitting my draw engines. Awesome play of the day: Mana Draining his Tezzeret into a fourth turn Terastodon blowing up most of his mana. That felt good!
Some changes:
Out - Exsanguinate, I just got tired of seeing it in my hand and really wanted a more efficient effect in its place.
In - Impulse, I need more cards that allow me to dig. This also has the side benefit of fixing my mana.
Out - Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, Teferi is good but after taking out Exsanguinate as a win condition I felt that giving my creatures flash just wasn't worth the slot. He also draws a good deal of attention in a multiplayer game.
In - Body Double, for the same mana cost as Teferi I get to copy the best creature in a graveyard. Time will tell how much utility this guy has, but he seems like he has far more utility and flexibility than Teferi.
I really want to find a way to fit more basic land, Mox Diamond, Pongify, and Crucible of Worlds back into my list but space is really tight. I don't know if I need more basics but I feel like I am cutting it close right now. Crucible/Diamond would be going in as more fixing and ramp. Pongify is just really awesome removal for one mana, but I can't seem to find anything worth cutting for it.
Personally, I think you are making a mistake in not running Palinchron and Oona, Queen of the Fae to pull of a guaranteed lethal Tooth and Nail. You don't even need Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger to go with Palinchron, going TnN for Palinchron + Eternal Witness into TnN for Primeval Titan for Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Cabal Coffers + Phyrexian Metamorph, make infinite mana, Metamorph into Witness into Tooth for Oona does it just fine.
Palinchron also offers you another infinite mana combo with Mana Reflection
Oona, Queen of the Fae can actually be a potent win condition outside of the TnN combo. Grim Monolith + Mana Reflection lets you kill a player for U/ each. And getting out a ton of lands + Mana Reflection and Seedborn Muse can give you enough mana power to exile huge chunks of deck at once, clogging up the board with fliers and sealing the game.
Also, I run even more ramp than you do, and I'm never unhappy to see it. In addition to every ramp spell you have, I also run Rampant Growth, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Solemn Simulacrum, and Explosive Vegetation. I also run Mana Vault in with my mana rocks.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
The problem is that it isn't a very political card. If you can resolve it and use its effect and then defend yourself, you were going to win the game anyway. Lots of high mana cards have really splashy effects but they aren't worth it unless they are winning you the game. I would much rather have a removal, card draw, or a counter in that slot. I personally feel that Mind Twist is better for the job because it only angers one person and can be cast much earlier when you need it more.
I have been playing more 1v1 than multiplayer lately, so my deck may reflect that. I agree that it is good for the deck to have ways to kill everyone at once if you just need to end the game. My primary problem with Oona is that I don't really want to see her unless I have infinite mana already. I also don't really want to see Vorinclex either because he is an 8-mana target on my head.
All EDH is local. Against the players that I play against the most, we have lots of things happening turns 3-6 and it is critical that I am able to interact as early as turn 2. Your metagame might be slower and better suited to big, splashy creatures. I have tried to minimize the number of cards that don't have value throughout the game and that is why my curve is so much lower. For my playstyle and meta it is sufficient to run a Time Warp or Exsanguinate as a win condition and focus everything else on disruption so that I am able to stabilize. Even with the amount of removal/counters I run, I still am unable to stop people from comboing off at times.
I would like to run more ramp in my list but in general I would rather run more lands than another ramp spell. I see that your list only runs 34 lands and I envy the space that creates but I need to hit every land drop. Also running a higher land density means that I can get more value out of my draw spells as I can simply dig for another land if I need to. A ramp spell isn't going to have that same effect as I can dig for it but then I have to invest mana into it to make it a land. This might be a reflection of my meta, I need to be doing more in the early game and I can't spend resources just ramping up because someone else will likely be winning the game. However, if you have any suggestions on what to cut I would be interested in hearing them.
Out:
3x Onslaught Cycle Lands
1x Life from the Loam
1x Intuition
1x Cabal Coffers
1x Pact of Negation
In:
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Pongify
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Force of Will
- I found that the cycle lands were encouraging me to just cycle them and miss land drops. I really hate the tempo loss from lands coming into play tapped so I am averse to actually playing them. I ended up having mana issues (primarily not having enough U) and I figured anything that encouraged me to miss land drops is not helping my deck.
- Crucible of Worlds allows me to easily recur my fetch lands and rewards me for running more basics as I put some in place of the cycle lands. This was replacing Life from the Loam. As good as Life is, I was just never generating card advantage with it. Some cards don't fit our playstyle and I am still not convinced that Life is that great in my build as I play out of my graveyard so little.
- Cabal Coffers became a basic swamp as that is what I needed most of the time. The deck doesn't really need big mana, even in the lategame, and if Coffers is drawn without Urborg it just slows the deck down far too much. I dislike being being unable to cast my spells and the deck simply doesn't need that much black. Keeping a card in because "having lots of mana can be good!" just isn't justification enough for me.
- Intuition became Pongify because I wasn't able to abuse it when I cast it. I like that Pongify is really cheap non-conditional spot removal. In EDH turning a Sun Titan or Consecrated Sphinx into a 3/3 is definitely a win. If I end up drawing too much removal I have also considered Preordain or Ponder for this slot.
- Pact of Negation turned back into Force of Will. Yes, FoW is card disadvantage but I found that the deck would rather lose card advantage than the big hit in tempo that you get from Pact. You can also hardcast FoW later in the game and then untap.
I'm at work, and although I have read most of the really really really long posts in this thread, I don't have time to even begin commenting on the comments. I will later. For now, I'd just like to say: No love for Rite of Replication??????? Seriously, kicked on a Consecrated Sphinx or a Primeval Titan is bananas, and totally epic, and worthy of the annals of EDH history.
love_blanket: I see you took out Exsanguinate. I understand that. A good spell that you could have replaced it with would have been Profane Command. Such amazing utility in one card. Kill someone, or kill a creature (I'm looking at you, Ulamog ಠ_ಠ), or rez a dude, or make some stuff fearsome (I've never actually used that one in a game). ****, why settle for one when you can do two of the four. Sweet.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
Yeah, I wanted to give credit where I felt it was due. My list has certainly changed quite a bit from the budget list where I started out!
Rite of Replication is certainly a haymaker. I have been playing lots of 1v1 lately and I think my list has evolved away from splashy, haymaker type cards. I would like to see how well my build does whenever I get to play some multiplayer again. I am wondering if the low-cost efficiency approach will leave me wishing I had big mana sinks or if I will be able to control the game more effectively because of it.
Profane Command certainly warrants some consideration. It is flexible enough. I just found that there are few things that I actually like tapping out for. Maybe Profane will be one of them. I also play my deck in a much more controlling style than most. Again, I will see how effective this is when I can play some multiplayer.
The deck is running really smoothly. The lower curve means that I have action at every step of the game.
Thank You Rivenor/Miraculous Recovery Studios!
GGGSKamahl's Band of Monstosities SGGG
RRRSFreaki-Kiki, The Goblin DoucheSRRR
BBGGNath, Raper of Hands and Spewer of Tokens!GGBB
BUGDamia, Sage of AnswersBUG
WIPs
BBBXiahou Dun, the Bitter Stax Enabling BastardBBB
On Break
BBBSKagemaro, First to RetireSBBB
BBBThe Walking DeadBBB
UUUSTeferi Combo PrimerSUUU
I personally consider to try the card in the slot of Recollect in my deck (-> utility with casting cost 3).
The graveyard-filling part of Forbidden Alchemy can be relevant in terms of virtual card-advantage, but this depends on the deck. Only practice will show the usefulness of the expensive flashback part, although a mana dump for the lategame is appreciated.
Otherwise a cantrip that digs four cards deep is a bit over the curve with casting cost 3, even at instant speed.
I am cautiously optimistic
I think it is certainly a strong card, but does not do enough to warrant a spot in my list as I don't utilize my graveyard that much. If you don't already run Ponder/Preordain/Impulse I would simply run one of those first. I just think that the deck has better one shot or recurring draw options available to it.
I am really excited for Snapcaster Mage as I currently have 32 targets for it, which is pretty amazing now that I count them up. I really like the versatility he gives you. Having a second Eternal Witness is just bonkers for this deck. Given that some of the best things the deck is doing involve casting spells this guy is a perfect fit. Plus the idea of reusing a Bribery or Tooth and Nail is pretty awesome. Even if you are just reusing a counter or removal spell you are getting really great value.
Any ideas on what to cut for Snapcaster?
I was thinking either Scroll Rack or Terastodon. Scroll Rack is awesome card manipulation but I have found that it can be inconsistent. Terastodon is splashy and powerful, but 8 mana is a lot and he is a wonderful Bribery target for your opponent. I am leaning toward Terastodon as I think the deck runs far more smoothly with a lower curve.
I have been thinking that Tezzeret the Seeker might be a good addition to the deck. I had him in a while back but took him out when I felt that space was getting tight.
Tezzeret can fetch ramp (Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Grim Monolith) or a suite of really useful artifacts (Oblivion Stone, Crucible of Worlds, Crystal Shard - especially good with Snapcaster). However we have no interest in using his ultimate and his +1 is of minimal value. Basically he will just come in and tutor an artifact or two into play and then die. He does tutor out cards that I want to see every game but may not be able to actually use a tutor spell on. Thoughts?
Eternal Witness #2 looks fun. I would probably take out the Don, since you said you play mostly 1v1 and need that lower curve.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
That is my thought as well. Again, there are a ton of targets in the deck for him and his flexibility is amazing. Terastodon is certainly a great card but I think more impressive things could fit in his place.
I swapped Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out for Maze of Ith as I really like the early game/political uses of Maze. Urborg is great when you also have Coffers, but after cutting that I am hard pressed to find a reason to continue running it. The deck has very few black spells and the amount of fixing available to it means that the one black you need is usually easy to obtain.
I have been thinking of trying Sower of Temptation out in the deck, but I don't know if it would simply be a worse Control Magic or if Treachery would be a stronger card in the same slot. Creature theft effects are certainly useful and having a second Gilded Drake would be nice. I will swap out Terastodon for Sower until I am able to acquire a Snapcaster Mage.Terastodon stays until until he can be replaced by Snapcaster Mage.I have also been thinking about trying out Nature's Claim but I don't know what I should swap it for. I really like Pongify as a one mana answer and I think Nature's Claim is a similarly powerful one mana spell. I keep getting tempted to cut down on the amount of card draw in my deck, but I think I am forgetting the games where that has really slowed me down. Overall, I think the deck could use more spot removal but I honestly don't know if I am playing competitive enough games for it to matter most of the time.
Mox Diamond is another solid card that I keep cutting from my list but again, I have trouble finding space for it. I don't really like cutting a land for it and most of my spells are more valuable as this point. Maybe Grim Monolith? I have been cutting my curve down and while Monolith can certainly power out an early Titan, Sphinx, or Damia that is usually when you want it the least because you are unable to protect it. Monolith has been very good for me in the past so maybe I just haven't drawn it in a while. I also might be overshadowing the times where you draw Mox Diamond and are unable to cast it or it immediately gets blown up.
Edit: Speaking of spot removal, I think the deck might really benefit from running more graveyard hate. I think Relic of Progenitus or Nihil Spellbomb might warrant consideration given how many decks play out of their graveyard. Bojuka Bog is great, but there have been times where I have to play it out before I can get full value out of it because I need the land. Having a second answer available to you seems really strong.
Snapcaster Mage looks promising. I count 31 sorcerys/instants in my deck. But on the other hand, only a few are worth the effort. I think the interaction with counterspells is his biggest strength and i can't estimate it's value at the moment. Targets like ramp, filter or tutors are middling. The problem in my deck: I don't play a dozen of instant-/sorcery-based removal. The Mage is much more potent in the opening post's decklist. I wonder how important is the fact, that it's so easy to recur Snapcaster Mage...
By the way, i have to ask about Crystal Shard and it's worth. I see the nasty interactions with some of your "enters the battlefield"-effects, including the Witness-Combo and Snapcaster Mage. But i can't imagine how often you target an opponent's creature, or save an own creature against removal. And is this card a dead draw in some situations? I only played Mimic Vat in the past and it was a funny card. But there were situations where it was very ineffective (especially on it's own) and i speculate that it can be compared to Crystal Shard in this case...
Nature's Claim... That's a though call. In my meta, powerful artifacts are often coupled with recursion-shenanigans, so this card would provoke a whole chain of investments on the opponent's table, while i would only pay 1 Mana...
I think you play a good bunch of removal, is another situational removal really necessary?
Nihil Spellbomb is amazing graveyard hate and a no-brainer, i think it's one of my favorite Trinket Mage-targets in the lategame hehe. Relic of Progenitus is playable in your deck, but i depend to much on my graveyard and don't like it. I played Phyrexian Furnace in the past, which is moderate. Tormod's Crypt can be mentioned, too...
I also tried creatures with graveyard hate (Withered Wretch, Scavenging Ooze), but they didn't satisfied me.
In my opinion the strongest graveyard-hate are counterspells like Dissipate
I played Tezzeret, but only in Multiplayer. And Planeswalker suck in my group... To quote Silver Seraph: "No planeswalker is worth it to deal with all the solemns, tribe elders, witnesses, and yavimaya elders in the world."
I also tried Fabricate in his spot, but i had not enough relevant targets. (i used it to grab Wurmcoil Engine, which was alarming)
I think Tezzeret is ok as an one-shot effect (especially in 1vs1), because he puts the artifact directly onto the battlefield...
@Terastodon: The Bribery-argument against this card is very important in my group. This is the point, where Woodfall Primus wins, because he is a bad Bribery-target, although he provides similar power. Nevertheless the manacost-argument applies to both creatures.
Yeah, we all fall prey to new card smell. I think Innistrad has some really interesting things for constructed that aren't immediately apparent.
I think spot removal is really really good and I have rarely been disappointed to draw it. I think people run far too many bombs in EDH. Bombs draw attention your way and you usually won't be able to protect them. Plus most bomby creatures are just going to die to a board wipe. Again, I don't really like turning dudes sideways so I tried to build a spell-based control deck. I will certainly test out Snapcaster Mage (once I can get my hands on one!) and see if he turns out to be as good as he seems.
I don't think I have ever really regretted drawing Crystal Shard as it is just such a strong card. It keeps your opponents from tapping out, acts as protection for your creatures, and comboes with any number of creatures in your deck to create a soft lock. I have won a couple of games by just having Venser, Shaper Savant and Crystal Shard. Again, so many decks focus so heavily on bombs that they run very few small, efficient spells. You can really punish decks like that by using something as mana intensive as Shard + Mystic Snake to shut them down. It is at its best with Seedborn Muse which I still think you should be running. That is certainly one of the top 5 green creatures in Commander and really shines in any control deck.
You are likely right. I think I am prone to getting carried away in my quest for efficiency. It is likely overkill, but it might warrant consideration in the future. It is the kind of card that I think is really good in a deck like this and people tend to overlook it for something with a more powerful effect, like Relic Crush. For example, I am running Pongify and it has always been something that I am glad to see.
Yeah, I really want to find space for another graveyard hate spell. Any ideas? I am currently questioning Scroll Rack and Terastodon the most. Maybe I will try cutting Scroll Rack for Relic.
I agree, I really think Tezzeret would just end up being win more. As much as I would like to see many of the artifacts that he would tutor for, I really don't think that I want to create deck space just to tutor for those artifacts.
Again, I don't like packing my deck with good Bribery targets. I know most people would grab Consecrated Sphinx or Primeval Titan instead, but I still don't like having him waiting to screw me over. Any suggestions on a creature to put in his place? I would really like a Snapcaster Mage to go there, but I don't know how long it will be before I can acquire one given that he is the really hot card from the new set. In the mean time I was thinking about running Reanimate in that slot instead. Reanimate can be a dead draw at times, but for a one mana investment I think it might be an interesting effect to try. I can nab one creature out of any graveyard and use it early in the game for value or late in the game to grab a bomb. The life loss is insignificant and it is a more permanent effect than Necromancy, Animate Dead, or Dance of the Dead.
Out:
In:
The order on each list roughly reflects what I swapped for what.
Explosive Vegetation and Scroll Rack were cut for Ponder and Preordain. Explosive Vegetation is card advantage, but costing four and only grabbing basics really limits it. At four mana, I really want to be doing something more. Scroll Rack is a fine card and wasn't terrible for me, it just wasn't great. Ponder and Preordain are both ways to smooth my draws and help me dig for the things I need. They also benefit from the increased amount of fetchlands.
Body Double became Reanimate because I would rather by 1 mana than 5 mana to get that effect. Reanimate is more permanent than Animate Dead and costs a single mana. Body Double is better in a few corner cases such as when I am at a low life total or Homeward Path is out, but overall I feel like those drawbacks are outweighed by the mana cost.
Terastodon became Nature's Claim because the Don is an awesome Bribery target and he simply costs too much. I like being able to have more effects per turn and Claim is really efficient, political removal.
I am trying Arcane Laboratory in place of Mana Reflection. As my curve dropped lower, I felt Mana Reflection just doesn't pull its weight. Arcane Laboratory is good in that it partially protects itself and allows you to lock out the table with quite a few cards in the deck. Including Arcane Laboratory as my "I win" card in the deck allowed me to swap out Time Warp. I was playing Time Warp as a way to say, "I have enough mana to recur this infinitely and unless you can disrupt me, I win". Laboratory allows a lock with more cards in the deck than Time Warp so it was an easy cut. Snapcaster Mage found his home there.
I cut Rhystic Study for Stifle more because I want Stifle than anything. Rhystic Study is a fine card but I have never really loved it. Stifle gives me another way to counter/interact with things that are already on the board at a very efficient mana cost. If Stifle proves to be good, maybe I will try to find space for Trickbind as well.
Tolaria West came in for Volrath's Stronghold as I don't think I activated Stronghold a single time that it was in the deck. Tolaria West allows me to tutor for a variety of useful things and it has the benefit of producing U mana which is what the deck needs the most. Urborg was swapped with Maze of Ith because I really missed having Maze to clog up the board. It is a great political card and gives me another awesome target for Vesuva. Urborg was mainly in for mana-fixing at this point and I don't know if the deck plays enough black to justify running it. If I am having problems hitting my black mana I might consider putting it back in.
But i would consider to eye Arcane Laboratory, because it feels clunky and Mana Reflection is in one league with Seedborn Muse...
I had some games yesterday and it was terrible. I played against Kaalia of the Vast, Tariel, Reckoner of Souls and Jhoira of the Ghitu. Kaalia and Tariel played a land destruction theme, combined with an heavy amount of artifact mana and taxing effects. To name some of the cards i saw: Armageddon, Ravages of War, Catastrophe, Decree of Annihilation, Impending Disaster, Ruination, Winter Orb,...
Kaalia won most of the games, what a freaking explosive general. Longer games were dominated by Jhoira, as it was impossible for me to counter all suspended cards alone.
After this shock, i reconsider to increase the artifact/land ramping in my deck significantly. Speed turned out to be superimportant in my new meta - so i will follow your path of lower costed effects.
Yeah, after thinking on it, I decided that Arcane Laboratory is a bit too clunky. Even though Time Warp is a more fragile win condition it involves few enough interactions that you can usually push it through, especially against players that don't run counter spells. I put Time Warp back in and swapped Nature's Claim for Crucible of Worlds. I think I really want to run both Crucible and Life from the Loam as ways to ensure that I hit my land drops. I think Nature's Claim might be overloading on removal a bit, especially when Snapcaster Mage is giving me a chance to flashback anything I use.
I recognize that Mana Reflection is really good but Crucible of Worlds is solid, small advantage. I am always happy to see Crucible, whereas many times I don't feel that I can cast Mana Reflection profitably. Also my curve has gotten so low that I don't feel that Mana Reflection is providing me that great of a benefit.
This is a good reason to run more spot removal. Sometimes you need to kill a general early on. Look at Beast Within or Pongify for example. Would you rather your opponent swing at you with Kaalia and a buddy or with a vanilla 3/3? I have been totally wrecked by land destruction and if that is your new meta, you might need to start running more artifact sources.
It is also another good argument for lowering your curve. Your creature based Genesis engine can be very powerful, but it is also very mana intensive. I am also getting to the point where the only things in my deck above four mana are important bombs:
I mean, how many bombs does your deck really need? I really only want to see these cards when I am ahead and can defend them. I can wait a while to draw them and in the mean time I am spending my resources defending myself and shaping the board.
You should post an updated version of your list when you get the chance!